www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Full Vespers at Annunciation

I think St Cyril and Methodius in Cary, NC has Vespers.

In Christ,
Anthony

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Even if we are not perfectly renewed and restored...I still love it.
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I am with you there Dan, you basically took the words right out of my mouth.

I was very proud of the Choir today, we received a lot of compliments. Thanks also to Musicam Sacrum for joining us, Tim is a magnificent choir director!

We have been blessed.

Michael

Do many Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes have veneration of the Cross at the end of Liturgy with antidoron? My parish doesn't and didn't have it for today's feast, which I found surprising.

In Christ,
Anthony

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I can only refer to what we did at Annunciation in Illinois.

I don't know how other parishes might do it,but during liturgy we had the elevation of the cross in four directions at the tetrapod (singing "Lord have Mercy" 24 times in each direction), then veneration (before communion). At the end of Liturgy we had a blessing with oil and antidoron, and this gave us another chance to venerate the cross.

PAX
Michael

The difficulty with restoring Vespers and Matins has many layers.

One is the lack of able cantors/singers who a) know how to sing the services and b) how to put them together. For most it is a daunting task. Knowing the services comes from years of training, practice and living the church's liturgical life. Ideally, living the liturgical life should be FIRST, but this is not always available to everyone.

Another problem is a mindset (found among clergy and laity alike) that sees anything aside from the Liturgy as "extra" instead of integral.

The stuggle to serve and to get people to participate in these services is found in both the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches. While a fair many Orthodox parishes have more than just Liturgy (as I believe was recently pointed out in another thread) often the other services are neglected and ill-attened. You may 100 at Liturgy, but 15-20 at Vespers, if that. These services are well attended in places where the clergy educate people to their importance and don't shut up until people start coming.

There are other historical factors, too, and some factors which are unique to the Byzantine Catholic churches, such as priest's serving more than one parish. I am sure this adds to the mix.

Now, aren't I good at pointing out problems? Sadly, I am not good at knowing solutions. I suppose there are many, and they are probably found with those who actually have gone through the process of restoration.

I pray that God bless any church that is beginning to have a more complete cycle of services. I also pray that God bless those few faithful who will be brave and pioneer the way in their parishes!

Dave

Dave, as usual you hit the nail on the head. One cannot know or love the services without a certain level of experience. It is an entirely different thing between reading some typikons and service books and then to getting up to lead a service whether you are priest, cantor, deacon, whatever. Unfortunately our Byzantine liturgical rubrics can occaisionally get a bit complicated at times (check out the recent thread on Vesper stikhera for the 21st :rolleyes: ) But that is not meant as a discouragement. Go for it, even if it means doing Reader's Services until it is established.

For most Greek Catholics, unless they have an exceptional Greek Catholic parish nearby to learn from they will have to get that experience from the OCA, ROCOR or other Orthodox church.

I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking a church that has Vespers (more should! ) but isn't two in the afternoon early for Vespers?

May I offer my own thoughts on the subject?

I must say I was very happy to read that there is a movement to restore more proper services in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The reduction of everything to the Divine Liturgy is quite problematic and there's no need to go into the "why's" and "how's" of that. Those who really know the Byzantine rite know why.

While I agree with other posters who acknowledged the daunting task of restoring Vespers, Matins, and the other magnificent services of our heritage, I would also like to point out two things. First, at least in the Byzantine Catholic Church, you have a wonderful resource in Professor Thompson. His settings never fail in the marriage of the English words and music and his work, prolific. Make use of him.

But the second point is more important. While there are other barriers that are hard to define and combat (mostly ignorance), the pastors of the churches need only start. Just begin. Prepare the service with your chanters and simply schedule it. Don't worry what people say - just do the proper thing. Have the text (and if possible, music) available for everyone. A bit of education, biting your lip, and faith, go a long way.

I can tell you from experience that you will never be disappointed when, to your surprise, you serve an akathist or moleben, or daily vespers, and people actually respond. They sing, they come, and most importantly, God is worshippped. Even if the attendance is poor (according to our standards) that is no reason to stop. Simply have the service and eventually, those who desire Christ will respond. Those who don't will never respond, no matter what you do.

Our services are a bit complex, but they're not *that* complex. There is abundance of material out there to help with the various stichiri and hymns of the octoechos, menaion, pentecostarion, etc... It's all there, waiting for us to use it. In fact, we do our people a tremendous *disservice* when we do not offer these beautiful opportunities for worship. In all of it, God will be glorified and the parish will be strengthened.

Priest Thomas Soroka

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

Yes, a most "Orthodox" post!

Once people are exposed to the beauty of our liturgical services, they will get "hooked."

They will not know if they are in heaven or on earth.

I used to think the services were too long.

Now I wouldn't mind an akathist tacked onto the end . . .

And I think this site has done a wonderful job with akathists:

http://akafist.narod.ru

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Your humble and sinful servant,

Alex

May the Lord God bless you.

Last year, we were doing our usual round of Akathists during the Great Fast (we also do some throughout the year) and I decided I was tired of just reading the verses and then the people sang the "refrain" in between. That's just not the way Russians do it! They sing the entire thing! And there are several Akathist melodies that work great, as long as the number of phrases is correct (it isn't always, which is curious).

Anyway, I learned a good melody, printed up a booklet (I think it was for St. Nicholas, appropriately) came out of the deacon's door at 7 pm, didn't start the service, but took five minutes before the service to teach them! I sang the melody, then I had them sing the first Ikos as a "rehearsal" right in church. It worked! And they sang it. They *all* sang it and loved it.

A little preparation and bravery goes a long way...

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father!

I would love to learn to sing akathists that way!

Bless you for your zeal for God's glory!

Alex

The Pochaiv Akathist melody can be adapted for nearly all texts of the Akathist that have the verses of 'Rejoice' in multiples of two.

We even used this melody for Psalm 33 at Vespers for the Nativity of the Theotokos last weekend and everyone picked right up on it, being familiar with this Akathist melody from the Fridays of the Great Fast and other celebrations of Akathists.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In reference to Fr. Thomas Soroka's comments about teaching the people the Akathist melody:

On Aug. 14, the Ambrose-Romanos Singers led the faithful gathered at Holy Ghost Byz. Cath. Church in Charleroi in singing the Great Vespers of the Dormition of the Theotokos. As many of you know, the stichera at the Lamp-lighting Psalms on that feast are supposed to be sung to a samopodoben in Tone One called "O divnoje chudo" (i.e., " O marvelous wonder!"). It is not the simplest melody in the Prostopinije, but it is one of the lovliest. When it is used on August 15, the last three lines of each sticheron ARE THE SAME TEXT, and (in effect) become a refrain to the sticheron. I took several minutes before the beginning of Great Vespers to teach the melody of the last three lines to the faithful gathered there. They got to sing it eight times during the Lamplighting Psalms. THEY GOT IT, and they sang it with vigor.

Sometimes, it just takes a "teachable moment" to make a lot of headway.

Glory to God for all things!

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Yes, I heard this melody in Russia at Vigil, and heard it again in English when I was in Las Vegas a few months ago for the evangelism conference. It's quite nice.

PT

Dear Diak,

Is that the Akathist to the Pochaiv Mother of God that refers to Catholics as "heretics?"

I like to think it refers to Protestants only . . .

Alex