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Hi,

I am new here but I have been reading the post for sometime now. I am a Catholic who is interested in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

My question is this:
Is the Eastern Catholic Church stricter on the way they conduct their masses than the Latin Church? What I mean is this wouldyou likely find things like Clown Masses: http://www.tradcath.com/www/images/clown.jpg or liturgical dancing in the Mass? What about Eucharist ministers do you guys have them?

We don't do Masses in the Eastern Churches. We celbrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil. And they are quite differant to what you are accustomed to in the Latin Church.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Alabama, eh? Is there even a Byzantine Church down there among all dem Baptists!!

The Liturgy follows a predictable pattern which is set forth in a book of liturgical rule called the Typicon. There is a small amount of variance involved with Liturgies held on special Feast Days. This variance involves the prayers offered during the Liturgy.

There is an allowance for special Eucharistic ministers, but there MUST be a darn good reason. We have two at St. Ann's, but only use them when the church is full. Fr. Mike's legs very painful and he just cannot serve the whole church as he used to when a young man.

The special Eucharistic ministers are men only. We do not allow for women at the altar in any capacity. They are not allowed behind the iconostasis.

I really SERIOUSLY doubt that you will see new innovations in the Liturgy of the Byzantine Church. Expect what has always been.

Brother Ed

Too late! The Ruthenians have had Eucharistic ministers for years before it was allowed under canon law; some parishes have had altar girls since before the Latin Church allowed it. Even when that happened and our bishops explicity said "this decision does not apply to us", some parishes still have them. What's more, some parishes have introduced girl "acolytes" who vest the same as the altar boys, carry candles, the censer, etc., process with the clergy & servers during the Entrances, but do not enter the sanctuary.

The Ukrainians in the USA have altar girls as a matter of course. Their altar server convocation last year had almost as many girls as boys.

Altar Boy, I say this with love, but I seriously expect that you will be a member of ROCOR within a year. I hope not--you sound like a wonderful addition to our Church. But some of your pronouncements here I've seen before from others who were Byzantine Catholic for about 1-2 years and then became Orthodox, and they became disillusioned and hopped to progressively more strict ("traditional") jurisdictions and some of them eventually lost their faith entirely or became "Jews for Jesus" or something like that.

Welcome Catholic_Man,

It is nice to have another Alabamian onboard. Where are you, we are in Irondale.

Rose

Oops, sorry just realized I posted on my husbands message thing

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: Stushu ]

Catholic man, vitaemo (welcome). The particular law for the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the USA specifically states that only boys may be altar servers. This is the law for all eparchies in the USA. As you know, the law isn't always enforced the same way everywhere.

All of the priests in the deanery (regional area) that my Ukrainian Catholic parish is in all strictly enforce the rule of no altar girls. I don't know if that's because we are in the Midwest where we just don't take too kindly to that newfangled stuff, becuase we have some priests who come from Ukraine where that practice is generally unheard of, or what the reason is.

On the positive side, perhaps you could get involved in your parish and someday assist at the altar! A few good people and families can transform parishes, I've seen it myself.

[ 09-10-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Altar Boy, I say this with love, but I seriously expect that you will be a member of ROCOR within a year.

Ouch!!! Within a YEAR? Gosh, I would hope that the transistion would take a least a bit longer than that. Makes me sound like a mere "church hopper" rather than someone seeking truth. Eeeeeeeeeeeeuuuuwwwwww!!

I hope not--you sound like a wonderful addition to our Church.

You probably wouldn't say that if you knew me better. I think I've been more of a headache than a blessing. I realize that I am still considerably infected with a deep strain of Protestant mindset and worldview, along with a terrible tendency for perfectionism (which is a sickness in anyone possessed by it!!).

But some of your pronouncements here I've seen before from others who were Byzantine Catholic for about 1-2 years and then became Orthodox,

Izzat so bad?

and they became disillusioned and hopped to progressively more strict ("traditional") jurisdictions and some of them eventually lost their faith entirely or became "Jews for Jesus" or something like that.

Now THAT IS bad!!

Honestly, I was thinking about some of the things I was spouting off last week and realized that I probably went over the line. It occurred to me as I was thinking of some of these issues that our Lord was more faithfully ministered to by women than by men.

I think that I would do well to spend a year in a Thomist monastary with my mouth shut and my ears and heart open. :rolleyes:

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Dear Brother Ed,

For what it's worth, we Ukie Catholics have priests and faithful that are more Orthodox than the Orthodox.

One friend I have is so "Orthodox" that he gets under the skin of the Orthodox.

You just can't tell where the good guys are any more .

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

As an example: at St. Nicholas of Myra Byzantine Catholic Church many years ago Liturgy was said facing the people; this has since changed and the Church has removed these Novus Ordo latinizations or abuses. Many of our Churches are infected with various aspects of Novus Ordoisms and abuses, but it must be noted these are ABUSES. Some Byzantine Catholic Churches look like traditional Roman Rite Churches, some like authentic Orthodox temples, some like Novus Ordo Churches, some in between and a mix of all these. Each Church has its own politics and it is up to the pastor to help the parish toward the ideal of restoration of our traditions. In our Eparchy of Van Nuys I would dare any priest to put a girl in the Altar to serve the Divine Liturgy! It would not be pretty! If you remember the old vampire and werewolf movies were the Slavic people get the pitchforks and torches....I think you get the point. If I was in a Byzantine parish that had female "altar girls" God help the priest. He would need to find a one way ticket to timbuktoo really fast When you are catechized by a priest like Father Steve Greskowiak you have zero tolerance for such phenomena. Many Years to him! He was such a awesome example of Orthodoxy in our Carpatho-Rusyn Church.

So yeah this altar girl stuff is pure loopy trash. Get over it.

In Christ,


Robert

Brother Robert --

Ahhhhhh, thank you for your post. I was beginning to think that I was the only redneck Byz for miles around who believes that the girls have other roles than to be at the altar.

You know, the sad thing about feminism is that it has taken the role of the mother, which is a very important role that a man cannot fulfill, and have made it to be seemed as if it is akin to serving time in a Soviet gulag. Nothing is more wonderful than a godly wife and mother. The man who has such treasure is blessed beyond words. Yet young girls are in many many places, even the Church (sad to say) being taught that such a position and responsibility somehow makes them inferior, when nothing could be further from the truth!

Brother Ed

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I viewed with horror the link posted which showed a "clown mass." My first thought is "what a mockery some parishes/priests are making of the Divine Sacrifice. I think things like this add to the disrespect which is prevailent in many a Latin congregations today. Vatican II, I feel, was in many ways a "mixed blessing" so to speak. Once the reverence of the Liturgy has been removed, scandel is sure to follow. I thank God everyday that I am Eastern.
Lord have mercy on us!!

Dan
Archsinner

If you read the Documents of the Second Vatican Council, you will see that they NEVER mantion anything about such abuses to the Liturgy- these are excesses which the Bishop in that Diocese should handle and remove.
But don't lump Vatican II in with these strange happenings.

Shlomo Joe,
Just one point not all Eastern Catholic Churches celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom either. Only the Byzantines do. Those of us who belong to the Antiochene-Edessan, Alexandrian, or Armenian use are own particular Liturgies.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon,

Could you please tell me what "Poosh Bashlomo" means? I've heard it before, but never knew what it meant. And what are some good resources (books, tapes, etc.) to learn Antiochene Syriac, as opposed to the East Syriac language used by the Chaldeans?

The point about particular Eastern Christian churches celebrating liturgies other than those of the Byzantine Rite (Chrysostom & Basil) is well taken. In fairness to our illustrious photographer and friend, Joe Prokopchak however, it is a very common oversight among us, to mix the terms "Eastern" and "Byzantine" and use them simultaneously. It is of our own doing that we make this generalization and those of us in the church normally know what we are referring to. For the sake of those here of Roman Catholic or other traditions, it is good that we have clarified the matter.

In reality, the two terms are not synonymous but rather, in a Christian sense, the first is a general term for all churches considered to be of Eastern origin, (basically from the Eastern part of the then Roman Empire) while the second, is specific to one particular ritual tradition, that of the Church of Constantinople.

That the Byzantine Rite was the ritual used by the emperor and in the imperial city for over 1,000 years, and its subsequent expansion of throughout much of Central and Eastern Europe, is a large part of the reason for what could be seen as "byzantine chauvinism," when it comes to lumping the churches of the East together in this way.

Fr. Joe