www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization pinch - pinch - pinch

Dear Administrator,

Over here! Hey, the guy with the glasses and the three-Bar Cross, do you see me?

And why would we want to "Byzantinize" all of North America, pray ask?

Are we to view Roman Catholics and pious Protestants as "pagans" ripe for evangelization (perhaps some of them are . . .)?

Rather than numbers, how about we have a good, strong presence here.

Even the Antiochian Orthodox Church has had the foresight to establish Western Rites for former Anglicans and RC's, including a mission to the "Evangelical Orthodox" and quite possibly a forthcoming rite for former Lutherans.

We are not called, I don't think, to make Byzantines of North Americans, Sir!

I believe we are called to witness to Christ from within our unique theological perspective.

This will, hopefully, revive faith among those who have either lost it, never had it, or need more of it.

Some will join us, but I daresay others will return to their churches, including the RC Church to be better committed Christians.

I personally would not want to try and convert a pious RC over to the BC's.

Nor would I want you to join the Ukrainian Catholic Church (I'm dealing with enough pain already ).

I think we are a way off from having a native American Eastern Church.

Being Eastern is still a locational/cultural issue, even when we've de-ethnicized.

The day when North American Anglo-Saxons see the Eastern onion dome with the three bar Cross as part of the mainstream will be the day when we can hope to be deluged with converts and other joiners.

But even with English-only liturgies and free tickets to baseball games after the Liturgy - the Eastern Churches are still spiritual foreigners in North America.

Alex

Because it would be silly for us Byzantines to evangelize the unchurched North Americans to be Roman Catholic.

Roman Catholics and other Orthodox are our equals. One does not evangelize others who are already one with us.

Protestants do not hold the fullness of the Gospel. We are to witness Christ in such a way they what they see in us will cause them to choose to join us. In that way they will obtain the fullness of the Gospel. [Yes, I would like to see every Protestant Church dwindle as their people become Byzantine Catholic.]

But the people I am speaking about are those North Americans who do not really know Christ. These are the people with no formal religion as well as those who are only culturally Christian (the ones with no personal faith relationship with Jesus Christ). These are the people we are to invite to join us in following Christ so that they may be saved. We are to welcome them into our parishes,to make a home with us. If the historic parish ethnicity interferes with hospitality (to the point where newcomers do not feel at home with us) then we need to adapt. We must also realize (and welcome) that as new parishes spring up there will be few ethnic Slavs (or Greeks or Arabs) in them. It would be wrong to expect a new parish to be anything but pancultural, depending on the peoples that join.

Such a statement is a death sentence to Byzantine Christianity in North America.

Yes. And this is because we have not presented Byzantine Christianity to North America in a language it understands. We have kept our light under a basket made of ethnicity. Our Light needs to shine.

Dear Administrator,

No death sentences please!

You know I don't like talking about myself, but circumstances here force me too . . .

I'm heartened that God has used me to bring others to Christ and to His Church.

Sometimes they return to their Roman Catholic roots and I've no wish to "Byzantinize" them.

Besides, Rome would not really allow it anyway - do you deny that Rome sees Western-area converts as automatic Latin Church members? We know they do.

But you yourself, Sir, said that the our relationship with Christ is about faith, not perogies.

I will go one step further and say that it is also about Church - irrespective of which Church it is, Latin, Byzantine, Coptic, what have you.

And I've met many pious Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists, even some monastics within those traditions - sorry, but I wouldn't dream of considering their life of Grace to be inferior to those of Catholics and Orthodox, much as we might like to think that it is.

The real death sentence that looms over us, Sir, is, I believe, the death sentence of assimilation.

Could it be that your view, and I'm only positing the question, of amalgamating everyone under one jurisdictional (and ultimately cultural, but you'll disagree) roof simply a way of hastening the day that sentence's execution?

Can there be other, dynamic ways of achieving your vision?

Alex

gtJC!!

yes - 67 a very small batch. Guess what... after us workerbeeeezzz (go ahead and run spell check on that on for me will you) there are now only 44 available for sale.

Dear Admin, to make up for making you hungry homer style - here is my latest personal yummy little ol' experiment in baking...

Fasting bread loaf 07-20-04
Bread man II � cycle 7 (time 3:25 fruit & nut cycle)

1 � - 1 1/3 C. water � plain old muni tap water � but PUR or Brita etc, filtered (do NOT use bottled water)
� teaspoon organic vanilla extract

3 C. Unbleached Organic flour from Mothers or Whole Foods Market Bulk bins
� C. rolled oats from Mothers or Whole Foods Market Bulk bins
1 Tbsp. KAL Xlitol (a nutritional supplement � also a sweetener)
2 Tbsp. Vons powdered sugar
� teaspoon Hain sea salt
1 teaspoon Bob�s Redmill active dry yeast

1 small organic green bell pepper sliced 3/8� x 1 �� pieces. roasted in a non-stick wok � NO OIL
� small or 1/3 med yellow organic onion chopped in 1� pieces. roasted in a non-stick wok � NO OIL
� teaspoon fennel seeds

begin:
� add water & vanilla to machine
� sprinkle flour and rolled oats to cover water completely
� add sweeteners (yeast feeders) and salt (yeast stabilizer) in separate corners
� make a shallow indentation in the center of the flour and add yeast
� press start
� vegetables: chop, roast, cool, and dry off excess moisture. (Should be almost a small cereal bowl full.)
� add the vegetables 5 min before end of kneading cycle

notes:
� During kneading cycle, use a wooden spoon to turn the dough and the bell peppers to incorporate as needed - due to their slick skin some pieces just congregate to the corners of the pan.
� During last 1� hour of time remaining, check on and pierce the sticky dough with knife as needed to allow gas to escape and keep dough level and from possibly overflowing container. At least do this one time � just before the baking cycle begins (i.e. 1 hour before end of bread cycle).
� Time on bread machine is needed � do not use a shorter cycle � even if not adding fruits/vegetables, otherwise you will have a very dense and probably gummy loaf.

Take bread out of pan as soon as the baking cycle is over. Place on a perforated pizza cooking sheet or a wire cooling rack and in a 100 degree oven. Turn oven off. Let bread slow cool a couple hours to overnight.

This does make a full loaf in spite of only 3 C. flour. The powdered sugar (which is a dextrose or glucose and cornstarch combination) and the Xylitol feed the yeast in a way that allows nice gluten stranding without adding lemon juice, malt or dough conditioners. The chemical properties and structure in granulated sugar (cane sugar is sucrose) may not work sufficiently in this recipe.

This loaf has a very light texture, and a soft chewy crumb.

Allowable substitutions that still impart similar textured loaf:
1. Xylitol � you may delete or use � Tbs. powdered sugar, or even use scant � tsp. Stevia extract
2. fruit � any. However, cut down on quantity to about � cup total (due to the natural fructose sugars).
3. herbs, seeds, and spices � any up to 1 tsp. total

[my first run with this was with raisins and a spice called mace] absolutely perfect - like a mock rum/raisin. This is the type of stuff I bring to the coffee social - b/c not everyone wants doughnuts -


or how about my left over no-meat pizza

No meat Pizza recipe

from the UGHHHHH it�s Saturday night, and I didn�t defrost the chicken ooohhh I really don�t want to go to the grocery store � wonder if I can just use up this weeks veggies for pizza.

Preheat oven to 350�

Here are my ingredients layered in this order from the bottom up:
� Musso�s Schiacciata �Skeya-cha-ta� Pizza crust (bigger an� cheaper than buboli)
� Garlic, basil, & chunky tomato style pasta sauce
� Minced garlic (yes - from a jar)
� Shredded carrots
� Diced green onions
� Thinly sliced Egg plant tossed with Olive oil and a little salt
� Fresh crumbled Organic Feta cheese
� Fresh grated Parmesan cheese

Bake in preheated oven (350�) for about 15 min.

When I devised this recipe for pizza, I didn't have patience to make my own crust, but my home made pizza crust is much better - sorry no recipe it's done by handfulls like grandma taught me (same as my apple pie crust).

BON-APPETITE (someone please run spell check for me again )


must run along - being BOOTED off the 'puter.
toodles & God bless, sUSAn

Is this an acceptable reason not to share Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Gospel with them? We have plenty of people who are former Protestants who have come into the Byzantine Church. A few even like holupki! That Rome�s current cannons still direct Protestants to the Latin Church is not really an obstacle. Is mere paperwork.

Yes, there are many people who do not hold the fullness of the faith who are actually better Christians than we are. Still, the Church commands that we bring all people into the Church since we alone hold the fullness of the Gospel.

Assimilation will occur whether you like it or not. Since 1990 your own Ukrainian Catholic Diocese of Toronto has lost 53% of its members. More people who were baptized in the various Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) now worship in Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches than worship in Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox). You can either build Byzantine parishes where differing ethnic groups can worship together or you can watch your Church die. You have no other option expect to continue importing large numbers Ukrainians from Ukraine on a regular basis until the Second Coming. But as Ukraine recovers and grows, taking its place in the European community, fewer and fewer will come to North America.

Susan,

Your recipies are only succeding in making me more and more hungry!

Admin

Administrator wrote:

Yes. And this is because we have not presented Byzantine Christianity to North America in a language it understands. We have kept our light under a basket made of ethnicity. Our Light needs to shine.

See here you are also speaking to a former Southern Baptist. I mean raised in rural southern towns, eating southern cooking. I had never even heard a Polish name until I went in the Air Force and then I married into one .

Do you really think I had any fore knowledge of how to speak Polish, Slavonic, Greek, or Arabic? Never heard of those before either. But, when God moves on your heart and moves you into his world in a new way, you just go with the flow trusting that he will get you to where he wants you to be.

It is true we are the best kept secret around. Maybe that is because it was so ethenic. But, God is doing a new thing. You have a Melkite Church(I believe that is the one) in Chicago saying the Divine Liturgy in Spanish. Sounds to me like they have gone past their comfort zone to help make it easier for many to understand.

What we need are people willing to stand at the doors and shake someones hand as they enter, and then someone who is willing to have them sit with them and help them through what is happening. Someone to make sure they come downstairs afterwards for coffee and... That is how we make our chruches more open to folks. It isn't the language barrier.

A Protestant friend of our oldest son came to church with him several times. Afterwards he said,I have you folks all figured out. He said you are about the mystery of God and respect. A pretty astute observation. But, because of that he can worship with us. Language is not the barrier, man is.

Pani Rose

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Hey Alex, that white KLOBUK looks FABU on you!!!

mark

Dear Admin:

A "Ukrainian Catholic" parish is, like it or not, "Ukrainian" in its outlook.

Therefore, accepting your claims of massive assimilation, the "Ukrainian Church" as such in North America is destined to die one way or the other.

So, the question becomes, why bother with dragging us into your ethnically-neutral fold kicking and screaming?

You yourself admit that many who leave the fold of the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches in North America turn to the RC's or to the Protestants.

Don't you think that if the 52% who have left the Toronto eparchy wanted to find an ethnically-neutral Byzantine Rite parish they would have sought you or the OCA out already?

The fact remains that being "Ukrainian" in North America equates to being of the Byzantine Rite and vice versa. Take away one and the other inevitably goes with it. Good, bad or indifferent, that's the perception.

In short, why not just let us die away slowly one by one? Eventually, the last Ukrainian parish here will close its doors and, according to your model, your church will be the last one standing.

Why deprive us poor stragglers who live in a state of percieved perpetual immigration of that kernal of happiness (and, in some cases, familial legacy) that comes with jurisdictional ties to Kyiv?

Might as well save yourselves the headache.

Yours,

hal

Does anyone have any idea how many have left the Byzantine Catholic Churches to become Orthodox? Most people that I am aware of who have left the Byzantine Church have become Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.

Dear Administrator,

Hal is quite right.

I share your concerns, Sir, but I disagree with your options.

Assimilation will occur, yes, and it is not ONLY occurring along the ethnic language/cultural identity scale.

It is, as Hal points out, also occurring on the religious scale - people leave the Eastern Church not only because of language and cultural barriers, but ALSO because they want to attend a more MAINSTREAM church that doesn't have cupolas, censors and bearded priests et al.

I know this because I have family members who have left our Eastern Church complaining not about the language or culture - but about the cupolas.

When my cousin was dying of cancer (and he died at the age of 40), he told us that he wanted to be buried by a RC priest, not a Byzantine priest.

He did not, he said, want one of our priests to "wave a censor" over him with all that silly chanting and words to that effect, I don't need to repeat them.

Assimilation as we are discussing involves MORE than language and culture. It involves our cupolas, long services, beards and other things that people wanting to become more like the mainstream prefer to go without.

We too have Protestant converts and RC Tridentine refugees escaping the Novus Ordo et al.

And my point is that the issue of cultural barrier does not END with your proposal to prevent ethnicity from being a "barrier" to membership.

The mainstream here see the entire Byzantine religious culture as part and parcel of a foreign cultural enterprise - something you have repeatedly refused to seriously address in your discussion of your vision for a united Byzantine jurisdiction.

And I think it is crucial to your argument - why won't you take it seriously and discuss it?

I think that there is another dynamic at work in the Orthodox Churches that bears discussing, perhaps it is because the Orthodox Church has no tie to a larger Western church and spiritual culture where no ready comparisons can be made by those wanting to become "mainstream" - I'd have to think about it more.

Frankly, by equating ethnicity simply with its externalities and refusing to see the "ethnicity" of the Byzantine spiritual culture in North America - you do your own cause no good, Sir!

And there you go talking about food again!

I read on another thread about Incognitus' chocolate recipe.

I thought he was beginning a thread on law since he mentioned "torte!"

Hal and I have you pinned down on this point, Sir.

Let's see you get yourself out of this one.

(Father Deacon Montalvo - why leave this Forum indeed! Isn't this fun? Albeit at the Administrator's expense! )

Alex

The Byzantines in America should be ethnically AMERICAN! Let's fill the halls with cheeseburgers with fries, coke, pizza, nachos with cheese, hot dogs, steak with baked potatoes and cotton candy!!! And a bottle of tums to go with it!

Dear SPDundas,

Every time I think of the Administrator's unified Byzantine scheme, I reach for a bottle of TUMS!

Keep the fries and burgers!

But the point is that a mainstream American is more likely to feel culturally at home in a Western Church.

Until the Administrator addresses this issue seriously and without his usual dismissive tone towards "ethnic foods and ways," this will continue to be an intellectual argument that will go nowhere.

Alex

Back to Perogi's. Now Stop it!
Im on the South Beach Diet and it isnt allowed.
Stephanos I

Dear Administrator, Alex, et al,

Would you accept my proposition that the "mainstream" American is not comfortable or "at home" in ANY church or Church?

The longer I deal with the public in my daily contact with people reacting to death, the more I am convinced of this fact than anything else.

Five and a half years ago, our professional organization told us that the results of our own internal surveys of people we deal with indicated that almost 60% had no religious preference or affiliation. My favorite anecdote in the last two years is the question by one not-so-young person during a funeral service: the child asked his parent in a very loud voice "what's the Bible"?

In Christ,

BOB