www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization pinch - pinch - pinch

Yes! Back to pyrohy, pirohi, pierogie or other ethnic way of saying small dough wrapped mashed vegetable or meat or cheese and cooked in every which way imaginable.

Must every thought of pirohi, pyrohy- or kielbasa, kolbasi, halushki, halubki etc, be a starting point for online spell checkers and the ethnic vs anti ethnic vs pan ethnic posts? Enjoy the variety.

I once came across an article on how many different ways one can make stuffed cabbage (halupki{and it's variants}). Seems there are more than 120!!! Almost any continent has some variety of making an edible dish from cabbage.

As one might guess, there are as many ways of stuffing dough.

I like them regardless of how they are spelled or pronounced, Just make them right.

Just my most insignificant view on this.......

back to lurking....and thinking I might cook some pierogies I have in the freezer...MMMMmm

Steve

I feel left out...all this talk of pierogies and kielbasa being a part of Eastern Christianity ...there are some of us here whose Eastern Christianity involves souvlaki and spanakopita! hehehehe! :rolleyes:

Alice

The mainstream sees the entire Byzantine religious culture as part and parcel of a foreign cultural enterprise only because Byzantines have hidden the religious culture underneath a cloak of ethnicity. If we remove the cloak of ethnicity and allow the Light of Christ to shine through the Byzantine lens we can indeed win many unchurched people in North America to Christ.

Look at the cultural barriers that Saints Cyril & Methodius faced. When they headed north to the Slavic lands did they insist on taking souvlaki and spanakopita (as delicious as they are)? No! They studied the Khazar�s culture and language and presented Christ to them in a way they could understand and transformed the Khazars. They were so successful that Rastislav, Prince of Moravia, asked the Byzantine Emperor Michael I for missionaries to come to his country to teach them. Again they were successful and brought Christ and the Byzantine Christian Life to Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, Moravia and the peoples in and around the Carpathian Mountains. They didn't turn these Slavs into ethnic Greeks. They merely baptized the Slavic culture and let it grow.

But those German missionaries, you see, didn�t like this one bit! They said that the Slavs should be assimilated into the larger, growing Germanic culture of central Europe (resistance is futile, you know). That Greek form of Christianity was all fine and well for Greeks, but Slavs should choose a mainstream religion and mainstream was Latin Catholicism (if only these Slavs were smart enough to understand this). Those Slavs didn�t need an alphabet. Just have the missionaries teach them Latin and German so that they can be absorbed into the dominant western European culture. That Greek religious culture is part and parcel of a foreign cultural enterprise. No need for it here in central and eastern Europe. The Slavs didn�t need a religious culture with long services, funny chant, and a requirement that Christians bathe every year. They need mainstream European culture! But Saints Cyril & Methodius felt that Byzantine Christianity could not only lead the Slavs to Christ but that the Slavs would take Byzantine Christianity and make it their own.

Yes, the tale is a bit over-the-top but it makes the point I want. Where would the Slavs be if SS Cyril and Methodius thought them to be too different? Where would the Slavs be if SS Cyril and Methodius thought that the language and cultural barriers, together with the idea that Latin Christianity (which was the growing mainstream religion of Europe) were all too difficult for Slavs?

Byzantine Christianity can transform North America. I�ve seen vibrant Byzantine Christian parishes (mostly Orthodox) that are attracting the people you consider to be so bland. They are becoming wonderful Byzantine Christians. Yes, they are not Slavic and never will be Slavic. But why should anyone care?

Dear Bob,

Very good point!

But I think the main reason Americans don't like onion domes is because they don't like onions period!

If you are arguing that mainstream America is uncouthed, uncultured, ignorant of world affairs and sees all it needs of religion on the television early Sunday morning, then you've no argument from me!

I think the way the USA treated Orthodox Serbia and continues to treat it by proxy through the UN "peacekeeping" force there shows the way the US in general views the Eastern Churches.

The Administrator will not be happy with me (again) on this, but I think he is imposing his own deeply-held beliefs and understandings of spiritual culture on the US mainstream that is simply incapable of comprehending it.

But enough from me for one day, don't you think?

Alex

Dear Administrator,

Yes, you are right - but I think within Orthodoxy there is another dynamic at work altogether that is NOT comparable to Byzantine Catholicism.

For one thing, Orthodoxy is a "stand alone" Church and faith.

Byzantine Catholics have all sorts of bad historical baggage built into their psychology through years of nasty relations with Rome ie. married priests, jurisdictional issues, Latinization - you name it and there are probably several threads on it on this forum.

Orthodoxy does not have a "second-class" mentality outlook and makes no apologies for anything.

In addition, to what extent are American converts to Orthodoxy (and also to Eastern Catholicism) running away from something rather than coming TO something that's new.

In our parish we have many Roman Catholics who attend Sunday Liturgy regularly, but who remain Roman Catholic in spiritual outlook etc.

In fact, in talking to them, one gets the sense that they are indeed refugees from a Latin Church that they feel they can no longer relate to.

It all has precious little to do with Christ and evangelism, but with other issues. And I'm not saying those issues aren't valid, only that I fail to see the connection in this respect with Sts Cyril and Methodius.

There is every need for an American Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Church and every right for it to be established.

I'd have to think about it more, but I think that Orthodoxy is much better positioned as a Church to be that American Church than our Eastern Catholic Churches are.

In fact, the more "Orthodox" an Eastern Catholic becomes, the more likelihood that he or she will, at some point, "Dox" or become Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome.

And again, this has nothing to do with evangelization, but with finding the right Church to worship in, that's more traditional, that's this or that.

It is about Christians who are Christians already, and probably very zealous Christians, who are moving away from their mainstream Churches toward Orthodoxy that they feel have betrayed the Gospel, the historic liturgical traditions and the like.

And that, too, will be a death sentence for Eastern Catholicism in North America, my dear Sir.

I've read many statements of congratulation here on this forum to those who have "doxed" out of conscience.

The fact is that they have left the Eastern Catholic Churches and this means that something is wrong that we perhaps aren't addressing.

And, at that point, it has precious little to do with ethnic exclusivity, culture, languages and the like.

Finally, Sir, you continue to refuse to consider the CULTURAL aspect of Byzantine Christianity.

No one is forcing you to if you don't want to.

But I think that you yourself have put your finger on what is perhaps THE most crucial aspect of this entire discussion - and it is perhaps because of that that you would rather not face it head-on.

That is fine. But it leaves a great big gap in your argument that I feel should be addressed.

Alex

Skip back a thousand years:

Those Greek Monks, Cyril & Methodius are imposing their own deeply-held beliefs and understandings of spiritual culture on the Slavs, who are simply incapable of comprehending it.

This is nothing more than a cop out.

I can do all thing through Christ, who gives me strength. (Phil 4:13)

Funny how Susie's pinch pinch pinch gets into such a deep discussion

Dear Administrator,

Your refusal to deal with serious questions in a serious way is really not edifying at all.

Either you want to engage in a serious discussion of these issues, or you don't.

Your "cop out" comment is the ULTIMATE copping out.

You are just afraid that your "one Byzantine jurisdiction" ideology may have some of its kinks exposed in such a discussion which is why you refuse to enter into it and prefer, instead, to punch holes in things I've said.

That's really not your style, Administrator, and I'm sorry that, on this score, you seem to have taken on a strident attitude that does not become you.

What I'm asking is not unreasonable, Sir.

Your rebuff to me by way of response certainly is.

When you are ready to take this issue seriously, as it affects the future of our Church, just give a holler!

Alex

Dear Admin:

That's the whole point. We DON'T care. In fact, if you can accomplish this, more power to you - GREAT JOB. Please accept my sincerest congratulations.

Still, I respectfully fail to see how that supports your point that the ethnically-based Churches must cut their jurisdictional ties to the old country and be forced to join some ethnically-neutral Byzantine Rite Catholic Church for North America.

I aksed this once and I will ask again - why not just let assimilation do its thing and, eventually, the ethnically-neutral Church will, according to your model, be the only one that remains?

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, sir, but you seem to be promoting an artificial acceleration of a natural process. Why bother?

Yours,

hal

I would agree with the administrator that Greek cuisine (as great as it is) would not have been a factor in having the Grand Princes of Kyiv-Rus (Ukraine) consider Christian Orthodoxy as state region for his subjects. The unique alphabet created for the Slavs was clearly one of the two factors for accepting Christian Orthodoxy over other religions or rites. For this we can thank the two Saints to the Slavs - Cyrill and Methodius.

The second may have been the 'secrets of masonry' (and I don't mean the secret handshaking people stuff ). Brick making at this time was considered 'high tech' on par with NASA of today and the Greeks were the masters of this 'engineering marvel' at the time. The Rus rulers believed that to create great Christian temples quickly and economically, they had to acquire these masonry skills from the Greek Orthodox, and it is thought that this was also an important factor in accepting Christianity from Byzantium.

So in a nutshell, maybe Souvlaki did not sway the Grand Princes, but Greek masonry probably had a significant influence.

Alex's view should not be considered ethnocentric, but rather a realistic reflection of multicultural Canada vs the melting pot USA.

Ukrainians Canadians who were discriminated againsts for generations (as were most Slavs) fought hard to preserve and promote their rites of Christianity and their culture. It was no coincidence that the former Prime Minister of Canada announced the federal policy (and Ministry) of 'Multiculturalism' at the Ukrainian Canadian Congress' national convention in 1971 (?). Prime Minister Trudeau clearly stated during his speach at the banquet that no other group in Canada was able to preserve and nurture the cultures of the immigrant minorities as where the Ukrainians (btw, this includes not just Galician Rusyns but also Carpatho Rusyns). So, if some Ukrainian Canadians (ie: Alex) have fat heads, believe me, they have been inflated with hot air from some very prominent Canadians :p .

Today 'mainstream can be almost anything in Canada. When Canadian Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn died recently, his +2 hour long Orthodox funeral was broadcast live, mostly in Ukrainian. The Prime Minister, the Cabinet, the diplomats, and hundres of other people of note who stood at attention through the Divine Liturgy and they did not think that the service was anything other than 'mainstream'.

Although it is sad that Alex's cousin left the Byzantine rite, I have uncles and aunts who left also and their departure had nothing to do with wanting to be part of the 'Anglo-mainstream'. It's part of the normal process of acculturation / assimmilation which often have nothing to do with not liking the faith into which you were born. You win some you loose some, it can happen quickly or drag on. There are many reasons for this, and my experience is that it has nothing to do with domes of the church In fact, the domes seems to attract more than anything else. Non Ukes stop to take pictures and visit those domes because they are so enchanted with them, so on this I do not agree with Alex.

I do believe that what Alex is stating is that: in Canada, the Ukrainians have been very much to Greek Catholicism as the Irish were to the Roman rite. In Canada, it's hard to just come and completely separate the two from one day to the next, and perhaps why should we ? Did the Irish Roman Catholics ?

In many ways the Irish used the Catholic Church to strengthen themselves as a group in the new world. In fact, many historians write that the Irish self-awareness and / or ideas of statehood only truly materialized in the new world once they enriched themselves and shed a generation of peoples who had developed inferiority complexes. Here they were able to develop the intricate political, financial, and geopolitical strength to help the 'old country'.

It should be also noted that the Ukrainian Greek (Byzantine) Catholic priests arriving from Ukraine, are very open, and even encourage non-Ukrainians from becoming members of our church. This is a 180 degree policy change from previous generations. They are in a greement with the administrator that there will not be endless generations immigrants arriving on our shores. Also, those comming often do not want to settle in the same areas a the older immigrants. Sacremento, never known to be a hotbed or traditional area of the Ukrainian diaspora, now has the largest Ukrainian Saturday school with over 400 students attending.

Unfortunately, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church receives few if any new immigrants. The majority of the Carpatho-Rusyn immigrants arriving from Ukraine attend Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches. Those arriving from Slovakia tend to affiliate themselves witht the Slovak Roman Catholic Church. They have become Slovakized / Latinized. Just because the idea of Carpatho-Ruthenism has pretty much come to an end, does not mean that the idea of Pan-Ruthenism (ie: Ukrainianism) should also end.

There should be no reason why our UGCC churches should not be open to non ethnic Ukrainians who wish to become members, or who just want to use our churches for American Byzantine Divine Liturgies. Further, it is great if other Greek (Byzantine) Catholics wish to unite to form a new church in the United States. However, this is not the immediate goal of our Ukrainian Greek Catholic and Orthodox Churches which will unite to form a strong new church with ties to Ukraine, but open to ALL Americans.

Hritzko

TIME OUT!

looks like we've hijacked Susie's public service announcement on behalf of her parish and turned it into a discourse on the merits (or the lack thereof) of a pan-ethnic or non-ethnic American Byzantine jurisdiction. Let's return the focus upon her topic. Continue the discourse in another thread.

Thank you.

Alex,

Thanks for your post.

What I find to be both curious and sad is that you have already written off North Americans as a people who are incapable of comprehending and embracing Byzantine Christianity before there has been a serious effort to witness it to them. Why is this?

The Slavic culture at the time of SS Cyril & Methodius was far more foreign when compared to the Greek culture of that time than the North American culture is when compared to the Byzantine Christian culture (be it Arabic, Greek or Slavic).

Why do you believe that North Americans are incapable of comprehending Byzantine Christianity?

Why do you believe that North Americans are incapable of becoming Byzantine Catholics?

What is wrong with giving the essence of Byzantine Christianity to North America so that it may develop a uniquely North American expression of Byzantine Christianity?

I have seen some excellent examples of North Americans embracing Byzantine Christianity. I�ve written about it before, but several years back I had the privilege of visiting SS Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Ben Lomond, California for Sunday Divine Liturgy. They are a group of (mostly) former Protestants who have embraced the Byzantine form of Christianity and made it their own. While that parish has certainly had its challenges, it is a wonderful example of the beginning of allowing Byzantine Christianity to form a unique and valid American expression. In their relatively short existence we already see the beginning of new compositions of liturgical music, which will someday replace the current liturgical music much like the Slavs developed their own chant to replace Greek chant. Closer to home, there are several Byzantine (Ruthenian) cantors who have composed new melodies for the Divine Liturgy. The seeds of a distinctively North American Byzantine ethos are already sprouting. They need people like you to nurture them so that they may take solid root and grow.

Admin

Hal,

Thanks for your post.

How do you justify not caring with the Gospel command that you proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

First, as Christians we have an obligation to proclaim the Gospel to all peoples � including the people of North America. It is logical that our Churches combine resources so that we may more effectively evangelize.

Second, a combined pan-ethnic jurisdiction provides a better foundation for the formation of new parishes. Such a move will allow us to speak to North America with one voice rather then multiple, ethnic voices.

Third, evangelical activity that is not restricted to one ethnic community can bring new peoples into our churches, providing a home for the remaining ethnic people as the ethnic community assimilates into the North American culture. [I say this realizing that there are some Byzantines who would rather leave Byzantine Christianity altogether then to worship in parish that is not ethnically pure.]

Because the pan-ethnic Church does not really exist yet. Some Byzantines have planted seeds, but those seeds are only beginning to sprout. It will take the ethnics to nurture those seeds and allow them to grow and develop into a mature, North American Byzantine Church.

Admin

Father Deacon is quite correct. Let me see if I can duplicate this thread and then split the contents.