www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Restoring tradition to our parishes

Dear Administrator and Incognitus,

In the experience of the UGCC, as at least one of you will know , it matters little what those at the top say or do about liturgical reforms.

Our parishes will do what they wish and I've been in three different parishes in the last two weeks that seem to have three visions of what our Liturgy should be - and have implemented them into their liturgical practice.

Our Church has everything from St Volodymyr's Basilian parish to St Ilya's in Brampton.

Liturgical reform is just such a great armchair discussion topic!

Alex

Dear Alex,
The experience of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church is rather different, which may explain why the use of coercion in liturgical matters is stronger in the Pittsburgh Metropolia and its suffragans.
Anyway, what's wrong with topics for erudite armchair discussions? It's better than playing Parcheesi for hours on end!
Joking aside, you've surely noticed that the cultural element of religion (presumably any religion) - and nationality, for that matter - can produce fights with remarkable speed, which indicates for my money (and I don't have much money) that many people take these matters with great seriousness.
Delighted to have you back on screen.
Incognitus

Dear Great Unknown One!

There's nothing wrong with armchair church politics - I, for one, thrive on them!

But in our Church, liturgical matters occur at the parish level and that's were it stops.

I've never pretended to know what goes on with our Ruthenian brothers and sisters, in their church, I mean. All I know is that Cantor Joseph and Fr. David wouldn't get past first base with our Ukie people . And I'm sure they're not going to lose any sleep over that.

I remember when our Patriarch (you know, the one no one wants to recognize) issued a simple matter such as a uniform text for the Our Father and Hail Mary - and who follows that text.

I do. But I've yet to be in a parish that follows me in obedience to the Patriarch on this simple matter.

Alex

Oh most renowned one, Alex of Toronto, would you be so kind as to post these texts for the enlightenment of those of us Ukrainian Catholics who knew not of our Patriarch's request? I remain your humble servant. Don

Bless, Father Don,

They are the Ukrainian text only - would you still like them?

I most certainly do use them - it took me a week to make them second nature, but I did it because our Patriarch told us we should use them.

I'm usually very obedient. I just won't ask the Administrator for a reference in this regard . . .

Alex

Don, as Alex mentioned those standardized translations are in Ukrainian. He did that because the Basilians were so wont to preempt all of the hierarchs (including the Patriarch himself) with their own translations. If you really want them in Ukie, I can bring them over tonight...

But all was not lost, Alex, as the Studite Trebnik and others still use those translations of Patriarch Josyp. I was also looking at a KP book the other day which used his translation of the Our Father. It seems sometimes they appreciated his work more than our own hierarchy.

I have real difficulties in changing the Ukrainian translation. Dai nam dnes' to dai nam sohodni is one thing, but the meaning is entirely different between dovhi nashi and the new translation. I don't understand why something that basic and essential had to be tampered with. It seems the Patriarch of blessed memory still has his detractors to this day.

As for standardized English translations, that is another entirely different matter. I prefer the Hail Mother of God I learned years ago from Fr. Roman Galadza as it sings so well in Tone 1 Kyivan.

Dear Diak,

Well, I've already committed the new translation to memory - so that is that in my case!

I agree that the old translation was nicer as it was closer to the Slavonic text.

But the nice thing about the new text is that it is closer to the actual Ukrainian Orthodox text.

As you know, Patriarch Josef the Confessor never served the Litury in Ukrainian or the anachronistic Ukrainian, but in Church Slavonic only - he could never get the hang of it, which is fine.

It would be a tragedy if we lost the Slavonic completely.

The other day I visited the house where I was born and where I lived for the first 13 years of my life.

It is now a monastery with nuns and the dining room is a chapel with a Stations of the Cross and an altar!

The nuns asked me to pray in "my language" so I said the Our Father and Hail Mary in Slavonic - just as my parents had taught me in that house so many years before.

They couldn't understand me, of course, and stood close by studying me as I prayed in that chapel where I used to run around and play hide-and-seek with my friends!

Sniff . . .

Alex

Oh well, I guess that's the way it goes...

Even in Old Slavonic, the Old Rite and Synodal Otche Nash are different from each other...

... and "Hail, Mary, full of grace" as well.

Well, seems to me that Patriarch Joseph mandated one translation of those two prayers and Patriarch Myroslav-Ivan another one. Both Patriarchs are now (we trust) in the heavenly kingdom. So you may use whichever translation suits you without worrying - because in either case you are being obedient!
As to English, I would provide the text as used by my own alma mater (during football games), but would not wish to give scandal.
Incognitus (maybe I'm really the author of *the cloud of unknowing)

I wanted to pursue one aspect of this thread, but was delayed because I had to return to Cleveland from Friday to Monday. This is a statement I would like to make on the nature of the Liturgy:
The Divine Liturgy is a true sacrifice. It is identified with the death of Christ on the Cross, and his resurrection. This identification comes from the presence of Christ in the gifts of bread and wine in such a way that they are truly his body and blood. Through the mystery of the incarnation, through our Communion in Christ�s true body and blood by way of the sacramental mystery we are brought into true union with God, One in the Holy Trinity. While the Scholastic theologians tried to establish the sacrifice on some physical aspect of the eucharistic elements, the sacrifice comes from the identity of the elements with Christ, who as God, transcends all space and time. Thus, Christ offering himself on the Cross and rising from the dead for our salvation is as truly present in these historical events as he is in the Divine (Godly, of God, by God) Liturgy that we celebrate. The historical events, however, as the fathers unanimously witness are present not in their bloody mode, but in a mystical (sacramental) manner, so that the Liturgy is consistently called an �unbloody sacrifice� in the liturgical texts. There is, of course, only one sacrifice, Christ has entered once for all into the sanctuary not made by human hands, and the eucharistic sacrifice is not other than the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, and his holy Resurrection (for the Communion we receive is of the risen body of Christ, not the dead body that was taken from the cross and, historically, remained in the tomb until the third day). At the same time, this one true sacrifice, identified with the Cross-Resurrection, is modally discrete, and therefore �unbloody.� It is also called a �sacrifice of praise,� or a �rational sacrifice� (in Greek, �logike latreia,� which literally means �wordy worship,� but �latreia� here may be translated by the word �sacrifice.�) What, therefore, do we mean by a �wordy� (rational) sacrifice. The �wordiness� here does not apply to the deacon�s petitions, which are found in all services, even outside the Divine Liturgy, nor to the people�s hymns, which are accompaniments (yet important in their own right as the office of the people) to the ritual actions performed by the ministers of the Liturgy, nor in the psalms and readings from Scripture, which form the inspired stratum to the command of the Lord to �do this in memory of me,� which is done, in the primary place, by the prayers of the ordained priest, who prays in the name of the community through the grace of the Holy Spirit. Hence, it is here where the Liturgy becomes �divine� for God prays in the priest and the priest prays only by the grace of the Spirit received by the laying on of hands. However, the priest does not pray-offer the sacrifice only for himself or in his own name but for the sake and salvation of the community. Hence, by doing this, he transcends human powers. Moreover, it is in his prayer that the �wordy worship-sacrifice� is performed, and, therefore, the words said by him become the prayer-sacrifice of the whole community. John Chrysostim was quite explicit on this point: �One sees that the people contribute much to the prayer...during the fearful mysteries, the priest speaks for the people, and the people speak on behalf of the priest, as can be seen from these words, 'And with your spirit.' The prayer of thanksgiving is again a common prayer offered by the priest and by all the people. The priest begins, and the people join him and respond that it is just and right to praise God: this is the beginning of the thanksgiving. Why are you surprised if the people mix their voice with that of the priest? Do you not know that these holy hymns rise to the heavens, where they mixed with those of the angels, the cherubim and the heavenly powers?"
(On 1 Cor, Homily 18). The people particularly join in the prayer by saying their �Amen,� - �Would that it be so�, which the fathers often called the �seal� of the prayer. Therefore, I would arguethat it is essentially more fitting that the people hear the prayer (and not read it in a �missalette� or hear it in catechism, which are outside resources - you may as well have the priest say, you can read the gospel for yourself in the pamphlets I�ve passed out - why bother to proclaim it then) which they shall affirm by their �Amen.� The only reason this has not been done for so long is that the Liturgy was NOT IN THE VERNACULAR, and it is interesting that as the Liturgy in the vernacular becomes more common in both Orthodox and Catholic Liturgies, that the priests� prayers are inevitably going to be said aloud. They are the words of the sacrifice of praise that are at the very heart of the Divine Liturgy that we offer to and in God. I think this theology is more than clear, and can be challenged only by some kind of ritual �gnosticism� where the presbyter would have access to mystical knowledge that would be denied to the community as a whole.

//While the Scholastic theologians tried to establish the sacrifice on some physical aspect of the eucharistic elements, the sacrifice comes from the identity of the elements with Christ, who as God, transcends all space and time.//

Dear Fr. David,

I tried starting a thread on the Notion of Change, but nobody seemed to respond to it. I find myself wondering why the Aristotelian notion of change (matter, accidents, validity, etc) is still so popular � even in Eastern Christianity of all places? The thread can be found at:

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002475

Do you think, Father David, that the notion of Eucharist as �food�, namely spiritual food, is still foreign to many Eastern Christians? Food is food and is to be consumed, not adored or exposed. The telos of Liturgy, as in regard to Communion, is to consume the Eucharist, no? I dare anyone to try telling an infant or toddler that he/she is only allowed to �look at� the liquid in the bottle or sippy-cup!

But many cannot give up that old Scholastic-Aristotelian based notion of accidents, matter, or even Transubstantiation and the Kodak Moment of species-change and all those senseless arguments that go with it.

But these are my ruminations �

//I think this theology is more than clear, and can be challenged only by some kind of ritual �gnosticism� where the presbyter would have access to mystical knowledge that would be denied to the community as a whole.//

That has been my point all along. I am glad that someone else has brought this up. Gnosticism, as a form of clerical elitism, seems to discriminately hide select words in the Liturgy for their own private consumption. But I fear that when public things become hidden for too long, substitutes are found to take their place. Whether it be an extreme form of symbolic interpretation (the Liturgy as a Life of Christ or Passion Play) or a piety that begins to elevate private devotions to public life (praying the Rosary during the Liturgy) or even developing a false sense of �mysticism� in such contemporary Gnostic tendencies (affection for liturgies in other tongues and silent prayers). The �cult� of religion no longer is simply the expression or ritual phenomena of something real, but the prime focus or reality itself. And as Patriarch Eutychius once said, �They act stupidly.�

One last question. Do you think that this gnostic tendency can be explained by our encapsulation in a Pseudo-Dionysian world view? (Now there's a thought: a Dionysian world view with an Aristotelian notion of change! :p )

Oooohhh! What one has to do just to worship God these days!

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

As for why nobody responded to your thread on the notion of change, I have my understanding.

Your brilliant intelligence and erudition, grounded on such heights of scholastic foundations as yours . . . can sometimes scare the s___ out of people like me . . .

That's why.

Alex

Alex,

Thanks. I think.

I blame it on the canonical requirement of philosophy for my training. Metaphysics can really mess you up for life. I believe Steve Martin had something to say about metaphysics and drugs, and which was worse. I think the Cappadocians had a better grip on such things. I'm just a guilty bystander watching people build theological arguments using used bricks from elsewhere ...

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Well, then you are in good company with a number of Church Fathers trained in Hellenic philosophy!

And I think you didn't deserve that comment from our esteemed Administrator on the thread about the anaphora "out loud."

Unfortunately, I have no authority to canonically penance him for it

But I know you Ruthenians love each other, no matter how many internet punches are thrown!

God bless you, struggling and concerned servant of Christ and His Church!

Alex