www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Alexis Toth

Dear Friends,

I've been reading a little bit (on the internet) about Father Alexis Toth and his reasons for leaving the Catholic Church and joining the Russian Orthodox Church. It's very distressing that Bishop Ireland was so meddlesome, and his grave errors pushed thousands away from the Eastern Catholic Churches, unfortunately.

This being said, I am inclined to think that if Father Toth were alive today, he might have stayed with Eastern Catholicism. Because Vatican II has encouraged Eastern Catholics to rediscover their patrimony (and progress has definitely been made, although it's a continuing process). From what I can infer, pre-V2 Eastern Catholicism was quite different than post-V2 Eastern Catholicism. Perhaps if Father Toth lived in this day and age, he would reconsider his abandonment. How significant were the numbers that left the Eastern Catholic Churches for the Orthodox Churches? Apparently Alexis Toth founded the Orthodox Church in America, which is fairly widespread, at least in terms of Eastern Christianity in the United States.

I'm interested in y'all's opinions, what do y'all think of the historical events, the present events, V2's role in all of this, etc.?

ChristTeen287

Shlomo ChristTeen,
I agree with you a 100% St. Alex would have stayed. I lived in Minneapolis for 11 years (yes there is a purgatory) and moved to Toronto last year. After liturgies on Sunday a number of Eastern Catholics got together at a little Lebanese restuarant and shoot the breeze. One of the toasts we would make is to St. John Ireland the Patron Saint of the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) since Minneapolis-St. Paul (the Twin Cities) was the epicenter. It was all in fun, plus the Ruthenian priest from St. John the Baptist got a laugh off of it.

It is because of what people like John Ireland, that I got into apologetics for the Eastern Catholic Churches. I know that Archbishop Ireland was committed to the Church, but he was wrong-headed on this point.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

P.S. How is your journey with the Eastern Churches?

John Ireland had his own one-sided views of the ideal Church, as well as the American bishops of the RC at that time.
Anyway, the Vatican was not very happy with him. He was a complete modernist (americanism was viewed as modernist), Americanism preached the cultural homogeneization of the Church, that's why he tried to supress the Slavic heritage of the Russyns in order to "integrate" them. He was also in favor of the use of only-English in the liturgy (even the Latin Liturgy).
I'm sure that if he was alive, he would be very happy with Vatican II's reforms on the Latin Church.

Just a brief comment: while there can be a lot of speculation about Fr. Toth and what would have happened had Archbishop Ireland been a bit more educated, I must caution that the effects of this horrible escapade are still wreaking their havoc on the Western Slavs and their other brethren who find themselves separated into several different jurisdictions in North America. For many cradles, this is a very personal and still very painful issue. While we can make light about Archbishop Ireland being the "founder of Orthodoxy" in North America, we must always be very sensitive to the realities of our Slavic brethren who still bear the pain of the stupidity of the past.

Thanks be to God, many Slavs have moved beyond the jurisdictional stuff and have accommodated the Orthodox/Catholic labels as legal stuff and not really relevant to the familial and ethno-cultural bonds that bind the community. Let's pray that the Slavic community can once again find the 'ties that bind' and restore the unity that is their patrimony and heritage.

(Too bad the Slavs didn't follow the Italian model and had a Slavic-Mafia go to the Archbishop to "explain things" to him and "make him an offer he couldn't refuse". Things would be REAL different today!!)

Blessings!!

Good points, Dr. John...we can speculate forever what could of happened but the damage has been done. And the jurisdictional splintering within Orthodoxy also caused its diffuclties, lawsuits, parishes splitting, etc.

One just needs to look at where the former Greek Catholics have ended up - the OCA, two Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions, the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic, and that's just in the USA. Canada has its own versions like the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada, etc.

It's unfortunate that Roman Catholic bishops at that time would rebel against and ignore the encyclical of their own pope (Orientalium Dignitas by Leo XIII).

You mean the Poles, Slovaks, Czechs, and Lusatian Sorbs (the Western Slavs) all have their own bishops in North America?

No, they can get along together.

Yuhannon,

My journey concerning the Eastern Churches is goin' great! I still have not decided whether I want to be a traditional Roman Catholic (NOT SSPX, but as a parishioner at an indult parish) or an Eastern Catholic. As an Eastern Catholic, I know I would frequently attend Tridentine masses, and as a Tridentine Roman, I know I would frequent Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies. On the whole, I agree with the praxis of the Eastern Churches, but there are a few ideas, theologies, etc. with which I identify more closely with the Western Church. Sorry to say, I can't ever see myself frequenting a Novus Ordo mass, even a perfectly celebrated one with no liturgical abuses. I've been to a couple (one at St. Patrick's Cathedral) and quite frankly I just don't like 'em.

From what I can tell, if I were to become Eastern Catholic (and I have a loooooooooooooong way to go, I'm just 15) I would probably be Melkite, but who knows? I just pray that I don't lose my religious fervor that I have right now, because I have seena and heard of many people slipping into sort of nonchalant attitudes about their "faith", if you will.

ChristTeen287

Shlomo ChristTeen,
That is good to hear. If I can I would recommend that you read Fr. Anthony J. Salim's book: "Captivated by Your Teaching: A Resouce Book For Adult Maronite Catholics." It will give you a rich understanding of the Syro-Maronite Tradition.

If you do decide to go Byzantine, be inducted into the Italo-Greek-Albanian Catholic Church. Even though they have only one parish here you will be closer to your religious roots from Southern Italy.

Poosh BaSlomo,
Yuhannon

Christ Teen, it's OK to keep relations on the other side of the fence. We need to breath with two lungs, as Pope John Paul II reminds us in Orientale Lumen.

Even though I am a subdeacon and cantor at a Ukrainian Catholic parish, I occaisionally still sneak over to the Tridentine High Mass every blue moon and sing with their schola when they are in a pinch. Music's not nearly as good as samoyilka, samohlasni and znamenny, but I look on it as an outreach to our Roman brethren.

Yuhannon,

Thanks for the book advice. However, if I were to become Eastern Catholic, I probably would not enter the Maronite Tradition, because (unfortunately) it seems to have a strong Western emphasis and some latinizations, for obvious historical reasons. If I were to become Italo-Greek Catholic, could I still be a regular parishoner at, say, a Ukrainian Catholic church? I say this because, as far as I know, I'm not gonna live in Las Vegas or NYC, where the only two American outreaches of Italo-Abanian/Italo-Greek Catholicism are.

Diak,

I'm sure I would appreciate the musical and ethnic heritage of the Eastern Catholic Churches even more if I had a drop of Eastern European blood in me, or if I even understood how to pronounce the words you just said, lol.

ChristTeen287

Yuhannon,

I think it is not right for you to suggest that ChristTeen join the Italo Albanians without a local parish nearby for him to join. We are not a bunch of cowboys using the Byzantine Rite; we are a community. ChristTeen should join the community where he worships regularly.

In Christ,

anastasios

I agree with you, anastasios. I don't think ChristTeen would even be allowed to become a member of the Italo-Greek Catholic Church, since he wouldn't be able to attend regularly. As far as I know you can only be initiated into a Church that you have been going to weekly.

In Christ,
Anthony

Why is everything so complicated in the USA?

Here you just go to Church and that's all.
Sometimes, it's not possible to attend the same parish all the time, specially if the Eastern Rite parishes are scarce.

It's Eastern "CHURCH" parishes, Remie. Not rites! Arrgghhhh...lol just kiddin'. Just a little fun, I'm j/k so no one get upset please.