www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Alexis Toth

Dear ChristTeen,

You are "j/k?"

Is that "Junior Kindergarten?"

Have a good weekend.

Alex

What?! I'm outraged! Y'all aren't "down" with my generation's cyber-abbreviations? J/k means just kidding. Y'all may have me beat in the knowledge of Eastern Churches, but I am the master when it comes to cyber communication. But no, I'm not a computer nerd...they really don't like me at all.

ChristTeen287

Dear ChristTeen287,

You say " I still have not decided whether I want to be a traditional Roman Catholic or an Eastern Catholic". Well, you are very young, I am just some years older than you. You are a Roman Catholic (Latin Church), I am Roman Catholic (Latin Church) too. Both of us are interested in Estern Catholic Churches, but there is one diference between us, I am not "a traditional Roman Catholic" or "Tridentine Catholic" as you say. Probably you will decide what you want to be when you will know what is wrong, from your point of view, with the liturgical reform of the Roman mass. Is it an aesthetic problem (do you consider Tridentine mass much nicer than Novus Ordus mass?), a liturgical problem (do you consider that the Tridentine mass is more faithful to Latin Church's liturgical tradition?), a linguistic problem (do you feel at home when attending, for example, a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in English) or is it a dogmatic/theological problem (do you accept the teachings of II Vatican Council?)?. You must know that Melkite patriarch Maximus IV was one the most relevant Fathers of II Vatican Council. I think that II Vatican Council had got much more Eastern “colour” than Tridentine or I Vatican Council (but you should better ask proper Eastern Catholics). The Decree about Easter Catholic Churches proclaimed that the Eastern Church Tradition is part of the heritage of the whole Catholic Chuch and is to be apreciated and venerated by all Catholics. I think that in JUST A FEW POINTS Novus Ordus Roman mass is much more “traditional” (from the Eastern point of view) than Tridentine mass (concelebration, communion under both kinds in some circunstances, Old Testament readings (as in ancient Saint James Liturgy), celebration of the ancient Paschal Vigil during Holy Saturday evening with the celebration of baptism, Anointing of the Sicks instead of Extremauntion, confirmation with formula "Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"). I think that the difference among Eastern Catholics and a Tridentine Catholics is that the first are “traditional” while the second are “traditionalist” (does this word exist in English?, well I think you will understand what I mean, i have nothing against "Traditional Roman catholics" although I not one of them). In order to help you I will tell you that if you accept the use of “filoque” in Latin mass, the communion under only one sacramental kind as a rule and not as an exception and the separate celebration of the sacraments of the Christian initiation (baptism, confirmation and first communion) your place is in some “Traditional Catholic (Tridentine)parish”. But if you think that the symbol of faith without the “filioque” is more faithful to the teachigs of the Fathers of the First and Second OEcumenical Councils and the tradition of the Roman Church (till 1014), if you prefer communion under both kinds as the Lord told His disciples to do during Last Supper and as it was the tradition both in Eastern and Western Chuch, and you believe that the sacraments of Christian initiation have got an unitary character and must be celebrated at the same ceremony as it was the tradition both in Eastern and Western Chuch, congratulations,your place is in an Eastern Catholic Parish. But do not forget that Eastern Churches are not only beautiful ceremonies, these wonderful ceremonies are the expression of a rich theological, liturgical, and canonical tradition different in some points from that of the Western Church. Do not forget that the ecclesiology of Tridentine and I Vatican Council (no salvation outside the Catholic Church, no Church without Peter, "praestantia ritus Romani" or, as some pope said, "it is easier for a Catholic to be saved if he belongs to the Latin rite" ) has nothing to do with the ecclesiology of the Eastern Catholic Churches or II Vatican Council. Well I hope that you will tell us if my little "test" (filioque, Holy Communion under both kinds, Christian initiation) have helped you or not. I wonder how a so young person is interesteed in theological topics, congratulations. May the Lord bless you. Yours in Christ. Francisco

Dear ChristTeen,

Yes, I would follow Francisco's good advice.

Since Francisco listed the liturgical propers for St Mark of Ephesus on another thread, I join with him in recommending praying to St Mark of Ephesus and St Gregory Palamas (to whom Francisco is going to light a candle for me) and invoking their aid in your spiritual journey.

Alex

Querido Francisco and Christ teen:

Yes, I'm sure that there are a lot of parishes in the USA where the Novus Ordo is celebrated reverently and in a sacred environment, including all those asthetical things we all like (priest facing the altar, sacred music).
At a certain degree there are some things that could be close to the Eastern Liturgy, like the communion under both species, but there are a lot of things that went out of control, as Cardinal Ratzinger said, and could become a new obstacle to Ecumenism with the Orthodox.

It's thought that the "liturgical abuses" are most of the time result of ignorance in some priests and bishops, but it doesn't mean that the rite is bad. I think that there are a lot of possitive things.

I appologize for the lack of respect, reverence, and charity that I so blatently demonstrated in that last post. I have reqested the administrator to delete it. Please forgive my imprudence and lack of consideration and if I have offened anyone on this site who may have read it.

Athanasius

[Dear Athanasius, ...post deleted, thank you for keeping charity a first priority! Elias]

I'd like to know if the Italo Albanian Cburch in Italy also uses Albanian as their language.

Are they really Albanians?

From what I've seen in the pictures of the Eparchy of Lungro and other, the Churches and the vestments of the hierarchs are like a blend of latin and Greek vestments, but with brilliant colours and it looks very nice.
However I saw some statues there, as decoration, I don't know if someone can provide information about the Albanian Church

Remie,

Yes, the Italo-Albanians do use Albanian in the liturgy in Italy. They use a combination of Albanian, Greek, and Italian. They are real Albanian's or of Albanian descent. The Italo-Greek church that existed prior to their arrival in southern Italy was nearly extinct. It had been rather successfully integrated and assimilated into the Latin church. It is only because of the exodus of the Albanian's to sourthern Italy that we still have that ritual Church today. And yes, it is a pretty neat church.

Francisco,

I do not doubt nor am I opposed to the authenticity of the infallible teachings of Vatican II. I prefer the Tridentine Mass because I believe it is in keeping with the "organic development" of the Latin rite, if you know what I mean. The Novus Ordo undeniably includes and reinstitutes many practices that are part of the heritage of the early Church, but I think that this betrays the development of liturgical traditions of the Latin Rite. I don't have a problem with the Novus Ordo, per se, I simply do not believe I would draw as much spiritual benefit from a properly celebrated Novus Ordo as I would from a properly celebrated Tridentine Mass. This being stated, I must make clear that I have never, in fact, taken part in a Tridentine mass, though I have read the liturgy (many times), am semi-familiar with Gregorian chant, and have seen numerous pictures of the celebration of the Tridentine Mass.

Eastern tradition is defintely part of the whole Church. It truly does sadden me when I hear of latinized Eastern parishes, because I beluive there are immense riches to be found in pure Eastern spirituality and liturgical tradtion. But the same goes for the West. I guess you could say I view the Novus Ordo as a tad bit "easternized". Let me say that I do find the N.O. quite beautiful, but not as much as a Tridentine Mass(or properly celebrated Eastern Divine Liturgy).

Francisco, I do not know why I am so interested in the Catholic Faith. I could give you a million reasons, but at the same time it's a little inexplicable. What's that French saying, "Je ne sais que" I believe it is. Other than this preoccupation with religious belief, I am a normal teenager in every way, shape, and form (sadly, I consider traditional Christian beliefs in many teens pretty "abnormal"), including an obsession with cars, pretty not-so-very-Christian music (I'm trying to curb my addiction), girls, and sports. As you would guess, much of the time my religious beliefs come in direct conflict with my actions.

Athanasius,

I am not aware if I am part Albanian. My Sicilian family lived in a very small fishing village near Messina, so I am nearly positive that there is some Greek heritage possibly mixed with Sicilian indigenous people such as the Siculi, Sicani, Phoenicians, and Elymi. However, I know none of this for a fact. For all I know, my ancestors could have been Scandinavian immigrants (or is it emigrants?) to Sicily, although by the look of their VERY dark skin, eyes, and hair, I wouldn't bet on it.

ChristTeen287

Sidenote: I did NOT mean that Phoenicians are indigenous to Sicily. "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa."

ChristTeen287

ChristTeen,

If you have an Albanian heritage is of little consequence to the ritual church you may discern to join. The Melkites would be a great choice and in many ways would be close to the Italo-Albanians. However, Albanian church has some slavic influences as well. What is of formost importance is that you join a ritual church that feeds your spiritual needs. I appreciate your interests in the very different ritual churches of the Tridentine tradition and the Byzantine tradition. However, your road to dicernment goes far beyond what you find appealing to your physical senses. It is the eye of the soul that ultimatly should guide you a decision. The west and the east have very different theologies, escatologies, and ecclesiologies. From the understanding of Mary's role in the salvific plan to even the concept of original sin. It is these issues that you will want to explore. Find where your heart leads you. Only then will you find peace.

In Christ Jesus,
Athanasius and p.s. I am a cannonical Italo-Greek Byzantine Catholic

Well, I don't think the Albanian Orthodox have so many tides with the Slavs. Albania and Bulgaria where a kind of border between the Byzantine East (in Southern Albania) and the Latin West (in the North). Both traditions were welcomed by the Albanians.
After the schism of 1054, Albanian people from the South became definately a part of the Patriarchate of Constantinople under Greek influence, while the North came under the Papacy in Rome. However, the existence of a "schism" remained unknown by the population.

Unfortunately during the Ottoman domination, a lot of christians left the faith to embrace Islam, because of the confortable status they had under the Turks.

However, in the North, the traditional clans remained faithful to the Roman Catholic hierarchy and some of the tribes worked as guards for the Sultan. They used to get Turkish girls given by the Sultan, to be baptized and to marry them. This is why the Albanian catholics have a lot of Turkish influence (more than the Orthodox and the Muslims of the South). It's interesting that the Albanian Catholic women are veiled and the men dress with the typical islamic clothing.
The spirituality and the mysticism of the Albanian people of both rites is remarkable, both catholics and Orthodox have a lot mystic practices (as a result of their contacts with the bogomiles and gnostics sects, this gnostic christian sects are the origin of most of the sufi muslims too)

Orthodox Albanians on the other side, were always under Constantinople and their Greek Bishops, the liturgy had always been in Greek until the later 1800's.

I know very few about the Albanian Catholics from the Eastern Rite.

Diak: I am interested in the fact that you, being like I from Kansas, sing in a Schola Cantorum. I was not aware that such a thing even existed out here until recently when they began doing Gregorian Chants on the first Saturday of the month vigil mass for my parish in Leavenworth.

How does one belong to the Cantorum anyway and do they sing in a regular parish?

Very interesting.

Robert K.

Athanasius,

Therein lies my dilemma. In some aspects I relate more closely and agree with traditions and theologies of the West, and many others I relate and agree more closely to the East. Also, it seems almost easier and generally is more encourages by people around this Forum and from the Vatican to be a Roman Catholic with Eastern practices, etc. than to be an Eastern Catholic with Western pracices. Since I can't see leaving either tradition for the other, I may join the Roman Catholic Church but frequenltly attend Divine Liturgies, have some Eastern perspectives on some issues, etc. However, I don't want to be a church-hopper. Obviously I will consult my spiritual director (when I get one), but will he be Byzantine or Roman? Should I have one of both? You can see my difficult position.

ChristTeen287

Christ Teen,
This is a difficult position to be in. Being that you are a convert or will be, to the faith, your decision of which ritual church you become a part of will be one that you will probably have to stay with. I imagine, although I could be wrong, that it would be harder for a person in your position to be received into a ritual church and then later say, "oops, no, I meant to be or should have gone over here". Now is the time to explore. It really won't make a difference what ritual church receives you unless at some point you dicern a vocation to clerical life. Then it gets hairy. So, my friend, continue to pray, to dicern, and yes, find a spiritual father. Just one, preferably eastern. I say this because an eastern priest is much more likely be familiar with the western church than visa versa and he will be able to better dicern where your heart is and hence, which church you should eventually be received into.

Peace in Christ,
Athanasius