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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Since many have complained about Latin bashing on this forum, I will now to proceed to list some sins I have found Eastern Christians constantly committing in my great year of discovery of Orthodoxy before I become a Byzatine monk. I would just like to say that I am still technically on paper, a Latin Catholic, but my mind, heart, and spirit have already passed over to the Eastern Church. In saying these things, I affirm that, in Christ, self-criticism and self-love are really the same thing.

1. Narrow-mindedness: Just last week, I finally spoke to the priest in the ROCOR church I usually attend Vigil at. At the very end of the conversation he asked: "So let me get this straight. You are not here to seek baptism?"

Alright, ROCOR is an extreme example, and maybe this sin doesn't apply to most of us. But we have to see how WE turn people away or think all the less of them. The problem with all of our customs, how our churches are built, how we make the Sign of the Cross, etc., are so meaningful that I think we really have the temptation to not see the forest from the trees. Who cares what vestment is worn when, what such and such a gesture mean, etc.? If we get too caught up in it, and I often do, we will fail to see how Christ is operating in people who do not have the benefit of icons or a Horologion. We are too closed, and I think that is why we are so small.

Just think how many dissatisfied people that are in the pews of the Catholic Churches today, looking for that which we could possibly provide them, but never finding it. How many of them will become lapsed, Protestants, or loose their religion all together? ( I speak from personal experience.) So why does it seem we are hiding our light under a bushel basket? Just look how few we are. This has to be at least partially our fault.

2. The Ethnic Club. Not all churches are ethnic clubs. My Ruthenian Church certainly isn't: the pastor is of Mexican descent and most of the parishioners are not cradle Byzantines. But can someone please explain to me why, when I was in Argentina as a seminarian, I heard more Spanish in a service in a ROCOR church than I did at the Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral? (In fact, there was literally not a word of Spanish uttered during the Ukrainian liturgy.) How is this going to attract people? Is this the classic example of the Byzantine mentality ("We New Romans are the civilized and all the other peoples are barbarian hordes not worth the time of converting.")? But just think, how many of those young kids in that Cathedral in Buenos Aires will be practicing their Faith twenty years from now when they are no longer children of the Ukrainian Diaspora and members of Argentine society? Even here, in the Melkite Church close to me, the congregation seems to be old and the whole thing has the feel of an Arab get-together. But where are the children? Is there any future in all of this?

3. Laziness: That's right. The Orthodox, us included, are lazy. I once asked an Orthodox priest who was probably trying to convert me the follwing: If the Orthodox Church is the true Church, and the Roman Catholic Church is a heterodox religious organization, why was it in the economy of salvation that the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will have heard the name of Christ only from the lips of Latin heretics and not Orthodox Christians? Granted, there are many historical circumstances that impeded the spread of Orthodoxy: the Ottoman Empire, Western technological superiority, etc. But even if we take this into consideration, wouldn't it be cruel of the God of Love to give the vast majority of mankind a tainted form of His Church rather than the purity of Orthodoxy? The priest could not respond to this point, and afterward became much more conciliatory towards me.
How many times have you seen Orthodox Christians come in and out of church, arriving late and not staying long? How many times have you seen that, after Paschal Matins, everyone leaves and the priest is left along to celebrate the Divine Liturgy by himself? How many Orthodox don't even come to church? Is this a Church that can serve as a light in the darkness? Is this the Church that will convert the nations? The Latin Church is so big not just because she wasn't occupied or because she was wealthier. She is larger and more prominent because she is more committed and wanted to "set all aflame" with the love of Christ.

So I'll just leave my "Orthodox bashing" right there. I say these things because I firmly believe the Byzantine Orthodoxy has a much greater potential for universality than even the Latin Church. Just look at the great saints that decorate our past. For me, for example, the greatest poet of the human condition and God's love for us is St. Gregory of Nyssa, who's main message is that our life in Christ is journey and not a destination, that if we do not change we fall back, and that we must leave our homeland, like Abraham, to go in search for that promised land, who is God, with neither shape, nor form, nor limitation. But we must overcome these obstacles in ourselves and as a Church. We are all guilty in some way of the above sins. Now is the time to find a way to repent.

Arturo

Dear Arturo,

I wonder if all this self-flagellation will make us think of ourselves in a better light . . .

Ultimately, perhaps it is the case that no one, not the Latin Church, not anyone, can ever remain self-satisfied in equating "true Church" with "perfect Church."

As for the ethnic club, which Slavic languages do you speak?

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Two more sins, if I may.

4. Arbitrary use of ecclesiastical power: An Eastern Catholic priest, when I asked him why he left the Orthodox Church, responded to me that, if you think the Pope is the most powerful Church figure on the planet, you are wrong: it's the Orthodox bishop. He then began to describe his experience of his former bishop destroying his parish, so much so that the majority of the parishioners left and began a new church, of a different jurisdiction, down the road. Say what you will about conciliarity, the "trinitarian mode of being", and other things, but this priest told me that there is nothing to put in check a bishop who misuses his power, there is no rule of law in Orthodoxy. And this made this very prominent Orthodox priest leave and become Byzantine Catholic.

5. Orthodoxy or Orthodoxies? Is Orthodoxy really one church? How much do the ROCOR church and the Greek Orthodox Church down the road really have in common? Are they really even in communion with each other? How many Orthodox theologians become their own "Pontifex Maximus" and magisterium? For example, the question of life after death. Some Orthodox are adamant about the toll-house theory, while others accuse these Orthodox of heresy, saying they are influenced by Gnosticism. There are so many other debates that take this form. So is there Orthodoxy, or are they rather "Orthodoxies" pretending to be in communion with each other?

Arturo

Arturo:

My grandparents came to the States more than 50 years ago, and I and all of my Ukie friends still attend Ukrainian liturgies even though we are otherwise fully integrated member of North American society.

In any event, parishes in the diaspora do indeed have Liturgies in different languages as need be. Maybe, in time, the Ukie Cathederal in Buenos Aires will have a Spanish Liturgy if the Faithful demand it.

So your point about the language thing is completely misplaced.

As for the rest, as you may know, in soccer it is the retalliation that is oftentimes the most blatant of fouls. Just a thought.

hal

Regarding the Ukrainian Catholic Church in SouthAmerica. I'm told that until recent times, Church Slavonic was the rule, and the use of vernacular language was not so encouraged. Graak Catholics often face the opposition from Latin Bishops, who do not like to see them "competing" with them, or attracting people. On the other side, there's no one to tell the Orthodox that they must keep closed to local people or that they must not rivalize with the Latins.

The Ukraninain parishes under the EP in SouthAmerica do use Ukrainian (church Slavonic maybe) in their services, for example.

Question 3 shows what a lousy sense of history is rampant in the world. Maybe read a good book on church history (on that is not blatantly Western) and rethink your question?

It also sounds like you're fishing for "sins" in this thread. Everyone's got a gripe and no one's perfect. The things you've encountered here and there are the faults of certain priests, bishops and parishes, not Orthodoxy, per se. Stuff happens.

Shall I tell the story of when I was in a particular church, in my riassa and cross, which seated 400, with 3 people in it, (on Great and Holy Friday!) that a woman came up to me and greeted me with "you're in my seat!"? (Hint: It wasn't Orthodox.)

Next topic, anyone?

Priest Thomas

Arturo,

For a really short summary of this thread:

Two wrongs don't make a right (both of the "Great Sins" threads are wrong, or at least wrongly placed in such a forum), and every accusation set forth in this thread will be denied anyway.

All in all, neither of these threads help anything. They hinder, and I wish the Admin would promptly close both of them.

Logos Teen

Amen, Logos Teen,

We do not need these sorts of "basing" threads howver sincere the intentions behind them. They are too easy to abuse. Aren't there enough polemical threads on other boards???

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Sorry if this thread has been divisive. But to show that what I am refering to in these questions or "sins" are merely extreme cases, I will now proceed to tell what the good virtue that these "sins" can developed when taken in the proper spirit.

1. To the charge of being closed-minded, I can only say that thankfully, Orthodoxy is greatly attached to a vision of the world that we very much need. Attention to what others might perceive as details, minutiae, and other "accidentals" in reality is often part of a grander vision of the world that Western Christians are not used to. I speak of the vision of Creation as a Cosmic Liturgy where all has its purpose, where the world is a glorious book that tells of the love of God for all of creation. Yes, we have to try to see the forest from the trees, but all trees are very important, and I am glad that the Eastern Church rarely takes out the chainsaw to start cutting.

2. To the Ethnic Club, I think historically, Orthodoxy has been very optimistic about how much human nature and human culture can be compatible to the Divine Nature. If all of man is deified, than certainly certain customs and traditions are deified as well. I myself am Mexican in descent, and I want to try consciously to maintain those traditions that my family has given me along with my Catholic faith. So in the end, it is a good thing (IN MODERATION) to try to preserve one's heritage, and it does not necessarily mean being exlusive.

3.To the sin of laziness, I have to say that the Orthodox approach in many things is much more HUMAN than what I have experienced spiritually and ascetically in the Latin rite. Latin asceticism often focuses on what you do, and from that you are to examine if you are virtuous or not. The Orthodox approach focuses on who you become, that you have a pure heart.... in the end, that you go from being an individual and become a PERSON. Thus, I have felt that, in my relationship with my spiritual father and in Orthodoxy in general, it has been a much more gentle path than when I was with the Latin integrists. So in the end, one should not judge what others do or don't do, it's if you've acquired humility in the heart. Perhaps this is taken in extremes, and in some things there has to be change amongst Eastern Christians, but it would be a shame if we threw the baby out with the bath water on this one.

4. To the sin of the abuse of power, I have to say that I have not encountered this too much, and not having a rule of law can be at times a blessing. I think there have been enough constructive criticism of out of control Latin legalism, so I won't say anything in this regard.

5. To the lack of unity in Orthodoxy: This is the one that still bothers me the most, but I can say that it astounds me that the Orthodox Church seems to stay somewhat together in spite of the amount of freedom everyone has. And imagine if those in the Latin Church had this much freedom? I just think of all of the crazies running around in the Catholic Church right now who openly muse about what sacrileges they would do or what heresies they would spread if "those guys" weren't in the Vatican. That is not to say that modernism and liberalism don't exist in Orthodoxy, but I find it remarkable that these fights don't take the "civil war" proportion that they take in the Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church really that unified, or is the unity merely political and institutional, and not spiritual and doctrinal?

As I said, self-criticism and self-love are the same thing in Christ. If we love our church, we have to be able to take a good hard stare at her. For every virtue in moderation, there is a vice in the extreme. Neither Church is perfect, at least when speaking about her sinful, individual members. A lot of these thoughts have been turning around in my head, and they are probably the reasons why I cannot convert to Orthodoxy, at least at this time. I did not mean to be divisive, and if I was, I apologize. But I still think these things should be thought about and discussed.

Arturo

Dear Arturo,

For what it is worth, I did not take offense at your posts. I believe that you have raised many legitimate points, and I did not sense hatred or anger in your writing.

As an Orthodox, (without blinders), I often ask myself the same questions. (ie:the various soul after death theoria).

The above was beautifully written,

Your Sister in Christ,
Alice

Dear Teen of the Incarnate Logos,

I LOVE your new Avatar. It is truly awesome.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Thanks, Alice. Yours isn't too shabby either.

Arturo,

Thanks for cleaning up the thread. It's a blessing to recognize faults, but even better when we know how to go about correcting them.

Logos Teen

I often wonder why it is when people bring up the short comings of Orthodoxy they are so easily excused. When its Latin short comings they become rabid. Anyone have an answer?
Stephanos I

Amen Arturo.....very astute and very, very true!