www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Calling all Melkites

Dear Melkites and Melkite Emeriti,

Yes, you are Byzantine.

And yet we other Byzantines desirous of Eastern liturgical reform in our Churches can't help but be envious of you.

You are more Eastern than all of us put together, it would seem.

If you were put in charge of our Churches, what would your approach be in helping us return to our traditions?

In other words, how would you help us become like you?

Alex

Alex,
While this may seem to be true, I know it is not.

Yes there are many Melkite parishes that appear to out 'dox the Orthodox, but there are some latinized ones also. I have heard of at least one parish with kneelers and an organ.

I just think that they have had a movement to restore thier Byzantine Traditions that was started from the top down by some very holy bishops.


Again, you must look at who you are talking to, as I have said before there is a melkite at the parish I attend that if he could be in "charge" we would have female altar servers, musical instruments, and no "repetition" in the liturgy.


Again, subjective here. But as I said, they have just been at it longer than we have. We will catch up sooner or later.... Hopefully sooner!


David

[ 09-04-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Well,

As someone who has the privledge to be Ruthenian in a Melkite Parrish, I can attest to the fact that it is restored and occiassionaly makes a stride toward something else. It is wonderful, it took many battles, though we were not there fro the main ones.

Archbishop Joseph Raya was pastor there for many years and helped to begin the move of reform.

It is as the emmarsie said when they returned to Russia, "I knew not wheter I was on earth or in heaven."

Rose

St. George is truly Heaven on Earth more so than any place I have had the blessing to visit.

During my happy years at St. George I did have the luxury of visiting a few other Melkite parishes and I can honestly say that they where a bit latinized (not that latinized is all bad, just not Byzantine). As I in heart and soul consider myself a Melkite in a Ruthenian church I do wish, and pray that we can share what Byzantine is and should be...so in one sense maybe the traditions in St. George and the Melkite churchs is spreading to other Byzantine Catholics.

As for the statement that it was a movement from the top down... I must take argument with this. The movement might have well started at the top but it is the people who keep fighting tooth and nail to keep the old traditions alive and the latanization out of the church! I have witnessed this spirit time and time again from those members of St. George. We too, if we want to see change must stand for what we believe.

I personally do not kneel after receiving the Holy Body and Blood of Christ nor do I allow my family to kneel. This is the celebration of the Resurection of Christ and we should not be kneeling but RISE as CHRIST did! We may stick out like sore thumbs but I know in my heart we are doing what we should be doing.

Glory be to GOD for the Great and Holy Martyr St. George. May he continue to fight the good and Holy fight to bring us back to the most Holy of Traditions.


Yours in Christ,
Jeff

It seems that the Melkite Greek Catholic Church in the USA is more traditional than its Orthodox counterpart, the Antiochian orthodox Church.

It hasnt happenned in Mexico, the Antiochian Church is still primarily Arab and has many ethnic Meicans too, but I have not seen any westernization there. The Melkite Church is also very Eastern without latinizations.

So I'm surprised about what I've heard of the AOC in the USA, I've heard that some of them are becoming quite liberal and allow things that could be compared with the modern latin church (female altar services and chants that are closer to afro-american gospel than to Greek Chant).

Is this true?

No!

>>>Yes there are many Melkite parishes that appear to out 'dox the Orthodox, but there are some latinized ones also. I have heard of at least one parish with kneelers and an organ.<<<

That's OK. I know of Greek Orthodox parishes that ALSO have kneelers and an organ--and stained glass windows, too. Can't beat that urge to assimilate and be "American", can we?

I just checked my passport. It's blue with a big eagle insignia on it. YIKES! I am an American.

In 1915, my grandparents (and others) formed a new Greek community in the South End of Boston dedicated to St. John the Baptist. They purchased a former Unitarian church building that was being used by Ashkenazi Jews. It had stained glass (plain panels), a MASSIVE pipe organ (now of historical value) and a set of very substantial pews. Once the paneling had been fitted with icons, and the old Torah 'nook' (I don't know the technical term for it) had been broken through and an altar installed, it became home. And for a bunch of poor, hard-working folks who didn't feel comfortable at the "Cathedral" with its marble floors and walls and 'monied' congregants, it was 'the community's place of worship'.

For them, they had "a church". A real one, of good size and quality, built for "church". And not a converted hall. And it fostered the community's sense of identity as a parish. And for the past 80+ years, it has been home for my family. And it has given a 'model' for what "our community" is all about, including the colored glass, the pipe organ and the pews.

Sure, it doesn't look much like the 700 year old church in our village in Kolyinis, (Annunciation), but it is what we inherited from our forebears, and it now serves as the inspiration for where we are and where we are going.

Orthodoxy is the people; not the building.

Blessings! (And Eternal Memory to our forebears who both kept and adapted the faith to their circumstances.)

Oh, please spare me the tales of immigrant struggle and ethnic woes, Dr. John. The fact is, too many Eastern Christian communities, having come here, decided that the future lay in blending in, regardless of the implications for their faith. Certainly, many Eastern Christian communities find themselves taking whatever lodgings are available, and some of these have the accoutriments of Western Christian worship. That doesn't mean that they should be used, any more than it means they should be ripped out. More scandalous, to my mind, is the fact that, having come into the mainstream of American life (Greeks are one of the richest ethnic groups in the country), and fully capable of building churches that conform to the canonical and traditional standards of Eastern Christian worship (and you, of course, should realize that the integration of worship space and liturgy is far more important in Eastern Christianity than it is for the West), they deliberately CHOOSE to build churches that mimic Western models--and not the best examples of Western church architecture, either, but some of the most hideous examples of 20th century minimalism and industrial style. And, compounding error on error, they then proceed to decorate the interior of those churches in a fundamentally Western manner--pews (with kneelers, in many cases), organs (Greek liturgical composers in this country take the organ for granted, much to the disgust of both Bishop Kallistos and my 12-year old daughter), stained glass, sound systems--the works. The objective seems to be to impress with modernity and ostentation, rather than to build a temple of the Lord consistent with the principles of Orthodox worship. But then, it's only been in Greek Orthodox churches that I've ever seen the priest turn around and motion for everyone to rise at the singing of the Trisagion.

Sorry, Stuart, but I think your perspective is unrealistic and, frankly, very unkind and self-centered. And your flippant dismissal ("spare me..") of the efforts of our grandparents and forebears and their accomplishments is pure arrogance. It's not 'real' to you, since you weren't around; but for the rest of us, it is a valuable part of our lives.

I resent deeply the implication that what the community does currently is no good and that there is some standard of purity out there that we should be striving for. We got where we are for good reasons: historical, cultural, and financial. And any changes that we make now should also be made for good reasons. Sure, a number of Greeks have money and they give (very) freely to the Church. So, there're sound systems and electronic organs and modern architecture. And there's even some English being heard during the Divine Liturgy. And it's all different from what finds in the "old country". And the same is true for the other Eastern communities. (The Ukrainians come immediately to mind.)

So, pardon us if we move ahead trying to improve our family lives and our Church life. But we've got a lot of history under our belts that we are not going to ignore. And if the community decides it's going to install electronic bells or central heating or dimmers on the lights, then it is the community's decision - for their benefit. And just because it doesn't conform to someone or other's 'purity standard', well.... too bad. Once that person has been around for a while and has eaten a lot of food and drunk a lot of beverage and has washed floors and windows, painted walls, sold Christmas trees, cooked for the picnic, repaired plumbing and taken care of folks who needed some assistance, then the individual becomes an integral part of a community -- and then, and only then -- will it become clear that it is the community that is important and not some synthesized abstract ideal. And it's the community of people who get to choose what they want -- for better or for worse.

If someone's looking for changeless orthopraxis, then start a monastery, a museum or go join ROCOR. The rest of us are movin' on.

Sometimes I do think you'd be much happier as a pietist.

I do not diminish the strong effort that the Melkites have done to preserve their Eastern identity, but they have some important advantages that the other Eastern Catholic communities (Ukrainian, Ruthenian) do not have:

1) Time. The union of the Greek Patriarchate of Antioch with Rome, occured almost three centuries after the unions of the Byzantine-Ukrainian communities in Europe.

2) The Melkites were always surrounded by an Eastern Christian environment (and muslim of course) where the latins had lost the liturgical influence they used to have before.
On the other side the European byzantine catholics have lived in a region which has been dominated by Hungarians, Poles, and Germans (all of them from the Latin Rite) and their orders depended on latin vicars in many places.

Remmie,
For the record, there was no union of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch with Rome. That is the Roman Catholic version of telling the story. The story of uniatism.

I thought terms like "uniatism" and "uniates" were offensive terms to Eastern Catholics? Doesn't bother me, my being Methodist and all, but just in case maybe we better not use it. Of course it goes both ways: when Eastern Catholics say they are "Orthodox in communion with Rome" it ticks some Eastern Orthodox off too. Let's just be cordial mis hermanos en Cristo.

ChristTeen287

Christteen,

I think that Rum Orthodox was just reflecting the Balamand Statement which states that the model of "uniatism" cannot be a way forward towards unity between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Paz en Christo,
Brian