www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Bishop Kallistos Ware's Clarification

Since the topic of Bishop Kallistos Ware's statement on the ordination of women has been closed, I am opening up a new topic to state Vladyka's explaaination of what he meant that has been misinterpretated so many times.
This post by an OCA priest is Bishop's Kallistos reply to said priest confronting him at the last OCA Sobor in Pittsburgh -


Fr Dimitri writes in answer to a question on Bishop Kallistos stance on women clergy -

[As to Bishop Kallistos's position:
As you may note this is not something new; the item to which we are
directed relates to the Harare conference of 1998. Raiser's remarks
caused some stir at the time. In 1999 Bishop Kallistos was a guest at the
OCA's All-American Council. Being a brash individual, I took the
opportunity of his presence to corner him about the issue -- literally --
I was in front of him on an escalator going from one level of the
convention hall to another; he couldn't avoid me or my questions :-)

His response was as follows, and I secured his permission at the time to
repeat it to any interested parties:

When plans were being made to reprint the book "Women and the Priesthood"
(ed. T. Hopko), Bishop Kallistos was asked for formal permission to
reprint his contribution in the new edition. He was hesitant to give
permission. His reason, he said, was that he didn't think the theological
justifications given there for a male priesthood were adequate. He also
felt that we have basically borrowed the RC arguments and not developed
our own arguments out of Orthodox Tradition. He thought that there needs
to be a complete reassessment of the reasons for a male priesthood on the
basis strictly of Scripture and the Fathers viewed from a strictly
Orthodox viewpoint. I specifically asked him whether he thought such a
reevaluation might lead to an acceptance of women priests. He said that
he didn't think that would happen at all, merely that we would have a
stronger, more genuinely Orthodox basis on which to justify our practice
of an all-male priesthood. He said that his personal position remained
that he opposed women priests, and he did not foresee any change in that
position. He just felt that our theological explanation and justification
of the traditional position is not as strong or authentic as it could be.
He also expressed regret that there had been a lot of speculation
resulting from his hesitation to endorse his earlier paper.

This is from the horse's mouth, so to speak, although the information is
two years old.

Vaya con Dios,

Fr Dimitri]

Robert,

Beat you to it

I posted Fr Dimitri's comments on the original thread before it was closed.

Luke

Luke:

Didn't notice it. But I'm glad that this has been resolved. Since it bothered me to think that an Orthodox Bishop might have said such a thing!

Bob

Dear Friends,

I think that whenever we deal with theologians of the calibre of someone like Kallistos Ware we should always give them the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions.

I was more than a little put off by our Roman Catholic brothers over their comments about Ware before having all the facts.

Do they know that Ware is currently studying the issue of the Filioque and that he said (I heard him) that the more he studies it, the more he realizes that the Filioque really isn't a "heresy" in his opinion?

What would our Roman Catholic friends say about that?

And have they ever read his "The Orthodox Church" and the Orthodox Way?

What is also annoying is how far our RC friends will go in describing the Orthodox Church in ways that the Pope and Rome never have.

As for liberalism, I went through the RC education system here.

I can tell you all about RC liberalism and left-wingism.

Alex

Bravo to Bishop Kallistos. While the reactionary elements in both communions wish to suppress the "moderate" viewpoint in order to justify their pogroms against the "liberals", this bishops teaches wisely. One can not be an advoate of ordianing women to the priesthood yet accept many important points rejected by the reactionarys.

First would be the value of listening and discussion. Are all of the factors put forward against women's ordination valid? Do some of the lack intellectual weight? Are some motivated by bigotry? Are even some of the valid points (or those who make them) based on bigotry? Are many of the most strident opponents of womens ordination people with problems acceptign women as social equals? If the priest must be male, because he represents Christ, the Bridegroom of the Church, are male laypersons participating in a homosexual act at Divine Liturgy (the flip of the "lesbian" comment). What about women in the diaconate and lay ministries? In this not a minor point in the Church's understanding of the priestly minsitry? Does it really call for us being bitter and nasty towards ecumencial partners? Is it possible that many or even most of the vocal opponets of women's ordination are motivated by bigotry rather than truth and that most of those who respond affirmatively to those silly opinion polls of the Catholic faithful are simply expressing a belief in the social equality of women?.


And lastly, I think it is unseemly for Catholics who are sincere in promoting ecumenism with the Orthodox to attack them for their ecumencial committment of participating in the WCC, especially since the Catholic Church & the Universal Pastor has repeated praised this organization for its contributions to ecumencism.

K.

Kurt,

And lastly, I think it is unseemly for Catholics who are sincere in promoting ecumenism with the Orthodox to attack them for their ecumencial committment of participating in the WCC, especially since the Catholic Church & the Universal Pastor has repeated praised this organization for its contributions to ecumencism.

Help me understand your objection here. I do not believe that the WCC offers a sound platform for ecumenism. I believe that it is a serious error for any Christian group to be involved with this group. Does that make me, a Byzantine Catholic, unseemly?

Dan Lauffer

I just want to express my personal regret and sorrow that persons from the Church to which I belong have made statements which have caused pain and upset to our Eastern and Oriental Brothers and Sisters, Catholic and Orthodox alike.

Words betraying a lack of love in their conception or expression are unacceptable no matter to whom they are directed or from whom they come. They lead us to betray the law of love mandated by Jesus as the norm of behavior for His disciples.

At the very least, the statements made in the closed thread about Orthodox and Protestant believers and Churches were inflamatory. They exhibit a lack of love expressed in words that are careless and misinformed at best. They show a lack of sensitivity to or concern for the attitudes, beliefs, and feelings of our hosts who are, after, all our brothers and sisters in communion with our commmon Servant in Rome. They also do not reflect the hospitality that we Christians are called to show because they are abusive to fellow guests here.

The statements made by those proporting to state doctrine of the Roman Church about the Orthodox Churches are clearly out of the mainstream. The difference is clear when the words are compared to the authentic teaching of the Patricarchs and Bishops, the Fathers of Vatican II and of John Paul II. I ask the Eastern and Oriental Christians of both the Catholic and Orthodox communions to treat the unfortunate and uncharitable statements of my Roman brothers with the respect that they deserve. I leave the degree of repect to your wise judgement!

They do not reflect the view of many of the Roman Catholics who come here to see the Face of God reflected in the wonderful variety of Churches He has gathered. I believe that when properly taught most Roman Catholics understand, respect, and treasure the Eastern and Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Such an attitude is reflected in the questions and answers posted on Anthony Dragani's Eastern Q&A site on EWTN.

Let me say just a word to the Roman Catholic posters in the closed thread who posted the statements that caused the thread to be closed.

We are guests in our brothers' and sisters' room in our Father's House. Our role here is not to convert, not to belittle, not to challenge. Dr. John pointed out our role here in one memorable post (among many memorable posts). He said,

"So, please study who we are.
Examine our practices.
Ask questions.
And Don't ever judge us.

That's our bishops' responsibility, and they'll do it on their own."

(Dr. John, Moderator in the EastNWest Forum, Topic: Are Roman/Western Catholics welcome here? 6/03/01)[arrangement of words mine!]

By our coming here and posting you and I present to the persons, posters and lurkers alike whom we join here, the Image of God that He reflects in the Roman Church and its tradition. Your behavior belies that tradition and clouds that Image. The true tradition of the Roman Church is not about superiority or about lashing out in anger. It is about doing what we have been commanded to do, "Love one another as I have Loved you."

It is the same tradition that undergrids all groups of persons whom God has called together to reflect Him to the world. Please, my Roman brothers, think about what you do, lest the best that those here can say about us is "Forgive them for they know not what they do."

To my brothers and sisters in the Eastern and Oriental Churches of both Communions again, my sincere regret and sorrow.

It appears that among the members of the Catholic Communion, and the members of the Orthodox Communion, and among the Protestants there are persons who are only secure when they feel superior and better than those who are different. Unfortunately, this need for security impedes the ability to show the love to which we are all called.

Hard as it is, none of us is excused from the Law of Love because some of our brothers and sisters do not obey it. They may drive us to distraction. Is it not possible to see their behavior as an opportunity? Are we being offered a chance to let God shape our behavior so that we can do good to those who harm us?

Please do not let the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

JOY!



[This message has been edited by inawe (edited 07-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by inawe (edited 07-23-2001).]

Dan,

I am not questioning your entitlement to your private beliefs. At variance with your view, the Orthodox members of the WCC do believe that the WCC is a sound platform for ecumencial initiative and that their membership is not a serious error. I think it is unseemly for Catholics on the one hand to claim to be supportive of Orthodox ecumencial initiatives but then to damn other ecumencial initiatives of the same body.

I would have no objection to you publicly outlining your disagreement with Pope John Paul as to the merits of involvement with the WCC, as that would be an internal disagreement within the Catholic family between you and the Pope.

K.

Alex, my friend,

It is good to hear from you on this topic. I was glad to see that you point out the way that the Pope and Rome speak about the Orthodox Church is not the way that caused the discussion to be closed. I am sorry for the annoying that was done in the closed thread by persons from the Roman Church. I believe that you are referring to those specific Roman Catholics when you point out how far the RC friends will go.

I am also quite sure that you can thoroughly tell us about RC liberalism left wingism and even about RC conservatism. I'd be quite interested in learning from you. But I'm not clear about what these comments would add or do add to the discussion here.

Liberalism and Conservatism and right wingism and left wingism are constructs to use to analyze many things including the Roman Church and its educational system.

They are not the Roman Tradition. Nor are they what the Roman Church's educational system is about. ISTM that it is about transmitting the Law of Love to the next generation and preparing educated members for Gods people.

Like the members of the Churches, though, that system is surely not perfect in technique or in love. I am sorry that you experienced the flaws in that system as you learned. I am Roman Catholic, and I experienced flaws also. I also experienced, as I am sure you did also, the dedicated love and expertise of the faculty and staff for learning and students and the Faith.

I must say, having learned from you here, that the system reached its objectives in your case despite the flaws in the system.

By the way, we celebrated the feast of St. Benedict on the 11th of July in the Western Churches. Is that feast celebrated in the Easstern Churches? Is it celebrated on that day or on another day in the Eastern Churches? Peace!

Please do not permit the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

JOY!

Kurt,

You write:

"I would have no objection to you publicly outlining your disagreement with Pope John Paul as to the merits of involvement with the WCC, as that would be an internal disagreement within the Catholic family between you and the Pope."

If Pope John Paul II is so supportive of the WCC, why has the Catholic Church consistently refused to become a member? At present it is only an "observer," and there are no public plans to formally join.

Anthony

Dear Inawe,

Yes, you are right, Brother in Christ.

There was a time up here when theological liberalism was quite rampant in our Catholic institutions. Thankfully, that has passed.

My comments, as you have said, were in no way directed to Roman Catholics, such as yourself, but to those who have chosen to be hurtful to their brothers in the Eastern Churches.

Perhaps, next time, I'll refer to them as "Roamin' Catholics" so as not to label my devout Latin brothers the same way?

Please forgive me a sinner!

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Thanks for your kind words to all - an excellent posting and excellent sentiments.

I think I managed to get the last word in on that thread before it was closed. I was attempting to be concilliatory, but you have said it far better than I.

The discussion (or rather, argument) in parts of that thread made me very sad indeed. We who are Christians should always disagree, if we must disagree, kindly.

Anthony,

Thank you for the opportunity to defend the Holy Father's support for cooperation with the initiatives of the WCC. I think the Holy Father's remarks to Dr. Konrad Raiser, General Secertary of the WCC, when he was received in Rome are helpful:

"Relations between Christians are not aimed merely at mutual knowledge, common prayer and dialogue. They presuppose and from now on call for every possible form of practical cooperation at all levels: pastoral, cultural and social, as well as that of witnessing to the Gospel message.

"Cooperation among all Christians vividly expresses that bond which already unites them, and it sets in clearer relief the features of Christ the Servant".This cooperation based on our common faith is not only filled with fraternal communion, but is a manifestation of Christ himself.

Moreover, ecumenical cooperation is a true school of ecumenism, a dynamic road to unity. Unity of action leads to the full unity of faith: "Through such cooperation, all believers in Christ are able to learn easily how they can understand each other better and esteem each other more, and how the road to the unity of Christians may be made smooth".

In the eyes of the world, cooperation among Christians becomes a form of common Christian witness and a means of evangelization which benefits all involved."

Opponnets of the Catholic Church's ecumencial initiatives often try to present matters in black and white terms. I.e either one is a member of the WCC or it is a serious error to be a part of this group.

The Pope rejects such such thinking and is unafraid of the risk involved in ecumencial cooperation. The Catholic Church participates officially in the WCC's Faith and Order Commission. In addition, the Permanent WCC/RC Joint Working Group aides in the coordination of various Catholic-World Council colaborations. The Catholic Church has never "rejected" membership in the WCC and does particpate in similiar national and regional organizations. Clearly on the world level, the Working Group has proven to be very useful and therefore actual membership seem to be not neccesary.

Clearly the Holy Father finds this a organization that makes positive contributions to ecumencialism, though obviously individual Catholics like Dan are free to disagree with him.

K.

[This message has been edited by Kurt K (edited 07-23-2001).]

Dear Kurt,

I am so happy with the Pope's visit to Ukraine and his Beatifications that anything the Pope says is O.K. by me.

That was the case with me before, only I am more enthusiastic about it now .

Alex

Thank you Alex.

The Universal Pastor, in his ministry works so hard to reach out to all Christian communities, it is sad when some of his own faithful do not have the courage he has. But he tells us not to be afraid and that in dialogue with Protestant and Orthodox Christians, we Catholics experience a "sharing of gifts". Why would anyone reject a sharing of gifts or deny Protestant have gifts to share?

I think the Orthodox are also to be commended for their membership, participation, leadership and financial contributions to the WCC and the National Council of Churches (NCCC).

Also commendable is the work of Church World Service, the joint Protestant-Orthodox humanitarian agency which is a beautifal witness for the concern Protestant and Orthodox Christians have for the victims of war, famine, natural disasters, disease and other social matters.

K.