|
2 members (melkman2, 1 invisible),
150
guests, and
20
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,295
Members5,881
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134 |
Someone at another forum I visit regularly posted the following, to someone else's charge that Mel Gibson was part of a schismatic Catholic church and therefore not in full communion with the Pope]: A friend of a friend worked for Mel Gibson as part of the marketing team for The Passion. According to her, Mel Gibson asked Cardinal Mahoney for permission to buy a church in the LA diocese for the Tridentine Mass. CM refused, saying that the Tridentine Mass is available in the diocese - the 1st Sunday of the month in the north, the 2nd in the south, the 3rd in the east, and the 4th in the west. When a church in the diocese went up for sale, MG offered to buy it. CM refused and gave it to SSPX for free. Then MG asked CM if he built a chapel on his own property, would CM allow a priest to say Mass for him. CM said if MG could find a priest willing, then it would be okay. MG found four, and they went to CM for permission and were refused.
Then MG went to a Byzantine bishop and asked him if he had any bi-ritual priests who could celebrate the Byzantine Liturgy as well as the Tridentine Mass. The bishop said yes. MG asked if the bishop would allow one of these priests to say the Tridentine Mass at the chapel on his property, and the bishop said yes. MG asked if he could place himself under the direction of the Byzantine bishop, and he granted this permission.
So, if this is true, maybe Mel Gibson is not "in full union with Rome" because he is under the direction not of a Latin Rite bishop, but of a Byzantine bishop, rather than disobedient or a member of some heretical group. According to my friend's friend MG has not come out and said anything about the rumors surrounding him and his stand with the Church because to do so would be to expose how CM has behaved towards him, and MG does not want to give rise to scandal. Okay, I am really curious about this! I assume they're talking about the Bishop of the Van Nuys eparchy. Does anyone know if this is true? Is it something that COULD BE true, i.e., is it likely that the Bishop would give his approval to Mel's church in this way?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688
Moderator Member
|
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688 |
T-G,
the Bishop of Van Nuys would not or could not give permission to a bi-ritual priest to celebrate the Tridentine Mass at any chapel, that permission would come from the Latin Ordinary. The bishop of each diocese or eparchy regulates the liturgical celebrations according to his own liturgical tradition. The exception to this may be found in the case of those faithful who have no hierarchy or jurisdiction of their own in a particular county. This is the case of Byzantine Russian Catholics in the US, in which case their priests are enrolled as clergy of the Latin diocese and subject to the Latin bishop where they are located.
For a bishop to assign a priest for someone's private chapel, a true pastoral need must be demonstrated. Somehow, I do not think MG's dissatisfaction with the Mass of Paul VI qualifies as a "true" pastoral need.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688
Moderator Member
|
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688 |
So, if this is true, maybe Mel Gibson is not "in full union with Rome" because he is under the direction not of a Latin Rite bishop, but of a Byzantine bishop, rather than disobedient or a member of some heretical group. T-G, BTW, whoever wrote this (I know it wasn't you  ) does not understand Catholic ecclesiology or that the Catholic Church is a communion of Particular Churches. Members of any Particular Catholic Church are "in full union with Rome" by the fact that their respective bishops are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517 |
No, the Van Nuys Eparchy is not involved. I happen to be acquainted with the priest in question, whom I will not identify but who is in perfectly good standing with the Catholic Church and holds a valid, licit celebret for the Tridentine Mass from the Ecclesia Dei Commission in Rome. He has also held bi-ritual faculties for decades to enable him to serve the Divine Liturgy, and he does so quite often. He has never been associated with any schismatic group or movement.
Incognitus
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 712
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 712 |
Originally posted by incognitus:
He has also held bi-ritual faculties for decades to enable him to serve the Divine Liturgy, and he does so quite often. He has never been associated with any schismatic group or movement.
Very interesting. Then maybe we can assume that he is part of the UGCC. Perhaps he belongs to the UGCC's western eparchy with their bishop of Chicago. The March edition of Redears Digest has an interview with Mel Gibson concerning his movie the Passion of Christ. In the iterview he mentions the fact that we should also remember the other large human suffering of the 20th century. He specifically mentions the artifical famine in Ukraine that killed millions, and the over 20 million people who died in the Soviet Union. Is it possible that a UGCC priest has been coaching Mel about history, and serving divine liturgy for him as well ???? Only Incognitus would know for sure  - maybe you could comment.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134 |
Thanks for the quick responses! I didn't think it was true either, but wanted to make sure of my facts before responding. (for a change! )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,084 Likes: 12
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,084 Likes: 12 |
Originally posted by Hritzko: Originally posted by incognitus:
[b] He has also held bi-ritual faculties for decades to enable him to serve the Divine Liturgy, and he does so quite often. He has never been associated with any schismatic group or movement.
Then maybe we can assume that he is part of the UGCC. Perhaps he belongs to the UGCC's western eparchy with their bishop of Chicago.
The March edition of Redears Digest has an interview with Mel Gibson concerning his movie the Passion of Christ. In the iterview he mentions the fact that we should also remember the other large human suffering of the 20th century. He specifically mentions the artifical famine in Ukraine that killed millions, and the over 20 million people who died in the Soviet Union.
Is it possible that a UGCC priest has been coaching Mel about history, and serving divine liturgy for him as well ????
Only Incognitus would know for sure - maybe you could comment. [/b]Greg, Re-read Incognitus' post. He describes a Latin priest who has bi-ritual faculties to serve the Divine Liturgy. So, Mel has gained his knowledge of Ukrainian history elsewhere. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 712
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 712 |
Neil,
I have taken your advice and have re-read Incognitus' post. I have been unable to see where it states that the priest is of the Latin rite. In fact I do not see the word 'Latin' anywhere.
What I have read is:
(1) He has permission to serve the Tridentine Mass from a Catholic commission in Rome.
(2) He is a Catholic in "good standing", but it did not mention if he was RC, UGCC, 'Ruthenian' , Melkite, or other.
(3) He has been bi-ritual (Tridentine Mass and Divine Liturgy) for some time, but it did not state to which rite he was ordained, or to which he belonged to, etc...
As you know Bishop Milan Shashik of the Mukachiv eparchy of the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine is bi-ritual, but also participates in the conference of UGCC bishops. I could say that he serves the Latin Mass but is bi-ritual. This would be a true statement, but would lead many to believe that he is RC who on occassion serves divine liturgy, when in fact the oppossite is true.
Incognitus may not wish to provide more clues as to the identity of the priest in question, but based on the above posts (evidence) you can't conclude that he is not a UGCC (or other Eastern Rite) member.
Hritzko
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,084 Likes: 12
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,084 Likes: 12 |
Greg,
He holds a celebret to serve the Tridentine Mass. It is to serve the Divine Liturgy that he holds bi-ritual faculties, not the other way around - ergo, he is not of the Eastern Church in the first instance - otherwise, it would be to serve the Latin Mass (Novus Ordo or Tridentine) that he would hold bi-ritual faculties.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,517 |
Heavens, I've seldom known people to go to the trouble of developing an exegesis of my writing on the Internet!
a) what I wrote was true in every regard,
b) my friend the priest is not available to me right this minute, and I would not wish to name him or otherwise identify him without his permission.
Incognitus
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134 |
Okay, let's cut to the chase, get to the bottom line, cut out the fat ... [insert your favorite no-baloney metaphor here] -- is Mel in communion with Rome or is he ain't?
(in yer humble opinion/s?)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658 |
There's no sufficient evidence to state that Mel Gibson is not "in communion" with the Roman Catholic Church.
Not long ago there was some news about the movie, and a priest, personal friend of Gibson, celebrated mass everyday for the movie actors and crew. This priest said to recognize JPII as a Pope but just like the SSPX, does not follow some of his opinions.
An independent parish might not be a regular part of the Diocesan establishment but can still be Catholic, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217 |
Based on the amount of support Mel Gibson has gotten from EWTN, I would certainly expect that he is in communion with Rome. And, I might add, I know of Latin Rite priests, who though they would never deny that John Paul II is the true Pope, are highly critical of many of his actions.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134 |
Originally posted by Mexican:
An independent parish might not be a regular part of the Diocesan establishment but can still be Catholic, right? Um, uh, well, I am pretty confident that an "independent" parish which does not have the permission of the local bishop ("diocesan establishment") to exist, could not really be considered part of the Catholic Church, except perhaps under the "spirit of Vatican II".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134 |
Originally posted by Lawrence:
And, I might add, I know of Latin Rite priests, who though they would never deny that John Paul II is the true Pope, are highly critical of many of his actions. Yes, I know of quite a few of those too. They're usually the ones with dancing girls and balloons on the altar during their Masses.
|
|
|
|
|
