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Matt Offline OP
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What good is communion with the same beliefs are not held?
The question you have to answer is "are western and eastern beliefs more or less two sides of the same coin?" If the answer to this question is "no" then by all means you should not seek reunion. Also, if the answer is "no" then the schism should of happened even earlier then it did because East and West had been drifting apart for some time. In my opinion however the Catholic Church's answer to this question is "yes"; therefore the Church is seeking reunion. It is the Orthodox who are generally much more hesitant to answer in the affirmative -- and arguably for good reason.

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-1- Joseph Ratzinger was not a Pope when he wrote those things, a lot can happen to a mans perspective.
Neither was he Pope when he replied to the Melkite initiative; so I don't see how that helps us either way.

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-2- There is considerable dispute yet about what the Papacy was actually like during the first 1000 years. This is fodder for some very lively discussions these days, probably because of these well-known statements. It could take 1000 years of argument to settle the matter.
This is true to some extent but I'm also surprised by how much the two sides agree. For example, if one reads histories of the schism by Meyendorf and Cougar they both follow a similair path, albeit with a slightly different spin. Nevertheless, I agree that there needs to be additional discussion on what a reunited Papacy would look like based on the "thousand years" principle. Moreover, it may very well be difficult to reach agreement on the issue.

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Originally posted by Matt:
For example, if one reads histories of the schism by Meyendorf and Cougar they both follow a similair path, albeit with a slightly different spin.
Would that be Xavier Cougar?

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I think he meant Yves Congar?

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Matt Offline OP
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Yves it is smile

Sorry for the spelling mistake.

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Originally posted by Matt:
Yves it is smile

Sorry for the spelling mistake.
Xavier Cugat

I was teasing. Google his name smile

You'll see that I am quite aged. wink

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Originally posted by Matt:
How does this jive with Ratzinger's statements to the contrary in Principles of Catholic Theology? In that book he explicitly states that the East is only bound to the first thousand years. It seems that Rome flip-flops on this point. I wish they had a more consistent position.
It makes no sense to me.

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These are some thoughts I originally was going to post on the "Universal jurisdiction, Florence question" thread, but I think they are appropriate here as well.

The Council of Florence is often discussed negatively by ecumenists � and with good cause, since it greatly worsened the split between East and West, especially regarding the filioque. Nevertheless, I believe the council also has positive implications for us today.

In particular, despite the fact that universal papal jurisdiction was defined by Unam Sactum in 1302 (albeit not described in precisely the same way that it would be described by Vatican I), the Latins at the Council of Florence did not (correct me if I'm wrong) require agreement on this point as a condition of reunion (provided the Easterns did not condemn it either). Nor was such a requirement made at the later unions (e.g. Union of Brest). Does this not apply today as well? Specifically:

1. What does this mean for the �united� Eastern churches? Can ECs be in full communion with Rome without accepting Unam Sactum (or the �universal ordinary jurisdiction� of Vatican I)?

2. What does this mean for the possibility of double communion (e.g. the Melkite Initiative)? If the Melkites are in full communion with Rome without accepting universal ordinary jurisdiction (i.e., not merely believing it not to be a dogma, but in fact considering it to be untrue), would it follow that the Melkite and the Orthodox already have a complete unity of faith, and that full communion between them would be possible (i.e. double communion)? (On other points like the �filioque� and infallibility, I�d say there is sufficient agreement that these should not be any obstacle to the Melkite Initiative.)

I should add a qualifier here though that a number, possibly a great many, Melkites do believe UOJ to be true. (In some cases, Latin Catholics switched to the Melkite Church without changing their beliefs; in other cases, Melkites themselves have come to accept UOJ through the "interactions" � it would be disingenuous for me to say �dialogue� � between Latins and Melkites.) This may be one of the reasons the Antiochian Orthodox Church reacted negatively to the double communion proposal, particularly since it is very difficult to determine how many Melkites accept UOJ and how many do not.

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I dont suppose going back to the Syrian rite, is an option for either of these Churches who were not always Byzantine. I suppose it may be too late for them to do that.

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In particular, despite the fact that universal papal jurisdiction was defined by Unam Sactum in 1302 (albeit not described in precisely the same way that it would be described by Vatican I), the Latins at the Council of Florence did not (correct me if I'm wrong) require agreement on this point as a condition of reunion (provided the Easterns did not condemn it either).
I hate to shoot down anyone's ideas (including my own) but I'm afraid the above statement just isn't right.

If you go to http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM and scroll down to "Session 6 � 6 July 1439", you'll find a proclamation of the reunion ending with the following:

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We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles, and that he is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him was committed in blessed Peter the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church, as is contained also in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons.

Also, renewing the order of the other patriarchs which has been handed down in the canons, the patriarch of Constantinople should be second after the most holy Roman pontiff, third should be the patriarch of Alexandria, fourth the patriarch of Antioch, and fifth the patriarch of Jerusalem, without prejudice to all their privileges and rights.
So whereas just a few days ago I thought I could see a silver lining in the events of the Council of Florence, I'm now doubting that any silver lining exists. frown

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Dear Peter,

I agree with your statement that the Council of Florence put forward a number of positives with respect to the East-West unity issue!

The negatives also had to do with the political backdrop to the Council (i.e. the Turks-at-the-gates-of-Constantinople thing wink ).

But the way in which the Latin Catholic Church dealt with the Greeks at that Council demonstrated, as I see it, a lot of theological flexibility.

Perhaps I'm wrong (and I'm sure I'll be hearing from Eli in that case! wink ), but it seems that, if one were going to put forward an overall, simplistic framework for the conclusions of that council, it could involve that of leaving the Eastern traditions alone while the Greeks would accept the orthodoxy of the West's positions on the Filioque etc.

In fact, the Greeks did not ask the West to drop its theology of the Filioque at all - only the addition to the creed which was a canonical, rather than a theological, matter.

The principle on which the theology of the Filioque was approached by both sides was a consummately Patristic one: Regardless of how the Eastern and Western Fathers expressed themselves on the matter, as they were both inspired by the same Holy Spirit, their expressions on the Procession of the Holy Spirit would mean the same thing.

This is why many Greeks at the Council accepted the validity of the theology of the Filioque as being the same as what the Greek Fathers had taught.

This is also why, truth be told, St Mark of Ephesus, that great "arch-dissident" wink affirmed that the "Testimonies of the Western teachers I neither recognize nor accept - I surmise they be corrupted."

In other words, when faced with the Patristic texts of the Western Fathers on the Filioque, the Archbishop of Ephesus refused to admit, on the plain face of them, that the West taught what the East had always taught about the Procession of the Holy Spirit. He not only refused to accept them, but he even made the claim that the texts of the Western Fathers had been "doctored" by the Latin theologians at the Council!

I don't see any Orthodox theologian defending that action by their St Mark of Ephesus . . . in fact, Fr. John Meyendorff didn't highly prize St Mark's theological acumen at Florence as a whole.

St Gennadios Scholarios was another story altogether, as we know, and although he was against union with Rome, as well, this didn't prevent him from highly praising the work of Aquinas etc.

The Council of Florence was also an advance over the union council of Lyons in the 13th century with respect to the Filioque.

The Greeks who came into union with Rome at that Council (including, according to Fr. Holweck, the Metropolitan of Kiev, St Peter Akerovych, himself by way of a personal union) accepted the Filioque, theologically and canonically, as Rome required at that time.

Florence required no such thing. The Latin Catholic Church affirmed the legitimacy of, albeit its own, vision of Eastern Catholic theology and canonical traditions. In short, I would be so bold as to say that what Florence represented in East-West relations in 1440 is what the current Pope of Rome has also said with respect to the same matter.

Perhaps even more importantly, Florence led to the Union of Brest in 1596. What I mean to say is that when the Ruthenian Orthodox bishops (Ukrainian and Belarusyan) sought to come out from under Constantinople (for various reasons, including some dubious ones) and achieve union with Rome (and with Western European civilization), they had a ready example of a church union document, that of the Council of Florence, that they examined and . . . could live with and that were reflected in the 33 points of agreement of Brest.

That is truly the great achievement of the Council of Florence, I believe!

The problem is that a number of EC Churches have come so far away from even the principles enunciated at the Council of Florence that if our bishops fully implemented them TODAY - many parishioners would simply feel awkward in their own parishes.

Papal Primacy and the way it was expressed at Florence would have been much less of a shock to the Greeks at the time.

Patriarchs were given to using all sorts of rather effervescent titles and claiming powers - some legitimate, as in the case of Elder Rome - and others not so legitimate.

Alexandria is a case in point. It claimed to be second in command after Rome because it was founded by St Peter's assistant, St Mark the Evangelist i.e. the "Evangelical See."

It was Alexandria, not Rome, that FIRST claimed immediate, universal (ecumenical) jurisdiction over EVERY church and priest in Christian Africa at the time. That wasn't even on Rome's radar screen as yet, and the Pope of Rome was earlier referred to as "His Beatitude" and "Bishop of Rome" with "pope" the invention of Alexandria.

Papal jurisdiction of this sort which was later affirmed by the Pope of Rome is, therefore, (dare I say it? Will you come to my rescue? wink ) a product of Eastern Christian ecclesiology in the first instance . . .

The Greeks of Constantinople had a history of a long struggle with Alexandria over these same claims and, in the course of them, preferred to have Elder Rome exercise those prerogatives rather than Alexandria - something that Alexandria never forgave Constantinople "the usurper for second place" for.

The Greeks already had a history of "hands on" experience with papal jurisdiction - during their political fights between Emperor and Patriarch. Rome was their convenient - and necessary - referree.

Let's also remember that it was Constantinople - not Rome - that gave Rome the many superlatives with respect to St Peter's prerogatives etc. at the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

As for the Filioque, Fr. Meyendorff sometimes mentioned the fact that there were times when the Greek theologians did not protest against its inclusion in the creed - depending on the state of relations between Rome and Constantinople of the day.

EC's sometimes have the lamentable habit (and I'm an EC too! smile ) of comparing their own often Latinized state today to that of past Councils like Florence.

Florence did not "Latinize" anyone - we EC's did that to ourselves via our bishops and others.

Florence laid out an ideal, which would have been different, of course, if Florence were held today.

If we EC's could begin to live that Florentine ideal today in our eccesial praxis, we will have returned to a great deal of our genuine ecclesial traditions.

Alex

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Glory to the Father , Son and Holy Spirit from age to age Amen+

O Holy Theotokos Panagia Maria , Pray for us sinners Amen+

Hello

My name is Mark , I have been reading the posts on this forum for the last year from different members on various subjects. I have to say I am impressed with the respect and dignity the people on this forum have for each other. Though I dont know you all personally I feel that by reading your posts I have gained a better insight into the Faith.

After reading the posts on this particular thread, it seems to me that the Union of the two Churches , the Body of Christ, will not come about through agreements on paper, or synods, or intellectual debates and discussions. Rather it seems that only a union based on agape, that is "love", will unite the two Churches. The love of God transcends all things. Amen+

God Have Mercy on us through the Prayers of the Theotokos save our souls.Amen+
-The Sinner, Seraphim Mark

P.S. I do know one person on this Forum, very fondly , Steve also known as "Apotheoun". Its good to see you online again and read your comments. May the All Holy Trinity guide and protect you always . Amen+

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Welcome to our forum, Mark! smile

We look forward to your contributions.

In Christ our Lord and Saviour,
Alice, Moderator

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Hi Mark,

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum!

Great you have been reading here for a year!

I do agree "love" is the answer, yet sometimes somethings need to be learned and understood better by explanation, dialogue, and discussion.

With Alice I am also looking forward to your posting.

In Christ,

Porter

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Mark,

Welcome to the forum.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Mark,

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum. I have enjoyed our conversations over the years, and I look forward to reading your posts.

God bless,
Todd (aka Steve, aka Apotheoun)

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