www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Kyivan Patriarchate

This might seem like a foolish question. If and when Rome recognizes the Kyivan Patriarchate, do other Byzantine Slavic churches ( ex:Russian Catholic Church) have the option of being under the Kyivan Patriarchate? or do they continue to be as they are?
Lauro

Dear Ipreima,

Excellent question!

Historically, the Church of Kyiv that entered into union with Rome in 1596 was comprised of the peoples of Ukraine and Belarus that was one Church jurisdiction that Rome collectively referred to as "Ruthenians."

Met. Andrew Sheptytsky later received jurisdiction over all Eastern Catholics throughout the Russian Empire, including Siberians and Old Believers as the Eastern Catholic "General Superintendent."

The Russian Catholics tended to create their own parishes that were independent of Ukrainian Catholic church control, and they were and always will be the prime example of an Eastern Catholic Church or "Orthodox in union with Rome." The Russian Catholics still call themselves "Catholic Orthodox."

In modern times, our Eastern Catholic Churches have suffered from "over-ethnicization."

Once the Church Slavonic was replaced by Ukrainian, the Slovak, Hungarian, Belarus and other groups tended to form their own ethnic parishes.

I remember one Russian Catholic monk who asked for assistance from our Eparchy, and was turned away. He wasn't Ukrainian, after all . . .

If Rome ever agrees to a Ukrainian CAtholic Patriarchate, which, owing to geopolitical issues, it NEVER will (if I'm wrong, I'll eat my words or else perform a penance specifically designed by Subdeacon Randolph), then this Patriarchate will foreseeably continue as a Ukrainian ethnic enclave.

Alex

<<<

I know some Russian Catholics who would be overjoyed at the prospect of being out from under the tender mercies of the Jesuit order.

For me, it sounds as if it would be the best thing for all of us...Ruthenian, Ukrainian,Russian, Belarusian (sp?)Catholics to be under one Patriarch. I think it would be workable as long as each were allowed to keep their own traditions and eparchies. Think this can be done? Otherwise, I can't see any of the other jurisdictions wanting to be under the Ukies thumb and I'm afraid that is how they might see it. How can we guarantee that their uniqueness won't be overwhelmed by the larger numbers of the Ukrainian Church? And can the Ukrainian Church learn to be a part of a greater Pan Slavic Catholic Church and not try to rule over the other churches? I would hope it could. Don

Dear Don, good points! (Missed you at the baptism last weekend)

There is the venerable tradition of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky's fatherly outreach to the Russian Catholics of the early 20th century, he received under his omophorion Blessed Leonid Fedorov, Eustachy Susalev (Old Believer), Ivan Deubner, and others as presbyters for the Russian Catholics.

His sensitivity to the Ukrainian/Russian ethnic situation was also visionary. He received Fr. Ivan Deubner secretly and didn't even tell some of his own priests (there were some vicious Latinizers in those times in his own hierarchy).

After Metropolitan Andrey accepted Blessed Leonid into the Kyivan Church he arranged for his priestly ordination by Kyr Michael Mirov, the Bulgarian Catholic exarch residing in Constantinople, because he was concerned about the perceptions of the Russian faithful and knew the ordination at the hand of a Bulgarian would likely be more palatible.

We have a Russian Catholic diaconal candidate in my Ukrainian Catholic diaconal program. Bishop Basil Losten, the Ukrainian Catholic bishop of Stamford, will be ordaining him to the diaconate in early August. Unfortunately the Russian Catholic church is technically under the local Roman diocese wherever their communities are located.

Many Russian Catholics that I have spoken to are genuinely interested in being removed from under Roman jurisdiction and returning to the model advanced by Metropolitan Andrey, whereas the Russian Catholic hierarchy and parishes would be placed under the omophorion of the Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy and be allowed to fluorish as a parish of Russian usage. After all, the Russian Catholics are much closer spiritually, liturgically and theologically to us Ukrainian Catholics than the local Roman hierarchy. Being part of the Kyivan Patriarchate would further canonically guarantee the spiritual, theological, and liturgical persona of the Russian Catholic Church in my humble opinion.

The Kyivan Patriarchate is big enough for everyone and ethnic diversity should not be a problem. The Kyivan Church received its faith from a combination of Greek, Bulgarian and Macedonian missionaries with some sprinkling of others. Geunuine ethnic/language variations should not be a hinderance to unity.

If one community wants Galician usage, so be it. If one wants Russian usage, go for it. If one parish wants Old Believer usage (way cool! ) the sky's the limit. If one wants Carpatho-Ruthenian usage, do it. We all share in the Cyrillo-Methodian tradition as handed to the Kyivan Church. Diversity is a real manifestation of economia and the universality of the Church.

The point has been made on this forum reapetedly that the conditions which precipitated the separation of Ruthenian and Ukrainian eparchies in this country are extinct. All were originally united in one jurisdiction under Bishop Soter Ortynsky in this country. The resources and infrastructure of seminaries, etc. could be greatly consolidated to the benefit of all (not just economic benefits). Unity with diversity is not a bad thing. But then again, maybe I'm dreaming...
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diak:
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After all, the Russian Catholics are much closer spiritually, liturgically and theologically to us Ukrainian Catholics than the local Roman hierarchy. Being part of the Kyivan Patriarchate would further canonically guarantee the spiritual, theological, and liturgical persona of the Russian Catholic Church in my humble opinion.


I would say that the Russian Catholics (and I have met many in the Russian Center in San Francisco and at St Andrew's in El Segundo, Calif) and they identify more with the Orthodox Church especially the OCA. They are very much at the forefront of removing Latinizations and the restoration of the Liturgy to purity.

Dear Brian et al:

I attend St Andrew Russian Greek Cath Church in El Segundo and applaud Archimandrite Alexei for preserving the "Russian" traditions although hardly anyone at St Andrew is aware of what these traditions are ... where they came from and how they apply. After the liturgy on the first Sunday of each month Fr Alexei encourages a small gathering to open up questions regarding the liturgy and explanations which include the Russian tradition. I encourage my RC friends to attend this liturgy and stay for the class so that their questions can be appropriately answered by someone of authority. Hope you stop by St Andrew whenever you are in the Los Angeles area.

Christ is Risen!
David

Brian, I was speaking of within the Catholic communion and only on the basis of ecclesial jurisdiction. Of course liturgically, spiritually and theologically they would identify themselves more with the OCA and the ideals of Alexander Schmemann. I was merely making the jurisdictional comparison that between being subject to a Roman Catholic hierarchy canonically vs. the hierarchy of the Kyivan Church, the relationship more in line with the patrimony of the Russian Catholic Church would be the Kyivan, and I hope not the Roman.

Dear Stuart,

I thought some of your best friends are Jesuits, like Fr. Bob Taft!

Would you not agree that some of those Eastern Rite Jesuits know more about the Eastern Churches than we do ourselves?

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Alex

Dear Friends,

If Rome ever recognizes a "Kyivan Patriarchate" for the Ukrainian Catholic Church, and it will never recognize it, (yes, youz guyz are dreamin' in technicolour), it will, predictably, tend to be a very "Ukrainian" institution.

The Russian Catholics are way more "Eastern" than Ukrainians ever will be.

The fact is that "Easternization" to most Ukrainians is synonymous with "Russification" and of this they are deathly afraid.

It is not an issue with North American Eastern Christians for whom cultural identity of any kind is separate from their largely "liturgical" identity.

However, the "uncanonical" Orthodox Kyivan Patriarchate has proven that it can make room for other traditions and cultural identities. There the liturgy is celebrated not only in Ukrainian and Slavonic (the "Old Church" has been officially dropped there), but in Greek, English and some other languages.

Ukrainian Catholics are really the Church of Galicia whose cultural identity was strongly influenced by the nationalist movements of the later 19th century that saw the Church as a national institution.

Alex

Alex,
Slava Isusu Khrestu!
I've just read at RISU, that the president of Ukraine has participated in a meeting with Lubomyr Hussar, the metropolitans and bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. Patriarch Lubomyr asked the president for the governments assistance in supporting the construction of the Patriarchal residence and cathedral plus recognition of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarchate. President Kuchma said that the government is ready to help and colaborate.
At least that's what I understood. If the Ukrainian Greek Catholic faithful (which is not a small number) plus the Ukrainian government recognition of the patriarchate come before the Pope and Vatican officials, I cannot see how and why the Vatican would not accept and recognize a Ukrainian Patriarchate. What possible excuse will they come up with?

Lauro

Dear Lauro,

The Vatican diplomats can be very creative!

They are not going to alienate the Russian Orthodox over something like a Patriarchate for a proportionately small group of Ukrainian Greek Catholics.

President Kuchma invited the Pope to come to Ukraine at a time when his legitimacy and credibility were at a long time low.

It was understood that the Vatican would help him out in that department and it worked wonders for him, to be sure.

Kuchma feels more comfortable working with Ukrainian Catholics and their link to the internationally recognized Papacy and world-wide Catholic Church. Politically, it makes more sense for him to be nice to this Church, than even the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate (and never mind about the Kyivan Patriarchate!).

Kuchma may also feel that working with the Ukrainian Catholics is a good spring-board into Europe and the European Community.

So, from a political point of view, no matter what Kuchma does, Kuchma will do it for Kuchma's sake.

And it would not be the first time that our Church has built "patriarchal" institutions without anyone else having recognized or acknowledged our Church's patriarchal status.

Alex

Alex,
You might have a point, but we just can't sit back. I don't know if you are in favor of a Patriarchate or not but this time Rome really has no excuse for not recognizing a Patriarchate especially with Ukie Gorvenment approval independent of who is president. Maybe if other Byzantine Catholics put in their two cents in favor of a Ukie Patriarchate this would undoubtedly be of great importance.
Lauro

Dear Ipreima,

I was very active in the Patriarchal movement when Patriarch Josef Slipyj was alive and met with the Hieroconfessor on this subject.

(He sent me a hand-written letter to thank me for my efforts that I keep in a special place!).

There is the joy and the ideal in this matter. Then there are the religious/political realities.

Add to this the fact that the Western world has largely bought the view that the Ukrainian Catholic Church is a hold-over from Catholic domination of what is basically an Orthodox land.

But yes, all Ukrainian Catholics SHOULD support their Patriarchate.

There are many who don't and won't from well thought out (if ill-advised) positions. These are usually within the "Latin camp."

But there are enough of them around . . .

Alex

Alex,
I guess we just have to pray, wait and see. I hope that the Pope and the Vatican officials soften their hearts because we have proven with the blood of Ukrainian martyrs to be worthy of a Patriarchate. And for those who are not in favor of a Patriarchate, need to read more or maybe spend some time in Siberia as Patriarch Slipiy did.
Lauro