www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Kyivan Patriarchate

Dear Lauro,

When Patriarch Joseph the Confessor was in Toronto, he served a Divine Liturgy at the Exhibition Bandstand.

It was an extremely cold day, with a cold, blustery wind!

People were shaking in their shoes . . .

Then the Patriarch spoke up and said, "Some have told me it's a cold day today. But, really, in Siberia, this would be considered a great summer day . . ."

We continued standing at attention, ashamed of our weakness in standing up to the chill.

Some of the greatest opponents against a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate are Ukie Catholics themselves.

Some of their top ten reasons why we should NOT have one are:

1) The Ukrainian Church would fall apart if it had one;

2) Ukrainians would become more Orthodox and fall away from the Catholic Church;

3) We already have a Patriarch in the person of the Pope;

4) A Patriarch is related to the "Patria" or native land, in this case, Ukraine. Many Ukrainians are scattered around the world and thus would be outside the Patriarchate, creating a "second class" type of Ukrainian Catholic:

5) A Patriarchate only makes sense in Kyiv where St Andrew was and since Kyiv is Orthodox we should wait for an Orthodox Patriarchate there;

6) A Patriarchate would offend the Orthodox making it more difficult to bring them under Rome;

7) A Patriarchate would heighten already exacerbated divisions between Catholics and Orthodox since it would be seen as stepping on Orthodox territory;

8) A Patriarchate would give Ukrainian Catholics no new rights or privileges that they don't already have - Rome would continue to intervene in our affairs whenever it wanted to;

9) Does Ukraine need one more Patriarchate?

10) Our bishops would largely oppose the Patriarchate as this would threaten their fiefdoms.

Believe it, or not . . .

Alex

To Alex and Ipreima:

The Ukrainian Church's situation has, indeed, become more interesting!

A Ukrainian Patriarchate headquartered in Kyiv augurs well for the eventual re-unification of the entire Ukrainian Church.

But this scenario is pregnant with so many intricate possibilities that boggles MY mind:

--The Vatican, despite the exquisite leadership
displayed by Cardinal Husar, might be hedging
on the "premature" erection of a Catholic
patriarchate as an overt parallell hierarchical
organization, considering the current impasse
among the three Orthodox splinter groups.

--Although holding onto the Papal "train" does
guarantee an international (and European)
recognition, Catholics are still the minority
in Ukraine and I am unable to comprehend how
President Kuchma can mollify the Orthodox
majority. Or, are the two non-MP Orthodox
groups willing to re-unite with the Catholics
under Cardinal Husar as Patriarch? What
will "Patriarch" Filaret do? Will the UOC-MP be
amenable at all? A catastrophic storm looms on
the horizon, I think.

--I am ardently praying for a Vatican move to
encourage and abet a nationwide "conference"
among the hierarchies of the 4 groups (5, if we
include the Latins) and discuss and agree among
themselves on some sort of a "modus vivendi"
for the time being, hopefully leading to only
ONE Patriarchate for all of Ukraine and the
diaspora. What will happen to the Ruthenians,
Belorussians, and other culturally/ethnically
related Byzantine Catholics?

Am I naive or what?


AmdG

Alex,
Some of these replies are pretty good but not convincing. Patriarch also means "Father". For those who think that the Pope is the only Patriarch, then why do the Latins have a Patriarch in Jerusalem? For those who think that we become second class Ukrainians because of a Patriarchate is nonsenes, so what do they consider themselves to be now, 1st class? For those who think that we will become more orthodox instead of catholic,- We are orthodox in union with Rome. Inicially there might be a little friction between the other two true Ukrainian Orthodox Churches until they understand that this is only a process to complete and full unity with cooperation and mutual help, understanding and love. I think that today the bishops' oppinions in reference to the Patriarchate has been more favorable than in Slipiy's time, that shows that people are getting smarter. The rest of their reasons is just a lot of bushwah. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Lauro

Dear Amado,

You are not naive at all.

But you do use the terms "pregnant" and "premature erection" in your post.

Does this indicate a desire on your part to participate in the thread on birth control?

Actually, (O.K. stop laughing already and pay attention, it wasn't that funny! ), Russian churchmen have been quoted as lumping the Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholic Churches into one "Kyivan tradition" that, according to them, seems to be "pro-Western" (an allusion to the Kyivan Baroque period?) and even "pro-papal" (the 'uncanonical' Patriarch did bless his flock to attend the papal services in Ukraine).

Alex

I think this should be explored more, why is it?


Some of these are valid concerns, and even if you do not agree to treat them as a joke belittles those who espouses them creating a further rift within the community.

Why not attempt to address these concerns before one tries to force something upon them.

Anyways, don't some of your Ukie Catholics already call your Major Archibishop, Patriarch.

And isn't his see Lviv?


David

Dear Lauro,

I agree with you, those arguments are bushwah or forest gump!

But there are those of us in our Particular Church who are not as Eastern as us two . . .

They do not like the idea of a Church that is in union with Rome and yet has the responsibility to think for itself.

I just don't think Rome will agree to this, no matter what our bishops say or do.

And without that agreement, and this is a contradiction, our Church will not achieve her full Particular status and Patriarchy.

I remember way back when before Stuart left us (he's back, in case you haven't heard ) when he said that our Church should have just beatified those New Martyrs even without Rome or the Pope's participation.

When our bishops have the "umpf" to do that, then we will have a Patriarchy in fact as well as on paper.

Alex

As a side note Alex,

How are the laity and clergy of the Ukrainian Catholic Church as well as the multiple Orthodox jurisdictions reacting to the Synod of Bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church currently going on in Kyiv?


David

ps do we now call it chicken kyiv or is it still chicken kieve? :p

[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear Amdg,
I believe that other Byzantines would have an option of remaining as they are or coming under the omophor of the Kyivan Patriarchate with a most probable autonomy because of tradition and language. The problem of married men in the priesthood would most likely come to an end for the Ruthenians and other Byzantines of Slavic tradition. I think it's an option.
Regards,
Lauro

Dear David,

It's Chicken Kyiv with capitals!

I don't treat any of this as a joke, as it sometimes brings tears to my eyes.

The ten reasons are reasons I've come across and that is why I've listed them.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church has both a pro-Eastern wing and a pro-Western wing. A patriarchate is a pro-Eastern institution which is a major part of the reason why the pro-Western wing basically either a) doesn't want it or b) will accept ONLY if Rome approves it first.

The best resolution of all worlds here is if Rome agreed to approve the Patriarchate.

The pro-Eastern wing will say it is a victory for all their efforts aimed at defending our Eastern traditions.

The pro-Western wing will say it is a tribute to Rome's benevolent love for our Church in having approved of a Patriarchate.

The Ukrainian Orthodox of the uncanonical Churches have no problem with their brothers in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

The canonical but wrongly named "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" of the Moscow Patriarchate (since there is nothing Ukrainian about it, including the language they use) sees this as "another Vatican ploy to extend evil, grasping, conniving hand into heart of (Russian) Orthodox heartland."

Perhaps they are right . . .

As for what the pro-Western Ukrainian Catholics want or don't want, they SHOULD want to return to their Eastern traditions as the Rome they say they adhere to has asked them to do in the Vatican II documents and elsewhere.

As I see it anyway. . .

What's the matter, Dave, lost interest in the birth control debate?

Alex

David,
The only guys that are probably chewing their nails now are the Basilians.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

And don't forget the Redemptorists, the Oblates of Mary Immaculate, the Salesians (how could YOU forget them?) and the Sister Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary!

Alex

Alex,
I know what you mean, there is the same thing in the Melkite Church, which tends to be amplified at my current parish.

Bishop John, as has been mentioned in another thread, seems to be of the pro-Western wing while Bishop Nicholas is of the Neo-Orthodox (as the Melkites put it) wing.

It has polarized in the parish with pro-western people talking about musical instruments, shortening of the liturgy (why must we repeat things so much, one Lord have Mercy should be good enough, or why repeat what the Deacon says?), female altar servers, and such things.

While the neo-orhtodox members cringe at any mention of the words Catholic, Pope, Catechism, or of any Saint of the West. They also find it strange that a Catholic Study Bible would have commentary from St Basil, St Ephirm, St John Chrysostom, and other Eastern Saints.



As for that, I have spoken. :p

And as you said, we may approach things differently and use different terms to explain them, but that doesn't mean that we do not have the same beliefs.


Your brother in Christ,
David

Alex,
I can't comment on them. We don't have them down here in Brazil. Of course I wasn't talking about all Basilians. I know a few Basilians that are really nice,and of course there are those who were very important in our church and rightiously beatified and there are those who are for the Patriarchate as well.
Lauro

Dear David,

"Neo-Orthodox" - now that's a term I haven't heard before - thank you! Now my day won't be completely wasted!

I personally like "Orthodox Catholic" - now where did I see someone use that term . . .

But you know what I mean, as you obviously.

Your Church, at least, has a Patriarchate.

Sniff . . .

Alex

It was really nice talking to you guys today, but I've got a doctor's appointment. Talk to you guys tommorrow. 10/4 and out.
Lauro