www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Kyivan Patriarchate

Several comments and questions:

Why would the title "Patriarch" be appropriate for Metropolitan Andrei? Also, he was NOT a martyr.

Looking at the members of the Holy Synod, all are in favour of the Patriarchate (except Danylak and the others who don't come to the sessions). Some bishops don't commemorate Lubomyr as Patriarch because they want to play by the book. So it doesn't really matter if people are opposed to a Patriarchate.

Alex, I think you just have bad memories of police, Bishop Basil's (Losten) ordination, and other such events, and this has made you fear being openly pro-Patriarchate.

Also, I believe that Rome has given up on Moscow since it realizes that no matter what Rome does, Moscow will still react with stupidity and foolishness. In the words of some people, Rome has decided to "cut its loses" and quit bowing down to Moscow.

Daniil

My dear young fellow, Daniil . . .

Met. Andrej was, in fact, a hierarch with patriarchal powers that extended throughout the vast expanse of the once powerful Russian Empire. He was, in fact, a patriarch without the title. The opposite was true of the Hieroconfessor Joseph.

I always was and always will be OPENLY PRO-PATRIARCHAL! I won't go to a parish where the patriarch is not commemorated.

But, unlike SOME members of our younger, less experienced, tender-footed generation, I am "PRO-REALITY."

Just because you are an expert on all things Orthodox, doesn't mean you don't have a lot to learn about the geopolitical context in which this entire debate is situated.

And it is so "Ukrainian" to want to impute motives in others who are simply pointing out some historically-confirmed reality checks.

I wish all Ukrainians could come together in a single Patriarchate based on Kyiv. I wish Ukrainian Catholics could join with them, even if this meant loosening the "ties that smother" with the Vatican. I wish this Patriarchate could then have relations with other Patriarchates throughout the world, including Rome etc.

Daniil, I was writing on behalf of the Patriarchal movement when you were still a gleem in the eyes of your yet unmarried parents.

If reality is something we don't wish to discuss, or if we won't allow alternative views or future possibilities to be aired, then how can we be prepared for the eventuality that the best laid Ukie plans won't work out as we wish?

And what will we say when they don't?

At least Patriarch Huzar is realistic enough to want Rome to come out and approve our Patriarchate.

If it doesn't, what will happen then? Do we continue on blissfully hoping that Rome will approve it in another decade or more? What will the impact be?

The question is - can many of us continue to be Ukrainian Catholics once Rome's true intentions with respect to our Church are made manifest in such a way so as to leave NO DOUBT in anyone's mind?

So please, keep your imputations of motive in your pocket.

If you don't want to discuss the realities of the past and how they will impact the future, just forget it.

Alex

Alex,
Do you know Hussar? or does anybody on this thread know him? I mean what would his probable reactions be to a NO! from the Vatican. Does anybody have his e-mail?
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

I don't really know him, but my wife is related to him and her family were invited to attend his elevation.

I rather think the Vatican, emerging with newly restored talks with Moscow, won't say "No" to a Ukrainian Patriarchate, but "Nyet."

And I think Huzar will simply say, "Let's try and try again."

So let's pray for the blessing of . . . guts!

Alex

Alex,
Just maybe getting off the thread a little. In one of the pictures that I saw in RISU "President Kuchma with the bishops of UGCC", I noticed two metropolitans with white kamylavkas and there seemed to be one wearing a blue kamylavka and if I'm not mistaken Kyr Losten wears a red one at times. My question is: Who wears what and what color?
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Alas, I am a reject of the seminary.

As a matter of fact, I never got in the front door. That is my excuse for not knowing an answer to your question.

But someone like Daniil would know, I am sure!

Alex

Ever read Don Quixote? Well, at least speaking for myself, I will continue to "joust the windmills" for my church regardless of what society or even my own people say about "reality".

The Apostles and their inheritors of the early church were often told by society and even their own people of the folly of what they were doing. But did they give up, or cease to dream? Even to the point of giving their lives?

The blood of the Kyivan martys cannot and will not be in vain.

[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

[ 07-11-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Dear Alex,

I am very sorry for my comments which caused unrest and conflict. I am sorry. I never intended to hurt anyone. For this I am sorry.

I always thought you would be the one to never give up hope in the future official recognition by Rome of the Patriarchate. I think it will happen soon.

What can I say? I am Ukrainian and prone to do things Ukrainians would do. I am also young and foolish.

All members of the Forum, please forgive me.

Daniil

Could you post the address for that picture of Kuchma with the bishops?

Dear Randolph,

Forgive me, Reverend Father Subdeacon.

With regrets,

Alex

[ 07-11-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Daniil,
You will find two pictures on this site. On the second picture it seems to me that someone is using a blue Kamylavka. the site is:
www.kuchma.gov.ua/main/?photos589. [kuchma.gov.ua]
Lauro

I won't go away mad, my brother, and I ask your forgiveness for my impudence. I intended no personal attacks, if I have in fact done so. I ask for your prayers. This topic is close to home for me, I'll admit. And as for my last statement, I was talking about myself only-too much talk and not enough action. Daj Bozhe Z'dorovya, Alexei.

[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Alex,

What are Rome's true intentions for our church?

ALity

I'm not sure that I understand clearly all this hand-wringing and kvetching about a Patriarchate in Kiev and who is going to do what about it.

Speaking historically, (yes, Alex, I too am of the older persuasion), if there is any ecclesiastical community that deserves its own patriarchate, then it is Kiev. The Romanians, Bulgarians and Serbs have theirs!

It seems to me that the Ukrainians are being overly polite in this whole issue; afraid to offend Rome; afraid to offend Moscow. Afraid that if someone makes a move, then "the neighbors" in Ukraine will have apoplexy.

I think that whoever has the guts to move to Kiev and establish a Kievan patriarchate will find that the vast majority of Ukrainians will be supportive. (For those who aren't, tough.)

My suspicion is, if the cards are played right, that the Ukrainians should "offer" mutual communion with Rome and Constantinople as the 'sine qua non' of the establishment. Moscow will have collective diahrrea; and there will be squads of ambulances heading for the Roman dicastries. But I suspect that Constantinople will be more or less welcoming (as will the minor patriarchates of Constantinople, i.e., Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc.) and once the Romaniaks wake up and face the reality, they'll come around (although much of this Roman response will depend upon who sits at the throne of Peter). Hopefully it will still be John Paul, who has intimate knowledge of Eastern European politics.

Let's face it: if there is any ethnic group that deserves patriarchal status in light of its past fidelity in the face of persecution, then it is the Kievan Church.

From my lips to God's ears.

Blessings!!

As for the Byelorussians and "the others", including the Ruthenians, don't worry about them. Just get the patriarchate established and let them worry about how they'll affiliate or not.

There is an old poster showing a lot of ducklings meandering about. The caption read: "Lead, follow or get out of the way."

[And, I'd be willing to wager that when this blessed event happens, the Melkites will once again gird up their loins and do what needs to be done since they won't be totally alone in their Easternness.]

Dr John,
Very interesting point on mutual communion with Rome and Constantinople. I'm for it. Let's see if everyone else is.
Lauro

I think that the mutual communion issue is quite germane. The facts remain: 1. the Ukrainians are a large group of people; 2. They are very generous in supporting their Church; 3. They have been dumped upon by a host of factions 'in the name of Christ'; 4. They have a real (not Johnny-come-lately) claim as the Mother Church of the northern Slavonia; 5. They suffered for the faith like no one else except perhaps for the Armenians (who DO have their own patriarch); 6. They suffered persecution from the communists for a very long time, but NEVER wavered from their belief in Christ and His Church.

So, who else has the RIGHT to say: "this is how it's going to be" but the Ukrainians? And, unless there is a collective psychosis in the rest of Christianity, then the powers that be will have to ask themselves: what can we do to support this community of long-persecuted believers?

Anything less than full embrace in love and 'permission' to be WHO THEY ARE is just not acceptable.

Blessings!

(PS: I'm of Greek background; not Ukrainian. No personal axe to grind.)