www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Kyivan Patriarchate

Alex,

I am waiting . . .

Dear Ality,

Sorry about that, Chief!

But after I got dumped on regarding this admittedly emotional issue, I was rather reticent to return to it . . .

Before I respond, I wanted to ask the forgiveness of Subdeacon Randolph for my unChristian reaction to him, I ask for his forgiveness and pray every blessing on him and his family in his ministry in the Ukrainian Catholic Church!

I am truly a worm and no man . . .

And you would be happy to know that the Administrator is working with me to better ensure that I behave, in future, as if I were a normal human being . . .

O.K., got that off my "hrudy."

I think Rome's true intentions for our Church will be laid bare when its final decision about our Patriarchate will come down sometime, hopefully, soon.

If the answer is an unqualified "No" or "Not right now," then I think our people and lay leaders will be within their rights to draw their own conclusions, as many already have in the past.

If the answer is a "No," or "Not right now," how would you respond and what would you say to the Vatican, Ality?

Will you be happy with that decision? Or, more to the point, will it be acceptable to you? Do you think it should be acceptable to the Ukrainian Church?

What would be the next step following such a decision?

I say we should wait and see. And, again, if I'm wrong in my own prediction, you can contact Subdeacon Randolph and the two of you can come up with a suitable penance for me.

Alex

Dear Dr. John,

Thank you for your sympathetic and (as always) intelligent and incisive comments.

Fr. Petro Bilaniuk and others would have naturally agreed with you.

Fr. Bilaniuk even made the point that Ukrainians should set up their own "Catholicosate" that would have universal jurisdiction over all Ukies world-wide (as the Oriental Orthodox Churches have).

And then this Kyivan Catholicos-Patriarch ("Kyiv" not "Kiev" right but I readily forgive you!), could establish communion with whichever patriarchates he wishes, including Constantinople and Rome.

That was his view for which, as I understand, he suffered significantly from the leadership of his own Church before his death.

If all Ukrainians had the Eastern awareness of Fr. Bilaniuk - and you - such a project would have been realized long ago.

Alex

I heard that the following was supposed to happen at the Synod:

- The Synod prepared a document about a Patriarchate for all members to look over. (This actually happened.)
- Then all vote on the document and creation of a Patriarchate.
- Since there is no major opposition, the Patriarchate would be created by the Synod (like in 1918 in Moscow).
- Then, Patriarch Lubomyr would write a letter to Rome asking for full communion between the two hierarches, both being Patriarchs, as Orthodox Churches do.

This is where I interupted the person who was telling me this (a reliable source) and asked: "What if Rome says 'no'? Are we Orthodox then?" I guess they didn't think of that.

Anyways, there has been no news from the Synod, so I will assume that we still do not have an Patriarchate recognized by Rome.

Daniil

Rumour is indeed "the swiftest traveller of all the ills on earth."

Dear Daniil,

But remember my offer to do penance for my earlier negative view, Friend!

You can work with Ality and Diak on a suitable one, should the Patriarchate be recognized.

King Henry II walked barefoot to a monastery after his implication in the murder of St Thomas Becket.

When he got there, every monk had the privilege of whipping him once across his bare back.

So what I'm saying is, in the event that this should work out, be creative with my penance

Or perhaps I'll ask the Pope what his take is on all this?

How do you say "Kyivan Patriarchate" in correct Polish?

Alex

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Daniil,

Amen!!!

Did I read correctly that Patriarch Lubomyr will be in Toronto for World Youth Day? Wouldn't that be a grand place to announce the Patriarchate? Right in Patriarch Alex's front yard!!!!

Rome does do things slowly, but then, leaders usually agree on things privately, making a public announcement after all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. Maybe the back room talks are farther along than we think. John Paul II has had deep affection for the Ukrainian Church since the years of Patriarch Josyf. In his last years, maybe he would want to reward the faithful of the Gulag.

I've expressed my views in favor of a Patriarchate several times on this forum. I will continue to pray for it. Of course, if it does happen, Moscow will have a cow, or maybe a herd?

Have a Blessed Day!!!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear John Two-Lungs,

Blessings and felicitations my son!

Your proposition for my "elder brother" His Holiness John Paul II of Old Rome to announce a Patriarchate here in our patriarchal jurisdiction of Toronto and all Ontario is interesting.

One would hope that if such an event would occur, that all the competent local and autocephalous church authorities would be notified and invited to the announcement.

And on my front lawn? Hmmm . . . Perhaps I should get Episcopa Tanya to mow it over the weekend . . .

Pray for an abundant outpouring of Grace on all the participants of World Youth Day in this our humble patriarchal abode.

And we impart to you, ecumenical brother, our humble apostolic blessing,

+Alexios
Patriarch of Toronto and all Ontario

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Alex,

Perhaps I am reading into your statements about this incorrectly. It seems to me that you have an idea of Rome's "true intentions" for our church. I would like to know what you think they are. Perhaps you have no idea and I am reading into your statements that you have a definite opinion on this matter.

I personally think that we should not ask Rome for approval of a patriarchate. We should declare our church patriarchal and elevate MA Lybomyr to the status of official patriarchate within our church claiming universal jurisdiction with the Synod anywhere there is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in the world.

Next, we should send notice, or whatever the proper ecclesial term is, to all the sui juiris Churches in the Catholic communia and request that each patriarch, or head of the Church, recongize the new patriarchate. That is my opinion. Perhaps I do not understand proper Eastern ecclesiology, but alas that is the way I see it.

If Rome does not recognize our right to self governance, then we should enlighten them that Ukraine is no longer under the rule of a foriegn Polish (Roman Catholic) theocracy and that perhaps the conditions of the unia are no longer appropos.

ALity

ALity,
Very strong position, but maybe that's exactly what we need. Unfortunately, the Ukrainian community down here in Brazil are not familiar with what's happening in our church in Ukraine. They do not have an idea of what a patriarchate is or what it means and what possible changes would occur if we had one.
Lauro

Dear Ality,

Yes, but we've done that before with Patriarch Josef the Confessor and to no avail.

If we recognize ourselves as a Patriarchate, no one will recognize us as everyone knows we are "under" Rome and Rome has the final say on these matters.

To do as you have said MIGHT mean that we wish to separate from Rome and that would divide our Church - Patriarch Husar won't do it, he wants Rome to approve our Patriarchate - PERIOD.

Rome's intentions toward our Church has ALWAYS been that of an ecclesial experiment.

They tried to see if they could unite Moscow to Rome by experimenting with our Church in 1596.

That didn't work out, as they readily admit today.

We are now second-fiddle and not on Rome's priority list.

If we left Rome now and rejoined our Orthodox Mother Church, Rome would not care, and everyone else would cheer.

Alex

So are you saying that the whole purpose of the unia was to unite Moscow to Rome, that we were just guinea pigs?

Where is Rome's priority?

If Rome does'nt care whether we are Catholic or Orthodox, why do we stick around. To me your point of view sounds like someone who has a boyfirend or girlfriend they don't really want, yet they never break up with.

If Rome does not want us, nor deal with us, why do they keep us around?

ALity

Ality said:
"If Rome does not want us, nor deal with us, why do they keep us around?"

So we can the be ecummenical bridge to one of Rome's most important priorities (in my opinion at least) Moscow.

But at least JPII went to Ukrayina last summer. But at least he Beatified some of our martyrs. But at least his visit boosted the morale of our church.

So what do we do? Do we rejoin our Mother Orthodox Church? or Do we work from the inside (UGCC) to outside (Rome, the world, etc.)?

So why don't we work from the inside out, get our numbers back up and double then what it was in the 'golden age', reform, and grow. Let the bishops deal with Rome. Let the priests minister. Let the people grow.

Just my 2 cents,
ukrainiancatholic

An ecumenical bridge? More like an ecumenical booby-trap. If there is one thing that the ROC most loathes, most despises, would like to see wiped off the face of the earth forevermore, it is our church. How can we be an ecumenical bridge? The Russian Church hates us. Moscow would probably be more akin approaching unity with Rome, if we did not exist.

Judging by all the attention EWTN gave to the tension between Moscow and Rome during the papal visit to Ukraine, rather than highlight a universal example of faithful Catholic endurance in the face of persecution that is our church, I would begrudgingly agree with you. But how on earth do they see us as an ecumenical bridge? Perhaps if they recognized our patriarch, but that would go against Alex's position which I so eagerly wish to be enlighted with!

Thank you JPII for boosting our morale and beautifing our saints. It was a good thing. But should we not be doing that ourselves?

Working from the inside out is a great thing, but first we need to do a moral housecleaning of our church and recognize that "Everything in our church is not as it should be" in the words of our patriarch at the sobor. We cannot build up our numbers if we keep our faith as an ethno-cultural Ukrainian Museum. We will only further decline in all areas outside of Ukraine and the ethnolinguistic territory of Ukrainians in Asia and Eastern Europe if we insist on this.

What is the "Golden Age" of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (1596-present)?

just curious???

ALity

[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

When I meant Golden Age, I meant my parents generation. She went to a Ukr. Cath. elementar school from K-8. This is when new churches in the suburbs were being built, churches packed, youth groups, parades, picnics, missions. I am saying between 1945 to about 1970. This is when the DP's were having kids and so on.

Ok Moscow hates us, so what? I am not fond of thier high back clad priests or KGB patriarchs but what are you gonna do?

Maybe our bishops should just be doing there own thing, not always having to check up with Rome (kind of when Patriarch Joseph concecrated Fr. Husar a bishop in secret).

Whatever. Change takes time.

Now don't start in on high-backed vestments, I'll take those any day. I've heard they were originally from central and eastern Ukraine, anyway, when a baba put too much starch in the priest's felon in Poltava, a new vestment craze was born...

Our hierarchs need to have the courage to take the initiative. We should simply proclaim the Patriarchate by an act of the Synod and send a representative (or the Patriarch himself) to Rome to proclaim the communion of our Patriarch with Rome. Proclaim communion, not submission.

"From the very beginnings of Kyivan Christianity the Ukrainian Catholic Church, in its relations with other Churches, has had two dimensions, particularity and communion" - from the Cathechetical Directory of the Ukrainian Catholic Church