www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West 10 Reasons I'm Eastern Catholic

Alex,
You write too much for me to digest it all at once. But I wanted quickly to clarify one point. I am talking about the formation about the formation of a Ukraine independent of Russia in the post-Soviet era. I suggest that this would not have happened without the UGCC. Do you disagree?

Dear djs,

Oh, that independent Ukraine!

As a Ukrainian Catholic, would I deny that the UGCC didn't have a role to play in maintaining Ukrainian national identity etc.?

I would have to answer to a lot if I did!

But I see both the UGCC and the Ukrainian autocephalous Orthodox movement on the same plane in that respect - the UGCC played its part in Western Ukraine as the strongest, dominant Church there.

The strong national character of the UGCC today is a fact and I'm proud that it is.

Alex

The effects of Brest and the Latinizations that came after it led to the point that Eastern Catholics face such a struggle today to get rid of Latinizations in both theological and liturgical matters. I applaud the efforts to get rid of Latinization but the results of Brest (and nationalistic factors) did give a strong mentality to the people that anything truly Eastern Christian was too "Orthodox"

Also, I think you skipped over Alex's point about the mentality of uniatism too quickly. This mentality of being "2nd class Catholics" DID and does exist still in quarters of the Eastern Catholic Churches. This idea wrought widespread havoc on the liturgical and especially, theological life of Eastern Catholics.

Alex, I thought you'd see my point.

No - we don't. Otherwise it would be done. And there would be no need talking about it trying "to get there".

It is that simple.

The stumbling blocks are ego pride, no desire to understand the other, no trust in Jesus' prayer, non-forgiveness, misunderstanding, self importance, self-sainthood, self-appointment, self-honor, following human logic, and the all encompassing benefits to be gained by the continuation of division.

The stumbling block - is our lack of desire to do God's will. Period.

We are not subject to dead things. We are not subject to documents, agreements, history, opinions, wounds, or anything else - unless we select to make these things our gods and seek their �permission� first.

Do you see my point Alex?

Live the union of the church in your own heart - and documents and intellectual arguments other-wise be damned (and I am sure they will).

There is no way to intellectually justify what began as sin and continues as sin. There is no way to de-sin it. We are not fooling God - only ourselves.

-ray

Dear Brian,

I can only repeat that this shocks me, and is totally alien to my own experience - where any suggestion about deficiency, about needing something, to be first-class, would have been countered with a fierce earful of "Ne treba!"
(Don't need nuthin'!).

But this is different. The West has had a vitality that has and does spill over. The point is a broad one. Does the popularity of McDonanld's in China indicate feelings of being second class in cuisine? Hardly. Unless one deliberately resists any cross-talk, there will be some. How threatening is this cross-talk?

We, naturally, do have liturgical and para-liturgical accretions that can be connected to this cross-talk. I think it is fair to say, however, that such accretions cannot be characterized as "havoc", but are better characterized, after several hundreds of years of communion, as being rather limited. (Far more so, for example, than the Byzantinization of the Alexandrian and Antiochian EO churches.) At the same time, the West has certainly also impacted practices within Orthodoxy (kneeling, organs, icon-pantings, choral singing,...). I think this is also true in theology. My own, limited, experience is that I just don't see enomous deviations between BC and, e.g, OCA practice. But then again, I am not parsing at the level of candles in the sand vs. racks.

Theology? I don't think we, as a church, have done all that much theologizing, to say one way or other. The intellectual currents of the West had a more profound impact on Russian thology than on us. But this leads me to a question:
how much of Orthodoxy's appeal to Western inquirers is connected to the its potential of providing a sort of post-modern (anti-Western) approach to Christianity? (Western thinking is frequently lampooned here, but without it we would not be in virtual contact.)

If de-latinizing is a "struggle", that struggle is linked IMO to the difficulty in the non-trivial sorting out particular developments of a legitimate, particular church opposed to a simplistic view that, in effect, posits that any post-union developments that are not evidenced in essentially all Orthodox churches are inherently illegitimate. I oppose the latter view, vehemently, as it implies the illegitimacy of Eastern Catholic churches as churches. (At the same time I am completely on board with countering the abbreviations, suppression of pre-snatified, vespers etc. that has occurred in the US.) And I suspect, that the criticism of "too Orthodox" - although I have never heard that comment myself - is really a short-hand, clumsy, and most unfortunate way of making the same objection.

As far as the fear of being criticized as being "too Orthodox," my RC relatives criticize me and my Orthodox relatives for being "too Catholic!" (Go figure!)

OTOH, I can't repeat what my BC relatives say about us Orthodox relatives in polite company.

OrthodoxEast

OE:
Perhaps you devotion and faithful practice awakens in them a sense of their own laxity. This is a very good thing.

I am glad to see that you are enjoying your liturgical restorations (from another thread.) Hope you don't mind if I express surprise that things could deteriorate so, even without the Unia and Latin onslaught.

Dear djs,

It happened over the course of time, the same pastor, who had achieved status as the most senior priest in the entire diocese, in this parish for just over 40 years!!! He wouldn't ever permit a Supply Priest to come in and substitute for him when he went on vacation either (his unauthorized abbreviations and rubrical abuses might have been found out). Instead, he had the Archdeacon resident in this, his home parish, serve the Typika, but w/o any distribution of Holy Communion. The parishioners thought that whatever Fr. ___ had done was entirely correct--it was all some of them had known for 3 generations. Correcting the abuses is going ahead steadily but slowly with our new priest, who was appointed for our parish by the Metropolitan himself.

OrthodoxEast

reply: Really, Alex, all I was trying to do by listing such a reason, is to be honest with myself. My being in communion with my wife has always played a major part of my deliberations in ecclesiastical membership.

It'd be more impressive if I could jot down 10 theologically earth-shaking reasons. But in truth, not all my reasons are theological. Some are quite practical. I'm not ashamed to admit this. I'm sure if more people were really honest about their Church allegiances, they'd also admit such practical reasons. Don't you think, brother?

reply: All valid points, brother, and worthy of note. But this is history and history is something I can not change or undo. I can only deal with what I've been dealt. I can only approach God from my own historical situation that I find myself in.

My list is an accounting (first and foremost to myself) of how I am accounting and dealing with what I've been dealt. I'm an Eastern Catholic and there must be reasons for this affiliation. The above was my feeble attempt to list out those reasons as honestly as possible.

In Christ's Light,

Ghazar

p.s. I almost forgot. Actually from my experience the facts are reversed from that of your Ukranian. In many ways the Armenians who united with Rome (especially the Mekhitarists) preserved not only authentic Armenian Christianity but also much of our ancient language and culture. One Armenian Orthodox writer described the Mekhitarist contribution to Armenian learning, theology and scholarship, "inestimable." Therefore the "uniate" situation in our circumstance had great positive results that probably never could've resulted without it.

Dear Steve and RayK,

Thanks for sharing your wisdom with me. I think Ray's last post is something every Christian should give deep consideration to. If our hearts were truly with Christ, unity would not be so difficult. I'm with you when you say:

"Live the union of the Church in your own heart"

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Ghazar

Dear Ghazar,

Yes, I was not criticizing you in any way, brother!

And I was responding ONLY from the Ukie experience with the Union of Brest.

I am aware of the deep honour in which the Mekhitarists are held. And to criticize the Union of Brest does not mean that the contributions of Ukrainian Cathiolic leaders are not acknowledged by Ukr. Orthodox leaders and vice-versa.

And, yes, practical considerations are tantamount in matters religious!

Alex

Dear RayK,

You are being a bit silly here, don't you think?

You mean you actually believe we all have the same vision of church unity and, for sinful, egotistic and other reasons, just resist its implementation?

One CANNOT ever separate the interpretation of the unity of the Church from its objective status.

Roman Catholics and Orthodox are not in union because they both share sincerely held differences in points of faith and ecclesiology.

In holding onto their conscience, even while seeking out dialogue, they are being truly faithful to what they each see as the Will of Christ for His Church.

We don't know who is right here.

But we do know that someone is wrong!

Alex

Dear djs,

Unfortunately, many traditional Ukie Catholics with a strong patriarchalist bent would eat you without salt for some of your views!

I would use only the best, first-class seasoning, however . . .

Alex

Really, which ones?

Alex, if they ventured to take a bite, I think that they would find me to be very disagreeable.