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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel!
Another rub here is that the issue of prevenient Grace is not an issue regarding Augustine at all.
The issue is really only about the extent to which Original Sin ravaged human nature - and there is a difference between Augustine and the Cappadocian Fathers here to be sure.
It is not a matter of private opinion among us, but a difference of perspective among the Fathers themselves.
And Augustine, especially when dealing with the Mystery of the Trinity, did not lay claim to being infallible on this and other topics.
The issue of being true to the Gospel is one that is not separate from that of the interpretation of the Gospel by the Fathers or the Church. They are all part of the same continuum of Tradition.
Alex
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Alex, haven't you evaded the issue, though? We are no longer just talking about Augustine. We are talking about the canons of the Council of Orange [ creeds.net] , which specifically excluded the semipelagian position of John Cassian & Company. How does the Orthodox view of synergism, as you have articulated it, escape the condemnations of Orange?
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Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel!
I hope I'm not evading the issue, but I'm trying not to make it more than it is - as you, forgive me, seem to want to do.
St John Cassian was not a "semipelagian" and he is honoured as a saint not only in the East but also locally in southern France.
He did oppose Augustine on Grace, but that doesn't make him "semipelagian" anymore than St Basil and the Gregories were that.
The Council of Orange does not oppose the Cappadocian Fathers or the Eastern Church or St John Cassian.
If you have a specific reference where you think there is such an opposition, we can talk about it.
Pelagianism and Semipelagianism assert that human nature is not damaged by original sin.
That is not the teaching of the Orthodox Catholic Church of the East. Original Sin has to do with the impact of Adam's personal sin of disobedience on our human nature that we share in common with our Forefather, death, concupiscence etc.
The Grace of God is not wholly absent from us when we are born, however, and we are totally dependent on it, especially through the sacraments and the life of Grace provided us via the Church.
Please show us how the Council of Orange contradicts any of that?
Alex
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Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel,
I've read and re-read the Canons of Orange.
There is nothing in them that contradicts what the Eastern Church has always believed about the Grace of God being "gift" to us.
I would contend that it is the later Protestant reading into some of what Augustine said or "extreme Augustinianism" that MAY be colouring your view of the Eastern Church.
Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,
Alex
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Excellent! I'm delighted we are in agreement and delighted to have that potential stumbling block removed! Thanks, Alex.
So how do you want the blessing communicated? :-)
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Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel! Some nice words would be fine!  We Easterners begin and end any conversation with clergy with a request for a blessing, even when it is over the phone. Do Anglican clergy use the Christogram in making a blessing? I mean with the two fingers extended, blah, blah, blah? I see more RC priests using it, even though I understood only the Pope blessed in that way. Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing, Alex
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
I don't wish to resurrect this dialogue, but I do want to point out that the second Synod of Orange was a local Western council and formulated its response in Western-Augustinian terms. The conception of human nature it assumes is not how the Greek Fathers or the Holy Scriptures portray man. Based on this assumption, it comes very close to enunciating a monergistic understanding of salvation.
Unlike Alex, I am unwilling to say that the view expressed by the bishops at Orange is entirely consistent with the Orthodox/Greek patristic view.
En te tou Christou agape,
Theophilos
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