www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are we really in Communion?

I have an important Question mainly for Byzantine Catholics, but also for the Pius and Orthodox Christians that are not in Communion with Rome. Liberal Roman/Protestants please refrain from posting, at least for a while.
My question is basically, "Are the Byzantine Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church REALLY in Communion? (In this case I don't mean "Are the Byzantine Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church in Communion, or are the Byzantine Catholic Churches under Rome? But rather are the Eastern Churches and the Roman Church Physically, Spiritually, Theologically, etc. in Communion?)

My observation is that the so called Roman Catholic Church is experiencing a Neo-Iconoclasm and other major problems. Whereas, the Byzantine Catholic Churches are far from free of problems, but aren't Neo-Iconoclasts, and don't practice/preach many of the most major problems in the "Roman Catholic Church."


So, are the Eastern Catholic Churches Really in Communion with the "Roman Catholic Church?" And, how do Byzantine Catholics justify their association with a Church that does things that gravely contradict the Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox Faith/Traditional Roman Catholic Faith? Do Byzantine Catholics that uphold their belief that the Catholic Church is the Right Church to be in Communion with (rather than the Orthodox Church such as the Ecumenical Patriarchate, but realize that the Roman Catholic Church is in serious error as it has deviated from its Traditional (Yes with a capital T) beliefs and practices in the last 50 years, have an obligation to sever ties with the "Roman Catholic Church?" If so, should the Byzantine Catholic Churches join with the Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome, or stand alone neither in Communion with Rome nor with Constantinople, Moscow, etc.?

Oh, and by the way, as far as I know, the Byzantine Catholic Metroplia of Pittsburgh has 4 Eparchies free of Altar Girls! (= 100% Whoohoo!)

But rather are the Eastern Churches and the Roman Church Physically, Spiritually, Theologically, etc. in Communion?)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I would have to lean towards "no" on that one.

I can tell you that, having been regularly attending a Byzantine Rite parish for three and a half years, I defintely feel that the Byzantine Rite has more in common with Orthodoxy than with Roman Catholicism. I actually feel quite alienated from Roman Catholicism, spiritually... I know this is going to raise some hackles, but I've sort of some to view Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as two sides of the same coin-- especially since the latter half of the 20th century.

The West and the East simply think in different theological languages.

BTW, if my parish were to close (and that may be a possibility in the not-to-distant future) I would go Orthodox. I simply belong in the East.

Karen

Each Church has the authority and ability to regulate discipline within that Church. Some of the things you describe are perhaps matters of individual diocesan or parochial discipline.

Out here in the Midwest, you will find the Latin dioceses to be quite traditional and Catholic - Latin Indults and the Fraternity of St. Peter, lots of churches with intact altars and statues, etc.

I suppose if one really believed the Roman Church had abandoned "Big T" Tradition and deviated from the truth, one would have to act on that conclusion. It comes down to a matter of faith with this communion business.

We Greek Catholics often have a triple cross - that of being in communion with a Rome that often does not understand us, and doesn't always treat us fairly (i.e. Ostpolitik, recognizing our Synods and Patriarchal elections, dealings with the diaspora, etc.) - that of our minority compared to the much greater RCs - and thirdly, our often rocky relationship with the Orthodox, often spurned as "Uniates".

If we believe "so that all may be one" we take steps of faith to see that through. For me that is best lived out by the Petrine Ministry, and my Eucharistic communion with that ministry.

That does not eliminate my particular identity as an Eastern Catholic, and while often on a local level things may not be smooth, what is actually coming from the Petrine Ministry encourages us to keep our authentic Eastern identity (i.e. Orientalium Dignitas, Orientale Lumen, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, etc.

I certainly respect my Orthodox brethren who choose the path to see the maxim of our Lord through within whichever Orthodox Church they decide.

May she who reconciled opposites, the Holy Theotokos, save and protect her scattered flock.
FDD

When I am in a Roman Catholic church these days, I often feel that I am in a place that just isn't "home." I play for 5 RC masses every weekend, so I realize the mass has turned into a job. Perhaps that colors my perceptions. But as a Byzantine, I just don't feel I have much in common with them when it comes to worship or spirituality.

I would say that we are, I received Communion at the Ukrainian Church today. And 98% of the Liturgy was in Ukrainian!

Seriously, we both have liturgical worship and don't have to sit through a 2 hour lecture every Wednesday and Sunday that is called "church"

At our local Shrine Church http://www.amm.org/shrine/shchurch.htm
the masses are very reverend and there are also no altar girls! I think this all depends on your location.

Dear Brethren in Christ,

This quote may seem irrevelant to the topic, however I feel that it may have some relevance. Please bear with me.

�Discrimination is the distinctive characteristic of one who probes. He then who examines the symbols of the Law in a spiritual manner, and who contemplates the visible nature of created beings with intelligence, will discriminate in Scripture between letter and spirit, in creation between inner essence and outward appearance, and in himself between intellect and the senses; and in Scripture he will choose the spirit, in creation the inner essence or logos, and in himself the intellect. If he then unites these three indissolubly to one another, he will have found God.�

- St Maximos the Confessor

NIKA

I was a satisfied Novus Ordo Catholic for a number of years (most of my life actually). Eventually though my level of commitment ratcheted up a notch and I yearned for for a deeper spirituality (though had trouble finding it), so I was going in three directions at once: I started to visit SSPX and indult Masses (even began lessons in Latin, which I dropped shortly after); I prayed the LOTH at home with some vigour; I became an Oblate candidate at the local monastery. Since I am single I thought perhaps the monastic calling might be for me.

Each one turned into a dead end for me, but somehow I was very reluctant to visit an eastern church, actually I was quite intimidated by the whole thing. Nevertheless I did what studies I could in eastern Christian spirituality and theology and finally wormed up the courage to check out the churches. Boy, what a relief! Everyone was very welcoming. I was blown over liturgically, I never realized what a difference good liturgy could make.

After a few years I started to reassess my thinking about Rome, and I just couldn't do it while worshipping in the BCC, so I went back to Latin parishes as often as possible between my obligations at the parish. I knew that this was where my answers lay.

It was my revisiting the Latin parishes I knew so well all those years that finally convinced me to become Orthodox. My looking again at the practices and teaching of the Latin church with an eastern perspective convinced me that I was out of place entirely, theologically and spiritually. Nevertheless it still took me two years to accept the idea of conversion, as stubborn as I am.

+T+
Michael

Rome left, Constantinople left, Alexandria left twice, Russia killed any who would not turn KGB, many small groups went into hidding or into exile. Perhaps Jerusalem reamains. As for me, I've tried to feel at home by going to Roman Catholic, uniates, liberal Greek Orthodox - because I do not like being alone. It hasn't worked. I belong to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russian (under Met. Vitaly). I rarely see a visiting preist or bishop. Mostly I do reader services for my family at home. Why? Because I can't be happy being in communion those who have changed the faith. Joining this forum was another effort trying to find common ground among those who are similar and numerous. I think what I must do is conclude that when Christ said, "When 2 or 3 are gathered together ..." He was actually alluding to the possiblilty that the Church may one day diminish down to only 2 or 3 members. Perhaps the lesson of Gideon's army in Judges 6-8 that it is better to reduce the size of the army from 32,000 to 300 if it means that those who remain are faithful. This is not a perspective that I wished to have, but rather one that I had to learn to have. Only thru aquiring all things pertaining to the faith in common will we ever trully be in communion. Even if faith issues are minimized and inter-communion happens, this is not true communion.

Dear Friends,

We EC's are in communion with Rome but, at the same time, we live our own, individual and distinct liturgical lives as Churches.

This means that what goes on in one Church does not necessarily concern those in another. I know in the UGCC, it matters not a wit what the Latins are up to - the only times our pastors talk about the Latin Church is by way of a "don't let this happen to you!"

Communion means that we share the life of full communion in Christ and His Will for His Church.

In every which way liturgically, canonically, theologically etc., the Eastern Churches differ from the Latin Church.

Ironic, but also beautiful and meaningful.

Last week, I viewed a Tridentine consecration of a cathedral for the Institute of Christ the King - it was breathtaking and I thought, "Were the RC's crazy to want to change all that pristine liturgical beauty for . . . what?"

But it also highlighted the numerous differences that exist and have always existed between our Churches.

One of the problems I have with a number of contemporary RC's, including traditional RC's, those on Papa Stronsay included, is their referral to us as a "Rite" and not a "Church."

To call EC's a "Rite" of the (Roman) Catholic Church is to reduce our identity to that of liturgy and perhaps canonical issues only.

It denies our theological patrimony and other matters of our distinct ecclesial reality.

Certainly, the various changes affecting contemporary RC spiritual culture have served to highlight that distinctiveness as Churches and not just liturgical "Rites" that reflect, in another, alternative manner, the theology and discipline shared in common etc.

Alex

Hi InCogNeat3

You threw open this question

To both Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox Christians. I will say I think this is a somewhat difficult question for Orthodox Christians to answer. Most Orthodox Christians in my experience do not have a very good sense of what type of relations the EC�s have with the western church. Certainly by formally being in communion though, one would say EC�s do and must accept all of the things about the western church listed above as being valid. What I�m saying is I think the only answer you would get back is �yes, they are in communion� on all of things you�re talking about because they share the Eucharist.

In my experience as well (and I say this not to raise hackles or engage in polemics) Orthodox people tend to look at EC�s as basically being in something of a hybrid status, but ultimately being Catholics who retain some Eastern traditions. They don�t look at them as being a similar group who they are just out of communion with. Obviously there are always exceptions, but I�ve found that to be a fairly common perception.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Well, there are EC's and there are EC's!

I've come across EC parishes who are regarded highly by even ROCOR people up here in Her Majesty's Dominion of Canada.

There are also Orthodox who think of other Orthodox as being on the "modernistic" path (just ask traditional Orthodox their views on the Antiochian Orthodox Church - I do and usually get a nasty response).

Ultimately, I think that Orthodox Christians are more uncomfortable with parishes that are very Eastern or "Orthodox in communion with Rome" than they are with the Latinized variety.

They don't really understand why the former are still "in communion with Rome" if they are so Eastern . . .

And the Latinized parishes of the "uniate" mentality at least keep the whole idea of communion with Rome at a safe distance . . .

Alex

Alex

I understand there are always exceptions to any rule, which is why I was only attempting to speak in general. I can only repeat that the best answer is that from an Orthodox perspective, if you�re in communion, you�re really in communion. The Eucharist as bond of faith pretty much trumps all other considerations.

Certainly, and the variable list of modernists would include several jurisdictions. Even then, you will always find exceptions. I have never run across anybody who has a poor opinion of Bishop Basil for instance. Though I�m sure some out there do.

Andrew

Yes. Byzantine Catholics are different from Roman Catholics, but they are Catholics. They believe the same things about faith and morals, and they follow the pope.

-- John

Dear Harmon3110,

You claimed that Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics believe the same regarding Faith and Morals. But, do they REALLY? If the Byzantine Catholic Faith and what now passes as the Roman Catholic Faith shared the sames beliefs regarding the True Presence in the Eucharist, then Why don't some Byzantine Catholic Churches remove the Tabernacle from the Sancuary and hide it in another room. (Please remember that God has dwelled in the Sanctuary in one form or another since the time of Moses.) Likewise, why don't Byzantine Catholic Churches eliminate all but 2 or 3 Icons from their Churches. The 2 or 3 remaining Icons, would have to be hidden of to the side so that they don't "distract" anyone. If Eastern and Western Catholics are of the same Faith, then we must naturally hold the Holy Images (be they 2 or 3 dimensional in the respective Church) in the same, or nearly the same regard, Right?