www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Possible Next step in the road to reconcilliation

Need your opinion on this idea, I think that the next step on the road to reconcilliation between the East and the West would be if Rome would allow Roman Catholics to fufill their Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. (I am not saying to recieve the Eucharist which would take total agreement between all parties)

I thought this was already permitted under 'The rules for the application of the norms on ecumenism' or whatever it's called.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

How could this begin to happen? The Orthodox do not permit Catholics to commune at the Orthodox Eucharist.

Catholics, on the other hand, already have permission on the Catholic side to commune at Orthodox altars, under specific conditions. Orthodox are also invited to commune at Catholic altars, again under specific conditions.

Actually,

In Roman Catholic parishes, there used to be an insertion in the "misselette" to the effect that Orthodox should follow the discipline of their Church regarding intercommunion.

Dear Theodore,

Certainly, Catholics may attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Lordsdays if there is no Catholic Church available or under other certain conditions.

(Andrew Sheptytsky urged his faithful in the diaspora to attend Orthodox Churches rather than Latin Catholic ones when they were in places that had no Eastern Catholic Churches because he saw the Latins try to "pull" the Eastern Catholics over to the Latin Church . . .).

Communing is something on which there is no reciprocity between Catholics and Orthodox as you correctly state.

But I have received permission before in certain Orthodox jurisdictions to approach the Chalice . . .

It would be important to ask the Orthodox pastor and the worst he could say is, "No."

If you are asking if Catholics should be able to attend Orthodox Churches regularly - then that is problematic from both sides.

Such regularity of attendance presupposes unity too.

But one might foresee circumstances where Catholics attend an Orthodox parish because it is closest.

My in-laws' parish has many Orthodox who attend the Liturgy on most Sundays because their own Church is downtown.

They are immigrants and many of them don't seem to see a difference between Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches . . .

Many of them send their children to "St Josaphat's School" as well . . .

When I asked one of them if they knew who went after Josaphat, he responded by saying, "Oh, some nasty people to be sure . . ."

Father Kimel, I once saw an entry in an Anglican Calendar for "St Josaphat." Would that be possible?

Alex

I think the Sunday obligation "dispute" isn't that important. That's a part of discipline, not dogma, and as we know, East and West are allowed to have diverging disciplinary practices.

I think the next step should be dialogue on Original Sin. I don't think that either the West or the East should have to change their theologoumena (sp?) on Original Sin, but I think that each should try and understand the other's POV. I think O.S. is a good place to re-start because other disagreements rise almost explicitly out of this problem (i.e. the Immaculate Conception, Assumption of the Theotokos, etc.). If you solve the "problem" of Original Sin, you solve a small list of disagreements. A few birds with one stone, I say.

Logos Teen

Dear Alex,
Isn't this why the Orthodox (especially the non-ecumenical ones) accused the Eastern Catholics of deception and being liars? And the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" an oxymoron?

Is there such a thing as Roman Orthodox Church since there is a Western-rite Orthodoxy?

Will Orthodox also attend the liturgy of the Western-rite Orthodoxy?

ruel

Need your opinion on this idea, I think that the next step on the road to reconcilliation between the East and the West would be if Rome would allow Roman Catholics to fufill their Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

If that is the case, it would be just a pastoral internal directive of the Latin Church with no effects in the catholic or orthodox dialogue. The idea of a "sunday obligation" does not exist in the East and if I am not mistaken, even for Western Catholicism is just a traditional practice. In all Western nations, Catholics have plenty of churches to worship and the impact of the Orthodox presence is minimum, and in most places where Orhodoxy is a majority, Catholics are from the Eastern rite and Romans can attend those parishes.

I would like to see something rom the Orthodox side, it seems that the Pope has given up in many things (asking for forgiveness to Arch. Christodoulos, decided not to support the restoration of Greek Catholics in Romania, decided not to recognize a Patriachate in Kiev), while Orthodox hierarchs do not seem to be interested in making new steps for the reconcilliation. At least some pastoral steps are desirable, between Orthodox and Easter Catholics as those done in the Middle East, where Catholics can receive communion in Orthodox parishes.

Is there such a thing as Roman Orthodox Church since there is a Western-rite Orthodoxy?

Hi Ruel. No, actually, while Rome recognizes the Eastern Catholic Churches as Churches (in spite of their lack of independence and the latinization). The Western Rite Orthodox is just a pastoral provision mainly for former Episcopalians. Western Rite people are forced to follow the Eastern rules of Baptism (by triple immersion), Chrismation (given after Baptism) and communion is also given to little children as opposed to the Western practice. (and you, eastern Catholics complain about Latinizations! )

Will Orthodox also attend the liturgy of the Western-rite Orthodoxy?

Ummm not really. The Western Rite Orthodox is a very complex issue because it's a blend of many things. It clearly difers from the Byzantine Liturgy that the majority of Orthodox Christians use, but it also difers a lot from the Mass that most Catholics attend (plus, it also difers from the Tridentine Mass). Both groups of Orthodox and Catholics would find Western Orthodoxy confusing.

Some Orthodox Bishops outside the AOC, strongly discourage the faithful to attend Western Rite parishes, and concelebration with WR priests is not permitted.

Dear Ruel,

Actually, the deception, if one may call it that, is not on the official level of the church, but in the minds of those who come to our parish . . . and they are always welcome to!

Orthodoxy believes it is the true Church of Christ - period. And membership is based on "communion" with it. One may believe as it believes, have "valid orders" etc. But if one is not in communion with it, one is outside the Church.

Catholicism has a different view that has become very ecumenical over the years - some say "very compromising and accommodating."

As for the Western Rite, the Western liturgical culture is only slowly being accepted by Orthodoxy.

It is, after all, difficult to get used to the ways of liturgical prayers of a Church that one has always been taught is heretical etc.

The same is true for traditional, Tridentine Roman Catholics, many of whom do see even the Byzantine Rite as being "schismatic."

In his diaries, our Ukrainian martyr, St Basil Velichkovsky, relates how Polish bishops would tell him that the Pope is "wrong" to promote the Byzantine Rite since it is "schismatic."

Alex

We should all call upon the Mother of God, under the titles of the holy wonderworking ikons which unite us in Tradition and spirituality, being rooted in an age when all were united in the Byzantine Tradition.

Could someone please give us a brief on the special ikons related to Ukraine, Ruthenia and the surrounding lands?

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

If you will go to "Ukrainian Orthodoxy" at: www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy [unicorne.org] - there is a site there that lists many Ukrainian miraculous icons of the Mother of God - as well as the most extensive listing in English of all known Ukrainian Orthodox saints.

The author did a really good job, or at least I say so . . .

Alex

Yes I like his articles very much.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Alex, I think that much of the problem to do with Western Rite Orthodoxy is actually mental.

The spirituality expressed by the Eastern liturgies and preserved within the hymnody and texts is quite different from even the Ancient West. Since Orthodoxy is experiential and centred on praxis, the same spiritual landscape cannot be replicated within a reconstructed Westen Rite faith, put back together by liturgists, Church historians and theologians.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

Yes, I agree totally.

And the best possible "Western Rite" resolution will occur when East and West are united again as One, Holy, Orthodox-Catholic and Apostolic Church of our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ!

Alex

Personally I've never found the incorporation of the Orthodox western saints into Eastern Orthodoxy a problem. This was very much the vision of St John Maximovitch, but when he went further and sanctioned the reconstruction of western rites, it all went out of control and ended in tears.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark monk and sinner.