www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Possible Next step in the road to reconcilliation

In fairness to Orthodoxy, the Catholics have never put Vaticans I and II on the table in the discussions. In fairness to Catholicism, the Orthodox have been remise in bringing these to the table and insisting (according to the principles of equality and reciprocity) that a satisfactory resolution of the these two Councils is the issue of Primacy (and this must be addressed in order for the Dialogue to proceed). Thus, the Brotherly Spirit externally exhibited by the Catholics (and I'm by no means saying that it is unappreciated) is not exhibited internally, but rather a Spirit of how can more palatable to Orthodoxy by things like collegiatity?, etc. They are at dogmatic impasse! I feel that without laity insistance that everything is on the table, perhaps the best thing to do is to agree to disagree, say that they are at irreconcilable impasse, and then state that this presents serious pastoral issues that need addressing for the "Ecclesia" or People of God. Most people in the increasingly secular world do not care about dogmas, they want to live life and to have a Church that addresses their pastoral and familial needs. Unfortunatly (or perhaps most hopefully for the future) the Ecclesia are voting with their feet.

Christ Is Risen! Truly He Is Risen! Truly He Is Lord!

Three Cents (with Double Meaning for picking in sentence II)

Dear Snoopy,

Regarding a formal matter, I don't know what you mean exactly when you use the term "liberal."

Do you mean it in a nice way or not a nice way, for example?

I think of Dr. John whenever I hear that word .

So I don't know whether you are being kind to the "liberal" Popes of Rome or not . . .

Alex

Dear O. C.

No well, it's true that sometimes the term liberal is used in a negative way, I've used that term too sometimes, but this tinme what I meant is that the recent popes are more open to dialogue with other Christians, and have tried to establish a relationship of respect with other religions. I would say Pope Pius XII was very conservative, in opposition to the recent Popes. But yea, the term is confusing, maybe I should have said, "more open-minded" instead of liberal.

Dear Snoopy,

O.K., Big Guy!

And how come you are from "Mexico only?"

Do you feel you should have the gift of bi-location or something?

Alex

which of course is another way of saying "liberal"

Dear Brian-Seraphim (how do you want to be called?)

Actually, liberals up here have the reputation for allowing all sorts of views - as long as they agree with theirs.

In addition, what is "liberal" is what is against any ideology or political perspective - or else "value-neutral ideology."

Alex

Dear Dr. Alex,
Do you make this stuff up? I don't quite get it!

Michael

Dear Mike,

Actually, I don't make this stuff up - but I strongly suspect my profs did!

Political liberalism is characterized by the view that there can be a position that is "value-free" or "non-ideological."

And it assumes that it is that position.

Others would say that everyone has a position or perspective, even the liberals (i.e. laissez-faire economics etc.)

Otherwise, they wouldn't be called "liberals."

Alex

I never heard of that.

How about this for instance?

Suppose you have a young priest from the Ukraine full of vigour and excited because he's going to work in Chicago and when he gets there he finds holy water fonts at the door, pews with kneelers, first holy communion planned for the following week… you get the picture.

He immediately has the kneelers removed and unbolts the holy water fonts, and the parish is in an uproar!

Now who is the liberal here and who is the conservative? And which one is value neutral? They will probably accuse each other of being the liberal!!

Dear Mike,

Ah, but in this case "liberalism" is the antithesis of religious conservatism - it is like the old New Testament argument between the rationalistic Sadduccees and the religious Pharisees.

People like me are more like Pharisees . . .

Hey, that doesn't sound right . . .?!

Alex

You crack me up!

Alex,

Brian is fine

Actually, I am "liberal" on some things and "conservative" on some things. I think most people do not tend to be all one or the other and are healthier for not being so.

Dear Brian,

That's a good conservative position to take!

Pharisees of the world - unite!

Alex

How liberal of you to feel that way!

Michael

Dear Michael,

I'm really the "king of fun" after all!

Actually, that thing about the Pharisees was the informal motto of the theological students of the Lviv Theological Academy before the Second World War. . .

Alex