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Posted By: Alice Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/07/05 01:56 PM
Turks disrupt Epiphany dive

ISTANBUL (AFP) - Turkish nationalists chanting slogans and waving the flag of an extreme right-wing party yesterday tried to disrupt a Greek Orthodox religious ceremony here called the benediction of the waters of the Bosporus.

As part of a tradition dating back to Byzantine times, a crucifix is thrown into the waters and young divers plunge in, competing to recover it. Some 60 nationalists interrupted the proceedings waving flags of the National Action Party (MHP) and chanting, “This is Turkey here, like it or leave it.”

Hundreds of members of Istanbul's Greek Orthodox community attended the ceremony held every January 6 on the banks of the stretch of water known as the Golden Horn, which cuts into the western side of the Bosporus dividing the city's European and Asian sides. Police held the intruders back, and they later made an equally unsuccessful attempt in fishing boats to invade the section of water where the ceremony took place.

www.ekathimerini.com [ekathimerini.com]
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/07/05 02:31 PM
Alice,

Some will say that real Islam isn't like this. Yes and No. Just as the Qur'an sometimes promotes peace when it is advantageous to do so and sometimes promotes war when it was advantageous to do so so modern Muslims do the same. The majority of people may be peace loving. Many passages in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunna may promote peace but for the most part if you aren't Muslim you are considered people against whom Muslim must fight.

One positive note in all of this: Every Christian I've ever met who have moved here from those countries tend to be more Orthodox and vibrant than their native American born counterparts. They enrich our culture.

We need to find some way to support our persecuted brothers and sisters in Muslim dominated countries.

Dan L
Posted By: bergschlawiner Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 01:48 PM
And the Americans who were voicing the same message after "911" were told to shut up! I am learning more and more about these people and their "imams" who are the preachers of Jihad here in you know where.
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 05:02 PM
Dear Dan,

Persecution does wonders for strengthening one's faith. It's only when no one cares what you do that people slack off.... wink

Gaudior, in prayer for peace, while simultaneously hoping someone throws TURKS into the Bosphorus, next time.
Posted By: bergschlawiner Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 06:47 PM
Quote
The majority of people may be peace loving. Many passages in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunna may promote peace but for the most part if you aren't Muslim you are considered people against whom Muslim must fight.
Sorry if my post added to a previous posters statement above where I used quotation marks for "these people" and "imams" offended anyone but there are certain facts in the media and I am sorry I offended anyone by not being "PC" By the way, imams are not really clergy, more like lay preachers.
Posted By: incognitus Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 07:19 PM
Having been in Constantinople several times, I can readily believe this horrible account. One really wonders what sort of people feel threatened or offended by a water-blessing service.

Incognitus
Posted By: djs Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 07:21 PM
Dear bergschlawiner,

Your comments cannot be dismissed as merely not PC.

If you are indeed an interrogator at Abu Ghraib, then in light of of recent misconduct, you should consider adopting a comportment that is beyond even the suggestion of impropriety. Comments about "these people", whomever that might entail, etc. are not helpful.

djs

PS Who was telling whom to "shut up" after 9/11?
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 08:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bergschlawiner:
Quote
The majority of people may be peace loving. Many passages in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunna may promote peace but for the most part if you aren't Muslim you are considered people against whom Muslim must fight.
Sorry if my post added to a previous posters statement above where I used quotation marks for "these people" and "imams" offended anyone but there are certain facts in the media and I am sorry I offended anyone by not being "PC" By the way, imams are not really clergy, more like lay preachers.
I see your quotes around "911" and "imams" but not around these people. OOPS! eek I put that expression in italics. GAK!! That's probably a PC sin in blue states. biggrin I had also wondered about imams. It sounds like to be one only requires you to declare that you are one, then you can preach whatever you wish. Do the Muslims have any equivalents to our formally ordained clergy?
Posted By: Jennifer Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 09:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:


PS Who was telling whom to "shut up" after 9/11?
Good question, djs. I wondered the same thing.

I don't recall people being told to "shut up" when criticizing Islam after 9/11. I do recall, however, people being encouraged not to encourage in bigotry and violent attacks upon Islamic Americans.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/08/05 10:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gaudior:
Dear Dan,

Persecution does wonders for strengthening one's faith. It's only when no one cares what you do that people slack off.... wink

Gaudior, in prayer for peace, while simultaneously hoping someone throws TURKS into the Bosphorus, next time.
I agree completely.

Dan L
Posted By: djs Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 12:12 AM
Quote
these people. OOPS! I put that expression in italics. GAK!! That's probably a PC sin in blue states.
ByzTN,

Please don't suggest that stereotyping is considered irreproachable in red states; it isn't in mine.

(PS - off topic:
Jennifer, I liked your comments to those who seem indignant that anyone would dare to find the faintest silver lining on the tsunami dark cloud.)
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 12:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Quote
these people. OOPS! I put that expression in italics. GAK!! That's probably a PC sin in blue states.
ByzTN,

Please don't suggest that stereotyping is considered irreproachable in red states; it isn't in mine.

(PS - off topic:
Jennifer, I liked your comments to those who seem indignant that anyone would dare to find the faintest silver lining on the tsunami dark cloud.)
Who is talking about stereoptyping? I am looking for those quotes around "these people" in his original post that he referenced. I don't think they are there. As to what constitutes stereotyping, I will leave that to the chronic nitpickers. :p You are in a red state? ...I never would have guessed that!! wink
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 12:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Gaudior:
Dear Dan,

Persecution does wonders for strengthening one's faith. It's only when no one cares what you do that people slack off.... wink

Gaudior, in prayer for peace, while simultaneously hoping someone throws TURKS into the Bosphorus, next time.
I have to agree with you on persecution and the Turks. I think one of the reasons we have ongoing enemies is that we've never learned to effectively deal with them the first time around. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have energy independence and let the middle east take its oil and.... you get the idea. biggrin When they didn't have money, their capacity for mischief making was diminshed.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 01:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Quote
Originally posted by Gaudior:
[b] Dear Dan,

Persecution does wonders for strengthening one's faith. It's only when no one cares what you do that people slack off.... wink

Gaudior, in prayer for peace, while simultaneously hoping someone throws TURKS into the Bosphorus, next time.
I have to agree with you on persecution and the Turks. I think one of the reasons we have ongoing enemies is that we've never learned to effectively deal with them the first time around. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have energy independence and let the middle east take its oil and.... you get the idea. biggrin When they didn't have money, their capacity for mischief making was diminshed. [/b]
Byz,

Well, they couldn't reach us but they sure made life almost unbearable for Christians and Jews for 1400 years.

Dan L
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 01:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
Byz,

Well, they couldn't reach us but they sure made life almost unbearable for Christians and Jews for 1400 years.

Dan L
True, and but for the intercession of the Theotokos, Europe would be a Muslim entity today. Wouldn't that have done wonders for ecumenism? wink I am biased. I pray to see Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia again.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 01:47 AM
Quote
I pray to see Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia again. [/QB]
I do as well. I also pray for the end of Islam. They seem hell bent on persecuting Christians and Jews so I pray that they will cease to exist.

dan l
Posted By: Jennifer Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 01:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
Quote
I pray to see Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia again.
I do as well. I also pray for the end of Islam. They seem hell bent on persecuting Christians and Jews so I pray that they will cease to exist.

dan l [/QB]
I'm going to assume that you meant to pray that Islam will "cease to exist" not that individual Muslims will "cease to exist" because it's wrong to pray for genocide.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 01:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
Quote
I pray to see Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia again.
I do as well. I also pray for the end of Islam. They seem hell bent on persecuting Christians and Jews so I pray that they will cease to exist.

dan l [/QB]
Works for me. The ideal way would be for that religion to convert to Christianity. I can't dismiss that as impossible, since who would have ever thought the Aztecs would convert? Just our luck the Muslims would convert to Christian fundamentalism and make us all miserable. LOL. biggrin But praying for their conversion is certainly a worthwhile thing to do. Arianism finally went away, maybe the same can happen to Islam.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 02:03 AM
The end of that religion would be a blessing to the world. Conversion to Christ would be the best avenue.

Dan L
Posted By: Jason Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 03:24 AM
Yes, it would be terrible to pray for genocide. There are murderers in all religions. I get annoyed by the scapegoating of an entire group because a small percentage are committing evil. A recent poll conducted by Cornell found that 44% of Americans wish to limit Muslim Americans' civil rights. That is ridiculous.

Quote
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[b]
Quote
I pray to see Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia again.
I do as well. I also pray for the end of Islam. They seem hell bent on persecuting Christians and Jews so I pray that they will cease to exist.

dan l [/b]
I'm going to assume that you meant to pray that Islam will "cease to exist" not that individual Muslims will "cease to exist" because it's wrong to pray for genocide. [/QB]
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 03:55 AM
Jason,

I doubt that anyone on this board would disagree with you.

Dan L
Posted By: incognitus Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 07:46 AM
"Arianism finally went away, maybe the same can happen to Islam."

Funnily enough, Islam is a form of Arianism!

At present, there are fundamentalist Christian groups seeking the conversion of the Muslims, but there seems a definite lack of such an effort at mission within the historic Churches. This is entirely deplorable, particularly in the case of Muslims coming to Christian countries.

Incognitus
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 09:16 AM
I regret deeply the disruption of the Greek ceremony and agree that resumption of the Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia would be a wonderful thing, as would conversion of Muslims to Christianity. However, I deplore the fact that this thread has devolved to one of hatred against a religion and its devotees, not a laudable thing on a Christian forum.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/09/05 01:27 PM
Neil,

Islam is historically a Christian heresy. It will be good when this heresy ceases to exist. The post has not devolved at all judging even from your critique.

DanL
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/10/05 10:56 PM
Let's be realistic. I think you have to remember that Spain did not get its land back by engaging in ecumenical dialogue with the Moors. Spain had to militarily drive the Moors out. Ecumenical dialogue isn't going to return Constantinople to the Greeks, either.
Posted By: Christopher De Milo Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/18/05 05:05 AM
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Turkish nationalism is secular. The threatening crowd may have had some Muslim adherents. My bet is that most were secularists - detesting Islam as backwards and seeing the blessing of the water as something Greek rather than Christian (which they would see as anti-Turkish and backwards).

No imams or muftis in that crowd.

Sincerely,
Christopher
(formerly of Sirevler-Istanbul)
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 01:18 AM
Quote
Turkish nationalism is secular. The threatening crowd may have had some Muslim adherents. My bet is
that most were secularists - detesting Islam as backwards and seeing the blessing of the water as
something Greek rather than Christian (which they would see as anti-Turkish and backwards).

No imams or muftis in that crowd.
The truth is that Turkey is a secular country. Regardless, Turkey is famous for its genocide... towards many different people. As Hitler so infamously stated when he decided to exterminate the Jews, "who today remembers the Armenians". Turkey is also hated by other Muslims, such as Syria... if one should ever wonder why Turkey has always had a close friendship with Israel.

On the Turkish side though, she knows that whatever land she has, originally belonged to others. In that sense, one cannot blame them for not wanting the head of a major religion, (such as the Orthodox Patriarch), based on their land.

Certainly we wouldn't want the 'head' Iman stationed in Washington DC. Of course Turkey doesn't accept that the Patriarch is the head of the Orthodox Church, but rather only leads the few Greeks that were left in Istanbul after the pogroms of the 1950's.

As for throwing them into the sea as Gaudior said, I always wondered what the Greeks intended to do with them, if their dreams of recapturing Asia Minor had ever come about. But it didn't, so instead the Greeks were thrown into the sea.

The only forseeable thing, would be for the Turks to become Christians, and had the Orthodox prayed for this, the original Ottoman Empire might have ceased to exist centuries ago.

As for the above quote, even though Turkey is a secular nation, their thoughts have been formed by a Muslim culture. To give one an idea of how different their thoughts are: At the time the Greeks were kicked out in 1923, the Turks kept the young girls and women, and then forced them to have children with Muslims. This way they could say and believe, that they themselves were the original inhabitants.

I recalled this when reading how the Jordanians were upset about Spain and wanted it back. They believe that they are the original 'Arian' inhabitants.

Somehow, I gather from this, and other things that I have heard, that Islam seems to be a religious/political system, where the individual doesn't really matter and that the Muslims should accept their'fate' in life, regardless of what it is, for the benefit and expansion of the state.

What is pathetic, is that they refuse to join the EU if Christianity is mentioned as the basis of Western civilization.

Zenovia
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 01:32 AM
Quote
As for throwing them into the sea as Gaudior said, I always wondered what the Greeks intended to do with
them, if their dreams of recapturing Asia Minor had ever come about. But it didn't, so instead the Greeks
were thrown into the sea.
I think I better specify on the above quote. When the Greeks were thrown into the sea in 1923, they were in the majority. If the modern Greeks, with their dreams of recapturing Istanbul and Asia Minor were to be accomplished, the Turks would be in the majority, and certainly they would not be thrown into the sea. So what in the world do they expect to do with them?

I recall reading a prophecy by a monk during the Byzantine era. He said to someone, "do you see that tribe called the Rus. Well in the last days, Constantinople will belong to them".

So far the Russians haven't managed it...England wouldn't allow it. Somehow though, I can't help but wonder if it refers to Istanbul or to the Patriarchate? Considering that someone cannot become a Patriarch unless they have Turkish citizenship, and I have been told by Greek officials that should the Patriarchate cease to exist, it would have to be taken over by the Russian patriarch; the old Byzantine prophecy does not seem to far fetched.

Zenovia
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 01:45 AM
Quote
Jennifer, I liked your comments to those who seem indignant that anyone would dare to find the faintest
silver lining on the tsunami dark cloud.)
I don't know what Jennifers comments were, but I would like to respond to this quote. There can be a silver lining to the tsunami dark cloud, if it made us more aware of the child sex traficking in that part of the world...and began to do something about it.

Zenovia
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 04:54 PM
Getting back to the ORIGINAL topic of this thread:

It surprises me to read the article refer to "Turkish Nationalists." Turkey, as envisioned by Atta Turk, is supposed to be a secular state.

The more likley proper reference would have simply been "Muslim Demostrators." The fact that there were only 60 of them out of a city of that size leads me to believe that this was fringe, extremist group.

Just my humble thoughts.

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 06:36 PM
Dear Friends,

Mention was made of a "crucifix."

We once had a discussion on this, but I've forgotten it.

What is the difference between a "Crucifix" that presumably RC's have, and our Byzantine Crosses that depict Christ on them?

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 06:55 PM
Alex

The RC Crucifix always shows Christ hanging from the Cross - His weight is taken from His hands so His shoulders are lower than His hands and His knees are always bent and He sags in pain.

My Byzantine Cross [ came from Kyiv ] shows His knees are straight and His feet supporting His weight.

Just an observation and I honestly can't say why the difference - would be nice to know though wink

Anhelyna
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/19/05 08:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

Mention was made of a "crucifix."

We once had a discussion on this, but I've forgotten it.

What is the difference between a "Crucifix" that presumably RC's have, and our Byzantine Crosses that depict Christ on them?

Alex
About $15. U.S. biggrin All kidding aside, I think the West has traditionally been more interested in displaying Christ's passion and death, so the suffering element is more prominent in their crucifixes. A notable exception would be the more recent and popular so-called "touchdown Jesus," or "Christ the Diver" crucifixes that show a risen Christ with arms raised over his head, not nailed to a cross. I think our Byzantine crosses simply display Christ on the background of a cross, not nailed to it. My own view is that the East is more interested in the cross as a necessary item on the way to the resurrection. So my opinion is that the East is more interested in displaying a resurrected Christ instead of a suffering Christ. However, I am not a theologian, so I am interested in what they have to say about this.
Posted By: 14ALL41 Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/25/05 10:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Christopher De Milo:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Turkish nationalism is secular. The threatening crowd may have had some Muslim adherents. My bet is that most were secularists - detesting Islam as backwards and seeing the blessing of the water as something Greek rather than Christian (which they would see as anti-Turkish and backwards).

No imams or muftis in that crowd.

Sincerely,
Christopher
(formerly of Sirevler-Istanbul)
Thank you for the post. It was a nationalistic act, not Islamic. The name of the political party to whom the intruders belong is "Nationalist Movement Party." Most of the time nothing to do with Islam.

I won't comment on the majority of the posts in this topic as I don't want to provoke. There are biased extremists (as opposed to realists) everywhere, here (Istanbul) and there. wink
Posted By: Alice Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/25/05 01:08 PM
Welcome to the forum 14ALL41!

If you don't mind me asking, are you Christian? confused

I know that the Christian community is very small in Istanbul. If you are, are you Orthodox or Catholic?

Is it easy being Christian in a Muslim country?

Forgive my nosiness, but I find it much easier to relate to people on a religious forum, if I know what faith tradition they hail from and there is nothing on your profile.

Thank you. smile

In Christ our Lord,
Alice
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Turks disrupt Epiphany dive - 01/25/05 08:38 PM
Quote
So my
opinion is that the East is more interested in displaying a resurrected Christ instead of a suffering Christ.
However, I am not a theologian, so I am interested in what they have to say about this.
I'm not a theologian either, but I have thought about that many times. I recall that Billy Graham when preaching in Russia, was told by the Metropolitan that he should put more emphasis on the resurrection.

Since then he has, but it never came out with the same 'triumphalism' towards the resurrected Christ, as in the East. Somehow the sorrows of Christ tend to touch us more. It softens our hearts, and fills it with compassion.

From that, I decided that the Eastern culture must be more triumphalistic, so that they in turn, reacte more to the truth of the ressurection.

Well, I then came to the conclusion, and decided that this is probably the reason our motives are so misunderstood in non-Western parts of the world. It could be that these people are perceiving as triumphism, everything we accomplish or try to do.

Just a simple observation, from a very 'limited' person.

Zenovia
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