www.byzcath.org
The Pope is considering a dramatic overhaul of the Vatican in order to force a return to traditional sacred music.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/20/wpope120.xml

I have a list of Latin parishes here in Northeast Ohio that are in need a a dramatic overhaul if the Pope is interested smile

Monomakh
you are too generous in calling the rubbish that has woofed forth since the sixties "music". as one who plays classical guitar, composes (and has done so since childhood) via piano and has played in school marching bands, I cannot call what I hear moaned at Mass music.no wonder no one sings at Mass! thankfully the hippie days are fading into historical oblivion as the younger generation seeks a more traditional worship and attendant music. I wish the Latins well, I truly do.
Much Love,
Jonn
The fastest way to get teenagers to laugh is drag out an old, gray-haired hippie with a guitar who's trying to be relevant with 1970s music. A paraphrase of the Catholic hippie classic, "Sing a New Song" would be:

Yahweh's dog it leaped for joy,
and jumped upon the couch.
"Get down bad dog, you're going to hell,"
Said Yahweh who's no slouch
.

That's about the level theologically and musically we have experienced in U.S RC music for the last 30 years. There's a concept at stake here. I think Pope Benedict is trying to re-establish the church as heaven on earth, not an extension of the world. I am with Pope Benedict on his efforts to restore sacred music. It's long overdue.
ain't no fool like an old fool, bro.
as far as the Holy Father is concerned with his wisdom: MANY YEARS!
Much Love,
Jonn
This sounds like welcome news!
Posted By: JohnS. Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/23/07 03:28 PM
Prayers for His Holiness in this most excellent endeavor!
Guiseppe Liberto really has got to go. He and Piero Marini worked hand in hand to demolish, as much as possible, proper liturgy at the Vatican. Their outlook is very similar.

One down, one to go.

I like this quote, because it's so true:
Quote
The International Church Music Review recently criticised the [Sistine Chapel]choir, saying: "The singers wanted to overshout each other, they were frequently out of tune, the sound uneven, the conducting without any artistic power, the organ and organ playing like in a second-rank country parish church."

Alexis
Hey, Marty Hagen is classical Roman Catholic music, at least to me!
And me and my friend agree, Here I am Lord and On Eagle's Wings have a soft spot in our hearts. I don't know if it was Marty that wrote them, but I don't discredit all music post vatican 2. Many of these post vatican 2 hymns are the only hymns many many many Catholics in the USA know.
That's true enough - and the same in the UK too smile

I have just heard that my ex Roman Parish is not having the Choir this year for the Midnight Mass - they are doing something else ?!?!?!?!?

The congregation don't sing frown
Posted By: JohnS. Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/23/07 06:47 PM
Looks like Marty Haugen is still busy.

http://livingliturgy.com

I've always found it interesting how a Lutheran musician has had a such a powerful influence on RC liturgical music in the U.S.A.
Originally Posted by JohnS.
Looks like Marty Haugen is still busy.

http://livingliturgy.com

I've always found it interesting how a Lutheran musician has had a such a powerful influence on RC liturgical music in the U.S.A.

I don't think he is Lutheran anymore. Last I heard, he was United Church of Christ. Must have gotten there on eagle's wings or something. wink As for his influence, I blame two things. One, NPM which has endorsed and promoted his works beyond all reason. Two, timing. He happened to hit at a time when the leaders of the U.S. church wanted to be both in the world and of the world. Pair that with a self-absorbed generation that liked to have its collective ears tickled, and you have it. As a RC musician, I am doing everything I can to stamp out his music in the parish where I work.
Posted By: ZAROVE Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/23/07 07:19 PM
WELL, I for one will be in earnest happy to expurgiate th Modern noise, er, music, form Churches, and restore us to having good music.
Marty Haugen, Haas, and their music are going the way of the dinosaurs. It is only a matter of time until the aged hippies who force their music on our (rather more tasteful) Generation X and Y have been mercifully called away from us and into the next life, be it Heaven or Hell.

They might think Heaven is Hell anyway, since I would imagine the angels chant...I would bet they won't hear much "Praise & Worship" stuff up there! And if they do, I'm not sure I want to go there! wink

Alexis
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Marty Haugen, Haas, and their music are going the way of the dinosaurs. It is only a matter of time until the aged hippies who force their music on our (rather more tasteful) Generation X and Y have been mercifully called away from us and into the next life, be it Heaven or Hell.

They might think Heaven is Hell anyway, since I would imagine the angels chant...I would bet they won't hear much "Praise & Worship" stuff up there! And if they do, I'm not sure I want to go there! wink

Alexis

ahhhhhhh Alexis be charitable. Only God can judge us in the matter you describe.
Anyone have any thoughts on John Michael Talbot's music for liturgy?
Silouan, musically challenged old monk
Originally Posted by monksilouan
Anyone have any thoughts on John Michael Talbot's music for liturgy?
Silouan, musically challenged old monk

Is he still around? I hadn't heard anything of him in years. I seem to remember he did kind of a folk-type music.
I just have this vision of Pope Benedict standing at that gates of the Vatican with his finger pointing the way out, and a train of denim clad nuns with guitars slung on their backs slowly filing out into the sunset.

Alexandr
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
I just have this vision of Pope Benedict standing at that gates of the Vatican with his finger pointing the way out, and a train of denim clad nuns with guitars slung on their backs slowly filing out into the sunset.

Alexandr

Works for me! wink
Are they singing Kumbaya? biggrin
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Are they singing Kumbaya? biggrin

What was the other one about Michael rowing that %*$& boat ashore? I never figured out what that ever had to do with anything even remotely religious.
Posted By: Etnick Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Are they singing Kumbaya? biggrin

What was the other one about Michael rowing that %*$& boat ashore? I never figured out what that ever had to do with anything even remotely religious.

This thread got me thinking of my years at a Roman Catholic grade school. I specifically remember masses where I heard the songs "Look beyond the bread you eat", " On eagles wings", and even the Cat Stevens song "Morning has broken" with guitars. sick
I stand by 'on eagles wings.' it is a partial psalm. the rcc uses many partial psalm in the mass. ever hear of the responsorial psalm. i put this up 2 defend anyone that says, well on eagles wings is just a partial psalm so that doesnt add to its credibility.
even the eastern churches abbv. psalams in places too, so i am not pointing fingers. even the prayers at the foot of the altar in the 1962 missal are abbv. psalms, so we can point to that small tradition as well. So, my point is, on eagles wings is not a bad song.
The words to on eagles wings are fine, and I have never had any objection to them. It's the music that's totally cheesy and lacking in any kind of sacred character - something Pope Benedict keeps stating as necessary for church music. It's by Michael Joncas who missed his time and calling by not composing silent music scores. He writes some of the most horrid music I have ever heard. And yes, he has written far, far worse than on eagles wings. He wrote a setting of the Magnificat that a crazed local choir director pulled out for a diocesan function. It would have been appropriate stylistically for camel herding, since it had a "Lawrence of Arabia" tone.
Posted By: JohnS. Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Etnick
This thread got me thinking of my years at a Roman Catholic grade school. I specifically remember masses where I heard the songs "Look beyond the bread you eat", " On eagles wings", and even the Cat Stevens song "Morning has broken" with guitars. sick

----

I have similar memories.
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Are they singing Kumbaya? biggrin

What was the other one about Michael rowing that %*$& boat ashore? I never figured out what that ever had to do with anything even remotely religious.

Ignorance breeds contempt...


"Michael, Row the Boat Ashore" is a Negro spiritual. Originally published after the Civil War, it was no doubt sung by slaves of the antebellum era. Spirituals were a form of religious expression. The lyrics speak of crossing the Jordan River, which in these spirituals is a metaphor of death. Reaching the shore is in essence attaining the Promised Land, ie, heaven. Given the subhuman experience of slaves, spirituals adapted many OT themes, especially those related to the children of Israel's Eygptian bondage and Exodus. Songs of this genre offered hope in a time of hopelessness.


I love Negro spirituals! But everything has a time and a place, and things that work for some don't work for others.

I've attended a black church where everyone sang with gusto these types of songs. It was a moving, authentic experience.

But when 21st century (mostly non-black) Catholics try to sing 19th century Negro spirituals, the result is nothing less than pathetic and disastrous. I hate to use such strident words, but I really can't phrase it in any other way. Black spirituals from *black people* in an appropriate venue and situation can be inspiring and, as I said, feels authentic. In the wrong setting (i.e. the Catholic Mass), it seems self-consciously vain, terribly artificial and painfully executed. They even steal the dignity of those songs by those of us who have to suffer to hear them from such an artificual crowd, which is something of an affront to those songs' authors and the ones who sing them convincingly.

Alexis
I attend a workshop of his at the dreaded LA Conference and was quite inspired by the singing and philosophy of his music.
Stephanos I
So much so that I would like to initiate the congregation into sining it.
Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
I love Negro spirituals! But everything has a time and a place, and things that work for some don't work for others.

I've attended a black church where everyone sang with gusto these types of songs. It was a moving, authentic experience.

But when 21st century (mostly non-black) Catholics try to sing 19th century Negro spirituals, the result is nothing less than pathetic and disastrous. I hate to use such strident words, but I really can't phrase it in any other way. Black spirituals from *black people* in an appropriate venue and situation can be inspiring and, as I said, feels authentic. In the wrong setting (i.e. the Catholic Mass), it seems self-consciously vain, terribly artificial and painfully executed. They even steal the dignity of those songs by those of us who have to suffer to hear them from such an artificual crowd, which is something of an affront to those songs' authors and the ones who sing them convincingly.

Alexis

Good points.
Posted By: Edmac Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 04:01 PM
Well said, Logos-Alexis. I think your language very restrained.
It is twelve years since I left the Roman rite and I almost never
attend a Roman church so I have little idea what's being done
today, but back then things just got worse and worse musically.
Some of the songs (let me not call them hymns)were not only
hard to hear but theologically dubious.To me, it was a temptation
against charity, along with a lot of other stuff. Now, some might accuse me of being an aesthetic snob (and they'd probably
be right)but music in church is not just trimming, it is part of
worshipping, and what are we saying to God, ourselves and the
world in general when we use unworthy music?

As for "On Eagles' Wings", circumstances being what they are,
I will probably be buried from a Latin church. I have instructed
my relatives that if that hideous thing gets sung at my funeral I will come back and haunt them and interfere with their TV
reception when Mets games are on.

Edmac
Oddly enough, one is not the owner of one's own corpse. However, I might suggest this procedure:

1. Whilst you are still alive, make a written agreement between yourself and the medical school of your choice, leaving your body to medical science with specific instructions that whatever can be used for the health needs of another should be used to that end (there is a constant need for corneas, liver transplants, and so on);

2. Have that instrument and agreement co-signed by whoever your principal heir might be (if need be, a hint that recalcitrance could result in your leaving your corpse and all of your estate to a home for dead cats often results in enthusiastic cooperation in your dedication to medical science); and

3. arrange a funeral service and so on in the Church of your choice; pay for it in advance (I beg your pardon; that must read "make the customary offering in advance, and get a written attestation from the Pastor to that effect), and give photocopies of that instrument to all your potential heirs. They are unlikely to want to pay some other Church a second time.


If you would like some real amusement, get together with your lawyer and make one of those video-recorded wills, in which you may say whatever you like ( barring obscenities and vulgarisms) while you are dispensing your largesse - with a clause indicating that if your wishes for your mortal remains and your funeral are not followed to the letter, your worldly goods will go to some outlandish cause that you happen to approve of and that is legally capable of accepting such a legacy (if you want any suggestions, I'll be happy to oblige).

Since we must all die sooner or later, we might as well make the process at least somewhat enjoyable!

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Nan Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 05:47 PM
Wasn't that on an episode of "Diagnosis, Murder"?
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
I love Negro spirituals! But everything has a time and a place, and things that work for some don't work for others.

I've attended a black church where everyone sang with gusto these types of songs. It was a moving, authentic experience.

But when 21st century (mostly non-black) Catholics try to sing 19th century Negro spirituals, the result is nothing less than pathetic and disastrous. I hate to use such strident words, but I really can't phrase it in any other way. Black spirituals from *black people* in an appropriate venue and situation can be inspiring and, as I said, feels authentic. In the wrong setting (i.e. the Catholic Mass), it seems self-consciously vain, terribly artificial and painfully executed. They even steal the dignity of those songs by those of us who have to suffer to hear them from such an artificual crowd, which is something of an affront to those songs' authors and the ones who sing them convincingly.

Alexis


There you go with another ethnic word that is totally not the social norm anymore! Good grief Alexis, is Clarke county rubbing off on you?
Originally Posted by byzanTN
The words to on eagles wings are fine, and I have never had any objection to them. It's the music that's totally cheesy and lacking in any kind of sacred character - something Pope Benedict keeps stating as necessary for church music. It's by Michael Joncas who missed his time and calling by not composing silent music scores. He writes some of the most horrid music I have ever heard. And yes, he has written far, far worse than on eagles wings. He wrote a setting of the Magnificat that a crazed local choir director pulled out for a diocesan function. It would have been appropriate stylistically for camel herding, since it had a "Lawrence of Arabia" tone.

Define cheesy and sacred-ness.
Saying "black people" isn't appropriate? It's respectful where I come from and in where I live, and so I will continue to use it.

Is it offensive for you to be called "white?" It doesn't offend me.

Though my friend's mother is African-American; she is a white woman of English descent from South Africa!

Alexis
Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 07:46 PM
Let's not be so touchy about descriptions. Sheesh. Come on! How about giving Garrett (Logos-Alexis) a break? smile

I lived in NYC most of my life, and I now live right outside of it, so all network news and newspapers for me are NYC news, and I can tell you that many African-Americans still call it the 'Black community'.

Quote
Though my friend's mother is African-American; she is a white woman of English descent from South Africa

Now that must really put her in a world of her own!! wink

Alice
A friend of mine who is Egyptian invariably describes himself as African-American. Drives people crazy!

Fr. Serge
When I was in school we had a doctor of some ancient African descent.

One of the patients insisted that the doctor was African American, to which the doctor replied I was born in Jamaica and have Canadian Citizenship, there is nothing American about me!!!
This thread is now off topic. Either keep the posts on the subject or maybe it is time to close the thread. No further warnings will be given on this thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Pope Benedict has told us to look to the models of the past - Gregorian chant and polyphony - as models for sacred music used in the Mass. Joncas aint' it. It has to do with everything in the church, heaven on earth, being set aside for the service of God. The instruments, the vessels, and the music are set aside exclusively for holy purposes. They are not mirrors of what is going on outside in the world.
Posted By: John K Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/24/07 11:31 PM
I'll stick to the polyphony, gregorian and anglican chant, and solid hymns from the Hymnal 1982 that I hear and sing most every week at the Anglo-Catholic parish I've been attending. I think that dignified, reverent, and timeless are the qualities church music must have, regardless of the period that they are written in. The pope is right for holding these up as models, it's another thing to have them in practice, especially in the US.
I say good for Pope Benedict! The Vatican should really be a world leader in liturgical music, but I've had qualms with what I've seen in the past few years. It would be good for them to set an example of how it's "done right" for the rest of the Latin Church.

I was going to give my two cents on the "Eagles Wings" controversy, but I'll post that in a new thread.
Marty didn't write either one of these. As sentimentally appreciated as these tunes may be, I'm not sure we want to be establishing the standard of good Church music based simply on what people like or know. We must recall our obligation to give God the best from our treasury of resources. Contemporary stuff might tug the heart from time to time, but we need music that is worthy of the God who created our entire being, not just our emotions.

Many Years
We have a similar problem in the East. One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk. Whilst beautiful musical compositions, well worthy of any concert hall, I question their validity in actual Divine Services. I mean, are we there to worship God, or to hear a concert? My own druthers lie more towards Obikhod and Novogorod chants. Plain old Kievan Plain Chant is quite beautiful, as well as the Prostopenije of the Carpathian peoples. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but if it ain't in the Sputnik Psalomschik, it doesn't belong in Church.

My 2 kopechki,

Alexandr
Posted By: Edmac Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/25/07 01:33 PM
Difficult question. I do not think that the works of the
composers in question should entirely be excluded from services
in the Eastern Churches, nor that the Masses of Mozart and
Haydn, for example, should be excluded from the Latin Church
These works do give glory to God. I agree that they should not
be used at all frequently.

I trust no one has ever attempted a guitar Divine Liturgy?
Give thanks!

Edmac
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Saying "black people" isn't appropriate? It's respectful where I come from and in where I live, and so I will continue to use it.

Is it offensive for you to be called "white?" It doesn't offend me.

Though my friend's mother is African-American; she is a white woman of English descent from South Africa!

Alexis

It was the word before spiritual that I meant.
Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy.
It was the word before spiritual that I meant.


As it happens, that particularly genre of music is known around the world as 'Negro Spirituals', with no pejorative overtones.
Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/26/07 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
We have a similar problem in the East. One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk. Whilst beautiful musical compositions, well worthy of any concert hall, I question their validity in actual Divine Services. I mean, are we there to worship God, or to hear a concert? My own druthers lie more towards Obikhod and Novogorod chants. Plain old Kievan Plain Chant is quite beautiful, as well as the Prostopenije of the Carpathian peoples. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but if it ain't in the Sputnik Psalomschik, it doesn't belong in Church.

My 2 kopechki,

Alexandr

It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, commissioned by Peter the Great, who were, ofcourse contemporary for that time, to be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile
Originally Posted by Edmac
I trust no one has ever attempted a guitar Divine Liturgy?
Give thanks!

Edmac

Unfortunately, I have witnessed one at Sts. Cyril & Methodius Cathedral in Kosice, Slovakia. In another posting on this forum (Re: Checking in with the Old Country Post #261214 - 11-09-2007 08:28), I supplied links to photos from Kosice showing this.

Ung, you said that you have witnessed one there as well, right?

Quote
One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk.

Bortniansky modern?!!! He was a composer during the reign of Catherine the Great! Generally, he's considered Baroque.

Plus, I'm not sure he ever really did a setting of the Divine Liturgy. Most of the recordings of his music are for religious concertos meant to be sung after the liturgy. Apparently these were a favorite of Catherine.
Quote
No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox.

Tell me about it! We went from Palestrina to Marty Haugan in the span of ten years.

Here's some good music:

http://www.s-clements.org/Music_AudioLibrary.html
Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
We have a similar problem in the East. One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk. Whilst beautiful musical compositions, well worthy of any concert hall, I question their validity in actual Divine Services. I mean, are we there to worship God, or to hear a concert? My own druthers lie more towards Obikhod and Novogorod chants. Plain old Kievan Plain Chant is quite beautiful, as well as the Prostopenije of the Carpathian peoples. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but if it ain't in the Sputnik Psalomschik, it doesn't belong in Church.

My 2 kopechki,

Alexandr

It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, commissioned by Peter the Great, who were, ofcourse contemporary for that time, to be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

Peter the Great (that is, Peter I, Tsar of Russia, if you are referring to that "Peter the Great") lived from 1672-1725.

Sergei Rachmaninov lived from 1873 to 1943, and spent the last years of his life in California.

Peter I. Tchaikovsky lived from 1840 to 1893.

Dmitri Bortniansky lived from 1751 to 1825. He's probably the only one of the three who actually and regularly composed acapella choral works designed for use in the Orthodox liturgy, so critcizing his music because its used in an Orthodox or Eastern Rite church service is like criticizing a Roman Catholic church for using the "Kyrie" melody from one of Bach's masses.

I'm having trouble seeing the connection between Peter I and these other Russian composers.

And while I haven't read every post in this thread, I have to say that generally, I am in agreement that the Roman Catholic musical tradition is probably the poorest in all Christendom. But this is not just because of the post Vatican II reforms and the "hippies" that took over the reigns of liturgical music. The whole concept of the Tridentine Mass does not encourage congregational participation. The priest is set apart, facing away from the congregation, and the language is foreign. The priest is doing ALL the "heavy lifting," both in concept and practice. (I know a person in the congregation of an Eastern rite church, an Orthodox church, or even a Protestant church could technically sleep through the service, but there is a much greater expectation and concept of individual participation). Vatican II reforms sought to bring the congregation onto more of a level plane in the course of the Mass -- make each participant more responsible. One could argue that the efforts to do this either didn't work or went too far afield from established principles of scripture and church tradition, but I think the intent was right. But the musical atmosphere in Roman rite churches has not just the 60s hippie mentality, but hundreds of years of a concept that the congregation did not necessarily participate, and certainly didn't SING.

There can be a lot of criticisms offered up about Orthodox or Byzantine Liturgy by any number of camps, but one thing they cannot say is that Eastern Rite churches do not SING. And because of the emphasis on vocal musical expression, the concept of participating is much more natural.
Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/28/07 03:11 PM
The Westernisation of Russia was begun by Peter the Great (1672 � 1725). In the early 18th century this western leaning at the time of the reign of Empress Anna (1730-40), led to a preoccupation with European, especially Italian, art, architecture and music. Italian, and later in the century, French operatic styles became extremely popular. Foreign creative artists were enticed with lavish incentives to come to the court of Saint Petersburg.

Prior to Peter the Great, musicians in Russia had no contact with the sounds of Western Europe; they developed their own beautiful and unique musical styles, which are not often heard today (although they are extensively quoted by Rachmaninov). Beginning with Italian composer Francesco Araja (who presented the first opera seria in Russian in 1736), Russia's musical life was dominated by foreign musicians into the 19th century....

http://www.roq.org.au/music/classical_music

Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/28/07 03:34 PM
P.S. I made an error in saying that they were commissioned by Peter the Great--I meant the spirit of their music, ie: westernizing, was first entertained by Peter the Great.

Alice
Originally Posted by Alice
P.S. I made an error in saying that they were commissioned by Peter the Great--I meant the spirit of their music, ie: westernizing, was first entertained by Peter the Great.

Alice

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Interestingly though, if you continue to read the article you link to, it discusses how hard Russian composers in the 19th and 20th century worked to preserve Russian's unique musical traditions.

Quote
It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, commissioned by Peter the Great, who were, ofcourse contemporary for that time, to be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

So did the Emperors, Kings, and Bishops of the time.

See, Mozart's Masses etc...

What has happened with our modern Catholic music would be for President Putin or Patriarch Alexij to commission a Divine Liturgy from one of these guys:

http://www.aquarium.ru:8083/main.html

http://www.nautilus.ru/begin.htm
Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/28/07 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Quote
It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

So did the Emperors, Kings, and Bishops of the time.

See, Mozart's Masses etc...

What has happened with our modern Catholic music would be for President Putin or Patriarch Alexij to commission a Divine Liturgy from one of these guys:

http://www.aquarium.ru:8083/main.html

http://www.nautilus.ru/begin.htm

Ofcourse! Please forgive me if I have offended...but notice, I said 'modern twentieth century music'. I am moved to no end by Gregorian chant and the great and famous composers of Protestant hymns.

In Christ,
Alice
I think we agree but are talking past each other. smile
I demand that the moderators ban the word "Kumbaya" from this Forum forever and ever, Amen! just seeing the word wants to make me woof all over the keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: Edmac Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/28/07 09:08 PM
Now, Jonn, don't be so intolerant. People who sing, er, that
song are God's children, too. Perhaps if Fr. Serge would
translate it into Old Irish and have someone set it to a
traditional Russian chant it would be more acceptable. At least
we wouldn't understand what was being sung. Ditto for that
other old favorite, "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore".

Edmac
I've said once before how in our Methodist hymnal at my old Church, "Kumbaya" is LITERALLY right next to "Kyrie Eleison" *set to Russian chant*.

Alexis
Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Are they singing Kumbaya? biggrin

What was the other one about Michael rowing that %*$& boat ashore? I never figured out what that ever had to do with anything even remotely religious.

Ignorance breeds contempt...


"Michael, Row the Boat Ashore" is a Negro spiritual. Originally published after the Civil War, it was no doubt sung by slaves of the antebellum era. Spirituals were a form of religious expression. The lyrics speak of crossing the Jordan River, which in these spirituals is a metaphor of death. Reaching the shore is in essence attaining the Promised Land, ie, heaven. Given the subhuman experience of slaves, spirituals adapted many OT themes, especially those related to the children of Israel's Eygptian bondage and Exodus. Songs of this genre offered hope in a time of hopelessness.

I know where it came from, and it was significant in its original context. It's like many other things that become rather worthless when taken from the people and context that produced them. I can assure you that middle-class, 60s, hippie nuns with guitars didn't do much suffering. The only suffering was from those of us who had to listen to them. However, I have yet to discover how that song had or has any liturgical place or significance.
Posted By: Alice Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/28/07 11:01 PM
The only guitar playing Catholic music that I thought was wonderful were the hits (Dominique, etc.) of the 'Singing Nun'? This nun wore a full habit at the time, by the way...

This was a time when solid Catholic culture was still very strong in the world.

I was just a young child then, but I remember hearing her on my 'transistor radio' (which was a 'way cool' gadget for then), and seeing them on the Ed Sullivan Show!

Does anyone else here remember them from the early 1960's?

Alice

P.S. A quick google search delivered a sad story of her life--a post Vatican II tragedy which affected many nuns in those years.



Posted By: Edmac Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/29/07 01:40 AM
Yes, I remember. Faith with very shallow roots; the whole story
of post VII Catholcism.The shallowness was no doing of VatII.
It was exploited by the knaves and scoundrels who abounded in those times, and we were afflicted by having the worst pope in
the hisotry of the Church, Paul the Gutless, Coward of Rome.

Edmac
Posted By: MrsMW Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/29/07 02:02 AM
When Pope Paul said " the smoke of Satan had entered the Church" he should have said he opened the window. No disrespect intended.
Originally Posted by Edmac
Yes, I remember. Faith with very shallow roots; the whole story of post VII Catholcism.The shallowness was no doing of VatII. It was exploited by the knaves and scoundrels who abounded in those times, and we were afflicted by having the worst pope in
the hisotry of the Church, Paul the Gutless, Coward of Rome.

Edmac

One may disagree with Pope Paul VI (or any pope or poster). Yet the spirit of charity demands that we do not refer to anyone as either "Gutless" or "Coward".

I ask Edmac to withdraw and apologize.
Originally Posted by Alice
The only guitar playing Catholic music that I thought was wonderful were the hits (Dominique, etc.) of the 'Singing Nun'? This nun wore a full habit at the time, by the way...

This was a time when solid Catholic culture was still very strong in the world.

I was just a young child then, but I remember hearing her on my 'transistor radio' (which was a 'way cool' gadget for then), and seeing them on the Ed Sullivan Show!

Does anyone else here remember them from the early 1960's?

Alice

P.S. A quick google search delivered a sad story of her life--a post Vatican II tragedy which affected many nuns in those years.

Debbie Reynolds played the Singing Nun in the movie. Ricardo Montalban was also in the movie.
Originally Posted by Alice
The only guitar playing Catholic music that I thought was wonderful were the hits (Dominique, etc.) of the 'Singing Nun'? This nun wore a full habit at the time, by the way...

This was a time when solid Catholic culture was still very strong in the world.

I was just a young child then, but I remember hearing her on my 'transistor radio' (which was a 'way cool' gadget for then), and seeing them on the Ed Sullivan Show!

Does anyone else here remember them from the early 1960's?

Alice

P.S. A quick google search delivered a sad story of her life--a post Vatican II tragedy which affected many nuns in those years.

I remember the "singing nun" and I even remember transistor radios. You're right, Catholic culture was very different then. We are dating ourselves, Alice. wink
Transistor radios? You young whippersnapper! I remember vacuum tubes and the wonderful tube tester at the local hardware store where you went to check your tubes when the radio stopped working.

Starik
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Transistor radios? You young whippersnapper! I remember vacuum tubes and the wonderful tube tester at the local hardware store where you went to check your tubes when the radio stopped working.

Starik

I remember those tube testers, too, but for TV tubes. The radios were becoming transistorized by then. Either that, or we had an older TV - 3 channels in glorious black and white.
Posted By: Edmac Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 11/29/07 03:18 AM
Administrator;

I will neither withdraw nor apologize. I do consider Paul VI
to have been a good, holy and well-meaning man but an utter
disaster as a pope, and culpably so. We have had popes of
dissolute life who have not as much damage to the Church
as Paul VI did by his failure to exercise the authority given
him by God. On whose shoulders rests the burden of the
degradation of Catholic worship from the mid-60's but on his?
He was a man ill-suited to his office. I don't know if you
lived through the horrors of those years, but I did. Since his
death God has given us two great and holy popes who must work
to undo the evils that Paul could not or would not strive to
prevent.

If you disagree, fine. Please give reasons.

Edmac
OK, now that we have discussed advances in technology, can this thread get back on topic now?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Dear Edmac,

Your reasons still do not justify uncharitable name calling. Since you have refused the administrator's request for an apology and retraction, your posting privileges are hereby suspended until such time as you are willing to do so. This must be done publicly as was your initial comments. Until such time this thread will be closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Posted By: Edmac Re: Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music - 12/02/07 10:28 PM
I apologise to Fr. Anthony and the readers of this thread for
both my uncharitable remarks about our late Holy Father Pope
Paul VI and for my public remarks to Fr. Anthony, which were
not only rude and arrogant but ill-considered.

I repeat my belief that Pope Paul was a good and holy man who
in no way consented to the abuses that he saw going on around
him. That he was unable to cope with them more effectively than
he did is a pity, but I am increasingly of the opinion that the
Holy Spirit was and is at work in all these things, purging
and renewing the Church. Witness the fact that He has since
given us two great Popes.

Edmac
Dear Ed,

Thank you and welcome back. I will be closing this thread back up again.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
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