It would seem that the Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese (ACAD -- the group which followed Mar Bawai when he left the Assyrian Church of the East) has now come into full communion with the Catholic Church and has become part of the Chaldean Catholic Church. See http://www.kaldaya.net/2008/DailyNews/05/May12_08_E2_Unity.html .

Peace,
Alex NvV

I really hate to nit-pick, but why are the priests wearing stoles over their suits?

Dave

Dave,
Are you talking about the Knights of Columbus or the clergy?
The priests are in stoles because this wasn't the Divine Liturgy, for Morning/Even prayers, the Eastern Syriac Churches normally wear a stole over the black cassock, if a stole is worn at all.. normally the stole doesn't come on until later, vesting takes place after Morning Prayer before Qurbana (Liturgy) begins.

No worries. It is only nit-picking if you are using the question in a rhetorical way to crticize.

Is that a Dominican Sister present at the celebration?

The pictures are lovely.

Thanks for sharing all the lovely pictures of the day.

Well, I would expect that, but it looks like the priests are just in clerical suits, not in cassocks.

Dave

Dave,

I see one particular cleric - wearing glasses - who looks to be the one about whom you're asking. I agree, he looks to be in a suit, else it's a very close-fitting cassock.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

There's also this photo, from the church consecration:

http://www.kaldaya.net/2008/images/UnityPrayer_May12/StMathew_Consecration/pages/20_jpg.htm

Regardless, these seem like joyful events for those communities involved.

Dave

Thank you for the good news!!

On this rock I will build my Church Mt 16:18

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I looked at the pictures, too, and wondered if the clerics in suits were the Assyrian clerics being received into the Catholic Church. The reason is another matter.

On another note, I wonder what this will do for future relations with the Church of the East.

BOB

While it looks odd, technically they weren't violating any rules.. the "norm" of clerical clothing in the USA are those suits with the collar, not the black cassock, although the latter is usually an rare optional. (not my preference, but no one asked me..)

Shlomo Bob,

Which one, the Church of the East is divided in two. With one Patriarch in Iraq (Mar Addai II Givarghis) and the other in the United States (Mar Dinkha IV Khananya).

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Yuhannon:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

If I'm not mistaken, the group being received was part of the Assyrian Church of the East in the United States. But regardless, I wonder how these things help or hinder ecumenical relations. The bishop who was received, if I am not mistaken, was in some kind of trouble with his own synod and Patriarch. That muddies the water a bit.

I don't by any means lament the coming together of separated brethren. But I just wonder how that goes down with the larger group from which these brothers come.

In Christ,

BOB

Some within the AssyrianCoE laity seem to be incensed, the ones that see conspiracy in every corner... something about Jesuit strategy and Vatican backroom dealings.. it reads like something from the fringe One&Only-TrueCalendar groups in Orthodox countries, or Jack Chick here in the States.
Mar Bawai had traveled to Australia and to the Patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East before making this move, but he has not said anything publicly regarding their stance.
I think this will probably end ecumenical dialogue with the AssyrianCoE for a time, since a handful of troublemakers seem to have crossed over from being angry to making violent threats.

I noticed that whenever we wrote about this series of events on our group blog - really, any post that so much as mentioned "Mar Bawai" - within hours we would have some of the rudest, most vitriolic and defammatory comments being made about Mar Bawai and the priests, deacons and laity that came into union with him. I don't know if it was several individuals who happened to be engaged in the same combox warrior campaign or if it was otherwise organized.

There is a very angry subset who is remarkably vocal. I would not be surprised if talks shut down for several years to let them (and those that then answered them) cool off for a bit.

While some here may rejoice in the further splintering of an ancient Apostolic Church, others most assuredly do not.

Rather than just suspending 'talks' for a time, the Catholicos should well consider terminating them permanently and abrogating any 'understandings' previously reached with the Patriarch of Rome (i.e. the "Common Chrtistological Declaration Between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East" and "Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East").

Hopefully these events will serve as a wake up call to Mar Dinkha and bring to the forefront the stark reality of the price any church eventually pays when dealing with the devil (price = literally; devil = metaphorically).
.

Never mind that (going by your profile) as an Antiochian Orthodox in your play book the repudiation of the join Christological declarations (which puts the Assyrians squarely in the position of orthodoxy from the Antiochian vantage point) would be a step backwards from what your own Church recognizes as orthodox.

So the question is begged, why would you propose such a thing and what is your driving motivation. Being newer here (this being your fourth post out and the first I have read) I don't have a great understanding of your style of argument rooted in the experience of reading other posts from you... But I am left to wonder if anti-Roman animosity is trumping a legitimately wonderful advance. Why on earth else would an Orthodox call for the Assyrians to repudiate Christiological declarations that helped to solidify that the "Nestorians" were in fact not Nestorian all these centuries after all? Save for an anti-Roman ideology, this call of yours makes no sense.

You are thinking it is wiser for the Assyrians - largely fleeing or having fled the homeland, with their Patriarch in Chicago, and the Oriental Orthodox blocking their admission to the Middle Eastern Council of Churches to embrace further isolation? If and when a bishop like Mar Bawai comes to an understanding of the Catholic Church that compels him to follow a path to unia he should not?

Calling for repudiation of orthodox statements because the fruit in this case has lead to greater unia seems rather like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

And the comments about "dealing with the devil" - I am sorry, no quick disclaimer about metaphor changes the insult leveled there.

Read carefully - "abrogating any 'understandings' previously reached with the Patriarch of Rome" - as I am quite sure you understand were you not trying to be obtuse, I was alluding not to the theological clairifications contained within the Christoligical Declaration, but rather a repudiation of the connection the Declaration has with the Archbishop of Rome.

As for the Church of the East and its past and present splintering due in large part to its interaction with your 'churches' - the reality speaks for itself. If you find the allusion to dealing with the devil offensive, imagine how those left dealing with the aftermath of such dealings must feel.
.

If that is the tone you take - do not be surprised if your time here is short.

As strongly as we disagree with each other from time to time, I was always proud of the fact that we talk to each other with more civility than that.

Referring to our churches with quotation marks is rude.

If you think I misunderstand your point, charitably clarify, don't make reference to being obtuse.

If you think your insults are OK because you percieve us to be insulting, that is remarkably telling and sad.

I second this.

I will third this and make it official. I hereby remind our brother in Christ, Heracleides, that charity is a requirement on this Forum. He may disagree strongly with the teachings of Rome (and that is OK). But he may not compare the Catholic Church (her earthly leader, the pope, or any of her members or representatives) or any Church or people as the "devil". Should he continued he will be quickly be invited to leave.

I don't understand the poster's animosity here. Mar Bawai was already excommunicated from the AssyrianCoE, by which he was already separated from that Church. He had started the Assyrian Catholic Apostolic 'Church of the East' with his own priests, deacons, and laity. Whether or not Mar Bawai joined the Chaldean Church, he would have been separated from the AssyrianCoE. So what exactly is the beef here with him, other than disagreeing with his reasons? Had Mar Bawai not joined the Chaldean Church, there would have been 4 splinters within the Assyrian East Syriac community (AssyrianCoE, AncientCoE, Chaldean Catholic, and ACACoE), now that the Chaldean Church and ACACoE have become one, the further fracture has been mitigated.

Mar Bawai reconciliation with the Catholic Church draws many parallels to that of Mar Ivanios of the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church. He was the one deputized to conduct talks for reconciliation, agreements were made, the Holy Synod agreed.. for whatever reason when the time came, the majority pulled out of the agreement and Mar Ivanios was the lone bishop to reconcile (eventually more joined, when they saw that the union was successful and that the Church didn't lose it's Traditions).

Michael Thoma:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed he is Risen!!

Thank you for the clarification about this bishop and his flock. I didn't know the full story when I was "wondering" above. I thought he was simply suspended and there was a possibility of reconciliation with his Patriarch. If one is out in the cold, so to speak, it does make sense to examine one's position and seek to be re-established with an Apostolic Church so that one has, again, the roots one started with.

If I, by my "wondering" started this vitriolic exchange, please forgive me. My learning curve is slow and close to the ground.

In Christ,

BOB

Thank you for rembering me the figure of Mar Ivanios.
A question
In a site (catholic-hierarchy [catholic-hierarchy.org] ) is written that Mar Ivanios was ordained bishop in 1932 after his union with the Catholic Church, while in other sites (link [lightoflife.com] ) is written that Mar Ivanios was ordained bishop in 1925 still by the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.
Probably he was ordained bishop two times: but this is quite strange because I supposed that the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of apostolic succession the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.

Also Mar Bawai Soro shall be ordained bishop by Catholic bishops?

Dear Antv,

The Catholic-Hierarchy site is incorrect, Mar Ivanios was ordained to the episcopate by Moran Mor Beselios Geevarghese I, Catholicos of the Malankara Church in 1925. When he became Catholic, he was formally appointed to the titular See in Feb. 1932 and installed to the titular See in May 1932. He was soon moved to the See in Trivandrum.

Michael is technically correct. David Cheney, a Latin Catholic and the admin/webmaster/owner of Catholic-Hierarchy.org (and a member here) does an incredible job of single-handedly maintaining that site - which is a treasure of information. He is, understandably, a bit hampered at times by the difficulty involved in appropriately identifying and documenting some of the little "peculiarities" that don't fit the usual pattern - the majority of which seem to involve our Churches .

David is, however, very open to corrections and suggestions that will make his site more historically accurate. I'm going to be in contact with him sometime in the next few weeks about a couple of other matters and I'll bring this to his attention at that time.

Many years,

Neil

One person does that?! Amazing.

This very interesting development has now come to the attention of Britain's Catholic Herald newspaper: "Thousands of Iraqi Christians cross the Tiber" [catholicherald.co.uk] (23 May 2008).

News to me too!

Hats off to that gent. That is NO small feat.

Mar Bawai Soro

by Father Robert Taft, S.J.
June 6, 2006
Rome

The contribution of His Grace Mar Bawai Soro, bishop of the Church of the East, to the survival in the modern world of his ancient Apostolic Church, has been incalculable. This zealous and brilliant religious leader of his people recognized early in his religious ministry that his Assyrian people and Church, no longer isolated from the rest of the world in its mountainous Haykkari redoubt, would survive only if they abandoned the isolation that history and persecution within the Ottoman EmpireHis Grace Mar Bawai Soro had imposed on them, and entered into ecumenical and intellectual dialogue and cooperation with the other �Sister Churches� of Apostolic Christianity. To further this goal, Mar Bawai did not rest content at having achieved episcopal dignity, supreme sacrament in the ecclesial hierarchy of the Apostolic Churches, but became a humble student again, going back to school to get his doctorate in Rome, while at the same time fostering the graduate-level education of the younger Assyrian clergy, to form for the first time in the history of his Church and people an educated religious elite, leading them forward to meet the new challenges of the third Christian millennium.

Mar Bawai�s path-breaking 2002 doctoral dissertation represents the first modern, scholarly presentation of its own tradition by a leader of the ancient, Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East. This Church has only in recent decades been able to exit from the ghetto, into which historical circumstances had forced it, and to earn its place as a respected dialogue partner in the broader ecumenical world of Apostolic Christianity. Once published, this dissertation will be of inestimable value in the life of the Church of the East by assisting it in its own self-understanding and in communicating to its own faithful the riches of its age-old tradition, beyond the myths, in a way acceptable to modern historiography.

It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of this work not only for the Church of the East itself, which by this very fact is issuing from the cave in which it has been hidden for countless centuries. It is also of seminal importance for ecumenical dialogue with the Catholic and other Orthodox Apostolic Churches, which will be forced to abandon the clich�s by which they have judged the Church of the East and its age-old distinct tradition, forcing it into their own legitimate but particular and therefore limited framework.

Historically, it has ever been the temptation of ecclesial communions to universalize their own particular traditions and modes of theological expression and vocabulary, and to judge everyone else by their own yardstick. This is what the Catholic and Byzantine Orthodox Churches did during the great Christological Councils of Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), and Constantinople II (553); and only modern scholarship and ecumenism, beyond all polemics and myths, can resolve these problems. Recent ecumenical agreements between the Catholic Church and the Church of the East have resolved the Nestorian problem of Ephesus (431) to the mutual satisfaction of both sides in the dialogue.

What Mar Bawai�s scholarship has done is provide the wide-ranging historical and patristic backup for those epoch-making ecumenical agreements, placing the apostolic origins of the Assyrian Church of the East in its historical context and retracing it within its own historical framework, and not simply as an appendage to the Churches of the Roman Empire. This revisionist view of the Church of the East and its teaching as seen by itself, from within, and not as usually presented by those outside the tradition, is in full accord with the latest modern scholarship on the topic, which has one by one overturned the cliche- ridden commonplaces of the past, and will surely be recognized as the most valuable overall study of this tradition in any modern language.

This is how Churches must defend and preserve their heritage in the modern world: not by defensiveness and withdrawal, hiding from others, holding them at a distance out of fear and a lack of self-confidence, but by reaching out to all in ways the modern world understands. By so doing, Mar Bawai has made his beloved Church of the East a witness to the world of today. Apostolic Christianity will survive in the eyes of the modern secular and scientific world as a viable creed and way of life only if it is studied and explained with complete historico-critical objectivity by scholars who gain the respect of that secular world.

In a world that no longer cares what or if one believes, or what, if any, ecclesiastic rank one holds, this respect is gained only by the intellectual rigor of one�s scholarship. In providing his Church this kind of episcopal leadership, Mar Bawai has been an example to us all. The present difficulties are in many ways, perhaps, a ricochet of what Mar Bawai has accomplished among those more fearful of the modern realities. But in the light of his unbending loyalty to his Church and tradition and his efforts to lead them into the world of the third millennium, with God�s help these problems will pass. That is my prayer for Mar Bawai Soro, one of my dearest friends, and for his beloved Church of the East.

On January 21, 2007, Father Taft spoke at Mar Yosip Cathedral in San Jose, California.
His talk can be heard online.
Father Taft at Mar Yosip Cathedral [marbawai.com]

I'm sorry that I was so late in seeing this thread. There is a new article that was just recently published:

http://www.kaldaya.net/2008/DailyNews/05/May26_08_E1_Unity_Issue.html

To elaborate on what Michael Thoma wrote, Mar Bawai had been involved deeply in the ecumenical talks and the understandings that the Assyrian CotE had with the Catholic Church. At a point where much progress had been made, suddenly the Assyrian side decided to disengage. I personally believe that this had to do with not desiring accountability, which would be in force when they are in communion with so many churches in the Catholic Church. I state that as my personal belief, and will not pursue the "why" anymore, but just the "what" happened.

At this point, many of us were left in a state of wondering what is going on. Like I have said before, if the theological differences were settled... if our tradition was respected... if even the matter of our revered fathers was something that was open to discussion... and with the CotE's great respect to the place of Rome... what was the hold up? The fact that it is good for brothers to be together. If our professed faith is the same, then we should be together, and to remain apart is uncharitable.

Things took a definite turn when Mar Bawai was unfairly treated. Funny things is, even in the last synod, H.G. Mar Bawai took the opportunity to re-emphasize the need for unity efforts to continue, and also the preeminence of Rome's patriarchs among all other patriarchs. Even while his brother bishops were trying to stop our bishop's voice and activity, he tried to reason with them bishops and have them continue in the path which I can only describe as the True path.

In some ways, it is unfortunate that the talks were not continued, in that many issues that remained to be dealt with between our churches were not yet resolved. But Mar Bawai, and those of us now united will continue to work to resolve them... within the framework of the Catholic Church, which allows for these types of issues to be worked on and respects the apostolic traditions of all the churches that form it.

This has not been an easy thing for us by far. Anyone criticizing slowness of things happening should realize that the bishops are not only worried about undergoing changes, but are concerned about the rest of their brothers in their communion and their flocks which they have been charged to take care of. I do not envy bishops their jobs, and I can only pray God give them strength and wisdom to carry through and act according to His Will, and thank Him for the bishops like Mar Bawai and many others who work diligently at it.

Peace,

Dear Anthony,


Could you explain what you mean by "accountability", please? Is it linked to the suspicion that some/all of the clergy are favor the party seeking an independent Kurdistan?

Best regards,
Michael

Dear Michael,

Sorry for not being clear when I wrote that. Although I have some strong political views, I tend to try to leave them out of my thoughts when writing about the Church.

What I meant by accountability was about being responsible to the apostolic traditions and canon laws of our own church. When you are in communion with so many brother bishops, and the Pope and other Patriarchs, then when they speak to advice you into following the apostolic laws and traditions, then you must give weight to their words, if anything out of the Love which binds us all in communion.

One example can be seen in the latest action against Mar Bawai. One of the bishops opposing him was questioned about what actions can lead to a suspension like that which happened to Mar Bawai. After listing them, he was asked one by one if Mar Bawai had committed them... he admitted that he had not committed any of them. If we were in communion, the decision could have been appealed. Canon lawyers would have sat down and reviewed things. They would likely have found a way in which the unjust treatment of our bishop would be overturned WHILE saving face for the synod and the patriarch.

This has happened in the past in other churches in communion with Rome. This is accountability.

Another example. Some heretical and uncharitable things written in our Assyrian religious books in the 20th century with the rise of nationalistic tendency of the Assyrian Church. These were approved by the Patriarchs, even though in them there was snuck in a concerted effort to pervert our tradition and faith. I am sure that if the scholars in the other Chaldean Church of the East had read these things, and if Rome and the other patriarchates had seen it, then our patriarchs {this is happening over a long time period} would have gotten rebuked.

Lord have mercy... it is dangerous when people try to use the Church to glorify anything or anyone other than God.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

Thank you very much for your speedy reply!

I understand very well now what you mean by accountability. And I hope that Mar Bawai's travails can serve your Church as a strong focus for reconciliation among themselves. With so many Iraqi Christians being displaced and forced into exile, I know, and I hope you know, there are many fellow Christians who pray for you all, and hope you will be spared more pain.

In Christ,
Michael

Dear Michael,

Thank you. I know and am glad. I think and pray for our people in the mideast and for all Christians in the mideast, but I am glad that there are many petitioning for them with more powerful and humble prayers than mine.

Peace,

Be mindful, O Lord, of all those who are persecuted for the sake of Your Holy Name. Grant them Your grace, Your help, and Your strength to endure the suffering You allow them to have at the hands of their persecutors. Grant that they may always remember that this life, which passes so quickly away, is nothing compared to that life of blessedness which You have prepared for those who remain faithful. Grant that none may be lost due to human weakness, but let all be saved by Your great mercy. Through the prayers of the Mother of God, who is, by Your gracious gift from the Cross, our Mother, Lord hear and answer our pleas on behalf of our persecuted brothers and sister. AMEN.

Dear Anthony,

Do keep us updated about Mar Bawai's status, I would like to invite him to my parish in Chicago - but of course if he were to con-celebrate he would first have to be in full Communion with the Syro-Malankara Church.

Dear brother Michael Thoma,

If Mar Bawai and his Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese are now part of the Chaldean Catholic Church, are they not already in full communion with the entire Catholic Church and, thus, with the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church?

BTW, I'm quite pleased to see the discussion this has created.


Peace,
Alex NvV

Dear Alex, good to see you around here!
The ACAD has decided to join the Chaldean Church, but Mar Bawai asked to be received as Bishop. This has to be approved by the Chaldean Patriarchal Synod and presumably confirmed by the Holy See. If this happens, he will be in Union with all the Churches of the Catholic Communion.

Thanks for the clarification!

Alex

What wonderful and good news for Christians. Truly: How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but it does sound like Mar Bawai IS in full communion with the Syro-Malankaran Church (and the rest of the Churches of the Catholic Communion).

The only question is whether, as Bishop (which I also presume there is no doubt), he is given charge over the flock he had previously been shepherd of. That is a matter for the Patriarch and Synod (which presumably includes Mar Bawai himself) to decide. Or have I missed something?

Based on the CCEO, I think there are 2 distinct levels to be considered:

(1) As a group, the ACAD has been effectively accepted into full communion with the Catholic Church (via the Chaldean Catholic Church) and, therefore, H.G. Bishop Mar Bawai and all the clergy and laity are now Catholic and are in communion with all of the Churches in the Catholic communion. The local Chaldean Bishop has the power and authority to accept the request of the ACAD for full communion and was made effective by the mere profession of faith by all, which did happen.

(2) However, additionally for H.G. Mar Bawai, who apparently requested communion also as a Bishop, his continued exercise of his episcopal power and authority in the Chaldean Church must be approved first either by the Pope or by the Chaldean Patriarch, with the consent of the Chaldean Holy Synod, where the right to receive non-Catholic Eastern Bishops reside. Pending such approval by either, H.G. Mar Bawai has no episcopal assignment and his exercise of episcopal powers and authority are temporarily held in abeyance.

Amado

Amado,

According to your view, can Mar Bawai presently function in his priestly role - Sacraments, Eucharist - except for his High priestly role, which is awaiting approval and confirmation?

Yes, as all of the clergy who came into communion with him!

Moreover, I think the pendency of the requisite approval operates also as a temporary suspension of his authority over the ACAD clergy and laity, who are under the omophorion of the receiving local Chaldean Bishop.

H.G. Mar Bawai cannot be even an auxiliary to the local Chaldean Bishop. His future assignment may come with the appropriate approval of his reception as Bishop either by the Pope or by the Chaldean Patriarch with the consent of the Chaldean Holy Synod.

My guess is that he will be formally received as a Bishop by the Chaldean Patriarch, with the consent of the Chaldean Holy Synod, and with the assent of the Pope later to the assignment. Then, H.G. Mar Bawai will be ceremonially installed as a Bishop to his assigned diocese, in Iraq or elsewhere in the world.

Amado

Thank you Amado for your explanation.

As you explained it, so has been my understanding as well. Mar Bawai is applying to be accepted as bishop to exercise an episcopal role in the Catholic Church. It should be a long process, unlike entering communion in that it is not a matter of salvation anymore but rather an ecclesiastic matter... and the Catholic Church should be careful when it comes to that.

One thing I just wanted to clarify. In terms of ecclesiastic purpose and as an entity, ACAD no longer exists. The parishes that we belong to now are part of the diocese to which they were admitted and are under the authorities of the bishops of those diocese {is there a plural "dioceses"?}.

Peace,
Anthony

Dear Anthony:

Yes, this is a distinctive feature of ecclesial authority in the Catholic Church.

The power to appoint/assign Bishops resides in the "Supreme Authority" in the Catholic church, who is the Pope and, in the case of Eastern Catholic Churches, the Patriarch or chief hierarch, with the consent of the Holy Synod or Council of Hierarchs.

Each particular Eastern Catholic Church, in appropraute cases, has "supreme authority" within their respective territorial jurisidiction while the Pope exercises it in the diaspora, and throughout the world for the Latin Church.

I think the rationale behind it is to preserve good order in the universal Catholic Church.

If the number of faithful is sufficient and a separate territorial jurisdiction can be carved out of the existing Chaldean diocese in the area, H.G. Mar Bawai may yet still become the bishop for most of the former ACAD faithful and for some additions from "old" Chaldean faithful who fall within that newly created diocese.

Amado

Dear Anthony,

I was wondering if you could help me with something - I found a video of a beautiful song dedicated to the Blessed Mother, but it sounds like it's in Arabic interspersed with Syriac; when you get time, could you translate the lyrics for me?

The video is here [youtube.com].

Can you tell if the singer is Assyrian-Chaldean or is he Maronite? In any case, Great voice!

Dear Michael,

Unfortunately, I don't speak Arabic. I was actually born in Iran and understand sparse amounts of Farsi. I can try to see if one of my friends can translate it for me. If I get any luck in doing that, I will post it here.

It sounds beautiful, thank you for the link. I'll be playing it quite a bit.

In Him,
Anthony

Hi,

I would like to compound the discussion a little bit.

I would agree that the episcopal ministry of Mar Bawai changed dramatically when he and his flock were received into full communion with the Catholic Church.

However, Catholic sacramental theology being what it is, Mar Bawai is a bishop and will always be a bishop. He has not been suspended, so I do not see why he cannot exercise applicable aspects of his episcopal ministry today.

Granted, since his jurisdiction disappeared, he cannot exercise any acts of jurisdiction, but a bishop is more than a presbyter with jurisdiction.

As long as he is in communion with the Catholic Church, he should be able to exercise his apostolic ministry of teacher of the faith and high priest of God's priestly people, just like any other titular bishop would do.

Shalom,
Memo

Dear Memo:

Essentially, we are in agreement.

Mar Bawai continues to possess episcopal powers and authority. He did not lose these when entering into full communion with the Catholic Church. His ordination as Bishop by the ACE is valid, as well as the ordination of the clergy who came in with him.

But Mar Bawai's exercise of his episcopal powers and authority is temporarily held in abeyance pending his formal reception by competent Church authority as provided in the CCEO and his subsequent assignment to a diocese of the Chaldean Catholic Church or, as you say, as a titular Bishop.

On the other hand, the lower clergy of the ACAD can continue to exercise their respective presbyteral or diaconal ministries without interruption.

Amado

I don't know if this has been posted in this discussion, but it was emailed to me by one of the RC deacons in the Birmingham Diocese. I thought you might find it interesting.

This recent news article has an interesting explanation by a Eastern Orthodox bishop for the Primacy of the Pope.

Assyrian Community Joins Catholic Church: A large commu�nity of Assyrian Catholics in Tur�lock , Calif. , has entered full communion with the Catholic Church by entering�en masse, with their bishop, Mar Bawai Soro, six priests, 30-plus deacons and subdeacons, and 3,000 of the lay faithful�the Chaldean Catholic Diocese of St. Peter and St. Paul .

The members of the Assyrian Church of the East (the first major Church to separate from Rome , in 431) were all received into full communion during liturgical cele�brations for the Feast of Pentecost [2008], according to an announcement of the Chaldean Catholic Church.

According to the Rorate Coeli web site: "Mar Bawai Soro has long advocated the Primacy of the See of Rome. On November 2, 2005, he presented to the Synod of Bishops of the Assyrian Church of the East (of which he was a bishop at that time) a paper entitled The Position of the Church of the East Theological Tradition on the Ques�tions of Church Unity and Full Communion in which, among other things, he stated that:

' The Church of the East attributes a prominent role to Saint Peter and a significant place for the Church of Rome in her liturgical, canonical and Patristic thoughts. There are more than 50 liturgical, canonical and Patristic citations that explicitly express such a conviction. The question before us therefore is, why there must be a primacy attributed to Saint Peter in the Church? If there is no primacy in the universal church, we shall not be able to legitimize a primacy of all the Catholicos-Patriarchs in the other apostolic churches. If the patriarchs of the apostolic churches have legitimate authority over their own respective bishops it is so because there is a principle of primacy in the universal Church. If the principle of primacy is valid for a local Church (for example, the Assyrian Church of the East), it is so because it is already valid for the universal church. If there is no Peter for the universal church there could not be Peter for the local Church. If all the apostles are equal in authority by virtue of the gift of the Spirit, and if the bishops are the successors of the Apostles, based on what then has one of these bishops (i.e., the Catholicos-Patriarchs) authority over the other bishops?

' The Church of the East possesses a theological, liturgical and canonical tradition in which she clearly values the primacy of Peter among the rest of the Apostles and their churches and the relationship Peter has with his successors in the Church of Rome. The official organ of our Church of the East, Mar Abdisho of Soba, the last theologian in our Church before its fall, based himself on such an understanding when he collected his famous Nomocanon in which he clearly states the following: �To the Great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid [in the grave] there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [ Rome ] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs.� (Memra 9; Risha 1) Furthermore, Abdisho asserts �. . . . And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema.� (Memra 9; Risha 8). I would like to ask here the following: who among us would dare to think that he or she is more learned than Abdisho of Soba, or that they are more sincere to the church of our forefather than Mar Abdisho himself? This is true especially since we the members of the Holy Synod have in 2004 affirmed Mar Abdisho�s List of Seven Sacraments as the official list of the Assyrian Church of the East. How much more then we ought to consider examining and receiving Abdisho�s Synodical legislation in his Nomocanon? '

"Five days later, Mar Bawai was suspended by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church .... Following upon his suspension, Mar Bawai and the clergy and faithful who had re�mained loyal to him formed the Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Dio�cese, then proceeded to draw ever closer to the Catholic Church through the Chaldean Catholic Patriarchate."

The Assyrian Church is not in Communion with any Orthodox Communion - neither Eastern nor Oriental. The statements are interesting and encouraging nonetheless!

1. According to the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, in addition to the Holy Father, the Patriarch and Synod of Bishops of an Eastern Catholic Church have the right to receive a Bishop of a non-Catholic Eastern Church into communion with the Catholic Church (CCEO can. 898 � 1). Clearly, this is a canonical process which takes some time.

2. Interestingly, there is a fairly recent precedent for Bishop Bawai Soro's situation. Bishop Paul Philoxinus Ayyamkulangara of the Malabar Independent Syrian Church was received into full communion with the Catholic Church on Aug. 28, 1977, and on Oct. 11 that year was assigned a titular see. For the remaining 21 years of his life he served as a Bishop of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (cf. Annuario Pontificio 1994 or another relevant year).

3. Therefore, I think one can fully expect that the Bishop Bawai Soro will soon be assigned to a titular see, and also that he will be canonically appointed to some pastoral office either by the Holy Father or by the Synod of Bishops of the Chaldean Catholic Church. I'm watching for any news of this from the Holy See Press Office.

Interesting to note: His Grace Metropolitan Paulos Mor Philexinos was the head bishop of the MISC when he came into the Catholic Church.

Shlamalokhon

I would say that Rome should erect a separate jurisdiction for them, or an "Assyrian Diocese" within the Chaldean Patriarchate. Otherwise, as some have pointed out, Mar Bawai would loose his authority and it would be fair for him to become a bishop of a new diocese, as he was the one that promoted union with the Catholic Church.

There's also one thing: the faithful come from the Assyrian Church, they indentify themselves as Assyrians, not as Chaldeans.

ܫܵܠܡܵܐ ܐܸܠܵܘܟܼܘܿܢ

Benedicite!

Surely the whole point of the exercise is to establish communion and unity between Chaldeans and Assyrians?

I'd say the majority of "Chaldeans" refer to themselves as Assyrian as well - they claim to be religiously belonging to the 'Assyrian'-"Chaldean" Church (of the East), but are ethnically Assyrian. Even the past Patriarch of the Chaldean Church claimed to be Assyrian, and while the current Patriarch prefers to be labeled as a "Chaldean", he doesn't deny his ethnic Assyrian identity.

I recall a conversation with an older attorney in the early '90's. When asked his ethinicity, he would say "Mesopotanian" because he didn't want to s ay "Iraqi"

hawk

Shlomo Hawk,

In actuality what it is, is that most Christians from the Middle East do not wish to identified as Arabs. Even my own Church people claim to be either Phoenician or Syriac.

Many of us who are third or fourth generation call ourselves Arabs. It does not really matter to us.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

What about the Melkites (and the Jerusalem Patriarchate followers, the Antiochian Orthodox, etc.)?

I am told that those that did not have a form of Aramaic in their liturgy (Chaldeans, Suryoyo, Assyrians, Maronite) were originally groups of Arabs, Greeks and Romans (and a mixture of them) who supported the Byzantine Empire and then fully adopted the culture and language of the Arab rulers.

From what I know, the first group of Christians identify themselves as indigenous (Aramaic) but the second group do identify themselves as Arabs. In fact the Baath Party (Arab Nationalist Party) was partly founded by Byzantine-Rite Christians.

However, I have read that there are Byzantine-Rite villages where Aramaic is spoken (and it's really surprising that the Aramaic language survived where the local christians did not preserve it in their liturgy).

And regarding the situation in the Assyrian Church of the East, this would make things complicated for the current leadership that does not enjoy the sympathy of an important part of the faithful. On one side, a lot of people will leave the ACE (in the United States) to embrace Catholicism, on the other side this might have a negative impact, the Assyrian Church of the East will be less open to dialogue with the Catholic Church.

The group of Mar Bawai, coming from the ACE, for obvious reasons celebrates the liturgy without latinizations. In recent time, the Chaldean Church issued new liturgical books that removed most of them, but it will be interesting to see if the new Catholics adopt the Chaldean books or preserve those they use.

IMHO, I think that what you say depends on what is meant by "Latinization". Without in any way wishing to impugn the devotion, greatness and heroism of the Chaldean Church, the Chaldean church does retain a lot of "Tridentine" Latinizations (Latin-style copes used as their equivalent of the chasuble, lace albs that would make any TLM-celebrating priest proud, Latin-style miters) as well as "Neo-Latinizations" such as ad populum liturgies (in some areas).

As for the newly revised Chaldean liturgy, it differs significantly from the old Assyrian liturgy and the principles which were invoked to simplify the Chaldean Divine Liturgy are quite similar to those operative in the liturgical reforms of the Latin Rite in the 1960's and 1970's. I am pointing this out, not in order to say that the revised Chaldean liturgy is "bad" -- by no means! -- but rather to point out that what can seem to be "delatinization" and "repristination" for some, may in fact look like a new wave of Latinizations for others (especially since the liturgical reforms in the Latin Church in the 1960's also sought "repristination" and a return to the primitive liturgy of the early Church)

Doesn't the ACE priestly vestment look very close to a Gothic style cope?

As to miters, I think the ACE bishops (or at least the Patriarch) wears a crown.

I actually had the pleasure of sitting down with Fr. Michael Birnie, pastor of St. Thomas Assyrian Parish in Seattle, which was part of the group of Assyrians that recently entered the Catholic Church. He made no mention of adopting a new liturgy; they use an English translation of the Assyrian Qurbono that I gathered he had translated himself some time ago. When I visited the parish last week they hadn't even yet added the Chaldean Bishop, Patriarch, or the Pope to the commemorations yet, though he said he was planning on adding them to the texts ASAP (he's been recovering from a stroke, and that has limited his energy).

Adding those commemorations were the only changes planned, apparently. I'm pretty sure that one of the "conditions" of their entry, if such a term can even properly be used, was that they wouldn't have to abandon anything they already practiced. So far as I know that's perfectly acceptable to the wider Chaldean Church, but I've not heard anything official.

Basically they struck me as "Assyrians in Communion with Rome, with the Chaldean Church". Since the traditional Liturgy of Addai and Mari is now fully accepted by the Catholic Communion, I doubt there will be much impetus for them to change anything. What I did come away with was the impression that these folks have considered themselves Catholic for awhile now, and I bet I would have been welcome to Commune in their parish before things became "official" in recent weeks. They even had pictures of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI in their community room, right beside their parish photos and pictures of their Bishops and Patriarchs.

Of course I'm a total outsider with very little experience with the Assyrian tradition, and I'm only relating what I was told by Fr. Michael, and my general impression.

Peace and God bless!

Shlama Yuhannon,

Assyro-Chaldeans are not Arabs. We are not descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham.

God bless,

CC

Benedicite!

This an interesting point. The supporters of the Byzantine Empire, probably regardless of ethnic origin, were called Melkites. Indeed, ملكي malakī can mean both "royal" and "monarchist" in Arabic. Following the 1724 schism in the Patriarchate of Antioch between Greek Catholics and Greek Orthodox, only the former are called Melkites. However, I find it interesting that the groups are called الروم الكاثوليك الملكيون al-rūm al-kāthūlīk al-malakīyūn and الروم الأرثوذكس al-rūm al-urthūdhuks, literally "Roman" Catholics and "Roman" Orthodox. But of course the Rome to which this refers is the "New Rome," Constantinople.

Indeed, Michel ʿAflaq (1910‒1989), who has been described as the ideological founder of Baʿthism, was born into a Greek Orthodox middle-class family in Damascus. To members of the urban Christian middle class, mainly Greek Orthodox or Greek Catholic, secular Arab nationalism seemed a good alternative to political Islām and perhaps the only way for Christians to achieve equal rights with Muslims in the Arab world. Rural Aramaic-speaking Christians, on the other hand, were for obvious reasons in no position to take part in this middle-class urban movement.

I have been to the small town of Maʿlūlā north of Damascus, where it is said that Aramaic is still spoken (see this recent article [nytimes.com] in The New York Times). The town's two monasteries, however, are Greek Orthodox (St. Thecla) and Greek Catholic (St. Sergius and St. Bacchus).

The question of language has a lot to do with geography. For example, the urbanized Syriac Catholics I met in Damascus spoke only Arabic, while the more rural Greek Catholics and Greek Orthodox in Maʿlūlā continued to use at least some Aramaic. Similarly, I believe most urban Maronites speak much better French and English than Aramaic!

This, then, is only one more example of the fact that there is not always a clear correspondence between the liturgical language and the everyday spoken language. As long as the Christian faithful are properly instructed in the meaning of the liturgy, however, I do not necessarily see this as a problem.

Actually, as late as the end of the nineteenth century, the terminology "Melkite Orthodox" was still in some usage for the Antiochians in the Old Country.

Many years,

Neil

Benedicite!

Interesting! Thanks for pointing this out!

Assyrian bishop explains his journey into communion with the Catholic Church [catholicnewsagency.com]

Dear All,

We who just recently came into communion do not actually want a separate jurisdiction from the Chaldean Church. We joined the Church of the East which is in communion with Rome in the understanding that it is better to unite rather than to create another splinter of the Church of the East.

One thing to keep in mind also is that the Chaldean Church right now already has many people who consider themselves Assyrians. That is why on kaldu.org, you will see the diocese for Chaldeans and Assyrians.

Mar Bawai himself is a very humble man. He is awaiting the decision of the Chaldean Church and Rome as to what his role will be, and he does not want to carve up any diocese or create his own jurisdiction.

One comment in regards to what was said about the revised liturgy. The changes made to it are actually quite steeped in the tradition of the early Church of the East. In a lecture given to us deacons, Mar Sarhad was able to reference both Synodical records and the earliest commentaries on the Church of the East liturgy to support the changes that were made to it. The lecture is online on kaldu.org, but unfortunately it is not in English.

In Him,
Anthony

Benedicite!


I wish you all the best and every success in this great work!



From what Fr. Robert Taft, S.J., has said [americancatholicpress.org] about Mar Bawai Soro, he appears to be a zealous pastor and a considerable scholar who will surely be a most valuable and welcome addition both to the Synod of Bishops of the Chaldean Church and indeed to the whole College of Bishops of the Catholic Church.

Shlomo CC,

I understand that, but for most purposes we are Arabs. We have become Arabized. Arab Nationalism was revived by Christians. To use a couple of quotes from Raja Mattar (An Arab Christian):

The renaissance of Arab culture owes a great deal to the many Christian Arab scholars who were among the forerunners in shaping Arab national identity.

The Maronites role, in particular, was of major cultural importance. In Lebanon they are the backbone of its cultural diversity. A Saudi friend once commented that if the Maronites did not exist we would have to invent them!

Is there such a thing as an Arab ethnicity at present? I think not.

There is, however, such a thing as an Arab culture...Culture is the language they speak, the poetry they recite, the songs they sing, the foods they eat, the music they dance to, and the history they share.

Trying to find ethnic slots in which to place various peoples is first an exercise in futility, and second in racism. Cultures do exist, however, and whether we like it or not, whether some scattered thinkers in and outside the Arab world like it or not, whether some self-hating Arabs like it or not, we are - for better or for worse - part of the Arab culture. Arab Christians have contributed a lot to this culture, and they should be proud of their contributions. Those who deny this heritage are reneging on their cultural roots and trying to identify with some extinct civilizations. They are turning their backs on the Christian giants of Arab culture - the Gibrans, the Naimehs, the Bustanis, the Yazigis, the Zeidans, the various Khourys, the Abou Madis, the Maaloofs, the Al-Akhtals (old and new), and yes, the Fayrouzes, the Rahbanis, the Al Roumis - and trying to find their heroes in the tombs of Byblos and the sarcophagi of Egypt.

There are many agitators who have a political agenda and are keen to distort history and statistics to fit such an agenda, imagining ethnic differences where none exist. They are either alien to this culture - or have alienated themselves from it - and are trying to fabricate falsehoods and pass them on as history to uninformed listeners or readers. They are trying to invent for Arab Christians an artificial identity antagonistic to the environment they have always been part of, not realizing -or maybe they are - that by nurturing such a rift they might be creating among Arab Christians an anti-Islamic 'fifth column', disloyal to its own culture and probably imperiling whole Christian communities in the Arab Middle East. And for what? To toady to Israel and its patrons in the U.S.?

The point is we are Americans, Canadians, etc. by culture, we are also Arabs by culture.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlama Yuhannon,

Assyrians and Chaldeans have maintained the Aramaic language, poetry, songs, foods, music, and history. Granted, there has occurred a certain amount of Arabization among our people, but it has not been as strong among us Mesopotamians, as it has happened among the Maronites and other Syro-Antiochenes.

You identify yourselves as Arabs, that is up to you. We don't, and we prefer not to be spoken of as Arabs.

I lived in Iraq, and now I live in an American culture with an American citizenship, and I speak English, Arabic, and Aramaic, but I don't identify myself as English or Arab.

CC

Shlomo Chaldean Catholic,



As I stated before, many Maronites directly from the old country do not want to identify as Arabs because of the civil war, but I come from an Arab speaking country, and have do not have a big problem with people calling me an Arab.


Well the U.S. government defines you as an Arab. This is what the Census says:

People providing a general response to the ancestry question,
such as Arab, Arabic, North African, or Middle Eastern (which you are), were also categorized as Arab.


First I have to say that you are using a shibboleth. That is here in America are national language is English, and as a citizen you are an American (which does not have an ethnic component), therefore your use of the English analogy is false. As for how you identify yourself I will respect that but I will point out as I stated before, that many of those that call themselves Arabs are in fact former Christians and Jews that converted to Islam.

Therefore, Arab has moved from the definition of Arabian peninsular tribes, to be those peoples that have Arab Culture and language as their primary language.

Lastly, in nearly all the parishes for the Chaldean Catholic Church here in the United States including both of the Cathedrals have Arabic Divine Liturgies, so that does negate the point that your people have not been Arabized.

As I stated I will call you by what you wish, and lets leave it at that.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlama Yuhannon,


As I mentioned, we Assyrians/Chaldeans prefer not to be identified as Arabs, because we are not Arabs. I have no control over what the US government decides to identify us.


I have no problem being called an American, because American is not an ethnicity. I do have a problem being called an Arab, because Arab is an ethnicity, and I am not ethnically Arab.

As for English, that is connected with Anglo-Saxon, and I am not Anglo-Saxon, therefore, I'm not English.


Arab is not our culture, and not our primary language. Some of our people have adopted Arabic in the Middle East, just like some of us have adopted English here, but our traditional language, the language that the majority of our grandparents and parents use in daily conversation is still Aramaic, and always has been.


Yes, we have Arabic liturgies for the sake of those who prefer or need them, just as we have English liturgies as the vernacular language here for the sake of the younger generation that wants it. However, the official language of our Church is Aramaic, and always has been. Our primary liturgy is the Aramaic liturgy. The majority of our people attend the Aramaic liturgy.

Our first ever US-born man ordained a priest is about 30 years old now, and only speaks English and Aramaic, because English is the vernacular and Aramaic is the official. He doesn't know Arabic because Arabic is not the traditional and primary language of our Church. Those priests that come from Iraq know Arabic, but do not speak it as the primary language among the Church and Church community. Aramaic remains the traditional, official, and primary language of our Church.

If you re-read what I wrote, I did not say that my people have not been Arabized, I said that the Arabization has not been as strong among us Mesopotamians, as it has happened among you Maronites and other Syro-Antiochenes.

CC

Shlomo CC,

As I said, lets just drop it.


But I do have to correct you on a mistake that you have made above, the first ever U.S. born priest ordained into the Chaldean Church was Fr. Jon Buffington. He was ordained in 1981 by His Beatitude, Mar Emmanuel III (Delly) of course this was before his election as Patriarch. Fr. Buffington served as Chancellor of the Eparchy of St. Thomas the Apostle. And he confirms that he is the very first U.S. born Chaldean Catholic priest. He is still a Chaldean priest and he resides in the Eparchy of St. Peter.

If you would like to know more about him let me know and I will provide the details that Fr. Jon feels like sharing.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlama Yuhannon,

I'm curious about this priest, Fr. Jon Buffington, in that this is the first time I've ever heard of him. We were told in St. Peter Chaldean Church that when Fr. Andrew Younan (the priest I referred to) was ordained, that he was the first American-born Chaldean priest.

I just found out Fr. Jon's picture and the info. on him in this link:
www.olpretreat.org/2008_36th_Summer_Inst.pdf [olpretreat.org]

I see now that when they told us that Fr. Andrew was the first, they meant the first American-born of Assyro-Chaldean ancestry to be ordained a Chaldean priest.

You may PM me any details that you have on Fr. Jon that you can share. Thanks for the info.

CC

Shlomo CC,


What would you like to know. Write, to me, and I will e-mail Abuna Jon. I will let you know he is nearing retirement. Mar Sarhad has been trying to get him to come down to San Diego, but he does not like all the freeways. Now on the other hand if want to establish a parish in Oregon he may be willing to do so.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Yuhannon,

Perhaps I'm reading the article incorrectly, but it seems to me that Fr. Jon wasn't the first non-Assyrian ordained in the Chaldean Church as the article implies that Fr. Jon was already ordained a Latin Rite priest and transferred Canonical Enrollment to the Chaldean Church - at least that's how it reads to me.

Peace,

Michael

Shlomo Michael Thoma,


No he was not a Latin priest. He was Canonically Ordained into the Chaldean Catholic Church. He is now a bi-ritual priest, but he is still priest of the Chaldean Catholic Church enrolled in the Eparchy of St. Peter.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Good Heavens - it pays to read the Forum. I knew Father Jon Buffington (he speaks Sureth, by the way) when he was serving as Secretary-Chancellor in Detroit in the 1980s and I was serving Bishop Isidore in Toronto. Father Jon and I would occasionally meet in Stratford to have dinner and attend the Shakespeare Festival, and would fairly often see one another in Detroit (I still have good friends in that part of Michigan). He and I lost track of each other several years ago, but I should like to get back in touch. Can anyone provide me with either an e-mail address or a postal address for Father Jon?

Fr. Serge

Now it's been about a year since the "ecclesial unity" was realized. Does anyone know what is happening with Mar Bawai Soro and his group of Assyrian/Chaldean Christians? I hope things are going well. Are there any indications on what Mar Bawai's future role as a Bishop in the Catholic Church may be, if any?