www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Anna Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/06/12 11:31 PM
This looks interesting:

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2012/11/06/conference-on-married-priests-in-rome-november-13th/
Posted By: Lester S Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/07/12 06:04 AM
Interesting indeed! Thanks, for this, Anna
Posted By: Francois Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/07/12 02:50 PM
It will be interesting. The speakers are outstanding! Unfortunately I'm not able to attend.....
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/07/12 04:52 PM
While it is hopeful that Eastern Catholics are discussing this I am afraid that the Hierarchy of Rome will not allow married priests in the USA.

it is an odd response since they ordain DROVES of Episcopal Priests who are married into the Latin Catholic Rite.

It confuses Eastern Catholics - especially married men who would gladly fill the need for priests - and creating an artificial
deficit of priests in the church.

I am not sure but could not the Ruthenians use more priests?
The Melkites? The Ukrainian Cahtolics?

It bothers me to hear for prayers for vocations in our church
that I guarantee will go unanswered. My church does not have a deacon (yet) - I saw a video of several Byz Cath churches without deacons - what is up with that?

It is especially distressing when I know many many viable - able bodied men ready to serve.

It is sad.
Posted By: Lester S Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/07/12 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by haydukovich
While it is hopeful that Eastern Catholics are discussing this I am afraid that the Hierarchy of Rome will not allow married priests in the USA.

it is an odd response since they ordain DROVES of Episcopal Priests who are married into the Latin Catholic Rite.

It confuses Eastern Catholics - especially married men who would gladly fill the need for priests - and creating an artificial
deficit of priests in the church.

I am not sure but could not the Ruthenians use more priests?
The Melkites? The Ukrainian Cahtolics?

It bothers me to hear for prayers for vocations in our church
that I guarantee will go unanswered. My church does not have a deacon (yet) - I saw a video of several Byz Cath churches without deacons - what is up with that?

It is especially distressing when I know many many viable - able bodied men ready to serve.

It is sad.


Agreed.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/07/12 07:22 PM
So, Eastern Catholic bishops should just grow something between their legs and start ordaining married men. There really isn't anything Rome can do about that, except complain. The truth is, a lot of Eastern Catholic bishops like celibate priests--they are cheaper (no need to pay a "living wage" in accordance with Catholic social doctrine), easier to move around like pawns on a chessboard (no irate Panis complaining about having to pull the kids out of school because her husband is being moved to a new parish), and easier to browbeat (no Panis to put some spine into their husbands). If we don't ordain married men, it's basically our fault, not Rome's.
Posted By: Lester S Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
So, Eastern Catholic bishops should just grow something between their legs and start ordaining married men. There really isn't anything Rome can do about that, except complain. The truth is, a lot of Eastern Catholic bishops like celibate priests--they are cheaper (no need to pay a "living wage" in accordance with Catholic social doctrine), easier to move around like pawns on a chessboard (no irate Panis complaining about having to pull the kids out of school because her husband is being moved to a new parish), and easier to browbeat (no Panis to put some spine into their husbands). If we don't ordain married men, it's basically our fault, not Rome's.


well said.
Posted By: Slavophile Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 10:27 AM
Indeed, Stuart.

But can I ask: is it not the Ruthenians alone who will not ordain married me? I know of at least one married Ukrainian who was recently ordained priest in Stamford. And of course, north of the 49th parallel, they ordain married men all the time.
Posted By: Hesychios Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 02:40 PM
That looks like a short 'Who's Who' of notable Catholic priests of the Byzantine-Slavonic tradition.

Father Peter Galadza - Canada
Father Lawrence Cross - Australia
Father Thomas Loya - USA

I am not really familiar with the others, but these three are well worth paying attention to.

Posted By: DMD Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 04:28 PM
Please note for the record that Protopresbyter James Dutko is an Orthodox priest from ACROD in the United States and the son of an Orthodox priest whose family, along with Bishop Orestes Chornock, entered into Orthodoxy in 1938 from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic tradition following the imposition of Ea Semper and Cum Data Fuerit. His presence is significant,from both a substantive as well as a symbolic perspective. Father James has been an Orthodox memeber of the North American Catholic Orthodox Theological Consultation since its inception some three decades ago.

Like many men of that time, Father James' grandfathers were actively involved in the KOVO (Committee for the Preservation of the Eastern Rite - the organization which eventually morphed into the ACROD.) His maternal grandfather was actually excommunicated from the Greek Catholic Church as an officer of the Greek Catholic Union during the years leading up to the creation of ACROD for being one of the signators to the appeal filed with Pope Pius XI following Bishop Basil Takach's efforts to impose celibacy.

His late father, Msgr. Stephen Dutko, was one of the first married priests ordained by Orthodox Bishop Orestes Chornock in 1942 and served the Church for nearly seventy years prior to his repose in 2009. His nephew is a second year Seminarian at Christ the Savior Seminary in Johnstown. To add a bit more flavor to the presentation, Fr. James is directly related to Blessed Pavel of Presov through his paternal grandmother. He has a cousin on his father's side of the family who is a married Greek Catholic priest serving the Greek Catholic community in Plsen, Czech republic - a country with a decidedly Latin Rite majority and one in which married Greek Catholic clergy are apparently not on Rome's radar.

Fr. Jim will be delivering a message which needs to be heard in Rome - that is that the traditions of the Eastern Church need to be honored in their time-honored entirety, as was promised at the time of the Unions, if the Church of Rome ever is to expect the Orthodox to believe in Rome's sincerity in matters ecumenical.

I will keep you posted about this event as I learn more.
Posted By: Lester S Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 05:21 PM
thank you, for this, DMD - plenty of background.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 06:31 PM
The Ruthenians alone do not make a practice of ordaining married men outside of the United States and then returning them here to be pastors. In other words, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, they alone obey the spirit, as well as the letter, of Ea Semper.

Bishop Nicholas of Newton has indicated his desire to begin ordaining married men right here, without prior notification of Rome, but is hampered to some extent by the Melkites' reliance on the Ruthenian semnary in Pittsburgh, which, for some reason, is considered to be "unsuitable" for married seminarians. Go figure.
Posted By: Nelson Chase Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 06:36 PM
Quote
Bishop Nicholas of Newton has indicated his desire to begin ordaining married men right here, without prior notification of Rome, but is hampered to some extent by the Melkites' reliance on the Ruthenian semnary in Pittsburgh, which, for some reason, is considered to be "unsuitable" for married seminarians. Go figure.

So the two married seminarian Deacons, from the Ruthenian Church, studying advanced theology at Byzantine Catholic Seminary don't count?

Don't get me wrong I think we need to restore the practice but our Bishops are heading in that direction. Maybe it is not as fast as some would like but they are heading that way.
Posted By: 8IronBob Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 06:40 PM
One thing that surprises me is that there are not only married priests in the UGCC, but the fact that the priests are quite young, in their 30s and 40s, as opposed to priests in the Ruthenian Church that are middle-aged or seniors. Seems like they must be doing something right in the Ukrainian Church. I only wish that more and more Ruthenian Clergy could be married and ordained, let alone bring in newly ordained priests into the Ruthenian Church at all. Sad times indeed around here.
Originally Posted by StuartK
The Ruthenians alone do not make a practice of ordaining married men outside of the United States and then returning them here to be pastors. In other words, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, they alone obey the spirit, as well as the letter, of Ea Semper.

Bishop Nicholas of Newton has indicated his desire to begin ordaining married men right here, without prior notification of Rome, but is hampered to some extent by the Melkites' reliance on the Ruthenian semnary in Pittsburgh, which, for some reason, is considered to be "unsuitable" for married seminarians. Go figure.

Why not use one of the Orthodox seminaries?
Posted By: JBenedict Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 08:49 PM
For one thing, that wouldn't exactly be uncontroversial among the Orthodox.
Posted By: DMD Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 09:31 PM
Considering that SS. Cyril and Methodius and Christ the Savior ACROD in Johnstown have shared some faculty for years, that isn't such a crazy idea - the Melkites might find a receptive voice in the new Bishop as he is Greek by ethnicity and could provide a bit of balance from all of the Slavic studies?? Just wondering....
Posted By: DMD Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 09:38 PM
I have to say that parishes need to be prepared for a married priest and a family after seventy years of celibacy. At Holy Spirit in Binghamton only those old enough to remember Fr. Aldabert Bihary who was removed from St. Michael's (from which Holy Spirit came after the split) in 1937 by Bishop Takach have the slightest recollection of family life in the rectory. Those folks are now few and far between. The typical coming in and going out of lay folks in the rectory with a celibate priest won't be acceptable to most Panis who will want some privacy. Health insurance for the family will be a must and so on. It can be done - I am a witness to that having been a 'PK'in the Orthodox church, but growing pains are going to happen.

I would also note that it must be painful for young men in American Ruthenian Greek Catholic parishes who feel a vocation but not a call to celibacy to see young men from Europe and Canada being accepted as their clergy while they are left on the outside looking in.

As I said, this issue is a 'litmus' test issue to the Orthodox - if something non-dogmatic like this can be ignored, how can there be any trust on dogmatic understandings?
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 10:07 PM
Quote
Why not use one of the Orthodox seminaries?

The famous suggestion that got be black listed from this forum so many years ago. Of course, I also suggested this would allow us to focus on the things that really concern us, like bingo and piroghi making. I say, true then, true now.

Quote
For one thing, that wouldn't exactly be uncontroversial among the Orthodox.
But we already send students to St. Vlads, St. Tikhons and Holy Cross, usually at the graduate level. And in Ukraine, both Greek Catholic and Orthodox seminarians receive instruction at the Ukrainian Catholic University (formerly Lviv Theological Academy). So it's not that controversial among the Orthodox
Posted By: JLF Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/08/12 10:22 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the current pastor of Holy Spirit (Fr Peter Tomas) in Binghamton IS a married priest with a wife and teenage son living in the rectory. When I visited there with the seminary concert tour last fall it seemed the parishioners were quite comfortable with their pastor and all was well.

Agreed he was from Slovkia, I believe, and not US born, but there are now several parishes around the country with families living in the rectory -- Kingston, PA, Sacramento, CA, Brunswick and Barberton, OH to name a few.

Jack
Originally Posted by JBenedict
For one thing, that wouldn't exactly be uncontroversial among the Orthodox.
I really doubt that's the case.
Posted By: 8IronBob Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/09/12 01:41 AM
Well, I know that Fr. Bohdan Barytsky over at St. Josaphat UGCC Cathedral is a married priest, and came from Western Ukraine (Ternopil Region). I'm not sure if he was going to be part of this conference, though.
Originally Posted by StuartK
The Ruthenians alone do not make a practice of ordaining married men outside of the United States and then returning them here to be pastors. In other words, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, they alone obey the spirit, as well as the letter, of Ea Semper.

Bishop Nicholas of Newton has indicated his desire to begin ordaining married men right here, without prior notification of Rome, but is hampered to some extent by the Melkites' reliance on the Ruthenian semnary in Pittsburgh, which, for some reason, is considered to be "unsuitable" for married seminarians. Go figure.

Not true on both counts. The Maronites, Chaldeans, Armenians, Syriacs, Copts, Ethiopians, Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars do not have married priests in the US.

And there have been and are now married seminarians at SS Cyril and Methodius.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/09/12 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Hesychios
That looks like a short 'Who's Who' of notable Catholic priests of the Byzantine-Slavonic tradition.

Father Peter Galadza - Canada
Father Lawrence Cross - Australia
Father Thomas Loya - USA

I am not really familiar with the others, but these three are well worth paying attention to.

They are indeed, as is Father James Dutko, as my brother and friend, David, has noted.

To digress for a moment ,,,

Off-topic (and it is a very worthwhile and welcome topic), but I can't pass on the opportunity to welcome back my dear brother and friend, who has been way too-long absent from these fora!

Michael, it's wonderful to see a post from you! It made my day!

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/09/12 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Not true on both counts. The Maronites, Chaldeans, Armenians, Syriacs, Copts, Ethiopians, Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars do not have married priests in the US.

And there have been and are now married seminarians at SS Cyril and Methodius.
Dear Fr. Deacon, This isn't exactly true for the Syro-Malankara; while married priests are few and far between, there is one beloved priest with kids and grandkids - http://syromalankarausa.org/content/rev-fr-pt-thomas - now retired (but very active, with bi-ritual Latin faculties, which he uses often). He was the pastor of St. Mary's Chicago and a convert from the Marthoma church.
Posted By: DMD Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/09/12 04:09 PM
Father Peter is a wonderful man and while things have not always been smooth, they are moving along with things. Ironically, Fr. Peter was ordained at the same time as my cousin, a married Greek Catholic priest now in the eparchy of Prague in the Czech republic - certainly a non-Greek Catholic land historically. Are the Roman Catholics there less likely to be 'scandalized' by married Greek Catholic priests? Are they more 'discerning' than Americans or Italian Roman Catholics (dealing there with Romanian workers who are Greek Catholic)? Again - from the Orthodox point of view - if Rome does not take the historicity of the Eastern tradition seriously on matters NOT of dogma or doctrine - why should we trust her in any future agreements dealing with dogma and doctrine? That is the salient issue here - not the minor issue of celibacy. Let the west be the west - but honor the traditions of the east - be the faithful Greek Catholic or Orthodox.
Posted By: babochka Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/09/12 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by JLF
Agreed he was from Slovkia, I believe, and not US born, but there are now several parishes around the country with families living in the rectory -- Kingston, PA, Sacramento, CA, Brunswick and Barberton, OH to name a few.

Jack


In the case of the Sacramento parish, "living in the rectory" might be a stretch, as our parish has no rectory. For the first 2 years, the "rectory" was with the in-laws. Father's family has finally been able to purchase their own house.

We love our priest and his family (he has 5 daughters). He is the priest we asked for and prayed for and we want no other, but we can't sugarcoat the financial reality of having a married priest in our parish. We are fewer than 15 families. Our past and continued existence is only by the grace of God. Father works 3 jobs to be able to support his family. He's burning the candle at both ends to make it all work. The sacrifices that he, his wife, and children make for our parish is humbling and we are forever grateful to them.

Elizabeth
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/12/12 07:37 PM
DMD - your history and that of ACROD fascinates me!
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/12/12 07:42 PM
One more point ...

it is not the fact that there are married priests in the Byz
Cath churches.


IT IS THE ONEROUS FACT THAT THEY REFUSE TO ORDAIN MARRIED MEN TO THE PRESBYTERATE IN THE USA IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO TRADITIONS.

Married Deacons aside (and I love them all) - the issue is MARRIED MEN applying to the presbyterate ... and readily and joyfully accepted - indeed sought out vs inexperienced younger celibate men.

Don't get me wrong but I'd rather get marital advise from a married priest who has a healthy sex drive as well and views sex with his wife as a gift from God ... than a celibate man.
Posted By: DMD Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/12/12 11:14 PM
I do not understand how your EC bishops can look a young man with a vocation to be a priest and serve the Eastern Catholic faith but who does not have the call to be a celibate and reject him if he is an American kid while accepting men trained and ordained in Europe. Just how are the European priests obtaining canonical releases from their ordinaries in Europe to serve in lands where apparently Ea Semper and Cum Data Fuerit still have some application - in theory if not on paper anymore? Rome prides herself on being legalistic and consistent in her application of her rules and regulations, but this makes no sense - whether it was 1894, 1929 or the present time. No wonder why people vote with their feet.I will keep you posted with news from the conference next week.
Posted By: JBenedict Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/13/12 04:00 AM
Quote
But we already send students to St. Vlads, St. Tikhons and Holy Cross, usually at the graduate level. And in Ukraine, both Greek Catholic and Orthodox seminarians receive instruction at the Ukrainian Catholic University (formerly Lviv Theological Academy). So it's not that controversial among the Orthodox

Well, graduate students are not seminarians, which is what was being discussed.

Speaking of seminarians, at St. Vladimir's, which I know best, they live on campus, serve in the chapel, sing in the choir, etc. etc. Almost certainly, then Catholics would not be full members of the community (have their confessions heard by priests there, communicate, etc.) Where the line would be drawn on other things, I can't say. But if there were a significant number of them and they were serving at the altar, singing in the choir, I bet that, even if the OCA leadership and the seminary faculty was OK with it there would be public controversy.

There's great potential for cooperation (and there should be more of it), but lets not oversell it.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/13/12 09:58 PM
If all the Greek Catholics who sing in Orthodox choirs left, there would be an awful lot of parts unsung.
Posted By: JBenedict Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/13/12 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
If all the Greek Catholics who sing in Orthodox choirs left, there would be an awful lot of parts unsung.

OK, but the informal and independent practice of parishes is different than setting up a formal program at a seminary as the result of an eparchial or higher (Catholic) and synodal (Orthodox) policy.
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/15/12 03:08 AM
DMD ... also what is the deal with ordaining Married Episcopal Priests in Latin Rite to the Priesthood vs. letting us ordain married men to the Eastern Rite?

I hope they address that or mention that is is really weird.

If you have a chance to bring it up ... please do so.
Posted By: likethethief Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/16/12 12:57 PM
Some updates from the Seminar:
CNS [catholicnews.com], US Catholic [uscatholic.org], and an interview on Vatican Radio [en.radiovaticana.va] with presenter Fr Peter Galadza, a married Ukrainian Greek Catholic prelate and professor of Oriental liturgy at the Sheptysky Institute in Ottawa (scroll down to "listen here").
Posted By: DMD Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/16/12 03:11 PM
Well, perhaps I am overly sensitive, but I find it amusing - if not troubling - that neither article mentioned that there was an Orthodox presenter at the conference offering a personal perspective on the subject. Knowing Fr. Peter, I am sure that he made the writers aware of that, but apparently it was edited out for one reason or another. Oh well...
Posted By: likethethief Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 11/16/12 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by DMD
Well, perhaps I am overly sensitive, but I find it amusing - if not troubling - that neither article mentioned that there was an Orthodox presenter at the conference offering a personal perspective on the subject.

I probably shouldn't have posted both links since in reality it is only one single article/news source, CNS/Catholic News Service, not really two articles.

Any comments on the audio interview?
I imagine Fr Tom Loya will also have something to say on his radio program when he returns.

If Fr. Peter is blogging or on here maybe he will give us his impressions.

My understanding from someone who was there is that the whole thing was recorded to offer as podcast eventually. (I was at a symposium here in SF back in Feb. that was recorded and we were told would be on Ancient Faith Radio, but still isn't so just because a group records it and says they have arranged to have it podcast doesn't mean it will be podcast smile )
Posted By: dochawk Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 05:28 AM
Originally Posted by DMD
Health insurance for the family will be a must and so on.

I spoke with our bishop a couple of years ago at his visit to our parish.

He had imported a slovakian priest. Seems there is a seminary in Slovakia that produces more priests than it can place locally, and they're all married.

Getting health insurance for the priest and his family was the hardest part of the whole process, he said.

We also had a visiting, quite young, married priest from one of the other Ruthenian eparchies visit and concelebrate a few months ago. (OK, in Las Vegas, we get more than our share of visitors, for some reason smile a couple of years ago, our little parish actually had three priests concelebrating on Saturday . . .)

hawk
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 03:45 PM
In the near term, the Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S. could look for its married priests among more mature men for whom it would represent a "second career". Being retired, they would have their own life and health insurance already, and would not have small children to support. This would ease the financial burden on the eparchies (though I note that the Orthodox manage to support married priests even at very small parishes).

Consideration should also be given to many of the married deacons in our Churches, who are already employed and have learned to balance the demands of family and ministry. If they are already employed, they should be allowed to continue that employment, exercising their ministry principally on Sundays and off-hours. In that position, they could serve as assistant pastors, or provide the Liturgy at parishes today which are served only by a priest who also must serve at several other parishes.

All of these are only transitional schemes, of course. Eventually, our parish are going to have to find some way to sustain the married priesthood from their own resources.

A reasonable compensation package for a priest with a wife and two small children should be something on the order of $75,000 per year, including rectory housing. This would allow his wife to stay at home until their children are grown, meet basic necessities, buy life and health insurance (or pay the employee's share of group insurance provided by the eparchy), and put away some money for their children's education and for retirement. By way of comparison, the manager of your local supermarket probably pulls in something north of $100,000 per year.

So, what does $75,000 mean in practical terms?

Assume a parish with 100 families. That means the average share per family is $750 per year, or $15 per week (rounding up). It would be fatuous to say this is an unsustainable burden, even if one puts this on top of whatever one is already donating each week.

Even for a parish of 50 families, we are only talking about $30 per week. On the average. Some could pay more, others might have to pay less. In cases of extreme poverty, the eparchy might subsidize the salary of the priest by the amount of the stipend already paid to celibate priests.

But still, people--if the Tradition is worth anything to you, you should be willing to support it with your money. And I know we all know people who have been going to church with us for years and years--and who still only drop a dollar in the plate each Sunday.
Posted By: Dr. Henry P. Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 04:26 PM
I agree with Stuart. There may be many married men over the age of 65 (myself included)who sense a vocation to the diaconate or priesthood. I could support my wife on my retirement income and not be a huge burden to the eparchy.
A policy of ordaining older married men would solve many objections to a married priesthood.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 05:11 PM
One ought to remember that, canonically, the minimum age for ordination to the presbyterate in the ancient Church was 33 (good number, that), which at the time was a man in the fullness of his maturity, verging upon middle age. At a time when life expectancy at age twenty was about 50, this was the equivalent of limiting ordination to men of 50 or more today. There should be no bias on the part of the hierarchy to ordaining middle aged men to the presbyterate, particularly not if the rationale is "getting a good return on investment" for the time and money spent in presbyteral formation at the seminary. But then, I've never been a big fan of seminaries.
Posted By: Paul B Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
A reasonable compensation package for a priest with a wife and two small children should be something on the order of $75,000 per year, including rectory housing. This would allow his wife to stay at home until their children are grown, meet basic necessities, buy life and health insurance (or pay the employee's share of group insurance provided by the eparchy), and put away some money for their children's education and for retirement. By way of comparison, the manager of your local supermarket probably pulls in something north of $100,000 per year.

Stuart, your high cost of living and high payscales is really evident. Here in rural northcentral PA a supermarket manager makes half of what you quote. I supported a family of five with a single income never more than $43,000. A priest, with the allowances he receives should support a family on $35,000 (plus stipends) and still be relatively comfortable.
Posted By: Nelson Chase Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 06:06 PM
Quote
Stuart, your high cost of living and high payscales is really evident. Here in rural northcentral PA a supermarket manager makes half of what you quote. I supported a family of five with a single income never more than $43,000. A priest, with the allowances he receives should support a family on $35,000 (plus stipends) and still be relatively comfortable.

I would also think the cost saving of having a rectory for the family would also help with the financial burden. Housing takes up the most form most household budgets (I know it does in mine) and having a house provided to the priest and his family would make a smaller pay check doable. Up keep is much less expensive than a mortgage payment.
Posted By: danman916 Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by StuartK
A reasonable compensation package for a priest with a wife and two small children should be something on the order of $75,000 per year, including rectory housing. This would allow his wife to stay at home until their children are grown, meet basic necessities, buy life and health insurance (or pay the employee's share of group insurance provided by the eparchy), and put away some money for their children's education and for retirement. By way of comparison, the manager of your local supermarket probably pulls in something north of $100,000 per year.

Stuart, your high cost of living and high payscales is really evident. Here in rural northcentral PA a supermarket manager makes half of what you quote. I supported a family of five with a single income never more than $43,000. A priest, with the allowances he receives should support a family on $35,000 (plus stipends) and still be relatively comfortable.
In Chicagoland, Stuart's number would be just below the middle of the income needed for a small home and cost of living for a family of 4.
Posted By: danman916 Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/04/13 07:19 PM
I have serious doubts that any Catholic under the age of 60 would be scandalized by a married priest, here in America. In fact, I would bet a C-note that people would welcome it, even in Latin Rite parishes.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 03:20 AM
So, basically, Paul says I high-balled the figure. I worked with Census Bureau figures, but that's neither here nor there. What I said was my figure was sustainable even by small parishes. Paul says a priest could live on half as much, which means married priests are eminently affordable. Any attempt to say that money is an impediment to restoring the married priesthood should be seen for what it is--a lame excuse to justify maintenance of the status quo.
Originally Posted by StuartK
So, basically, Paul says I high-balled the figure. I worked with Census Bureau figures, but that's neither here nor there. What I said was my figure was sustainable even by small parishes. Paul says a priest could live on half as much, which means married priests are eminently affordable. Any attempt to say that money is an impediment to restoring the married priesthood should be seen for what it is--a lame excuse to justify maintenance of the status quo.

Stuart,

I know his user name doesn't state it but Paul is Deacon Paul. I will also have to disagree with Fr. Deacon Paul. I have a family of six and could not make it on $45k and I live far from extravagantly. As it is some parishes could pay $75k, others could not. It is at the same time and excuse and a reality.

What will the people pay and what will they expect? They could pay $15k like a local OCA parishes pays its priest but they will have to accept the priest is going to have a full time job and still need time with his family so they will be pretty much limited to Sunday Liturgy. Or they could pay over $100k like a local GOA parish and have what they are used to.
Originally Posted by StuartK
In the near term, the Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S. could look for its married priests among more mature men for whom it would represent a "second career". Being retired, they would have their own life and health insurance already, and would not have small children to support. This would ease the financial burden on the eparchies (though I note that the Orthodox manage to support married priests even at very small parishes).

That was Metropolitan Judson's plan. I don't see any retirees lining up at SS Cyril and Methodius's door. Even the retired among my fellow deacons don't want to do this. How many retirees really want to start a full time job in retirement? Now if the bishops would consider a priest simplex idea without the years of seminary or responsibility of prish administration you might get some takers but I don't see the bishops doing this.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 01:39 PM
I knew quite a few mature individuals who would seriously considered applying for ordination IF the Church had simply made an unambiguous statement that it truly intended to ordain married men. No such statement was ever forthcoming, but a lot of temporizing and equivocation was. And you will note that I said most of these priests could, initially, be used on a part-time basis, either as assistant pastors or to celebrate the Divine Liturgy at those parishes that already lack a priest and are served by a priest already caring for two or three other parishes.

The bishops have a tendency to make better the enemy of the good, while not having any plant to implement the better.

I could accept a priest who worked full time. The Apostle Paul (not to be confused with the Deacon) did so, and still considered himself an Apostle. The Melkites have married priests who also work full time; they seem to get by.

As for the level of compensation, I picked $75,000 because that seemed to me, based on my experience in analyzing such things for companies bidding on government proposals, to be a reasonable and fair salary, particularly if housing was included as part of the deal. In some parts of the country you can get by on less, in others you might need more. But, as I showed, paying a priest $75,000 per year does not impose an insufferable burden upon the members of a parish as small as fifty families. They just have to stop being the tight-fisted people they have always been.

By way of comparison, look at the Reformed Jewish rabbinate. It is typical for a new rabbi at a suburban synagogue to make more than $100,000 per year, while an experienced rabbi at one of the elite urban synagogues might pull in more than $300,000--plus car, plus house. In comparison, are we asking so much of our people to cough up $75,000 a year so that they might celebrate the Divine Liturgy on a regular basis?
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 01:49 PM
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I have serious doubts that any Catholic under the age of 60 would be scandalized by a married priest, here in America.

You would be surprised. There is, among younger Catholics, and especially those who converted from Protestanism, a very strong streak of rigorism. I was surprised indeed to find quite a number of them militantly opposed to the ordination of married men in the Anglican ordinariate, giving reasons which one might expect to hear from some octogenarian ultramontanist: "How can a man be married to God if he's married to a woman?" "A married priest won't be able to give his full attention to his duties". Even ritual purity excuses (the cootie problem). Attempts to explain that married men already serve, and have always served, in the Eastern Churches revealed a nasty tendency towards anti-Eastern bias: married priests may be good enough for the Eastern Churches, but the Roman Church has preserved the purity of the Apostolic tradition. Pushed on the matter, it does seem they think of our married priests (never mind their own) as being "second class". They honestly believe that clerical celibacy is a divine mandate which should be obligatory in all Churches--which puts them in the position of being more Catholic than the Pope, but such is frequently the case. A lot of these new, zealous young Latins are down on everything done by Vatican II, prefer the Tridentine Mass (because they never knew it in its heyday), live in terror of clown Masses and guitars, and believe that everything was just hunky dory back in 1963, so why did the Church have to muddy the waters? They tell themselves that nothing in Vatican II is "dogmatic", so they aren't obliged to accept its teachings, and yet they profess to love and obey the Pope. They are, for all intents and purposes, non-schismatic members of the SSPX.
Posted By: JDC Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
I have serious doubts that any Catholic under the age of 60 would be scandalized by a married priest, here in America.

You would be surprised. There is, among younger Catholics, and especially those who converted from Protestanism, a very strong streak of rigorism. I was surprised indeed to find quite a number of them militantly opposed to the ordination of married men in the Anglican ordinariate, giving reasons which one might expect to hear from some octogenarian ultramontanist: "How can a man be married to God if he's married to a woman?" "A married priest won't be able to give his full attention to his duties". Even ritual purity excuses (the cootie problem). Attempts to explain that married men already serve, and have always served, in the Eastern Churches revealed a nasty tendency towards anti-Eastern bias: married priests may be good enough for the Eastern Churches, but the Roman Church has preserved the purity of the Apostolic tradition. Pushed on the matter, it does seem they think of our married priests (never mind their own) as being "second class". They honestly believe that clerical celibacy is a divine mandate which should be obligatory in all Churches--which puts them in the position of being more Catholic than the Pope, but such is frequently the case. A lot of these new, zealous young Latins are down on everything done by Vatican II, prefer the Tridentine Mass (because they never knew it in its heyday), live in terror of clown Masses and guitars, and believe that everything was just hunky dory back in 1963, so why did the Church have to muddy the waters? They tell themselves that nothing in Vatican II is "dogmatic", so they aren't obliged to accept its teachings, and yet they profess to love and obey the Pope. They are, for all intents and purposes, non-schismatic members of the SSPX.

This is a caricature which seems to exist mainly on the internet. The RC's I know of the Wacky Latin Masser Variety are entirely supportive of the Anglican ordinariate, including the ordination of married formerly Anglican ministers.

Celibacy in priests is something we value highly and recommend above any other practice.

Your remarks about the Mass and decades past entirely miss the mark, except for the caricature. Also, as a point of fact, the members of the SSPX are all "non-schismatic" so the distinction seems unnecessary, begging the question, and a strawman.

Otherwise, despite the error-ridden route you took to arrive, you are right to conclude that married clergy, except by way of exception, would not be embraced by RC's, especially those of us under 60.
Posted By: theophan Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 03:20 PM
Quote
particularly if housing was included as part of the deal

Years ago the OCA had a series in its national newspaper that discussed the place housing should have in clergy compensation. The suggestion was that if the parish provided housing rather than a housing allowance, then the priest should have some value added to the package so that hew ould not lose the equity ordinarily gained by each year he would ahve paid on a home of his own. The rationale was that at some point he would leave parish housing and need to buy his own place. Beyond that, something had to be in place in the event he died while not yet retired and his wife and family needed the money to buy a place of their own. I remember a case of a priest who died in an auto accident and his wife was given 30 days to vacate the parish home following his death. Justice seems to demand that we not make clergy families homeless in that case.

Bob
Posted By: Filipe YTOL Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 03:33 PM
I would agree that it seems to be pretty much a caricature, although I know a couple of people who might meet those standards.
Anyhow, I agree that many young catholics are way more traditionalist than their elders and so have a gut reaction against anything that seems liberal. I'd be considered one of them by many people...

However, this raises an important issue which I constantly repeat, which is the fact that married priesthood has been hijacked as a cause by ultra-liberals who also tend to promote female ordination and, worse, put them all on the same level. This is a great shame and something which will always affect serious discussion of the matter.
Even if they recognize that doctrinally they are two seperate issues, they see it as a slippery slope.
Posted By: JBenedict Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 06:53 PM
StuartK, I'd add myself to the voices pointing out that your depiction is a caricature.

I'm not even convinced it's a particularly accurate one. It's certainly not helpful to use such harsh and uncharitable words in building bridges between communities that are and should be part of the same Church.

In many places, there are strong ties between the "traditionalist" (for lack of a better word) and Eastern Rite communities. I sang Roman Vespers according to the 1962 Rite last night, tonight I'll be singing Vespers according to the Russian Rite. There's a Latin Daily Missal and a Jordanville Prayer Book sitting on the desk where I'm typing this.

(Theophan made the point I was going to make about accruing equity.)
Posted By: Utroque Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/05/13 09:17 PM
Here's an interesting take on a celibate clergy. Celibate Civil Unions [cnn.com]. Perhaps this merits another thread.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 12:41 AM
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StuartK, I'd add myself to the voices pointing out that your depiction is a caricature.

Shall I link to the discussions I had, which went pretty much the way I described? Here is one:

Understanding Married Priesthood [osv.com]
Stuart isn't depicting a caricature as I have run into the same people. For goodness sakes I've seen a married priest ordained through the pastoral provision argue against the married priesthood. There is a lot of ignorance and misconception surrounding the issue pretending it doesn't exist won't help.
Posted By: JBenedict Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 04:31 AM
Except Stuart that it wasn't. You wrote "There is, among younger Catholics, and especially those who converted from Protestanism" etc.

The conversation you link to the early critical voices that describe their backgrounds are someone who calls herself "oldwoman" and someone who says they converted in their fifties. These are not the young converts. These are not, "new, zealous young Latins."
Posted By: JBenedict Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 04:34 AM
There's a lot of ignorance and misconception about lots of things. But we can admit that without blaming it on young, Latins (converts or not converts) who like the Latin Mass, especially since many of those people are working hard to support the Eastern Churches.
Posted By: JDC Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
StuartK, I'd add myself to the voices pointing out that your depiction is a caricature.

Shall I link to the discussions I had, which went pretty much the way I described? Here is one:

Understanding Married Priesthood [osv.com]

I'm not sure if maybe I missed the part about the Latin mass and Vatican II, but from what I read you were arguing with a person demonstrating pretty comprehensive ignorance.

I point out in addition that this is another internet debate and I said to begin with that the type you describe lives mainly online.

Us nutso Latin trads, in my experience, are completely supportive of a full and perfect restoration of the Eastern traditions, as well as our own.

As far as the ordination of married formerly Anglicans, we take what seems to me now as a very Eastern approach, embracing a derivation from the law for the good of souls. The ordinariate, too, has been universally supported and rejoiced over by those of us on the rigorous fringe of RCism.

I don't want to derail the discussion and I've said my peace.
Posted By: babochka Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by dochawk
I spoke with our bishop a couple of years ago at his visit to our parish.

He had imported a slovakian priest. Seems there is a seminary in Slovakia that produces more priests than it can place locally, and they're all married.


As a member of the parish in this story, I can say it is working out well for us. He has been embraced by the local Latin community. He has bi-ritual faculties and says Mass 3 mornings a week at a local parish. I have heard nothing beyond mild surprise at the fact that we have a married priest.


We are a parish of 22 registered families, with 10-12 active families. We don't have housing for our priest and cannot afford it. Our complete annual budget for the parish is close to the $75,000 salary that Stuart suggested for a married priest. Father and his growing family lived with his in-laws for the first couple of years, and recently purchased their own house. In order to do this, Father works a full-time job in addition to his parish duties.

It has been a difficult few years for them and we are grateful the sacrifices that he and his family make in order to serve us. Hopefully, he'll be able to work part-time at his job in the near future, which will alleviate some of the stress for his family.

In spite of the difficulties, I hope that our experiences can serve as a model for how this can work in our churches.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 12:34 PM
You're right. Ten families would have to be contributing $144/wk to support a priest at $75,000. If all 22 registered families contributed, that number would fall to $65/wk, which is still too high. Suppose, though, the eparchy subsidized his salary $15,000--roughly the stipend of an unmarried priest. Then the parish would have to generate $60,000 on its own, which would be $115/wk for the ten active families, or $52/wk for all the active families. The latter is on the edge of doable, but would require real commitment from the people, who would probably have to pledge to contribute.

From this, it's clear that a very small parish--under fifty families--would have a very hard time supporting a married priest from its own resources. Such parishes would have to allow the priest to work at least part time and supplement his secular pay out of parish donation. Even then, it seems to me that fifty families is the lower level for a financially stable parish, whether the priest is married or celibate Below that threshold, income becomes too volatile: a single family where the primary breadwinner is laid off, or which suffers a medical emergency, or a house fire, or some other disaster, can reduce the already marginal parish income by 10% or more (since it is assumed that members of the parish will step up to help the family in need).
Posted By: j.a.deane Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 01:01 PM
Christ is Baptized!
I think some of this discussion is also not factoring historical perspective-in reading histories of our eparchies you hear of first generation American Greek Catholics mortgaging homes to raise funds for a parish building.

My hope and prayer is that such a dedication to the parish life will grow so that more vocations will come about and that (more importantly) those vocations will be supported-be they of older men as described above, or recent college graduates.

It will be interesting to see if the increase of vocations awareness through diaconal programs and distance learning helps fulfill some of the scenarios described above, in addition to working with priests from the "Old Country".

In XC,
JAD

Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/06/13 09:07 PM
The experiences of those first generation Greek Catholics might have something to do with the attitudes of their descendants.
Posted By: danman916 Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/07/13 02:19 PM
Well, I don't know if Stuart's post was a caricature. I have seen a little bit of it myself. I work near St. John Cantius parish here in Chi-town, and have attended early morning mass a few times, which is the old tridentine rite. There are many of us young-ins (i'm 42 so i don't know if i still qualify as a young-in) and from what I know of some in the parish there, they do match what Stuart describes in some degree.
I don't think it's particularly wide-spread, but I do think there are some pockets of it. For whatever my opinion is worth, I do think that the internet has helped spread what Stuart describes about the negative attitudes about Vatican II and the so-called clown masses.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/07/13 02:56 PM
The people about whom I was writing are, in general, college age converts to Catholicism, usually either former atheists or Evangelicals. The latter in particular view the world from the Catholic-Protestant paradigm, and label any dissent or even differences of expression from what they consider "magisterial teachings" is immediately labeled "Protestantism". For them, for instance, the Orthodox are just an exotic breed of Protestant (in the same way that many Protestants view the Orthodox as exotic Catholics). Many are definitely converts FROM Protestantism, rather than converts TO Catholicism. Their knowledge of the faith is a mile wide and an inch deep; they are deeply versed in apologetics and polemics, but not so much in history. Their objective is to beat down "heresy" as they see it. Like many former Protestants who became Orthodox, they are extremely zealous, text-oriented, and tend to take what they read at face value. They proof-text a lot, but rather than Bible verses (other than Matthew 16:18) they prefer to sling snippets of bulls and encyclicals. When pushed, they can be extremely legalistic: magisterial documents with which they disagree are "dogmatic" or "authoritative" (but Denziger is, for some reason). Ecumenical they ain't. They know nothing of the ongoing official dialogue, dismiss any and all agreed statements, and view the end game in simple terms: schismatics and heretics must repent and return to the Church of Rome. They profess to like Eastern Catholics, or at least our "pretty Mass", but deny that the Eastern Churches can deviate in any way from Latin doctrinal formulations or forms of spirituality. Overall, I'd rather spend my days with Hyperdox Herman. At least we'd be speaking the same language.
Posted By: j.a.deane Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/07/13 03:54 PM
Stuart (et al.),
Without analyzing/concluding about the reasons why the current generation is not as dedicated to helping parish life, we should look forward and ask what we can do to cultivate a vibrant and growing community where we are.

In XC,
JAD
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 01/07/13 08:03 PM
Ask for leaders who think that the Church has a future, so that we stop getting bishops who behave like trustees of a firm going through bankruptcy liquidation.
Posted By: eastwardlean? Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/19/13 01:27 AM
I am new here, so I will add my thoughts with the due newcomer to any conversation.

First, on the subject of 'scandal' that the Roman faithful might or might not experience, I think the differing judgments on the matter are likely all correct. Many (perhaps most) would not be scandalized, some doubtless would be. But, I must say that I honestly don't think that should matter. The question finally becomes whether Eastern churches are to be welcome within the Catholic communion to be themselves.
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/19/13 08:38 AM
Filipe

The Married Presbyterate has been a staple of Orthodoxy from the beginning. The mainstream Orthodox do not ordinate women so the argument that it is liberals that want married priests is wrong. The Eastern Rite demands married presbyterate in order to be given their right to their own tradtions - something promised by Rome and put on display as the way to unification of Catholic and Orthodox. This issue alone will keep the Orthodox from union and communion as long as the latinization of Eastern Rite dominates the relationship.
How can Eastern Orthodoxy even consider union in the face of such blatant and offensive subjugation.

The Fact that ROME must dominate Eastern Catholicism and impose extreme control over the Eastern Rite - against what they promise (The Eastern Rite has a "right" to it's traditions - except in the USA and against married Priests) is disturbing.

I for one detest the extreme nature of Roman Hierarchical ecclisiology with regard to Celibacy of Priests and the imposition of their bad practices upon Eastern Catholicism.

In fact I would be in favor of returning to the "Rudder" of original canon law and allow Bishops the ability to be the husband of one wife.

Furthermore - I would gladly become clergy - and promise to BE PAID ZERO - NO BENEFITS - ALL FOR FREE - AND SERVE AS MANY LITURGIES AS A CHURCH NEEDED - AND WORK FULL TIME AND SUPPORT MY FAMILY AND PAY MY OWN BILLS INCLUDING HEALTH INSURANCE ETC. ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

It can be done - it's called hard work - and Paul the apostle did it.
Posted By: eastwardlean? Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/20/13 09:37 PM
[quote=haydukovich]
I would gladly become clergy - and promise to BE PAID ZERO - NO BENEFITS - ALL FOR FREE - AND SERVE AS MANY LITURGIES AS A CHURCH NEEDED - AND WORK FULL TIME AND SUPPORT MY FAMILY AND PAY MY OWN BILLS INCLUDING HEALTH INSURANCE ETC. ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

It can be done - it's called hard work - and Paul the apostle did it. [/quote]

I do not mean to question your sincerity, haydukovich. But I think the churches cannot only rely on priests who be basically donating their ministry. I do agree that the Church should consider multiple arrangements to provide priests for the the faithful, including some mostly self-supported part time priests.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Ask for leaders who think that the Church has a future, so that we stop getting bishops who behave like trustees of a firm going through bankruptcy liquidation.

At least we should try Chapter 11 first! smile
Posted By: StuartK Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/21/13 04:27 AM
A reorganization would not be a bad idea. We could start the consolidation by merging the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches back into a single entity. And we'd do better as a Metropolitan province of a Patriarchal Church.
Originally Posted by StuartK
A reorganization would not be a bad idea. We could start the consolidation by merging the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches back into a single entity. And we'd do better as a Metropolitan province of a Patriarchal Church.

Agree. Could be a headache, given all the "duplication" in Real Estate. Many times, where "we" are, so is the UGCC in terms of parish locations, esp. in the Northern & Eastern parts of the country.

Dn RJB

Posted By: eastwardlean? Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/21/13 08:40 PM
A wholescale merger of the two hierarchies in this country seems a much bigger undertaking than does re-establishing a married presbyterate in either church (or both).
Posted By: eastwardlean? Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/21/13 09:41 PM
I certainly agree with your punchline, Stuart. If they wish to restore a married priesthood in the United States, Eastern Catholic bishops should simply begin ordaining married men. I do not know to what extent a consensus on the issue exists among the bishops. I understand that the Eastern bishops in Canada ordain married men without much comment at all from Rome, and I would imagine that the same would or could happen in the U.S. if the bishops would simply act within their own power and authority. As I understand it, however, the metropolia of Pittsburgh has now unfortunately codified in its own particular law a required papal sign-off for any ordinations of married men.
Posted By: Pavloosh Re: Conference on EC Married Priests - 02/21/13 11:12 PM
Oh Happy Day!!!!!
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