www.byzcath.org
http://www.pravmir.com/russia-to-outlaw-homosexual-propaganda/

Last month, the Russian parliament approved by a vote of 388-1-1 a draft law outlawing the dissemination of �homosexual propaganda� to minors, prompting the Obama administration to pull out of �civil society� dialogue.

The legislation, backed by the combined efforts of the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church, also would ban public events promoting homosexual rights, charge fines of up to $16,000 for any public displays of �homosexual propaganda,� and block web content inappropriate for younger audiences. After two more readings, it goes to Russian President Vladimir Putin for his signature.

The bill, designed to protect minors from the influence of �sodomy, lesbianism, bisexuality and transgenderism,� is part of a growing national trend towards promoting traditional Russian values over Western liberalism.

�We either become a tolerant Western state where everything is allowed�and lose our Christianity and moral foundations�or we will be a Christian people who live in our God-protected land in purity and godliness,� said Rev. Sergiy Rybko, a priest in the Orthodox Church.

The civil society talks were among several initiated by President Barack Obama and then-Russian President Dmitry Medevdev to reset strained U.S.-Russian relations. But the day the Duma, Russia�s lower house of parliament, passed the new bill, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said, �The working group was not working.�

The new restrictions �were increasingly calling into question whether maintaining this government-to-government mechanism was either useful or appropriate,� she said, adding, �Nobody should be discriminated against for who they love.�

That response is unlikely to bother the Russians, according to David Aikman, a journalist and foreign policy consultant.

�The Russians will say, �Who are you to tell us what to do?��Aikman said. �The U.S. has no moral high ground to stand on, according to the Russians, because the Kremlin views the West as decadent, immoral, and corrupt.�

Aikman added that Russian identity is tied up with Orthodox Christianity, and that Russians are slow to change attitudes. In some ways, Russian culture is where American culture was in the 1960�s. �Homosexuality is not a valid lifestyle, and it is even viewed as a threat,� Aikman said.

According to opinion polls taken last year by the Levada Center, almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality �morally unacceptable and worth condemning.� And about half opposed gay rallies and same-sex marriage, while almost a third thought homosexuality was the result of �a sickness or a psychological trauma.�

Many Westerners find such attitudes shocking, but in some ways �Russia is one of the most pro-family countries out there,� said Stephen Baskerville, professor of international relations at Patrick Henry College. �St. Petersburg has been particularly active on family issues and parental rights. � There is nothing wrong with trying to uphold traditional values and protecting children.�

Despite their claims of upholding pro-family values, Russian politicians faced criticism from their own constituents, as well as the international community, for recent measures restricting adoption options for thousands of children languishing in orphanages. In late December, parliament passed, and Putin signed into law, a ban on Americans adopting Russian children. The ban was a retaliation for sanctions adopted by U.S. lawmakers against prominent Russians accused of human rights violations. Although the Russian Orthodox church supported the ban, Russian citizens held vigils in protest, accusing their leaders of using children as political pawns.

Aikman also warned some traditionalistic Russians may take the ban on �homosexual propaganda� too far. The day the bill passed, Russian police detained 20 people after Orthodox activists attacked homosexual rights campaigners holding a protest near the country�s parliament.

�Any policy that is extreme and violent is bad,� Aikman said. �No one should approve of witch hunts against gays.�
Quote
Aikman also warned some traditionalistic Russians may take the ban on �homosexual propaganda� too far. The day the bill passed, Russian police detained 20 people after Orthodox activists attacked homosexual rights campaigners holding a protest near the country�s parliament.

�Any policy that is extreme and violent is bad,� Aikman said. �No one should approve of witch hunts against gays.�

True, however, I believe that the West, especially the U.S. has taken the concept of fairness and non-discrimination of people and their morality choices to an extreme as well--the other extreme.

I suspect that witch hunts will soon start in the United States against those who do not agree, whether silently (as in individuals) or not (such as churches).
Originally Posted by Alice
I suspect that witch hunts will soon start in the United States against those who do not agree, whether silently (as in individuals) or not (such as churches).
I agree. Persecution by the United States government of Christians who support traditional morality is coming soon.
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
That response is unlikely to bother the Russians, according to David Aikman, a journalist and foreign policy consultant.

�The Russians will say, �Who are you to tell us what to do?��Aikman said. �The U.S. has no moral high ground to stand on, according to the Russians, because the Kremlin views the West as decadent, immoral, and corrupt.�
It seems that the "Russian" assessment of the overall immoral condition of American society is accurate.
But it is a more accurate assessment of Russian society.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Alice
I suspect that witch hunts will soon start in the United States against those who do not agree, whether silently (as in individuals) or not (such as churches).
I agree. Persecution by the United States government of Christians who support traditional morality is coming soon.

And we're going to be in the fight of our lives to defend and protect the moral stance in which we believe in... Let's hope we can pull out and win over the persecution. Hold on tight, we're gonna be in for a bumpy ride in the next four years or so.
Originally Posted by StuartK
But it is a more accurate assessment of Russian society.
I'm sure Russian society has many problems, how could it not after 70 years of atheism, but it is not endorsing the homosexual agenda like the United States.
No, but on the other hand, prostitution is rampant and abortion is ubiquitous. Russia is the pornography capital of the world; one of the most corrupt cultures on the face of the earth, where everyone and everything is for sale; shows little care or sympathy for widows, orphans and the handicapped; is rife with racism, hypernationalism and anti-semitism; is governed by an autocratic thug who uses violence and intimidation to get his way, while simultaneously enriching himself and his cronies. . . need I go on?

What know they of Russia, who do not Russia know?
The America of compassion, and fear and love of God is fast becoming a blurb in history. I still think that we have much good and compassion, and much more so than any other nation on earth, but that is slowly disappearing.

Love and fairness have become greatly confused and convoluted and those charities and groups that show love the most and carry out Christ's work the most here and abroad are becoming hated, feared, mocked and will probably be persecuted soon.
Well, look at the Boy Scouts, and United Way's attacking their basic moral beliefs and culture, by forcing them to recruit gay members and leaders beyond their values. That could be quite scary, and could trickle down to disaster. Let's hope we can stand up to this, and stop United Way from forcing this on our young men in the Boy Scouts, and corrupting our youth. We need to stand up, and make sure that our young Boy Scouts are taught the conservative, Christian, deep values that we cherish, and pass that on to the next generation. There's another example of this, that I hope we can fight and win against.
Originally Posted by StuartK
No, but on the other hand, prostitution is rampant and abortion is ubiquitous. Russia is the pornography capital of the world; one of the most corrupt cultures on the face of the earth, where everyone and everything is for sale; shows little care or sympathy for widows, orphans and the handicapped; is rife with racism, hypernationalism and anti-semitism; is governed by an autocratic thug who uses violence and intimidation to get his way, while simultaneously enriching himself and his cronies. . . need I go on?

What know they of Russia, who do not Russia know?
America - as a society - is the fourth largest producer, distributor, and consumer of pornography in the world, and Russia as a country does not even make the top ten worldwide.

As far as abortion, contraception, and prostitution are concerned, America is no better than Russia. America is not some kind of ideal place where true freedom and morality reign supreme.
Quote
America - as a society - is the fourth largest producer, distributor, and consumer of pornography in the world, and Russia as a country does not even make the top ten worldwide.

I was not aware that there were objective statistics collected on this subject. What metric is being used?

Quote
As far as abortion, contraception, and prostitution are concerned, America is no better than Russia. America is not some kind of ideal place where true freedom and morality reign supreme.

Talk to people who have been there for any length of time. They will tell you it isn't even close. First, off, there is no contraception in Russia, and abortion is the fallback position. Many women have had multiple abortions, resulting in sterility. As far as prostitution goes, on any given Sunday you will find more whores on the streets of Moscow or Petersburg than you will find people in its churches.

Why is it, I wonder, that some people have this need to erect this fairy tale of Holy Russia, which never existed and does not exist today, passing over or excusing all of the crime, vice and depravity one can find without breaking a sweat, while simultaneously condemning their own society--better on almost every count--for its lesser evils which are clearly deviations from the norm? One can only conclude that familiarity has bred contempt, and, conversely, that lack of familiarity foster the view that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
Apropos of which: Thirteen Abortions for Every Ten Live Births in Russia. [weeklystandard.com]

Quote
This week Russian president Vladimir Putin brought Boyz II Men to Moscow to "hopefully [give] Russian men some inspiration ahead of St. Valentine's Day," according to the Moscow Times. That is, Putin brought the music group to town to encourage love-making, and, he hopes, baby-making to offset Russia's demographic disaster.


But, according to statistics in a new book by Jonathan V. Last, it might have been a wiser move for Putin bring in a pro-life group instead. The book is titled What to Expect When No One�s Expecting.

Russia's demographic disaster, Last details, is being exacerbated by the fact that abortions are outpacing live births in Russia. "Abortion is rampant, with 13 abortions performed for every 10 live births," writes Last. "Consider that for a moment: Russians are so despondent about the future that they have 30 percent more abortions than births."

Last says that "This might be the most grisly statistic the world has ever seen. It suggests a society that no longer has the will to live."

"It seems to be a combination of factors. On the fertility side of the equation, patterns of family formation have changed dramatically since the end of the Soviet Union," writes Last. "Many couples choose long-term cohabitation as an alternative to marriage. In 1980, only 11 percent of births were to unwed mothers; by 2005 that number had shot up to 30 percent. Divorce has skyrocketed�Russia has the world�s highest divorce rate."

The problem is staggering population decline. "Russia has experienced population decline three times during the last century," writes Last. "Each period was marked by crisis. The first depopulation came from 1917 to 1923, as the Russian Empire was overthrown and the Soviet Union was forged. The second came during 1933 and 1934 as Joseph Stalin collectivized the country�s farmers, resulting in mil- lions of deaths. The third came during World War II, which cost the lives of 25 million Russians. (Remember: No nation has experienced long-term prosperity in the face of contracting population.)"
Originally Posted by StuartK
[quote]there is no contraception in Russia
Yes there is, it was in the Soviet era that it was not available. I posted statistics in a recent thread showing that abortion has been declining every year due to contraception having become widely available. Other than that, I agree with your point that every country on earth has its own set of problems and none is "holier" than the rest.
And yet, it would seem that contraception has not reduced the number of abortions so much as it has the number of conceptions, for the ratio of abortions to live births is upside down (By way of comparison, there were approximately 250 abortions for every live birth in the United States). And with a TFR of just 1.51, despite the blandishments and incentives offered by Putin, there are several hundred thousand fewer Russians every year. At what point does population contraction pass the point of no return for a nation?
Well, people are reluctant to have children - either more than one, or more than two, or at all. The reasons have more to do with life in the country today (a large number of issues) and what future these potential babies seem to be facing. Russia is a country of hard-core realists (aside from magical thinkers).
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Well, people are reluctant to have children - either more than one, or more than two, or at all. The reasons have more to do with life in the country today (a large number of issues) and what future these potential babies seem to be facing. Russia is a country of hard-core realists (aside from magical thinkers).

I agree with Mariya.

This has been and is presently going on in Greece as well. I also believe that most Americans do not have large families (more than 1 or 2 children) either--it is very difficult for parents who both have to work, do not have enough money for a nanny, do not have a parent close by, and who need to pay for life's basics such as food, utilites, rent or mortgage, health care, automobile, insurances, etc., to have more than two children.

Having more than two children (in ANY country) often indicates economic ease of the parents.

Thus, Russians are not the only realists.

I don't think that any one thinks that the 'grasser is greener' on the other side.

I do think that many Christians agree with the title of this thread and the backbone of going against the current American mores.
I support full separation of Church and State.

One becomes or remains a member of a church or any faith-based establishment of one's own free will and choice.

One becomes a citizen of a state, however, by virtue of being born (or naturalized) in it. The government's laws are obligatory for all - as opposed to various faith organizations.

The government has a duty of fair and equal treatment of all its citizens, including its homosexual citizens, its unwed mother citizens, and all kinds of "sinners."
For that to happen, there must first be rule of law. Russia is backing away rapidly even from the pretense of "rule of law", for law cannot be decided by the whim of or convenience for a single man.
Dear Mariya,

Fairness is different than condoning deviant sexual behaviors. No one should discriminate or hurt someone who is 'different' in their sexuality for whatever reason, however, the rest of society does not need to have their life style forced upon them as being 'normal'. Sorry...

When this current American agenda is fulfilled, which it is close to being, what will be next? I suppose that it will be polygamy, and then other deviances. Will religious institutions be forced to accept all this? Will individuals, as in the day of paganism? 'Accept the false idols or die'? The saints warn us of the false idols of today, and many of them are camouflaged into sexual issues which obsess today's culture.

It is definitely a difference in generational thinking here and a brainwashing of the past decades of what is 'fair' and 'righteous', but as Orthodox Christians we have the Church and the saints who tell us differently.

God did not condone the 'fairness' of Sodom and Gomorrah. Ofcourse today, we are confused and may think 'how enlightened' they were in their acceptance and enjoyment of all types of sexuality!!

Best regards,
Alice
Dear Alice,

everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Do you mean 250 live births for every abortion?

Originally Posted by StuartK
And yet, it would seem that contraception has not reduced the number of abortions so much as it has the number of conceptions, for the ratio of abortions to live births is upside down (By way of comparison, there were approximately 250 abortions for every live birth in the United States). And with a TFR of just 1.51, despite the blandishments and incentives offered by Putin, there are several hundred thousand fewer Russians every year. At what point does population contraction pass the point of no return for a nation?
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
America - as a society - is the fourth largest producer, distributor, and consumer of pornography in the world, and Russia as a country does not even make the top ten worldwide.

I was not aware that there were objective statistics collected on this subject. What metric is being used?
How much money is spent on production and distribution, and the amount spent purchasing / viewing porn. America is not a puritanical country when it comes to porn.

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
As far as abortion, contraception, and prostitution are concerned, America is no better than Russia. America is not some kind of ideal place where true freedom and morality reign supreme.

Talk to people who have been there for any length of time. They will tell you it isn't even close. First, off, there is no contraception in Russia, and abortion is the fallback position. Many women have had multiple abortions, resulting in sterility. As far as prostitution goes, on any given Sunday you will find more whores on the streets of Moscow or Petersburg than you will find people in its churches.
Yeah, and thank God only 60 million abortions have occurred in the United States since the 70s.

Originally Posted by StuartK
Why is it, I wonder, that some people have this need to erect this fairy tale of Holy Russia, which never existed and does not exist today, passing over or excusing all of the crime, vice and depravity one can find without breaking a sweat, while simultaneously condemning their own society--better on almost every count--for its lesser evils which are clearly deviations from the norm? One can only conclude that familiarity has bred contempt, and, conversely, that lack of familiarity foster the view that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
I do not believe in some kind of "fairy tale" of Holy Russia, but - I will say this - at least attempts to resist the evil of homosexual propaganda is being made by the Russian Orthodox Church, and with some (albeit) limited success. America as a society has openly embraced homosexuality and other forms of sexual perversion, even referring to such things as "rights."
Well, at least in the United States, there are such things as rights. In Russia, they are sorely lacking, as you would discover if you spent time there. I do not think you would prefer there to here, but then, there is no accounting for taste. I do find, though, that there is an inexplicable blind spot among some Orthodox Christians when it comes to traditionally Orthodox states and their behavior both internally and externally. Apparently, put a three bar cross over your capital, and you can get away with almost anything.
Originally Posted by StuartK
on any given Sunday you will find more whores on the streets of Moscow or Petersburg than you will find people in its churches.
I think it would be lovely if we refrained from using such terms as above when referring to women, even if we disapprove of their fashion of making a living...
Also, Stuart, getting back to your earlier question,

Something else popped up in my memory today: I remember, my mother, when she was pregnant with my younger brother in 1988 and delivered at our local Moscow delivery hospital - they were so rude to her there, out right cursing at her, that she lost her breast milk for a while. Women everywhere complain of rudeness, cursing, horrible conditions, even today at delivery hospitals. And no one wants to go through that. People do not have the money to pay bribes so their child gets a spot at a day care center. Adequate housing for a family is very often an issue. People are concerned with what life will have in store for their children in today's Russia. There are plenty of stories from women I see who may even want a first or second child, but they do not go for it because of all the problems. And then there are many women who are simply single, who do not get pregnant "on accident" or "just for myself" but are responsible with their lives.

Instead of offering incentives, Mr. Putin may want to consider allowing Russia to be a democratic country, with presidents that are actually elected in fair and honest elections, for example. Then, people may begin to see Russia as a comfortable and attractive place to be.
I still believe Americans to be the kindest people on earth; genuinely kind...for that I am proud.

For the immorality we embrace, celebrate and export, I am not.
Originally Posted by Alice
I still believe Americans to be the kindest people on earth; genuinely kind...for that I am proud.

For the immorality we embrace, celebrate and export, I am not.

Precisely... I'm not sure how people could be so ignorant just to vote for someone based on popularity, this country can't just think of politicians as if it were American Idol or something. For that, I think we failed to make everyone realize who they are really voting in Washington.
Quote
think it would be lovely if we refrained from using such terms as above when referring to women, even if we disapprove of their fashion of making a living...

I will dutifully amend my Bible to reflect this sensitivity.
Quote
For the immorality we embrace, celebrate and export, I am not.

Do not make the error of elevating outliers to the norm. Hollywood and television are not America.
Originally Posted by StuartK
I will dutifully amend my Bible to reflect this sensitivity.
Thank you!
Quote
Instead of offering incentives, Mr. Putin may want to consider allowing Russia to be a democratic country, with presidents that are actually elected in fair and honest elections, for example. Then, people may begin to see Russia as a comfortable and attractive place to be.

Oh, heavens! Would that not be caving in to the values of the corrupt and decadent West, instead of allowing Russia to be true to its own culture and history? I mean, Vladimir Putin is a gift from God, so Putinism must have some sort of divine sanction. [Sarcasm Alert!]
Originally Posted by StuartK
I mean, Vladimir Putin is a gift from God
Did the Lord confirm that?
No, just Patriarch Kyril, and Putin's minions both in Russia and the West.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
For the immorality we embrace, celebrate and export, I am not.

Do not make the error of elevating outliers to the norm. Hollywood and television are not America.
Oh? Why not? They and their darling are running the country now.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Well, at least in the United States, there are such things as rights.
Go to a court, especially a divorce court or an eminent domain hearing post Kelo v. City of New London or a EPA evaluation, and report to us on the existence of these "rights."

You do know, btw, that now the US has more Czars than Russia ever had, no?

The Boy Scouts had a right to their policy on homosexuality. Now that the Demogogue-in-Chief has set his eyes on it, let's see how long they keep it.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Instead of offering incentives, Mr. Putin may want to consider allowing Russia to be a democratic country, with presidents that are actually elected in fair and honest elections, for example. Then, people may begin to see Russia as a comfortable and attractive place to be.

Oh, heavens! Would that not be caving in to the values of the corrupt and decadent West, instead of allowing Russia to be true to its own culture and history? I mean, Vladimir Putin is a gift from God, so Putinism must have some sort of divine sanction. [Sarcasm Alert!]
Gerard Depardieu seems to have found Russia more attractive than Paris as of late.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/w...sia-with-sights-on-citizenship.html?_r=0
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
�Homosexuality is not a valid lifestyle, and it is even viewed as a threat,� Aikman said.

According to opinion polls taken last year by the Levada Center, almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality �morally unacceptable and worth condemning.� And about half opposed gay rallies and same-sex marriage, while almost a third thought homosexuality was the result of �a sickness or a psychological trauma.�
IOW the Russians see the "gay lifestyle" for what it is.
Originally Posted by StuartK
No, but on the other hand, prostitution is rampant and abortion is ubiquitous. Russia is the pornography capital of the world; one of the most corrupt cultures on the face of the earth, where everyone and everything is for sale; shows little care or sympathy for widows, orphans and the handicapped; is rife with racism, hypernationalism and anti-semitism; is governed by an autocratic thug who uses violence and intimidation to get his way, while simultaneously enriching himself and his cronies. . . need I go on?

What know they of Russia, who do not Russia know?
Russia just spent almost a century being remade by the likes of Stalin to conform to Marxist ideals.

What's the US's excuse for its moral slide in the "home of the free" and the land of super abundance?
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
�Homosexuality is not a valid lifestyle, and it is even viewed as a threat,� Aikman said.

According to opinion polls taken last year by the Levada Center, almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality �morally unacceptable and worth condemning.� And about half opposed gay rallies and same-sex marriage, while almost a third thought homosexuality was the result of �a sickness or a psychological trauma.�
IOW the Russians see the "gay lifestyle" for what it is.
Well said.
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by StuartK
No, but on the other hand, prostitution is rampant and abortion is ubiquitous. Russia is the pornography capital of the world; one of the most corrupt cultures on the face of the earth, where everyone and everything is for sale; shows little care or sympathy for widows, orphans and the handicapped; is rife with racism, hypernationalism and anti-semitism; is governed by an autocratic thug who uses violence and intimidation to get his way, while simultaneously enriching himself and his cronies. . . need I go on?

What know they of Russia, who do not Russia know?
Russia just spent almost a century being remade by the likes of Stalin to conform to Marxist ideals.

What's the US's excuse for its moral slide in the "home of the free" and the land of super abundance?
Yes, Russian society was de-Christianized through the physical torture and murder of Christian believers by the Bolsheviks; while American society has been de-Christianized voluntarily, without physical force, but watch out, because once the process of de-Christianization is complete we will see both psychological and physical persecution of Christians in the United States.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Yes, Russian society was de-Christianized through the physical torture and murder of Christian believers by the Bolsheviks; while American society has been de-Christianized voluntarily, without physical force, but watch out, because once the process of de-Christianization is complete we will see both psychological and physical persecution of Christians in the United States.

Of course the Bolsheviks voluntarily de-Christianized themselves alongs with plenty of Russians otherwise the White Army would have won.

But hey, if you think Russia is such a bastion of Christian virtue please move there and escape the coming tribulation.
Then you'll have many Americans that want to remain Christian like us trying to escape to other countries, in hopes that we'll be heard, but who knows how successful that'll even work out? With that mentality, I'm sure Canada's border security will be just stressed beyond repair, as it were.
Quote
Yes, Russian society was de-Christianized through the physical torture and murder of Christian believers by the Bolsheviks

And yet, it was remarkably easy to get the majority of Orthodox Russians to go along. According to Metropolitan Hilarion, this was due entirely to the alienation of the Church from the people, and the superficiality of the catechesis to which most Russians were exposed.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Yes, Russian society was de-Christianized through the physical torture and murder of Christian believers by the Bolsheviks; while American society has been de-Christianized voluntarily, without physical force, but watch out, because once the process of de-Christianization is complete we will see both psychological and physical persecution of Christians in the United States.

Of course the Bolsheviks voluntarily de-Christianized themselves alongs with plenty of Russians otherwise the White Army would have won.

But hey, if you think Russia is such a bastion of Christian virtue please move there and escape the coming tribulation.
Some, like Trotsky, came already de-Christianized.

Despite that a lot of rot was around under the Czar, the Bolsheviks never made good their claim to represent the majority (bol'shinstvo) of the Socialists, let alone society at large. Even after nearly two decades of ruthless rule and imposition of atheism: the Census of 1937 found that 56.7% of those over 16 stated they were religious. That, despite the undercount of the gulags by half, and the brunt of the famines, Holodomor etc. hitting the more religious classes. And of course, the fear of reprisal (another million refused to answer the question). Stalin sent the census takers to Siberia, and a religion question (which Stalin had put on the census questionnaire himself, and the census was taken on Christmas Eve) was never taken again.

The fact that the White Army had fought itself to exhaustion for three years, such that the Czarist regime collapsed and the provisional government had no power, had nothing to do with their defeat by a Red Army swelled by fresh recruits...Nah.

Stalin had to ease up on the Church 25 years after the Revolution, in order to get enough support from the population at large to defeat Hitler.

The Russian Orthodox can take care of themselves. America, not so much.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Yes, Russian society was de-Christianized through the physical torture and murder of Christian believers by the Bolsheviks

And yet, it was remarkably easy to get the majority of Orthodox Russians to go along. According to Metropolitan Hilarion, this was due entirely to the alienation of the Church from the people, and the superficiality of the catechesis to which most Russians were exposed.
and yet decades later Stalin had to stoop to easing up on the Church in order to get the support of a majority of Russians to fight off the Nazis.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Yes, Russian society was de-Christianized through the physical torture and murder of Christian believers by the Bolsheviks

And yet, it was remarkably easy to get the majority of Orthodox Russians to go along. According to Metropolitan Hilarion, this was due entirely to the alienation of the Church from the people, and the superficiality of the catechesis to which most Russians were exposed.
That is pretty much the West today, especially the superficial catechesis. Persecution here we come.
Originally Posted by StuartK
is rife with racism, hypernationalism and anti-semitism
This I have to agree with, and it's one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to associating with Russians. A person may be the nicest sweetest person, but... if he failed his naturalization interview it was because the officer was black. If anyone anywhere screwed up, they've gotta be black. And overall, blacks are just gross, no reason in particular. Anti-Semitism, to various extents, is very common. I hear a lot of it all, and it's annoying and sad because you start liking a person but after such comments you cannot continue respecting him or her. You to talk to them, but it's not the same.

And I must add, thankfully, that there ARE also enough normal and intelligent people from Russia who would not stain themselves by such views.
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Red Army swelled by fresh recruits.
The Civil War was complex and involved much horror, along with the red terror and hunger that came along. This text gives more detail: http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/museum/his1g.htm

My great grandfather, may his memory be eternal, died in the Civil War, and we are not sure now of the details (his wife passed away) but we believe he died on the Red side. They were however believing Orthodox Christians, and it is thanks to my great grandma's insistence that I became Orthodox Christian myself. It wasn't quite like there was a Red Army enlistment kiosk and a White Army enlistment kiosk across the street. May the Lord remember all the victims in His kingdom.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Well, at least in the United States, there are such things as rights. In Russia, they are sorely lacking, as you would discover if you spent time there. I do not think you would prefer there to here, but then, there is no accounting for taste. I do find, though, that there is an inexplicable blind spot among some Orthodox Christians when it comes to traditionally Orthodox states and their behavior both internally and externally. Apparently, put a three bar cross over your capital, and you can get away with almost anything.

Agreed, but just what 'rights' do those in the United States (whether they be Jew,Christian or Muslim) who do NOT want homosexuality, homosexual 'marriage' and homosexual parenting with all the unnatural methods of procreation which are associated with such 'parentage', propagandized to their children as being an equally accepted and natural lifestyle have? This propaganda occurs in school, on television, in movies, in the boy scouts, etc.

The gay 'agenda' has won. Sexual deviancy (or to be more PC, 'difference') of all sorts are celebrated in pride parades. To see two men or women kissing on network television has now become commonplace. The list goes on...

So, getting back on topic, again I say good for the backbone of Russia to go counter (American) culture on this matter.

Since sexual encounters of various types are no longer illegal in the U.S. or Russia, then why not just keep it private? Why force others to accept it? It is somewhat akin to the man or woman who is a chronic adulterer, or a polygamist, forcing a whole civilization to accept his or her weakness, and to celebrate it as being normal. Not to mention parading it around as an alternate life style which MUST be accepted and approved by all of society or chance being called 'hateful' and 'bigoted'.

I am sure that polygamy will be the next liberal cause masquerading as 'rights' and 'fairness' to all. Just wait and see. Let's hope it isn't something worse. Where will the line be drawn?
P.S...Just to be clear: Not that I think that homosexuals should be discriminated against in any way, nor do I personally have any problem with them as individuals (we are all entitled to private moral choices), but why not keep it low key instead of an 'in your face' political and social agenda?

I think that is the Western trend that Russia is making a stand about.
"Gay pride" is a reaction against the centuries-old tradition of denigration and all types of abuse of people who, despite all the abounding theories and proposed methods, usually do not feel that they have a choice in the matter. The percentage of homosexuals is quite low and we do not need to worry, Mother Nature has always ensured that the majority remains heterosexual and the human race will not die out.

However, the traditional degradation and slurs against homosexuals breeds anger and resistance and gay pride, just as it has in women and minorities in the past. My alma mater, Rutgers University, recently buried a student who killed himself because he was cruelly harassed for being gay. Did anyone ask the harasser to place cameras in the dorm room to then post videos on the internet? The student was perfectly happy to keep his private life private. Every action produces a reaction. Leave the gays alone and you will likely stop hearing from them. It is also worth remembering that homosexuality abounds mostly in specific conditions - jails, in all countries, for example. And the prospect of becoming someone's bitch invokes nothing but horror, whether in men or in women, when they are faced with a jail term. And talking about Church... is it not priests that have been abusing helpless boys worldwide? and the Church will then thunder about homosexuality?

Let us watch ourselves. Other people will answer to God for themselves, we will for ourselves. They are not "forcing" anything on anybody. I would like to watch someone try to turn my brother or me into a homosexual and I'll see how far they get. He and I do not however get foamy at the mouth when we hear of a homosexual. We shrug and say, "For the life of me, I don't get it." Homosexuals simply want to be left alone. Once that is achieved, the reaction will stop as no action will be causing it.

Gays in Russia get beaten and their jaws broken, just as do non-whites, Jews, just as a nine-year old girl whose only fault was her father was African, was severely beaten and hospitalized, just as do Russian citizens from non-Slavic parts of the country - hey who cares, we're going to beat them, not check their passport and birth certificate. Yeah, we are cleaning the garbage out of our country for the glory of God! Russia for Russians!! Russia for Orthodox Christians!!! Russia is the LAST BASTION OF FAITH IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry for the wordy post)
Originally Posted by Alice
I am sure that polygamy will be the next liberal cause masquerading as 'rights' and 'fairness' to all. Just wait and see. Let's hope it isn't something worse. Where will the line be drawn?

I guess you haven't seen the reality show Sister Wives yet? It is already happening except polygamists are very much conservatives. The only groups pushing it, at least in the US, are fundamentalist Mormons and small movements among Evangelicals.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Alice
I am sure that polygamy will be the next liberal cause masquerading as 'rights' and 'fairness' to all. Just wait and see. Let's hope it isn't something worse. Where will the line be drawn?

I guess you haven't seen the reality show Sister Wives yet? It is already happening except polygamists are very much conservatives. The only groups pushing it, at least in the US, are fundamentalist Mormons and small movements among Evangelicals.
Don't forget the Muslims.
Yes, I agree, it's almost like Religious Education is dying in the Western World, and the importance of being attentive to the Voice of the Divine Shepherd, and the Lord's teaching to all. We do need to try to drive home the importance and significance one can receive to obey the Commandments, teachings, and Gospel messages over that of secular powers, and liberal thinking.

I'm glad that President Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Kyrill are actually doing what they can to bring order and restore morality to the Russian motherland. Now we just need others to follow suit, and to make sure that we have more Christian messages to overcome the liberal secularism of the West today. Not going to be easy, brethren...

We are going to need to make sure we are more active with the upcoming 40 Days to Life than we ever were during the Fortright for Freedom movement. At least this 40 Days to Life is during the Great Fast, when we should be fasting and praying, anyway. So it shouldn't be too hard to pray for traditional marriage, praying for the unborn to be brought into the world and live their natural lives, and for those to bring light into the darkness of the modern world. May what Russia has outlawed here serve as an example set to be something of inspiration during these times, and how this will preserve the spirituality and morality that we hold dear.
Dear Mariya,

I think that maybe we are talking past each other?

I certainly understand what you are saying, and I certainly see your point.

I agree that gays should NOT be discriminated and harassed. However, think of the ramifications of this new world standard that the U.S. has set:

My children are past school age now, but what about when you have children and they come home from school saying "so and so has two daddies or two mommies", or "how does the baby in so and so's daddy grow?", etc...and how confused they will be if we go against what is POLITICALLY CORRECT to say. Then THEY will be discriminated against in school. I have been a mother at the beginning of this trend. I know what I have seen and what will be.

Teenagers are confused (scientifically proven) at the time of adolescence. They are confused about sexuality. Given the time to deal with it on their own, most will choose the biblical path of their gender. However, when their schools, when their entertainment, when their schools (gay clubs, gay studies, etc.) promote homosexual sexuality, many will be confused into thinking otherwise. Some would have chosen that path anyway and that is fine. However, many more will choose a path foreign to what they may have chosen if they were adolescents, let's say, in the 1950's to 1970's.

Putting that horrific and very sad incident aside which occurred in your university, I know for a fact that many of today's high school students think it is a 'cool' alternative to identify themselves as 'gay'.

That is just as bad as being ostracized for being gay. It is an extreme.

Just yesterday, I saw two young men kissing on a television show aimed at the younger generation.

I think that extremes of all sorts are dangerous. I think that political correctness is dangerous. I think that when you, God willing, become a mother, you might think differently about what is being presented to your child, and then, IF you disagree or speak up about it, you will find yourself on the other end of harassment and ostracization, as will your child, because of your Christian Orthodox beliefs.

With respect and love in Christ,
Alice
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Let us watch ourselves. Other people will answer to God for themselves, we will for ourselves. They are not "forcing" anything on anybody. I would like to watch someone try to turn my brother or me into a homosexual and I'll see how far they get. He and I do not however get foamy at the mouth when we hear of a homosexual. We shrug and say, "For the life of me, I don't get it." Homosexuals simply want to be left alone. Once that is achieved, the reaction will stop as no action will be causing it.

Gays in Russia get beaten and their jaws broken, just as do non-whites, Jews, just as a nine-year old girl whose only fault was her father was African, was severely beaten and hospitalized, just as do Russian citizens from non-Slavic parts of the country - hey who cares, we're going to beat them, not check their passport and birth certificate. Yeah, we are cleaning the garbage out of our country for the glory of God! Russia for Russians!! Russia for Orthodox Christians!!! Russia is the LAST BASTION OF FAITH IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry for the wordy post)

Not wordy at all, and thank you for your forthright and honest post bravely stated. I stand with you.
Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Let us watch ourselves. Other people will answer to God for themselves, we will for ourselves. They are not "forcing" anything on anybody. I would like to watch someone try to turn my brother or me into a homosexual and I'll see how far they get. He and I do not however get foamy at the mouth when we hear of a homosexual. We shrug and say, "For the life of me, I don't get it." Homosexuals simply want to be left alone. Once that is achieved, the reaction will stop as no action will be causing it.

Gays in Russia get beaten and their jaws broken, just as do non-whites, Jews, just as a nine-year old girl whose only fault was her father was African, was severely beaten and hospitalized, just as do Russian citizens from non-Slavic parts of the country - hey who cares, we're going to beat them, not check their passport and birth certificate. Yeah, we are cleaning the garbage out of our country for the glory of God! Russia for Russians!! Russia for Orthodox Christians!!! Russia is the LAST BASTION OF FAITH IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry for the wordy post)

Not wordy at all, and thank you for your forthright and honest post bravely stated. I stand with you.

What deserted island did ya'll say you're standing on?

I do not have anything to add to Alice's response, except this: The day that MA redefined marriage and starting "marrying" same sex couples, the first couple, lesbians who had been together for a decade or so, were asked if they could have been satisfied with civil unions. "No," they responded "we must have marriage because that says that society accepts us as a couple." (btw, within a year they were "divorcing," complete with orders of protection). So much for "simply wanting to be left alone."
Alice, do not get me wrong, I understand your point of view also and I appreciate your taking the time to answer with your usual kindness and class rather than dismiss my opinions.

Let's read the Russian law closely. Its name sounds very good. It forbids "actions geared at propaganda of homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, transgenderness and pedophilia." The second article talks specifically about pedophilia. As a survivor of a pedophile's attack in childhood (he went to jail for 8 years and this attack has to do with why it's not likely that I will become a mother myself) I first of all wonder what gays have to do with pedophiles. Same-sex love is not a crime, attacking and defiling a child is. But okay, they just lumped everything together, fine. So how will the law be implemented in practice? Here's the problem. Legal professionals say that it is too vague to have any practical value, that it has not been formulated well enough - the penalties have, but not the elements of the crime, and the result is that it will mean whatever whoever wants it to mean.

Would you like to know more about true concern about minors in Russia? Consider the following.

Children can no longer be adopted by Americans, and I listened to an interview of a Russian orphanage system official, on the Russian radio, who explained what this will mean in his particular district, he gave numbers of how many orphans come in, what percentage goes here, goes there, and he explained how many more children thanks to the new law will now not have a chance to have a family based on past statistics of how many were adopted by Americans. He noted, in particular, that Americans were glad to adopt an ill or disabled baby, while Russians usually do not choose them or just can't afford the care.

And specifically about minors and morality. Wanna know something else? Something that keeps me from using the Russian internet when I can help it. The most obscene pornographic popup ads appear on Russian websites geared specifically at teenagers and young people! I cannot imagine what would be going through my mind if I were a minor and exposed to that filth. If I did have my hypothetical child, I do not know what kind of blockers I would need to install and if they even exist against this problem, so he would not click on a music-sharing site and all of a sudden be looking at two adults having intercourse or worse. I am not joking at all. If they want to regulate morality, why not start there? But it will probably tick off some people. For the record - this does not occur on the American internet. I use both on a regular basis, and I testify. You get pornographic popups in the American internet only if you specifically seek such content and do not have filters on.

I keep thinking about the orphan law. It shook the world. It shocked everyone with a heart. And I think back to the history of WWII, and the tremendous unnecessary sacrifices made by Stalin. He murdered a lot of people, but I'm talking about war casualties alone. In 2009, I stood at the Soviet Military Cemetery in Warsaw, Poland, where 21 thousand people are buried. Not a single candle was burning at the monument's foot except for mine. Yes, Stalin did that, both those deaths, and that anger. People meant nothing, politics meant everything.

Is the current government trying to follow in the footsteps? Again we are telling the world: we have an agenda, we want to make a statement to you world. We will do whatever we want with all the people we want, for our purposes. The people do not matter, they have no value. They are just Russian people.
Alice, see, the reason I'm posting here is not to engage in polemics on homosexuality, certainly not to change anyone's mind. I do not have any more affinity for it than the next heterosexual person, but it's an entirely foreign issue to me therefore does not arouse any strong emotions. If I encounter someone who is gay I treat them like the person before and the person after. So, I really don't have anything to say.

My point is to appeal to those who sing praises to Putin and the Russian regime. As you have noticed, 95% of what I write here is about how I feel about Russia, what I know about Russia, and memories of my life there. I have lived in Russia for almost half of my life, I come from a politically aware and active Moscow family, and have access to the Russian radio and print materials. I talk to people. I have also lived in the United States for almost 20 years, and I compare the two. I bring an insider's perspective about Russia, there is a lot I can say, and I hope it can be useful to whoever is interested.
Quote
And specifically about minors and morality. Wanna know something else? Something that keeps me from using the Russian internet when I can help it. The most obscene pornographic popup ads appear on Russian websites geared specifically at teenagers and young people! I cannot imagine what would be going through my mind if I were a minor and exposed to that filth. If I did have my hypothetical child, I do not know what kind of blockers I would need to install and if they even exist against this problem, so he would not click on a music-sharing site and all of a sudden be looking at two adults having intercourse or worse. I am not joking at all. If they want to regulate morality, why not start there? But it will probably tick off some people. For the record - this does not occur on the American internet. I use both on a regular basis, and I testify. You get pornographic popups in the American internet only if you specifically seek such content and do not have filters on.

Good points. I am all for censorship of the internet like in China.

I respect your opinions, dear Mariya, because they are informed opinions about something which you know intimately, just like I would like my opinions of Greece and/or the United States respected.

As I said, I think that we Americans are the kindest and most genuinely compassionate people on earth. I would like that to continue, and for this country to see the downward path it is taking in so many ways.

I also have anger towards politians here,just like you do with Russia, but I honestly do not think that my (or any one else's) opinions matter. The fate of this country has been decided from above and more and more people are becoming atheist. We are seeing all the evils that bear fruit from that.

We used to be the most religious and God believing country, but, sadly, not anymore.

May God have mercy on this world.

You love the United States, Alice. So do I. And we disagree on so many issues. :-) May God bless the United States, and all her people that are so different, and all love her so much.
Originally Posted by Alice
I am sure that polygamy will be the next liberal cause masquerading as 'rights' and 'fairness' to all. Just wait and see. Let's hope it isn't something worse. Where will the line be drawn?

Where will that line be drawn?

That line has already been drawn and crossed.

See this:

http://news.yahoo.com/florida-judge-approves-birth-certificate-listing-three-parents-233555185.html

And this:

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...brazil-sparks-controversy/1#.URq1f47ZrH0

Yes, it's getting that crazy. And the scary thing is that there are a lot of people who simply see nothing wrong at all with any of this.
Quote
The fate of this country has been decided from above and more and more people are becoming atheist.


Alice,

I'm sure it's not MUCH of a consolation, but the percentage of people who are decidedly atheist or agnostic in this country is something around 5% and hasn't really grown much in decades. It's just that more and more people do not identify themselves with any religion - around 15%-18% of the population, in fact. However, the majority these (about 80%) are theists who believe in God, or Jesus Christ, or a higher power.

So, for better or for worse, atheism and/or agnosticism isn't as much of a problem as people who may believe in God or a higher power but don't really care to identify with any specific religion or value system.

Alexis
Originally Posted by danman916
Originally Posted by Alice
I am sure that polygamy will be the next liberal cause masquerading as 'rights' and 'fairness' to all. Just wait and see. Let's hope it isn't something worse. Where will the line be drawn?

Where will that line be drawn?

That line has already been drawn and crossed.

See this:

http://news.yahoo.com/florida-judge-approves-birth-certificate-listing-three-parents-233555185.html

And this:

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...brazil-sparks-controversy/1#.URq1f47ZrH0

Yes, it's getting that crazy. And the scary thing is that there are a lot of people who simply see nothing wrong at all with any of this.
yes, now in US precedents, a child can have a minimum of 8 "parents."
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by danman916
Originally Posted by Alice
I am sure that polygamy will be the next liberal cause masquerading as 'rights' and 'fairness' to all. Just wait and see. Let's hope it isn't something worse. Where will the line be drawn?

Where will that line be drawn?

That line has already been drawn and crossed.

See this:

http://news.yahoo.com/florida-judge-approves-birth-certificate-listing-three-parents-233555185.html

And this:

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...brazil-sparks-controversy/1#.URq1f47ZrH0

Yes, it's getting that crazy. And the scary thing is that there are a lot of people who simply see nothing wrong at all with any of this.
yes, now in US precedents, a child can have a minimum of 8 "parents."

As if it wasn't enough when the concept of 'sperm donors' were first introduced to us; as if that didn't threaten the traditional parenting norm enough, and as if that didn't further confuse and destroy the sanctity of creating a new life as God intended....now we have so many gay couples donating and inseminating back and forth that it makes your head spin!

One doesn't know if one should laugh or cry!! crazy

Lord have mercy!
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
yes, now in US precedents, a child can have a minimum of 8 "parents."

8 parents?
I'm not sure what you mean.
Can you elaborate?
Originally Posted by danman916
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
yes, now in US precedents, a child can have a minimum of 8 "parents."

8 parents?
I'm not sure what you mean.
Can you elaborate?
actually, it's ten.

man donates sperm to an egg donated by a woman who carries the child for a lesbian/gay couple. Case law exists for each to get parental rights, making 5. If the three donors have spouses, the spouses can get rights as well, making 8. If the original lesbian/gay couple break up and find significant others, they can join in as well and make it 10.

Throw in muliple divorces and "blended families" (I particularly hate that euphemism), and potential number under the law can be increased many-fold.
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