www.byzcath.org
Posted By: coptic_one Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/28/05 12:55 AM
Has anyone got any info about this?? I visited the monastery yesterday on my way home from St. Antony Coptic Monastery and the monks didnt say anything about it. www.hrmonline.org [hrmonline.org]
I would certainly encourage interested people to visit our web page and read the statement there. There is really nothing to add, except to ask, again, for your prayers.

unworthy monk Maximos
Holy Resurrection Monastery
www.hrmonline.org [hrmonline.org]
Thanks Fr Maximos.

I did check out the website for your monastery and was encourage when I read that this change will hopefully allow you to respond to "planting" other monastic foundations across the US. May it please God to bring this about....especially out here in the East Coast.

God bless you and your community.

John, a sinner
Finally, after a long wait Holy Resurrection Monastery can move forward! It is sad that our own Eparch didn't much care for such a wonderful monastery. I had hoped that the Eparch(y) of Van Nuys would realise what a treasure they had in Holy Resurrection Monastery. May Bishop John (Botean) prove to be a good match for HRM!

May they continue to prosper!

Steve
What wonderful news. Now hopefully the speculation will cease with this transfer within the Catholic Church which has the blessing of the whole church to continue witness to monastercism as they do. The monastery is still where it has always been and everyone is welcome to visit or be in contact as before. People come from far and near to Newberry springs, some even cross the planet.
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/28/05 05:28 PM
"Finally, the Ruthenian Catholics already have a well-established monastic presence in the United States ..."

This was from the statement mentioned above. What sort of "monastic presence" does the Ruthenian Catholic Church now have?

Is it Eastern?

Is it a hybrid?

I can't think of any good role models of Eastern Monasticism in this particular Church?

What sort? Please tell.

God bless the monks of Holy Resurrection Monastery. I know they will receive good care with the Romanians, who are willing to move foreward with new wineskins.

Joe
Posted By: Chtec Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/28/05 07:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by J Thur:
...who are willing to move foreward with new wineskins.
Hopefully they get the Romanian wine to go with the Romanian wineskins. Mmm, mmm, Romanian wine is quite tasty. biggrin

La multi ani!

Dave
Posted By: Reznut Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/28/05 08:46 PM
As many of you know, I am great supporter of Holy Resurrection Monastery. I am so THRILLED that this has finally gone through! This is indeed a great blessing to Holy Resurrection Monastery, Holy Theophany Women's Community, and all monastic hopefuls (such as myself).

I pray that all the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will be touched by the Holy Spirit to see how much our world needs many, many more monastics to lift us up out of the ocean of depravity our society is drowning in. The prayers of monastics are needed now more than ever before!

Though it may be a loss for the Ruthenian Church (at least in the eyes of some of us), sometimes loss is needed in order for us to understand the importance of what we once took for granted or undervalued. It is time for all of us to take inventory of our priorities. Sometimes we think something is a waste of time and money if you do not see instant results. However, a tree needs to grow his roots deep under the ground (unseen) before he can become a mighty giant. Monastics are our root system. We need their prayers to help our Church grow in holiness.

Our dear, sweet Lord! Bless Holy Resurrection Monastery and their Bishop John (Botean).

Amen.
I'm not sure exactly what this means or what the Monastery hopes to accomplish by doing this?

In addition, Romanians are of the Byzantine tradition, correct, why do the Ruthenians, the Romanians, and all others of Byzantine tradtion join forces, so to speak?
Posted By: Reznut Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/28/05 08:58 PM
I must also quickly add that I do not see the change to Romanian as an earth-shaking issue for the rest of us. HRM is still Byzantine Catholic. They are still within the Family of Churches.

This move was not a revolution nor should it be made to look like it by those of us not directly involved with the situation.

God bless.
How many monks are at Holy Resurrection? How long has it been around? Are there any other monasteries? Are there any other monasteries that are trying to get started?

I am very interested about this topic, as I think it would be awesome for the monastic presence of Eastern Catholicism grow.
Check their internet site all the answers are there.

As for union with other byzantine churches in the USA or anywhere, I doubt it. You only have to look at the separate Ukrainian & Ruthenian diocese. There are too many things that divide them. Maybe in the years to come when they become more American and less linked to their mother churches. The important thing at present is that they work together and cater for all their peoples needs in the broader Catholic church.
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/29/05 05:19 PM
Any info on Ruthenian Catholic monastic communities in the Pittsburgh Metropolia?

How many went over to Orthodoxy?

How many were sacked by bishops with all the monastic clergy sent out to staff parishes?

Are the Byzantine Franciscans and Byzantine Benedictines (Butler, PA) still kicking? or did Rome assign them all to the episcopacy?

Without Holy Resurrection Monastery in the Pittsburgh Metropolia, what exactly are we left with?

What is the future of Ruthenian Catholic monasticism without HRM?

Is this all just an example of what Fr. Thomas Loya means by "dismantling" the church? After it is all dismantled, where do we build anew, if permitted? What is the blueprint? Or will future communities end up like HRM? Does Eastern Christian monasticism have a chance in the Pittsburgh Metropolia?

Joe
Joe,

For men:

Holy Trinity Monastery OSB Pittsburgh

Holy Dormition Monastery OFM Passaic

Mariapoch Monastery OSBM Passaic

St. Francis Monastery BBSF Van Nuys

Christ the Good Shepherd Monastery Van Nuys

For women:

St. Macrina Monastery OSBM Pittsburgh

Queen of Heaven Monastery OSB Pittsburgh

Holy Annunciation Monastery OCD Passaic

Holy Protection Monastery OSC Parma

Fr. Deacon Lance
Posted By: Jim Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/29/05 06:17 PM
Joe, I suggest you read the information on the HRM website. It mentions the ability to work nationally without encountering jurisdictional boundaries. With the Roumanians they can do that more easily, since the entire country is under one bishop.
Joe the monastery is still there in the same place and life goes on as it does day after day.

I see the point you make about the Byzantine monastic tradition issue. This is why Metropolitan Andrew of Lviv had the Studites created and why he sent his brother to a Benedcitine monastery to undertake the canonical novicate in a monastery. The Basilians of which the Metropolitan was one were not monks but a institute of Clerks Regular. They had been restructured and reformed and had were no longer Monks. You might note their Austro-Hungarian style of dress the men wear and the same latin style of dress was used by all the female religious in the Greek rite in the region. The Basilians ended up just another religious order in central Europe.

Also recall in many cirlces this was considered an improvment(latinisation)on their previous condition. Remember also no one held any office in the church at any level in the dual monarchy who was not considered loyal to the crown. So they had no chance to do anything but go with the flow and keep things ticking over.
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/30/05 08:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
Joe,

For men:

Holy Trinity Monastery OSB Pittsburgh

Holy Dormition Monastery OFM Passaic

Mariapoch Monastery OSBM Passaic

St. Francis Monastery BBSF Van Nuys

Christ the Good Shepherd Monastery Van Nuys

For women:

St. Macrina Monastery OSBM Pittsburgh

Queen of Heaven Monastery OSB Pittsburgh

Holy Annunciation Monastery OCD Passaic

Holy Protection Monastery OSC Parma

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Deacon Lance,

Thank you for answering with a list of existing monastic/religious communties in the Pittsburgh Metropolia.

How about my other questions?

Good day,
Joe
"How many went over to Orthodoxy?"

None of the above. Holy Cross Monastery in Miami did a few years back. Of course the monastery consisted of an abbot and one monk and was racked with controversy.

"How many were sacked by bishops with all the monastic clergy sent out to staff parishes?"

I do not know about the other Eparchies but in Pittsburgh the Benedictines are largely non-priest monks. Abbot Leo serves a parish but resides at the monastery.

"Are the Byzantine Franciscans and Byzantine Benedictines (Butler, PA) still kicking? or did Rome assign them all to the episcopacy?"

Aside from the Metropolitan no bishop is a monk/friar. Bishop William was OFM and Bishop John was TOR but both became diocesan clergy well before their elevation.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Deacon Lance,

It is like the two Franciscans who set up a fish and chips stand to raise money for charity.

Some smart aleck went up to one of them and asked, "Are you the 'fish friar?'"

He replied, "No, I'm the 'chip monk!'"

Alex
Posted By: Jim Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/30/05 10:37 PM
If the remaining monasteries in the Ruthenian Metropolia have a vision for the future of monasticism in America, they do not appear to be effective at delivering the message about it. For monasteries to prosper the laity needs to know their needs and the benefits associated spiritually with helping them and with being helped by them. The men's monasteries all appear to be almost invisible- except Holy Resurrection. Does that say something about priorities elsewhere? I hope not.
Posted By: JohnS. Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 11/30/05 10:59 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:

Is this all just an example of what Fr. Thomas Loya means by "dismantling" the church? After it is all dismantled, where do we build anew, if permitted? What is the blueprint? Or will future communities end up like HRM? Does Eastern Christian monasticism have a chance in the Pittsburgh Metropolia?

Joe [/QB][/QUOTE

Our "blueprint" is the light of Christ as seen in The Gospel, the Church Fathers, Oriental Lumen, Orthodoxy, HRM, etc.

We just need to follow the blueprint.

In Christ,

John
It is unfare to put the Fr Deacon on the spot or to expect him to asume the role of the one to answer on behalf of all who pass thru here. There some rather complex and deep questions in your contribution. Fr Deacon contributed along with others to a response. You seem angry / frustrated and thats Ok and we dont need to buy into your feelings either. Been there done that says the chorus. The Byzantine Churchs everywhere are on a journey to rediscover their heritage as commanded by Popes for nearly a century and by Vatican II in particular, in the one document that is there on the Oriental Churches (good & required reading). It is going to be a difficult thing to do as all the churches have to deal with their own histories and all that goes with it.

Keep on supporting HRM and keep the faith.
Pavel,

Are you associated with the monastery somehow?
The monastic foundations should be publicised to a greater extent. Most of us know virtually nothing of them.

For instance, what sort of monastic community is Christ the Good Shepherd Monastery? Does it follow the rule of Saint Basil?

This is all very interesting, the public should be encouraged to support all of these communities, and especially to organize new communities according to the traditions.

+T+
Michael
I have been to HRM. I stayed there for a few weeks in Novemeber 2000. I had met the Abbot in passing many years ago and seen him in the distancea few times. I have an interest in the byzantine history and the church. I enjoyed my for a number of reasons. I enjoyed joining in the liturgical life of the monks. It was my first visit the the USA and I met some local Americans on their own home ground who were very nice people indeed. So the visit shall we say was memorable.
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/01/05 05:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
It is unfare to put the Fr Deacon on the spot or to expect him to asume the role of the one to answer on behalf of all who pass thru here. There some rather complex and deep questions in your contribution.
In other words, the Ruthenian Catholic Metropolia has nothing in the way of Eastern Christian monasticism. Fr. Deacon Lance was the ONLY one who replied with a list of existing communities. If he knows, then he might know if any reflect a Eastern tradition without being a hybrid community. Nothing against the Byzantine Franciscans or Benedictines. They are some deeply spiritual people in these communities. I am talking about something like HRM in California, which we just lost. I've been to a number of defunct monasteries.

Joe
Joe,

My only experiences is with Holy Trinity in Butler, PA. Nothing about them would alert you that they a Benedictines. They are very much analogous to Holy Resurrection except they are older and don't get much press outside the Archeparchy. One priest, who spent a year at Mt. Athos, remarked after spending a retreat at Holy Trinity that it reminded him of little Athos. Sounds like authentic Eastern monasticism to me.

One should remember that Amalfion Monastery on Mt. Athos followed the Rule of St. Benedict. Another example is Kurisumala Ashram in Kerala. While technically a Cistercian monastery there is not a more Syriac and Indian monastery in Kerala. Being affiliated with a Latin Order for canonical purposes does not mean one has to sacrifice Eastern tradition.

Fr. Deacon Lance
I have had contact with Holy Dormition Monastery. Yes it is very limited and I never visited there but my contact was during my vocational discernment search.

For those of you who do not know, my discernment led me to a Latin Church religious order, the Carmelites of the Chicago Province. It is (or was haven't decided yet) distressing that I will journey down this road out side of the Byzantine Church but such is the way my discernment led me.

Now back to Holy Dormition Monastery. In speaking to the Vocations director for the OFM Province that the Byzantine Franciscans are part of. Only the Guardian resides at the Monastery. All of the other Byzantine Franciscans reside in parishes. At least at the time I was looking into them that was the way of things.
Posted By: Diak Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/02/05 01:54 AM
May the Lord abundantly bless the brethren of Holy Resurrection. Thank God they have found a hierarch to bless and support their vital work, and may that small seed in the desert spread throughout our country heedless of "jurisdiction". Many years to Hegumen Nicholas and all the brethren.

Deacon Diak
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
May the Lord abundantly bless the brethren of Holy Resurrection. Thank God they have found a hierarch to bless and support their vital work, and may that small seed in the desert spread throughout our country heedless of "jurisdiction". Many years to Hegumen Nicholas and all the brethren.

Deacon Diak
While I agree with this sentiment I can't help but have a nagging feeling about "jurisdiction hopping" that seems to have occurred in the past. Even to the point of jumping to Orthodoxy.

For some reason this just makes me sad.
David,

I too feel sadness that it came to be necessary to move jurisdictions. On the other hand I feel a gladness that now Holy Resurrection Monastery might be able to grow.

May God grant them Many Years! (and many vocations!)
Posted By: djs Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/02/05 04:42 AM
Steve,
I'd like to send a PM. Can you make some space in your mailbox.
In the east, is it tradition for communities to form around monasteries so as to avail themselves of spiritual direction from the monks?

If so, is it possible that this may happen with HRM?
DJS,

I cleared some space for PM's. I hadn't noticed how many were in my box! shocked

Made for Communion,

Actually there is a strong 'parish'community presence at HRM. This community is, I think, a great help in preparations for their annual pilgrimage in October. HRM provides spiritual direction for those 'regular' parishioners with Sunday teaching after the Divine Liturgy as well as showing to many the full daily liturgical cycle of prayer.

I wish I could make more trips there during the year beside the October pilgrimage.

Steve
Man, it would be awesome if there was a monastery close to my house. I'll have to make that pilgrimage next October, I'll be married by then so I wont need to pay for two rooms.
Posted By: djs Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/02/05 06:05 AM
To follow on from the Fr Deacon's earlier comments about the monks at Butler. St Benedict did not found an Order. He wrote a Rule for the monastery he lived in. He did not even start the community. He was professed by another monk form the area he was living in himself. He joined a pre-excisting group of small monasteries near Subiaco in central italy. He only moved to Monte Casino after one of the monks tried to kill him. He put together a Rule that is deeply rooted in Rules for monks already in place and well known. That is why scholars have detected segments of the Rule of the Master in the text. In the very last few lines of the Rule Bendict advised the reader to look to the writing of our holy Father Basil and the Fathers. The Italian penninsula was very Byzantine and lacking the lines historians would draw later like a barrier between east and west. Bendict remember is an Orthodox saint and highly regarded with many Hierarchs taking the name.

If you wanted to put a gun to a monks head and said take me to Benedictine HQ. There would be a problem as there is no such thing. For some time the church has encouraged croups of monasteries to group together as congregations. These being formed at different times and in different places never seem to have lost the old monastic ideal that monks make profession to the monastery and not to the congregation it belongs to. OSB monks will tell you what monastery they are from before they tell more of who they are. In the late 19 century the Popes wanted many older orders to form larger associations or mergers to happen. The Benedictines independant monasteries and excisting Congregations formed a confederation with a head (Abbot Primate) with no power for the Pope to talk to. This kept the monks and Popes happy. So as in Orthodox monastercism the benedictines have kept the traditional stucture of the monastery being the centre of the life of the monk. Butler performs that function within the Byzantine rite but as it is directly under the Pope like nearly all OSBs instead of local bishops, as are the Franciscans.
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/03/05 06:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
My only experiences is with Holy Trinity in Butler, PA. Nothing about them would alert you that they a Benedictines. They are very much analogous to Holy Resurrection except they are older and don't get much press outside the Archeparchy.
Fr. Deacon Lance,

Thank you. I stayed at the Butler monastery in the past and found the monks wonderful.

It seems that none of our monasteries get any press. Why do you think that is?

Joe
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/03/05 06:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MadeforCommunion:
Man, it would be awesome if there was a monastery close to my house. I'll have to make that pilgrimage next October, I'll be married by then so I wont need to pay for two rooms.
God bless and good luck. Marriage is a pilgrimage too.

Joe
Quote
Originally posted by Steve Petach:
I feel sadness that our eparchial heirarchy seems to be afraid of a successful self governed monastery.
Steve,

this comment of yours is somewhat presumptous. Your sentiment is certainly not found in the announcement on the HRM website, nor is this found in any communique from the Eparch of Van Nuys. One needs to be a bit more prudent with speculative comments.
Perhaps I was presumptous, however the word heirarchy does not mean a singular person. when there is little information offered to us laity regarding such matters one may be led to assume or presume.

My apologies to our heirarchy including our Eparch for being presumptous regarding the matter of the transfer of jurisdiction of HRM.

Since my post cannot be edited other than through moderators, then I would request that my post regarding the particular comment be excised from this thread.


Steve
Steve,

IMHO, no apology is necessary. You spoke about appearances, and that is perfectly within your right as a lay observer of events and certainly within the bounds of Christian charity. I disagree with Deacon John's assertion on this. Had you asserted it as fact, however, then I might be more sympathetic to his point. But by all appearances, a reasonable person might say that it "seems" as though there is a lack of sympathy on the part of some hierarchs for a self-governing monastery here in the US.

Gordo
I will just refrain from futher posts on this subject. I seem to have too strong an opinion regarding what I see as an unfortunate situation. In the long run it may well be best for both sides.

Steve
Quote
Originally posted by CaelumJR:
Steve,

IMHO, no apology is necessary. You spoke about appearances, and that is perfectly within your right as a lay observer of events and certainly within the bounds of Christian charity. I disagree with Deacon John's assertion on this. Had you asserted it as fact, however, then I might be more sympathetic to his point. But by all appearances, a reasonable person might say that it "seems" as though there is a lack of sympathy on the part of some hierarchs for a self-governing monastery here in the US.

Gordo
I agree there is no apology necessary (none was asked), but just so we are on the same page, Fr Maximos did offer this post in this thread:

Quote
I would certainly encourage interested people to visit our web page and read the statement there. There is really nothing to add , except to ask, again, for your prayers. (emphasis added)
So straight from the monk's computer to our forum, he cautions against speculation. So although you are certainly at liberty to disagree with me, I would ask that you heed Fr Maximos' counsel.
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
So although you are certainly at liberty to disagree with me, I would ask that you heed Fr Maximos' counsel.
Fater Deacon John,

One can certainly infer what you do from the good Father Maximos' quote. But remember that a monastery belongs to the whole Church (aka the people), not just to the bishop. While they have not been lost to the broader Catholic communion, it is, as has been said, of concern that they have been lost to our Metropolia. One can speculate all day as to the reasons why, and it is ultimately an unfruitful exercise - spiritually speaking. But I guarantee you that there are many who will watch with greater diligence when the next monastic community appears within our jurisdictional borders to see that no reason is given for them to leave...from any source.

Gordo
Posted By: Basil Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/04/05 01:46 AM
I know the Byzantine Franciscan's operate within both the Ukrainian and Ruthenian dioceses. I know when they had a Monastery in New Caanan, CT some of the priests taught at St. Basil Ukrainian Catholic Seminary in neighboring Stamford, CT. I know Brother Gus is Ukrainian.

I suspect there is more to the change.
Could I encourage people to move on and not engage in pointless speculation. They are now in the Romanian Eparchy and they are still in the same location they were before. Offer your prays and support them with your donations and visit them. They are very hospitable and enjoy having visitors and guests. Encourage others to visit and support the monks. How many people could include a bequest in their Will for the monastery. They still have those cells to complete. Anyone know any generous millionaires who are Catholic. smile We need to talk up the the Church, the Metropolia, Eparchy and the monastery. We need positive action at this point.
I apologise if i sound like I am preaching.
Isn't the owner of Dominoe's Pizza a rich multimillionaire, and also a Catholic?

I think the KFC CEO is also a rich Catholic.

Give 'em a call...
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
Could I encourage people to move on and not engage in pointless speculation. ...We need to talk up the the Church, the Metropolia, Eparchy and the monastery. We need positive action at this point.I apologise if i sound like I am preaching.
Pavel,

I could not agree more with your point about the worthlessness of pointless speculation. Except for the fact that I read all of the posts here and saw none. No one is asserting anymore than the obvious - HRM is now out of the Metropolia and in the Romanian Eparchy of Canton. As a member of the Metropolia, I am only sorry for our loss, even though it is not an ABSOLUTE loss by any means!

I'm all for a strong focus on our future. Now, thankfully, Holy Resurrection will have a future. I plan on making the pilgrimage next year. Perhaps I will see you then? Although Australia is hardly a hop, skip and a jump away, now is it!

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: Reznut Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/04/05 11:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by CaelumJR:
No one is asserting anymore than the obvious - HRM is now out of the Metropolia and in the Romanian Eparchy of Canton.
And what is exciting about that is, as stated on HRM's website, there is now a broader reach in the US since the jurisdiction of Bishop John Michael (God bless him!) is the entire nation rather than just a region. This is great for being able to help the spread of eastern monasticism into other states. I also pray that this will mean that the annual pilgrimage will draw more people from other states and that HRM will receive more support through prayer and donations from coast-to-coast!

I hope I don't gush too much in my posts about Holy Resurrection Monastery but my visits there have really deepened my love for Christ and has helped me get more out of the Divine Liturgy and our Eastern Christian spirituality, which I then bring to my parish, home, and workplace. Yes, I love and respect the souls that make up the Brotherhood there but it's actually the fact that my "Spiritual Batteries" get recharged every time I go there. I come away fully amped in my love for Christ and ready for the next phase of the spiritual battle. I heartily thank HRM for the spiritual recharge. I especially thank Hegumen Nicholas for his amazing sermons. They always inspire and challenge me! He is definitely annointed!

You know, to be honest, the more I think about this change in jurisdiction, the more excited I'm getting. I believe God is doing great things with this and that each person involved with this change is doing their part, whether they realize it or not, to begin this special project that is now underway. That's my gut feeling anyway. The part for the rest of us is to visit Holy Resurrection Monastery and Holy Theophany (in Olympia, WA), then bring the monastic life home with us, thereby becoming the leaven in our part of the world.

Anyhow, enough of my gushing ... :rolleyes:

In Christ, Michelle
Michelle,

I for one think that your enthusiasm is appropriate and your loyalties well placed!

HRM is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, and I agree: their new situation offers many more wonderful opportunities and we can all praise God for it!

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: djs Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/05/05 05:53 AM
I had thought it best to avoid posting on this thread, but I don't think Gorod's recent remark should pass without comment.

Quote
No one is asserting anymore than the obvious - HRM is now out of the Metropolia and in the Romanian Eparchy of Canton
This is simply not correct, Gordo. You yourself had written:

Quote
But by all appearances, a reasonable person might say that it "seems" as though there is a lack of sympathy on the part of some hierarchs for a self-governing monastery here in the US.
This latter statement certainly goes well beyond the one quoted above it. I don't know what criteria you have for a "reasonable person", but such a perspective is not "obvious"; it is a complete invention, at least in terms of what has been stated openly by the knowlegable parties.

This perspective - that this separation is rooted in a lack of sympathy for HRM, or not much caring for it, or a failure to realize the treasure that HRM represents, or a failure to understand its importance, or an undervaluing of it, etc. - on the part of the Bishop William, and even the whole Ruthenian church - has permeated this thread, and has also been quite explicitly made in two prior threads on this same topic.

I couldn't tell you with assurance that none these accusations are true. But I can tell you that none of them have any foundation in what has been disclosed by HRM on their site or by anyone else on any of these threads. And it wrong to suggest that speculative fault finding has not been done, by saying that the discussion has been restricted to the obvious fact of the jurisdiction-hop itself.

Given what actually has been disclosed, it is by no means obvious that one should be faulting our Bishop (or our church) for this outcome. But Bishop bashing is, of course, a recurring theme of the forum, so it comes as no surprise to find it on these threads too. And now it's to the point of being so automatic, that it seems invisible. Just asserting the obvious. :rolleyes: God bless Rose 2 for reminding us: "Blessed are the pure in heart".

As pointed out by HRM, that the very idea of a monastery that is "self-governing" yet under a Bishop had some kinks in it that had to be worked out. And it's not hard at all to imagine that, even with all parties acting in complete good faith to discharge their respective, onerous responsibilities, an impasse might have been reached that was solved most easily, if not optimally, by adopting the new structure.
In the absence of further disclosures, ISTM that this is about all that can, and arguably should, be said.
djs,

Not surpisingly, I vehemently disagree.

The fact that HRM began in the Metropolia and is now out of the Metropolia indicates that there was a reason to leave. A reasonable person might say that it "seems" that there is not the support for a self-governing monastery, especially since HRM began in one jurisdiction and has left for another. I never used the term "obvious", so do not attribute to me what was not actually said by me. My issue was that I thought that Steve should not apologize, and he was only talking about "appearances" as an observer of events. You'll notice that a few sentences later I said that if he asserted it as fact, than I think that he would be incorrect, unless he had evidence to support his claim.

Nowhere do I say that the bishop is at fault or that we should rally against the hierarchy or other such nonsense. Nor do I encourage speculation as to why (you will recall that I say it is a spiritually unproductive exercise). I am just disappointed that the Metropolia has lost a self-governing monastery. Period. And that we should be diligent in the future to ensure that it does not happen again (wherever the reasons come from).

An objective reading of my posts should make this clear. Again, please do not attribute to me what was not said.

Gordo
Posted By: djs Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/05/05 06:50 AM
What you said was:

Quote
I read all of the posts here and saw [no speculation]. No one is asserting anymore than the obvious...
Having read all of the posts on this thread (not to mention the other two), it is clear you are in error in suggesting that that no speculation has occurred - that "no one is asserting anymore than the obvious...". And I include your comment as asserting more than the obvious.
Not to belabor this point...

But I was only referring to this thread. At the time, I did not see anything that lead me to believe that anything was being asserted other than the sad fact of HRM moving on. I just did a quick rescan and can find some minor points (Steve's reference to hoping that Van Nys would value HRM being one), but nothing as bold or brash as what you ascribe to others, including, apparently, myself. Perhaps you are unintentionally telescoping multiple threads? I do not believe I weighed in on any of those particular threads, and only "chimed in" when I felt Steve had a right to his opinion, so long as he did not assert it as fact.

Regarding my own, I stand by what I said. You are wrong to attribute more to me than what was written, and nothing that I wrote implies or asserts the belief in any wrongdoing or negligence on the part of any member of the hierarchy.

As a matter of principle, I agree with you. It is not right to assert wrongdoing on the part of others without sufficient evidence. Bishops have a difficult and challenging enough job, without the faithful second-guessing them constantly. But they do make mistakes and the shepherd's staff is often a lightning rod. Ultimately God is their judge, not us...and they, like all of us, will have to give answer before the dread judgement seat of Christ.

For my part, this conversation at an end.

Godspeed to HRM and to Bishops John Michael and William of Van Nuys!

Gordo
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/05/05 05:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Reznut:
And what is exciting about that is, as stated on HRM's website, there is now a broader reach in the US since the jurisdiction of Bishop John Michael (God bless him!) is the entire nation rather than just a region. This is great for being able to help the spread of eastern monasticism into other states.
Reznut brings up an interesting observation. Now, that HRM is in a jurisdiction that is nation-wide, and also supportive of their unique form of outreach, there seems to be a better sentiment of them bringing Eastern monasticism to the rest of the U.S.

Might having multiple jurisdictions as in the Ukrainian and Ruthenian churches be an obstacle for any development? It is quite interesting, I think, that the growth of the number of bishoprics has increased inversely proportional to Eastern Catholic members. Of course, having only one bishop, who may be a despot, might be a problem too.

But I am talking about Eastern Monasticism. How many new monastic foundings have there been in the last decade? How many have left? In the past several years, we have heard of several monastic communities departing either one Eastern Catholic jurisdicition or the Catholic Communion altogether.

Do we, as Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics, have trouble dealing with monastic communities? How can one be happily supportive of such new communities if the only thing we hear about are departures? And why all from the Ruthenian Metropolia?

One last item: Now, that HRM has left the Ruthenian church building, will our priests get remprimanded for referring their monastic vocations to HRM, which lies outside "our" jurisdiction? I rarely heard about HRM in our eparchy in the past, maybe we will never hear about them in the future. Priests, not monks, seem to be needed. Am I hallucinating?

Joe
Posted By: Joe T Re: Holy Resurrection Monastery changing ??? - 12/06/05 05:24 PM
If one was in the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, where does one direct monastic vocations?

It was our eparchies that sent out the Vocation Icon and instituted the Called by Name program. Now what? What do we do with those who are called to monasticism in the Metropolia of Pittsburgh?

Please list the monastery/ies you would direct a man to. Also, list the monastery/ies you would direct a woman to. I would like to hear them.

Would HRM be on that list? It is still listed with its own link on the home page of byzcath.org even though it is not part of the Metropolia. Just wondering.

Thanks,
Joe Thur
I first what to thank djs for commenting as I was holding back but I agree with everything said by him.

Quote
Originally posted by CaelumJR:
djs,

Not surpisingly, I vehemently disagree.

The fact that HRM began in the Metropolia and is now out of the Metropolia indicates that there was a reason to leave. A reasonable person might say that it "seems" that there is not the support for a self-governing monastery, especially since HRM began in one jurisdiction and has left for another.
Not to add to any speculation or anything but a "reasonable person" might also see blame on the other side or maybe an unwillingness by both sides to work together.

With out being privy to the whole story any sort of speculation and/or attributing blame in this matter is wholly uncharitable in nature and should not be done.

And let us no forget, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Just a question though. What happens if the next bishop to head up the Romanian Eparchy has a different view of this? Will there be another hop?
Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:

Just a question though. What happens if the next bishop to head up the Romanian Eparchy has a different view of this? Will there be another hop?
I really do not think that this is a fair question. First it implies that they (HRM) are spiritual gadflies. The next point is, if you sit back and examine the situation, all three parties had to sit down and discuss the matter and agree to the change before it could be submitted to Rome for approval.

Instead of trying to assign blame to one party or the other or read into to a situation that may or may not exist, rejoice that a monastic witness is alive and still available for you to draw from.


In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Quote
Originally posted by Father Anthony:
Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:

Just a question though. What happens if the next bishop to head up the Romanian Eparchy has a different view of this? Will there be another hop?
I really do not think that this is a fair question. First it implies that they (HRM) are spiritual gadflies. The next point is, if you sit back and examine the situation, all three parties had to sit down and discuss the matter and agree to the change before it could be submitted to Rome for approval.

Instead of trying to assign blame to one party or the other or read into to a situation that may or may not exist, rejoice that a monastic witness is alive and still available for you to draw from.


In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Bless Father,

Yes you are correct, my question is not fair, yet neither is all the speculation against Bishop William and the Metropolia that has been going on here even when attempting to make it an abstract with the inclusion of "a reasonable person".
David,

Agreed! It seems that everyone wants to assign blame for the change. Bishops William and John-Michael along with the monastery had to sit down and agree that this change was in the best interest of their respective eparchies and for the monastery.

Everyone really must just get off the speculation, and accept the change and pray that is for the Glory of God, and for the spiritual benefit for the monastics, and for the faithful of both eparchies.

Some may not like or approve of the change, but it is not their perrogative, but really for those directly involved.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Monasteries

Byzantine Pittsburgh Metropolia

Basilian Fathers of Mariapoch
360 Monastery Lane
Matawan, NJ 07747-9703
Monastery Phone: 732-566-8445
Assumption Center Phone: 732-566-9724

Benedictine Monks
Holy Trinity Monastery
P.O. Box 990
Butler, PA 16004-0990
Rev. Leo Schlosser,OSB, Hegumen
Phone: 724-287-4461
Bookstore Phone: 724-287-4461

Byzantine Brothers of St. Francis
St. Francis Monastery
9443 Sharondale RD
Calimesa, CA 92320
Phone 909-795-0848

Christ the Good Shepherd Monastery
PO Box 432473
San Ysidro, CA 92143-2743
Phone: 526-687-6061

Franciscans
Holy Dormition Monastery
P.O. Box 270
Conyngham-Sybertsville, PA 18251
Phone: 570-788-1212


Byzantine Ukrainian

Holy Transfiguration Monastery
17001 Tomki Road
P.O. Box 217
Redwood Valley, CA 95470-1122
Telephone: (707) 485-8959

Skete of Holy Transfiguration Monastery
Star Route 1
Box 226
Eagle Harbor, MI 49950
Telephone: (906) 289-4384

Monastery of the Holy Cross
1302 Quincy Street NE
Washington, DC 20017
TEL: 202-832-8519

Order of St. Basil the Great
Province of the Dormition
Long Island New York

Ukrainian Redemotorists
250 Jefferson Avenue
Winnipeg, MB
R2V 0M6
Tel: (204) 339-5737

Most Holy Mother of God Monastery
Studite Monks
953376 7th line, R.R. 5
Orangeville, Ontario
L9W 272
519-941-9428

Byzantine Melkite

Basilian Salvatorian Fathers
30 East Street,
Methuen, MA 01844

Community of the Mother of God of Tenderness
79 Golden Hill Rd
Danbury, CT 06811

Our Lady of Solitude Cloister
P.O. Box 11
LeRaysville, PA 18829
Telephone - 570-395-0234

Byzantine Romanian

Holy Resurrection Monastery
45704 Valley Center Road
Newberry Springs, CA 92365
Phone: 760-257-4008

Maronite

Most Holy Trinity Monastery
67 Dugway Rd
Petersham, MA 01366
508 724-3347

Hermits of Jesus the Eternal Priest
P.O. Box 216
North Brookfield, MA 01535
1115 Worcester Road
New Braintree, MA, 01531
508 867-0134


Maronite Order of Blessed Virgin Mary
4405 Earhart Road
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105
(734) 662-4822


Our Lady of Solitude Hermitage
334 S. Main St
Phillipi, West Virginia 26416
(304) 457-3330

Convents

Byzantine-Pittsburgh

Benedictine Sisters
Queen of Heaven Monastery
8640 Squire Lane NE
Warren, OH 44484
Phone: 330-856-1813

Discalced Byzantine Carmelite Nuns
Holy Annunciation Monastery
403 West County Road
Sugarloaf, PA 18249-9998
Phone: 570-788-5310

Byzantine Nuns of St. Clare
Monastery of the Holy Protection
6688 Cady Road
North Royalton, OH 44133
Phone: 216-237-6800

Social Mission Sisters
Shrine of the Weeping Madonna
17485 Mumford Road
Burton, OH 44021-9640
Phone: 440-834-4078

Sisters of the Order of St. Basil the Great
Our Lady of Perpetual Help Province
Mt. St. Macrina
500 West Main Street
Box 500
Uniontown, PA 15401
Provincial Administration Phone: 724-438-8644
Motherhouse Phone: 724-439-4940

Byzantine Ukrainian

The Sisters of the Order of St. Basil the Great
Jesus, Lover of Humankind Province
710 Fox Chase Road
Fox Chase Manor, PA 19046

Sister Servants of Mary Immaculate
5 Austin Terrace,
Toronto, Ontario
M5R 1Y1

Maronite

Mother of the Light Community
Our Lady of Guadalupe Convent
314 Main St. P.O. Box 335
Rutland, MA 01543
508 886-6745

Convent of Antonine Sisters
2691 North Lipkey Road
North Jackson, Ohio 44451
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