www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Irish Anchoress From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 09:50 AM
http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=2641020&p=z64yx35&n=2641112

The thin edge of the wedge?
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 10:06 AM
I mean are these bishops trying to call down fire and brimstone upon us? Do they truly belive that Sodom and Gamorha (sp) was a fable?

If you look at the area of Sodom and Gamorha (sp) to this day there is a rock that stands oddly shapped and straight. The people will tell you that is Lot's wife.

I mean give this tired old world a break. God have mercy on our souls!
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 10:21 AM
I know; their "logic" is, and another Irish Bishop has said the same a few weeks ago, that what people to in their "Civil" secular lives does not matter. You can" see " their twisted logic in a sick way, but it is driving folk further and further from Jesus. There was one Irish Bishop who got the sack; look up Bishop Buckley. Also just now a lesbian couple here are challenging the courts over tax equality as they recently got "married" in Canada... Probably in a Church.. Our Mother House is in Canada; Mother Abbess has told me that a few weeks ago SIX pastors ( not sure what denomination and it matters not) have been arrested for saying they refuse to "marry" homosexuals in their Churhes. Canada has passed C250, what they call" anti-hate" laws, as have some states in the US; it is now illegal to read certain parts of the Bible in Church or say that homosexuality is a sin. Two pastors in Sweden are already in jail; and a US teacher is facing charges. It is truly of the Anti-Christ; organised, intelligent and totally ruthless. And what they are teaching in Canadian schools..... And home schooling families are being targetted also. My honest view is that no "gay " union CAN ever be blessed by God so those rituals are empty or probably Satanic now.
And the Episc church; there are still pockets of resistance, but as Jesus says, " a city divided againts itself"
I have been verbally and physically threatened for sying these things all my life.
When I was seeking an order etc, I learnt to read very carefully; that word" inclusive" means they welcome practising homosexuals.
The argument is that Jesus "included " everyone and loved sinners; and no amount of Scripture teaching avails. Some even say that.. well, I had better not go down that road!!!They say it is not "compassionate" to stop those in stable relationships being "married" or having sex. I frustrates the poor things.
As a Vowed Celibate I can assure them that that is not so.
We are fine! Mother Abbess writes tellingly on our Order web site of "sexual idolatry". But the battle is on now, well and truly. I think Jesus I can say all this safely here; and God help Ireland now. we are maybe the last bastion in Europe.
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 10:27 AM
PS scuse typos; poor eyes today!!!
And it is Gomorrah. I CAN spell; just my fingers cannot:)
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 10:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
I have been verbally and physically threatened for sying these things all my life.
When I was seeking an order etc, I learnt to read very carefully; that word" inclusive" means they welcome practising homosexuals.
The argument is that Jesus "included " everyone and loved sinners; and no amount of Scripture teaching avails.
It would seem that this is the reaction to telling the truth no matter what country you live in. Recently on a RC forum that I frequent, one member actually threatened to leave, not just the forum, but the Church as a whole, because she said this past election showed her that Christianity in the Church was very rare. She came across with that New-Age, touchy-feely type of Christianity where nothing is sinful and even if it is, it's not our place to put restrictions on people. When someone pointed out that she was right about us not having the right to judge people's souls, but that when sin was public we had the duty to call the person to repentance, she said it wasn't our place. No matter which Scripture was quoted to her, including a passage in Matthew's Gospel where the Lord himself gives instructions on how a sinner should be called to repentance (go to him alone, if he refuses, go with two friends, if he refuses, bring him to the Church, if he still refuses, cast him out)...well, lets just leave that one off. To be honest, she has gotten to me a bit on it. I try to remember that if one finger of mine points elsewhere, three more point back to me, making me three times the sinner, so I do start wondering if maybe people like her are right and we do have to just step back and let it all happen and say nothing. It's not like we can throw the stone, but yet, it seems like somethings going on are so major, so bad, that if we don't speak up somehow, then we are consenting to what is happening. My hero and idol, even though I have changed from West to East, is St. Thomas More...he has quite a few quotes which I love but one in this case always comes to my mind...when questioned about silence he said that the maxim of the law was "silence denotes consent"...

Vie
Posted By: byzanTN Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 12:31 PM
It has been said that when God really decides to punish someone, He first takes away their mind. Call it New Age, Political Correctness, or whatever. It seems that the only sins today are murder, and possible telling a racist story. I don't condone either one, but I suspect there still are many sins out there. I don't think any new ones have been invented, and certainly none of the old ones have gone away. It's like Pius XII said about the loss of the sense of sin. Isn't that what's happening here?
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 12:48 PM
Dear ByzanTN, Exactly! Well stated. The devil's greatest triumph is to convince us that he doesn't exist and then he can function best as exactly what he is: a LIER...indeed the prince of lies. His next step is to try and convince us that sin is not sin.

In His Holy Name,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: christiansteve Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 01:56 PM
Seems to come around every so often...I seem to remember a certain Russian Orthodox Priest (if you could call him that)that was very close to a certain Russian monarchy. Had ideas that the more you sinned the more you could be forgiven by Christ......now what was his name... wink Well, at least HE was eventually stopped, and by the people in authority no less! cool

Hopefully this will likewise become nothing again, but in this day and age I am not quite sure. Truly people need and are crying out to be lead by the Church.

In His Name,
Stephen
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 03:17 PM
One small point; I have never had any problems IN IRELAND. Quite the contrary. The Poor Clares I visit are totally with "orthodox" teaching on all this; we support each other. So we are strong here. Wearing the Habit here is rare; methinks that is partly why the faith is falling, so I literally stop the traffic on my rare outings. And always I can say, " I am not RC", and that opens doors and hearts. Folk need to talk re the problems, and always about Jesus and God. And all I have talked with, apart from one English assistant in a shop, say IT IS WRONG- period. But these Bishops are going to ruin it all now. And the other main "enemy" line of attack, the old "universalism" is gaining ground. The Franciscans held a conference; led by a Buddhist monk, and the write up gave cause for concern. And the Columbans also; "Does not matter if you are a Christian or not". The problems I have had were elsewhere; in Scotland I supported opponents of the new school curriculum that taught homosexuality as viable life style; some of the material was appalling; videos of 2 men in bed with a small girl atop the blankets. I managed then to get the relevant parts of Leviticus printed in the letters page of the paper.... Our Order is trying to get a House here. It is still a good place to live and to be a Nun, as I know so well.
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 03:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:

Two pastors in Sweden are already in jail
Correction: it is one pastor, not two. And he actually said that homosexuals deserve to die.

Christian
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:04 PM
Ok; reports vary; my apologies. Some said one. others said two.
There was little detail given; what was the context of that comment, please? I am not sure it warrants jail..
The US and Canadian situations remains. It is very real and open persecution.
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:08 PM
Vie; I salute you. Bless and thank you. This is what so many of us face. The other key text is John 8...Jesus does not say or imply that there was no sin; quite the opposite. Teaching and pointing out wrongdoing is not judgemental. It is compassion.
Posted By: Jennifer Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Ok; reports vary; my apologies. Some said one. others said two.
There was little detail given; what was the context of that comment, please? I am not sure it warrants jail..
The US and Canadian situations remains. It is very real and open persecution.
Do you have proof that these things have actually occurred?
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:12 PM
Jennifer; please stop attacking me!
OK? OK!
Thank and bless you.
Posted By: Amadeus Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:22 PM
Irish Anchoress:

Who is attacking whom?

Amado
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:24 PM
I am leaving the forums. All blessings. There are some blessed and wonderful folk, but some spoil it. Be blessed. Please take my name etc off?
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 04:36 PM
Jennifer dear...Sister knows of what she speaks...believe me. The important thing, as always---is to be merciful to others (especially in our judgments) as Christ is merciful to us. We need to be Gospel-people...and LIVE it...and stop just making an idol out of our Churches. Ya know? It's a dangerous temptation we all have---to make a 'false god' out of our Churches...instead of deepening our love and relationship with HIM using the Church for that relationship. (Just my poor personal thoughts) We need to put 'flesh' on our words and on our prayers by LIVING them in action after they're spoken? Ya know? Too much talk from all of us and not enough action! The prayers and the spiritual conversation is good, but it MUST be followed up with LIVING it out in ACTION...if we don't do that (relying on His grace) then we are simply Pharisees...and He will deny that He even knows us.

May God help us all!

In His Holy Name,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: From Ireland..... - 11/16/04 05:28 PM
{{Father}} I wrote my reply to Jennifer on her new thread before I read this. We think alike. To worship the Church or to worship IN the Church.....few see or know that. Maybe is why the Church is in a bad way... Bless you this night.
Posted By: Alice Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 12:24 AM
Dear Irish Anchoress,

I am sorry that you are thinking of leaving. I sense a real Christ centered humility in your posts. I don't think that you have attacked anyone. I agree that a certain poster has been VERY abrupt and confrontational to others and to you. That happens sometimes when one opens themselves up like you have. I am sorry to see anyone hurt you.

God bless you,
please remember me in your holy prayers,
Alice
Posted By: djs Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 12:47 AM
I would like to ask - from those of you willing to respond, and who have posted in very dramatic terms on this subject - for a clarification:

Are garments being rent over the very suggestion itself, or is it ONLY that the suggestion came from a Bishop?

I think a number of you just voted without outcry and in come cases with great enthusiasm, for presidential/vice presidential candidates who espouse civil unions for homosexuals - a status far more sdweeping the the limited legal niceties suggested by the Bishop.

What gives?
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 01:53 AM
DJS asked:
I would like to ask - from those of you willing to respond, and who have posted in very dramatic terms on this subject - for a clarification:

Are garments being rent over the very suggestion itself, or is it ONLY that the suggestion came from a Bishop?

Over the situation itself. The fact that a bishop makes the statement only makes it worse. Kerry was one thing, and it was wrong, but a bishop is to uphold the very Word of God. Kerry being a politician and a Catholic, knows better also. It is sad becasue the of coals that he is heaping upon his soul. Also, as a bishop or leader, the coals grow even deeper since they are leading the flock of Christ.

I love the individuals that are in this situation, but I do not condone the lifestyle and never have. I have never been afraid to speak the truth to someone that is involved in that lifestyle. I do it in love with compassion. I do not desire to have the coals heaped upon my soul, any more than I desire for their souls to parrish because of their actions.

I am a sinner, just like everyone else, I try to correct my own sins and listen to the guidance of the brothers and sisters God has placed around me. I have to be willing to be repentant myself. If no one ever speaks the truth to me when I am doing wrong and I don't realize it, then I may never have the opportunity to repent.

Jesus says to be transformed by his Word, not conformed to the world. GOD'S HOLY WORD IS BEING INGNORED! That my dear brother is what is happening by anyone who says the homosexual lifestyle is ok or should be blessed.

Pani Rose
Posted By: Charles N. Bransom Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 02:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
There was one Irish Bishop who got the sack; look up Bishop Buckley... My honest view is that no "gay " union CAN ever be blessed by God so those rituals are empty or probably Satanic now...I frustrates the poor things.
I have some problems with some of the comments you posted. You state that one Irish bishop "got the sack; look up Bishop Buckley." There is only one Roman Catholic bishop in Ireland with the surname Buckley: Bishop John Buckley of Cork and Ross who has been bishop of that diocese since 1997 and a bishop since 1984. He did not get the sack. If this is the person to whom you are referring, I respectfully request that you withdraw your comments.

If you are referring to "Bishop" Pat Buckley, please know that he is not now, nor has he ever been, a Roman Catholic bishop. There is a webpage which provides information about his supposed ordination as a bishop: http://jloughnan.tripod.com/thucbish.htm

You also state, in reference to gay unions, that "those rituals are empty or probably Satanic now." While we know that marriage is between a man and a woman, with respect I believe that your terming gay unions as "probably Satanic" is a bit much.

Finally, you refer to gays as "poor things." Human beings are not "things". I find it incredible that a vowed religious would employ such dehumanizing language for anyone, since we are all sons and daughters of God.

I wish you God`s peace.

Charles
Posted By: Brian Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 03:46 AM
Amen, Charles!
Posted By: Brian Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 03:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Pani Rose:


It is sad becasue the of coals that he is heaping upon his soul. Also, as a bishop or leader, the coals grow even deeper since they are leading the flock of Christ.
It is for Our Lord and a Spiritual Father to judge the state of a soul!
Posted By: djs Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 03:50 AM
But Rose, I was referring to Buch and Cheney who both, in no uncertain terms endorsed, civil unions for homosexual couples.
Posted By: Lawrence Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 04:25 AM
I Corinthians 6:9-11 Do not err; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor the EFFEMINATE, nor SODOMITES, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor the evil-tongued, nor the greedy will possess the kingdom of God.
Posted By: Zenovia Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 04:29 AM
Quote
ou also state, in reference to gay unions, that "those rituals are empty or probably Satanic now." While
we know that marriage is between a man and a woman, with respect I believe that your terming gay
unions as "probably Satanic" is a bit much.
Dear Charles,

Any thought and action that is not within our Lord's Grace, is definitely out of Grace, and therefore satanic. If one is not led by the Holy Spirit in his thoughts and actions, he is led by another spirit...A 'spirit' of dissension.

Civil unions may be acceptable politically for reasons of compassion, such as having one's partner make hospital visits, etc., but it will also make insurance rates rise...tremendously.

Gay marriages, on the other hand, is not a marriage in any terms, and therefore should not be called as such. It destroys the sanctity of the home, and frankly, has never been considered as such, in all of our five-thousand plus years of civilization.

To accept and practice a life style that is definitely outside of Christian teachings does not mean that we should lack compassion for the sinner. What we should never do though, is give that which is unacceptable, the pretense of acceptability and by doing so; respectability.

Christianity is a faith where we must accept our sinful actions, as being such. Not doing so, means that we are not accepting the very reason our Lord sent us His Son. Jesus was sent to suffer for our redemption. Without acceptance of ourselves as sinners, and repenting, how can we be 'redeemed'. Therefore our Lord's suffering on the Cross becomes meaningless.

Zenovia
Posted By: Gaudior Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 04:34 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Jennifer is quite correct to question Irish Anchoress. Verification of facts, as opposed to hearsay and opinion is vital to both journalists and lawyers, and should be to the rest of us.

We all know that someone has made statements that are slanderous, or, as this is technically print, libelous in character. Those people have had our Admins and mods jump on them with both feet, and were told that they could retract, or be banned, if no supporting evidence was forthcoming.

When Jennifer joined, she made some sweeping statements, and was promptly told by all and sundry to preface themn with "in my opinion" or something clearly differentiating between the two.

She is correct to verify statements before responding to them. Irish Anchoress need not feel that asking her to name sources of information is impolite. Being vowed in the True Church does not convey infallibility, as she is aware, and asking for verification is not a reason to pout, and complain that some people are spoiling the forum, and leave. Statements should be verified, if questioned.

I think that we would be guilty of judging Jennifer's comment should we automatically assume there was malice in it.

Gaudior, being just
Posted By: Charles N. Bransom Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 04:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Zenovia:
Dear Charles,

Any thought and action that is not within our Lord's Grace, is definitely out of Grace, and therefore satanic. If one is not led by the Holy Spirit in his thoughts and actions, he is led by another spirit...A 'spirit' of dissension.

Civil unions may be acceptable politically for reasons of compassion, such as having one's partner make hospital visits, etc., but it will also make insurance rates rise...tremendously.

Zenovia [/QB][/QUOTE]

Dear Zenovia,

With respect, I must disagree with you when you state that "Any thought and action that is not within our Lord's Grace, is definitely out of Grace, and therefore satanic." Life is not black and white and neither is God. I don`t see human actions as being either God-centered or satanic. Actions can be moral, immoral, or amoral. I don`t equate an immoral act as ipso facto a satanic act. I think that you give too much credit to Satan. An action which is objectively sinful can be, for this or that person, not sinful, subjectively, due to that person`s imperfect understanding of the sinful nature of the act.

As for your comment on the results of civil unions "but it will also make insurance rates rise...tremendously", please advise what studies or other documentation you have to support your statement.

Take care and God bless,

Charles
Posted By: byzanTN Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 10:45 AM
Just a question for the legal minds, for my own information. I understand the arguments for civil unions such as inheritance, insurance beneficiaries, powers of attorney in serious illness, etc. Isn't it possible to draw up legal documentation to guarantee all those rights without the civil unions? I would think it would be, but I am not a lawyer and wonder if this is correct.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 11:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Just a question for the legal minds, for my own information. I understand the arguments for civil unions such as inheritance, insurance beneficiaries, powers of attorney in serious illness, etc. Isn't it possible to draw up legal documentation to guarantee all those rights without the civil unions? I would think it would be, but I am not a lawyer and wonder if this is correct.
OK a little FYI here - dealing with the original Press clipping from Irish Anchoress

Over here in the UK [ honestly not sure about Eire ] but yes, these agreements that Charles mentioned, can be made BUT why they were looking for legal status would be for things like Government Pension , Tax benefits, National Insurance benefits etc - to receive them a couple have to be a legally married couple.

For some work related benefits eg free/subsidised travel for transport employees [ where it is given ] 'gay' couples have resorted to court action to gain these and as a result that discrimination has on the whole I believe stopped.

Please note - I do not state whether or not I agree with this - I'm just trying to help clarify things a wee bit

Anhelyna
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: From Ireland..... - 11/17/04 02:06 PM
I would like to stay Charles is right, that only God can judge and I stand corrected in that. However, I do know what the Scripture tells us, and that concerns me for their soul and mine.

We have had many friends through the years(we've been married 35 yrs.) that have been homosexual, and we have loved them just as we would our hetrosexual friends. We have also and stil do have many friends who are homosexual and living a chaste life just as we do hetrosexual friends, I believe both are very pleasing to God. If we have friends, unmarried, who are not living a chaste life that is wrong, and I will not be afraid to say so. However, everything must be said with love and compassion and said in private or at a time that the door is opened for conversation, not just in blatant moment of judgement. Judging someone is wrong, you are right only God can judge. However his Word gives us knowledge to call a spade a spade. Whether homosexual or hetrosexual having sex outside of marriage is just as wrong!

The bottom line is to love the sinner and not the sin. To say something without love and comapassion is but a clanging cymbol before man and God, it bears no fruit. To say it with love, and in right order, lets the light of Christ shine through and helps man to make peace with himself and God.

Pani Rose
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 05:45 AM
Charles,
You miss the "Irishism" it is quite common for people in Ireland to say such phrases as "the poor thing" or even "the poor creature" nothing bad is meant by it.
Stephanos I
Posted By: incognitus Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 07:02 AM
Further to Anhelyna's point (which is well taken): problems can arise because of the inconsistency of existing legislation, and sometimes these problems can be quite serious. Sex (or rather the pracice of sex) need not be involved. To take a simple example, two people decide to purchase a dwelling-house together (perhaps for economic reasons, perhaps for reasons of security, or whatever). They live in the house, which is the only dwelling-place either one of them has, and they share the expenses for 20 or 30 years. One then dies - and if they have bought the house jointly the survivor gets hit with an enormous tax bill, probably at the time of life when the survivor is living on a fixed income. But this is by no means true everywhere. Neither are the rules and conditions for avoiding such a huge tax bill the same everywhere; it can become unbearably complicated. Hence many people think that it would be better to have an across-the-board law regulating the inheritance of one's own home, probably specifying that if this really is
the place where you live and have already lived for X number of years, you inherit the house tax-free. An excellent legal reason for doing this is that it reduces the likelihood that the survivor will become dependent on government assistance.
There are many such issues, and the differences from one place to another can become maddening. Hence the desire to have a standard regulation throughout the European Union (which is where Anhelyna lives).

Incognitus
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 09:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Stephanos I:
Charles,
You miss the "Irishism" it is quite common for people in Ireland to say such phrases as "the poor thing" or even "the poor creature" nothing bad is meant by it.
Stephanos I
It's not just an Irishism - I've never been there - and I do it smile

I have even been known to say 'you poor wee soul ' - have done this to at least 2 members of this Forum and they understood perfectly.

Anhelyna
Posted By: Charles N. Bransom Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 04:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Quote
Originally posted by Stephanos I:
[b] Charles,
You miss the "Irishism" it is quite common for people in Ireland to say such phrases as "the poor thing" or even "the poor creature" nothing bad is meant by it.
Stephanos I
It's not just an Irishism - I've never been there - and I do it smile

I have even been known to say 'you poor wee soul ' - have done this to at least 2 members of this Forum and they understood perfectly.

Anhelyna [/b]
Dear Father Stephanos, dear Anhelyna,

Thank you for your replies. This thread, which was begun by Irish Anchoress, touches on issues which evoke strong reactions by people of faith, reactions which span a rather broad spectrum of views. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin was voicing his views about what is just in Irish civil law. He is a man of deep faith. He spent many years in the service of the Holy See, including several years as Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace and as Permanent Observer of the Holy See to the United Nations` Office in Geneva.

I might discount such a phrase as "poor things" if it were not for the comments which preceded it, especially the use of the word "satanic." Such words, when applied to people or their actions, do demonize them (no pun intended) and also dehumanize them. So, when "poor things" follows the suggestion that certain actions may be satanic, I do not discount the phrase as a colloquialism.

I also note that Irish Anchoress posted on this Forum after I posted my reply and she did not clarify her comments about "Bishop Buckley." It appears to me - and I apologize if I my perception is wrong - that Irish Anchoress does not take kindly to being asked to clarify an unfounded or unclear statement.

Anhelyna, I would never object to being called a "poor wee soul" - you can call me that whenever you wish. BTW, I find your posts to be beautiful and faith-filled.

Take care and God bless,

Charles
Posted By: Zenovia Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 06:41 PM
[QUOTE]

With respect, I must disagree with you when you state that "Any thought and action that is not within
our Lord's Grace, is definitely out of Grace, and therefore satanic."

As for your comment on the results of civil unions "but it will also make insurance rates
rise...tremendously", please advise what studies or other documentation you have to support your
statement.

Dear Charles,

Within the spectrum of the state of one's soul, there is a center. The grey area's are either on one side of Grace or the other. They are either with our Lord, or without out Lord. Now to what extent, depends on the individual and their spiritual growth.

As for the cost of recognizing civil unions, I had heard it mentioned on a news broadcast that in Canada, they are now realizing the astronomical costs of accepting them. But then again, that is common sense, if one considers that homosexuals will be getting the same benefits as married couples. Especially if one considers the prevalancy of AIDS in the homosexual community.

As for homosexuality itself, it appears we are living in an immoral era. It was not prevalent in era's where it was not accepted. They were not all hiding in closets, as so many want to assume.

As an example: When reading the authorized biography of Lawrence of Arabia, his closest friend was an admitted homosexual. When asked if Lawrence was, he said that the very idea would have been abhorrent to him. He also stated that one must understand the times. It was something that simply did not enter one's mind.

The same thing was also mentioned in a catalogue on the Belle Epoch by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. The catalogue stated, that lesbianism was common and laughed about, (we have only to look at the paintings of the expressionists), while the idea of male homosexuality, was abhorrent, as well as a criminal offense.

Again, Lord Byron stated how he loved going to the Near East under the Ottomans, where such things were acceptable...and I could go on and on.

It appears from these writings, as well as from my own experience in my youth, that the idea of homosexuality enters minds more readily in a decadent era such as ours. An era and place where people have turned from our Lord.

I personally consider such things demonic, as I do so many other things such as depression, etc., as well as the rise of witchcraft and these New Age movements.

Zenovia
Posted By: no one Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 06:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Zenovia:


I personally consider such things demonic, as I do so many other things such as depression, etc., as well as the rise of witchcraft and these New Age movements.

Zenovia [/QB]
If depression is demonic, then medication and psycho-therapy have been better exorcists than holy water when I was recently suicidal. I find comments like this a slap in the face to all of us who suffer from clinical depression. I know of no credible Catholic or Othodox Church spokesperson that would describe medical or psychiatric illness as demonic. Oh, and by the way, my depression stems back to sexual abuse by a religious brother, a monk and the Church is paying for the psycho-therapy. If my depression were demonic in nature, wouldn't they offer a good old fashioned exorcism instead? It would be a whole lot cheaper for them. I am totally disgusted by this type of comment! Don
Posted By: Zenovia Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 07:35 PM
Quote
if depression is demonic, then medication and psycho-therapy have been better exorcists than holy
water when I was recently suicidal. I find comments like this a slap in the face to all of us who suffer
from clinical depression. I know of no credible Catholic or Othodox Church spokesperson that would
de
Dear Don,

Sorry if I offended you, it was not intended, especially from one that suffers chemical imbalances and depressions myself, and needs tranquilers to sleep. Actually depression is quite prevalent in my family, so I think what I stated was taken out of context. It's hard to relate one's own personal experiences in life to others that have not had similar experiences.

What I should have stated is that a whole society and atmosphere can fall under a shade of demonic influence and cause these things to become more commonplace.

I recall one theologian saying that Seattle had the largest suicide rate in the nation, (at the time). He said, (and I'd rather not mention his name), that at one time when he was in a hotel room in Seattle, he was overcome with the most oppressive sense of depression imaginable. He personally believes that each city and area, suffers from its own specific demon.

I can relate that to some of my own experiences. I recall times when I would wake with the most oppressive depression imaginable. I don't know how I would have survived even a minute of it, had I not prayed and been immediately freed.

I do not in any case suggest, that people stop taking medication. That would be rediculous. I would have to be the first one.

Zenovia
Posted By: Charles N. Bransom Re: From Ireland..... - 11/18/04 08:12 PM
Dear Zenovia,

Peace! Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply.

I agree with you that people`s souls have grey areas which are either with the Lord or without the Lord. When I arise in the morning, I offer the day to God. Undoubtedly, there will be actions or lack of actions in a day which are not pleasing to Him and I ask Him to heal me and help me to correct those imperfections, those sins.

However, I do not believe that all personal sins are demonic actions. As human beings, we (the expansive "we") are imperfect and have an inclination to want things done our way, which is not always God`s way. While there is no doubt in my mind that all of us are, at times, tempted by the evil one, I believe that more of our sins are due, proximately, to our own pride and the temptations of the world rather than those of the father of lies.

As for the cost of civil unions, you referred to insurance rates. I believe, and our Canadians friends are surely the experts on this, that with socialized medicine (for all: I don`t think the word socialized is bad, any more than the words liberal or conservative), insurance rates are a non-starter if everyone is covered by health insurance.

As for "domestic partner" health insurance offered by some employers in the U.S., I know from family members that the person who is the primary policy holder pays a larger monthly premium for the partner`s coverage than for his/her own coverage and that the DP`s part of the premium is not tax-exempt, as are the primary policy holder`s premiums.

You stated "Especially if one considers the prevalancy of AIDS in the homosexual community." While a majority of the cases in the U.S. result from male-to-male contact (55% = 481K out of 877K) (CDC, cumulative cases through Dec 2002:
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#exposure )
that does not translate into "prevalent". If one is to accept the standard but unsubstantiated percentage of gays and lesbians to be 10 percent, then we would be looking at a gay/lesiban population in the U.S. of 29.5 million (based on the current population of almost 295 million:
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/popclock )

My definition of "prevalent" would not mean just under 2% of a group (481K out of 29.5 million).
In fact, the overwhelming number of cases of HIV/AIDS world-wide is among heterosexuals. Botswana has the highest national rate - 36% of its adult population. Catholic News Service ran a sobering, sad story this past Monday. The bishop named in the story, Franklyn Nubuasah, is a great man. I have known him, by correspondence, since he was named a bishop. He shows the face of Jesus to the suffering
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0406286.htm

You wrote: "As for homosexuality itself, it appears we are living in an immoral era. It was not prevalent in era's where it was not accepted. They were not all hiding in closets, as so many want to assume." The two examples you cite do not make the case for it not being prevalent in past times. The first example is the personal opinion of one person about another. The second example has some very telling words: "the idea of male homosexuality, was abhorrent, as well as a criminal offense." That it was a criminal offense is all the more reason for gay men to be hiding in the closet. As for it being "abhorrent", that was the opinion of the person who wrote the article for MOMA.

Yes, there is much immorality in the world, but I find the lack of respect for life from conception to natural death (yes, Seamless Garment, which someone else called "nonsense"), the unbridled capitalism with all of its worse elements (greed, cut-throat commercialism, exploitation of workers and the poor)which has been exported to the rest of the world from the U.S., and the lack of self-control in all areas of life to be equally as troubling as the unbridled promiscuity among people of all ages and orientations. The tourist sex trade in Thailand comes to mind.

I believe that all of us who have been called to new life by Christ through baptism and chrismation have an obligation to bring healing to this world, by our words and by our actions and,yes, by our prayers. The sacraments of initiation configure us to Christ, making us part of His body. We must be His arms to embrace the sorrowing, His voice to speak loudly and often about justice, and by our actions make His love concrete and visible in a world which is hurting badly.

Thanks again for your reply.

Peace,

Charles
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