www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Irish Melkite Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/22/03 05:53 PM
I received the following just now in my e-mail from the CINEAST forum. Haven't seen it anywhere else to vouch for its authenticity. For a supposed "news summary", it's heavily editorialized.

Neil

Subj: CE: Fwd: CWN Weekly News Summary
Date: 11/22/2003 12:15:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: the.avatar@att.net
Reply-to: cineast@cin.org
To: cineast@cin.org
CC: eastern.catholics.topic@ecunet.org
Received from Internet: click here for more information


Cardinal Lubomyr Husar, the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Catholic
Church, announced that he is moving his archepiscopal see from Lviv to Kiev
within the next few weeks. If you think that's a minor story-- just
relocating the headquarters-- you are very much mistaken. This move could
have enormous implications for the future of ecumenical relations: both for
the Eastern churches in union with Rome, and for the Vatican's efforts to
draw closer to the Russian Orthodox Church.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, you see, is the largest of all the
Byzantine-rite churches in full union with the Holy See. Brutally
persecuted during the Stalin era, the Byzantine Church re-emerged with
remarkable vigor after the fall of Communism, and soon the Russian Orthodox
Church, which views itself as a sponsor of the neighboring Ukrainian
Orthodox, was complaining about the muscular new Catholic presence. (To
complicate matters, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is split into three
factions, fighting among themselves.) The Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy is
not apologizing for the growth of their Church. On the contrary, by moving
to Kiev (the nation's capital), they are plunging into the heart of what
has been historically Orthodox territory, and staking a claim to represent
the true religious heritage of the Ukrainian people.

Moscow won't swallow that claim easily. And the Ukrainian Catholic
leadership is also causing a good deal of nervousness at the Vatican, where
many prelates are doing their best to ease the current tensions that
separate Rome from Moscow.

And that's still not the whole story. For generations, Ukrainian Catholics
have asked the Vatican to recognize their Church as a patriarchate-- like
the patriarchates of several other smaller Eastern-rite churches: Maronite,
Melkite, Chaldean, etc. Cardinal Husar raised the stakes a bit in his most
recent statement, asserting that the Ukrainian Church is a patriarchate,
and calling upon the Vatican "to recognize this historical reality."

As you can see it's a fascinating story, loaded with ecumenical
significance. Having been faithful to their ties with the Catholic Church--
and endured savage persecution for it-- Ukrainian Catholics now want the
Vatican to show faith in them. That's not an unreasonable request. But any
show of faith could carry a high cost, in terms of angry reactions from
Moscow. Watching this story, one is reminded that the Eastern Catholic
churches often don't trust Rome. And the Orthodox churches, keenly aware of
that mistrust, are reluctant to draw closer to Holy See. It's a Catch-22
situation: If the Vatican gives its full backing to the Eastern Catholic
churches, the Orthodox will be offended. But if the Vatican doesn't fully
support the Byzantine Catholics, the Orthodox will fear that Rome doesn't
respect the Eastern Christian tradition.


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Posted By: Hritzko Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/23/03 06:32 PM
There is no doubt that the ROC

(1) A major Ukrainian news television network (1+1) based in Kyiv conducted a poll regarding the most popular religious leader in the country. The result of the poll gave Patriarch Lubomyr more votes than all the other leaders combined.
(2) Patriarach Lubomyr was able to organize during John Paul's visit to Ukraine the world's largest divine liturgy with an estimated 1.5 million participants (outskirts of Lviv).
(3) Patriarch Lubomyr preaches and lives a life which is a stellar example for others.
Posted By: Hritzko Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/23/03 09:10 PM
Seems I got cut off....

The ROC has reason to be concerned. See my message above. For 400 years Muscovy has been pushing the UGCC church out of Ruthenia, first to the western Rus lands, and eventually underground and into the diaspora. Today the church is marching fast forward back to it's original Metropolia and the people of Ukraine are welcoming this event. I say welcoming, because polls taken by a wide variety of media groups indicate that the people of Ukraine are favorable to this happening. The UGCC is building a beautiful Patriarchal Sobor, residence and administrative complex on the Left Bank of Kyiv (see the the UGCC web site - Ukrainian language) for pictures of the complex being built which faces the Pecherska Lavra or Monestary of the caves). God willing, we hope to be able to pray in it by 2006 with the Catholic Patriarch of the Kyiv-Halych Rus lands.
Posted By: Brian Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/23/03 10:59 PM
Not getting into natiional and religious politics or to appear to support the MP Patriarchate in all things (which I don't), I thought that the great majority of believers in East Ukaine were Orthodox Christians?? I can see how this action of the UGCC might look a bit provocative to the Orthodox. Again, this is just an observation. I would like to know how many Greek Catholics reside in Eastern and Central Ukraine?
Posted By: Hesychios Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/23/03 11:44 PM
Greetings,
Looking at this from way outside as an observer, it seems to me that the ROC is very solid in the east. From what I have picked up in other ways the people are much more Russified there as well.

Historically, as part of the conquest (so very long ago) new settlers were brought in to work the land and Russian may be the first language of many there.

Ditto for Crimea.

The ROC has complained that three diocese in the west were entirely lost when the UGCC was reconstituted, most of the active priests there were probably trained in the few operating ROC seminaries. I am sure their training was excellent, and I'll bet those Ukrainian seminarians from all over the country got to know each other very well over a 44 year period.

So I guess the extreme West is firmly set one way and presumably the East is pretty firmly set with the MP. One would think with all of the religious rivalry in the central core of the country the old diocesan structures must be in complete disarray.

Perhaps there is a strong sympathy with the UGCC because of long years of underground resistance to the Soviet government, but I cannot help but think that the move could provoke a backlash of sorts and galvanize opposition.

The people of central Ukraine know that at one time their people were included in the Ruthenian Union, I wonder if those years are regarded unfavorably or favorably in the collective conscience. It could make a difference in how they view the new developments.

Lastly, the new UGCC ecclesistical structures in the east and Crimea were designated , not as dioceses, but as exarchates. Is that a big hint?

Just rambling on...
Michael
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 05:33 PM
Dear Rambler Michael,
Ukrainian Greek Catholics were deported to Eastern Ukrainian territories during Stalin's time and nowadays further migration of Western Ukrainians continue due to job opportunities and whatever. It is true that Ukrainian Greek Cathiolics in Eastern Ukraine are in small number, but than again numbers are changing.
As for Patriarch Husar moving to Kyiv, nobody seems to be able to stop him, neither Moscow nor the Vatican. The Orthodox of the KP and the UAOC don't have anything against it, and from what I've read Patriarch Filaret is happy about it because he said that he'll have someone to talk to and I'm pretty sure that Archbishop Ihor Isichenko of the UAOC will be stopping over for tea as well at Husar's new residence. Things seem to be changing and changing for the better.
Lauro
Posted By: Hesychios Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 06:29 PM
Glory to Jesus Christ!

I am glad that the relations between the Kyivan churches are so cordial.

Perhaps there will be a time when they can all share the chalice.

It's worth a few extra prayers!

Michael
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 07:12 PM
Ah...To share the same chalice.
This indeed will be the biggest and brightest day of all. I do hope and pray that this day will come soon, and you know something, I think that it will.
Lauro
Posted By: OrthoMan Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 07:24 PM
[The Orthodox of the KP and the UAOC don't have anything against it, and from what I've read Patriarch Filaret is happy about it because he said that he'll have someone to talk to and I'm pretty sure that Archbishop Ihor Isichenko of the UAOC will be stopping over for tea as well at Husar's new residence. Things seem to be changing and changing for the better.]

Perhaps they can also invite (*) His Holiness Pope Puis XIII to tea also since he is another self proclaimed Pope who heads his own created (true)Roman Catholic Church? Since, once again, the canons are brushed aside in favor of politics and national pride!

(*) http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/

OrthoMan
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 07:33 PM
Dear OrthoMan,
Being the person you are and me being the Ukrainian that I am, I'd still invite you to my home for some tea. (by the way if you don't like tea we can sit down and finish off a bottle of "schnapps")I'll hide the knives so that we don't hurt ourselves.
Lauro
Posted By: OrthoMan Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 08:43 PM
[Dear OrthoMan,
Being the person you are and me being the Ukrainian that I am, I'd still invite you to my home for some tea.]

As I would also invite you into my home. Same as I invite my Ukrainian neighbors all the time. One being Ukrainian Greek Catholic and the other Ukrainian Baptist.

Unfortunately, neither of us are religious hierachs. So our invitations are social in context and not the same as they would be if we were religious leaders.

My point being if Cardianl Husar is willing to make exceptions for non canonical Orthodox entities, is he willing to use those same standards to make exceptions for either Roman Catholics or Byzantine Greek Catholics created the same way? How about he invite the head of the Byzantine Catholic Church Inc. for tea along with all the other self proclaimed churches and hierachs? They can have an ecumenical gatherig of vagrante Hierachs!

OrthoMan
Posted By: Administrator Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 09:44 PM
I think this is an overall good move by Patriarch Lubomyr, despite the political discord it brings.

First, the historic see of Byzantine Christians in Ukraine is in Kiev. It is from Kiev that we [Slavic Byzantines] all received Christ and the Orthodox Christian faith.

Second, it is the capital of Ukraine. Even if there were no Ukrainian Greek Catholics in Kiev it would make sense to head the Church in the capital city. Two American precedents quickly come to mind. The RC Archdiocese of Washington was created for a similar reason (there was already an Archdiocese and cardinal in nearby Baltimore). Likewise, the OCA chose to create an Archdiocese of Washington (currently led the Most Blessed Archbishop Herman). It is the capital see that is given the title of �Metropolitan of All America and Canada� (even though there are numerically far more Orthodox in Greater New York City / Syosset than in Washington, DC).

I think that Moscow position on the question of a Ukrainian patriarchate is very self-serving. Creating patriarchates along national lines is the historic custom within Orthodoxy. Ukraine has been Christian for over a millennium and certainly has enough people to justify its own patriarchate. Add into this mix that there is still a general distrust of the MP because its collaboration with communists to persecute fellow Christians and it is pretty easy to see why they want their independence (keep in mind that this is an ongoing issue in the ROCOR/MP dialogue). Then consider that the only loss for Moscow would the number of people as well as the claim to be the direct heir to Kiev.

Regarding who gets invited to tea, I appreciate Bob�s example but such an example is really dependent upon numbers. The �non canonical Orthodox� entity Bob is referring to is at least twice the size of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Their size automatically places them on the invitation list. In an imaginary parallel situation (one where there was an Independent Byzantine Catholic Church that is much larger than our own Church) I would expect they would be included in any invitations. Likewise, if this �True Catholic Church� Bob uses in his example actually had numerous adherents it would always be worthwhile to include them in fraternal events. [If it is possible, it is always a good idea to invite everyone, no matter how small.]
Posted By: incognitus Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/24/03 11:19 PM
There is no geographical area or circumscription of "Ruthenia", so nobody can move into or out of it.
Trying to determine the exact number of Greek-Catholics in any specific region of Ukraine would be difficult-to-impossible. But there are certainly Greek-Catholics in Kiev.
Nobody can reasonably deny any significant religious body the right to a presence in the capital city of the nation in question. Washington, D.C., is home to various important religious edifices, which don't seem to do inordinate amounts of harm to much of anyone.
Incognitus
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 06:01 AM
Not sure exactly how the geographics of the UGCC's Archepiscopal Exarchy of Kyev-Vyshhorod relate to Kyev itself but, according to Annuario Pontificio 2003, that jurisdiction has 397,200 faithful, served by 67 secular/diocesan priests in 129 parishes.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: incognitus Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 08:20 AM
Since Neil (Irish Melkite) started this thread, perhaps it's the appropriate place to remark that the original Irish Melkite is, of course, Saint Colman of Melk. Incognitus
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 02:26 PM
Dear Friends,

Just dropped in to thank the Administrator on an excellent, articulate and sensitive post on this issue.

The Russian Church and press, in fact, regards all three Ukrainian Eastern churches as "uncanonical."

When the copy of the Shroud of Turin was making its rounds, clergy and members of the UGCC, UAOC and UOC-KP joined together in processions etc.

The Russian press referred to them as a kind of motley crew of: "uniates, autocephalists and filaretites."

And Patriarch Husar is actually disobeying the RC view that Catholics may only have ecumenical relations with canonical Orthodox churches.

Ultimately, blood is thicker than water.

And while there are many Ukrainians in the UOC-MP, the ecclesial perspective of the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine where it must be somehow subject to the Patriarch of Moscow and "all Rus'" is something that is, regrettably, still part of the colonial heritage of Russian Orthodoxy, canonical or not.

The Russian Church itself broke some canons, as we understand, in its history when it took over the Kyivan Metropolia and its heritage. The same obtained when it proclaimed a patriarchate for itself. The ROCOR and other groups have also claimed the Russian Church under Pat. Sergius broke canons when it agreed with the soviet state etc.

The three uncanonical groups fo the Kyivan Church, as Moscow sees it, will continue to pull closer together and work together in Kyiv.

From the perspective of the Kyivan Church, such as it is today, it is Moscow who is the usurper and which is, morally at least, on questionable canonical grounds.

Your sinful servant,

Alex
Posted By: Diak Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 03:56 PM
Alex, once again your incredible gift of synthesis and relevant summarization is manifested.

I would also add the "non-canonical" erection of the Bulgarian Patriarchate which was ignored by much of the Orthodox world for many years but is now accepted as completely canonical. Funny how those things seem to ebb and flow, and what can be rationalized by the "canonical" church as "non-canonical" can years later be just as easily rationalized as "canonical". What comes around...goes around.

The establishment of a parallel Church of Moscow to an established Kyivan Metropoltinate would certainly today be looked upon as "non-canonical". The whole "canonical" argument by the MP and others just doesn't stand up to the laugh test anymore at least with me. All Ukrainian politics and nationalism aside, as we can look historically at the Bulgarian situation and others such as Estonia.

And it's ironic also that the ROCOR would entertain reunification with a hierarchy it believed even 10 or 15 years ago was invalid and heretical (and made profuse public statements to that effect).

Kyiv is the historic see of the entire Church of Rus', and thank God there are ever-improving relations with Patriarchs Lubomyr and Filaret. I look at the situation with Patriarch Filaret as rather the restoration of the historic see of Kyiv than a vagante or rogue schism.

The seemingly certain election of Viktor Yushchenko to the presidency, himself a devout Orthodox man and staunch supporter of Patriarch Filaret, will also make the landscape even more interesting.

I will be buying horilka for everyone when Patriarch Lubomyr takes his residence in Kyiv next year.
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 06:16 PM
I'll drink to that. Hey, don't forget to send me a bottle as well.
Lauro
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 07:17 PM
Dear Diak,

Certainly, Patriarch Filaret isn't, as I've heard, the warmest or most likeable person . . .

And it is also true that many bishops of the UAOC and UOC-KP were students of Met. Vladimir Sabodan - and continue to esteem him highly.

I also understand that Met. Vladimir is their constant choice for Kyivan Orthodox Patriarch and I think that we will one day see him as such - and recognized as such by world Orthodoxy.

Personally, I like Patriarch Lubomyr a great deal.

Anyone who can get the Basilians (at least up here) to call him "Patriarch" in the liturgy wins top honours with me!

He knows how to smooth things over and is a real "people" person.

He's like the Administrator here, in other words . . .

Alex
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 07:41 PM
To be honest with you guys, I haven't had the chance to meet any of these church leaders. I just know them from what I've read and heard. I have been following Patriarch Husar's speeches and what not and he seems to be like a very nice and simple person. I can't comment much about Patriarch Filaret but his comments also seem to be very nice as well. I guess archbishop Vsevolod of the UAOC would also make a very nice Patriarch, he seems to get along pretty well with the bishops of the UGCC and everybody seems to respect him as well. I prefer not commenting on metropolitan Slabodan.
Lauro
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 08:07 PM
Dear Lauro,

Yes, of all the church leaders I've mentioned, I've only met Patriarch Husar.

I came close to meeting the Administrator, but that's when we had the blackout . . .

Alex
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 08:15 PM
But who is this Administrator, could he be a church leader? You know, we don't really know much about this guy. He could be a bishop you know or maybe he's really a she and the administrator could be a nun. I guess we'll never know. Why doesn't he or she show himself or herself?
Lauro
Posted By: Anthony Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 08:23 PM
The Administrator is really Batman. It's a secret, so don't tell anyone else.

In Christ,
Anthony

Quote
Originally posted by lpreima:
But who is this Administrator, could he be a church leader? You know, we don't really know much about this guy. He could be a bishop you know or maybe he's really a she and the administrator could be a nun. I guess we'll never know. Why doesn't he or she show himself or herself?
Lauro
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 08:33 PM
Dear Lauro,

If you were an administrator and had to deal with people like me, would YOU want to "show yourself?" wink

Ya ne dumayu tak duzhe . . .

Alex
Posted By: Hritzko Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 08:56 PM
John Paul II had no problem meeting with all religious leaders (UOC-KP, UAOC, Protestant, Muslim, Jews, etc..) during his visit to Ukraine. When meeting with Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchs, Patriarch Lubomyr Lubomyr is following the example set by the holy father.

Diax,
You are correct in stating that Victor Yushchenko has a good chance of being elected president in 2004. As you mention he is a member of the UOC-KP and will likely greatly help inter-religious relations. His wife, Katia, is a member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Chicago) and will likely be instrumental in this effort.
Posted By: incognitus Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 09:13 PM
A warm welcome back to Alex - we love you and the Forum isn't the same without you.
You write that "Patriarch Husar is actually disobeying the RC view that Catholics may only have ecumenical relations with canonical Orthodox churches". Haven't run into any official statement of that view - and it's ridiculous anyway, since Roman Catholicism has no brief to judge the canonical problems of Eastern Orthodoxy.
Did I read you correctly? Are the Basilians in Toronto really commemorating the Patriarch, with that title? Incognitus
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 09:30 PM
Dear Incognitus,

Yes, our big Basilian parish in Thornhill is commemorating the Patriarch - and from what I can see, so is our Basilian bishop-emeritus too!!

It used to be a big, big issue with them, but not no more.

In response to the issue of the RC position, raised also by Hritzko (z kvasnym zubom - my father's favourite pet peeve, it reminds me of him smile ), Rome has officially stated that it recognizes only the canonical Orthodox Church of Ukraine.

The UOC-MP makes a point of underlining such statements on its website at: www.orthodox.org.ua [orthodox.org.ua]

For your reading pleasure!

As for the Pope meeting with Filaret - he met with ALL leaders, including Jews, Muslims and the like.

Yes, it is on that basis that His Beatitude Patriarch Husar has begun regularly meeting and praying with the Patriarch of the UOC-KP and the UAOC.

But the fact remains that Rome has reassured the MP that it only recognizes the MP as the only canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

Again, feel free to examine the above site and the interview with the RC Cardinal.

I don't like it either. But that's just the way it is.

In the year 1988, Rome also issued a public letter assuring the MP that it recognizes ONLY IT as the legitimate heir of St Vladimir's Christian legacy.

I remember the consternation that matter stirred in the Ukie community then. But I didn't keep any written record of it, perhaps one of our patriarchal organizations would have actual written sources establishing this.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 09:36 PM
Dear Diak and (zolotey) Hritzko,

I personally met with Victor Yuschenko in an official capacity during his visit to Toronto.

He is indeed a very pious Orthodox Christian of the UOC-KP and was the only Member to come out to venerate the copy of the Turin Shroud when it was in Kyiv.

But Mr. Yuschenko was incredulous at the political views of our emigre community here in Toronto and elsewhere.

He told me he can't believe the naivete of Ukrainians on this side of the ocean about how they think Ukraine will continue its development.

He himself feels that even if he became president, the aparatus - and aparatchiks - of the left-over system in Ukraine is too entrenched for the kind of significant change Ukraine truly needs economically and politically.

He said that children are being raised by their grandparents in Ukraine, because their parents are working in other countries.

He said that anyone with any professional credentials whatever, would rather work in Portugal than in Ukraine.

He said also that there are no fewer than six liberal parties in Ukraine and five Christian democratic parties.

There is but one communist party however . . .

Etc. Etc. Etc.

And yet he is a man of obvious vision and courage.

After our meeting, I hugged him with tears in my eyes.

Alex
Posted By: Tammy Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 09:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
...
The Russian press referred to them as a kind of motley crew of: "uniates, autocephalists and filaretites."
...
OK, I'm showing my ignorance again... :p I know what "uniates" and "autocephalists" are. What is a "filaretite"? I couldn't find it in the dictionary.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 10:19 PM
Dear Tammy,

(What a nice name!)

Yes, a "Filaretite" ("Filaretovtsi" in Russian) is the pejorative name given to members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate that is headed by Pat. Filaret.

Alex
Posted By: Tammy Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 10:26 PM
Oh. So are they a special brand of autocephalites? biggrin The Russian Orthodox don't like us uniates and filaretites very much, do they? wink
Posted By: OrthoMan Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 10:28 PM
<And Patriarch Husar is actually disobeying the RC view that Catholics may only have ecumenical relations with canonical Orthodox churches.

Ultimately, blood is thicker than water.>

================

So once again Ukrainian nationalism, politics, and ethnic hatred takes precedence over everyone and everything. Even if it means disobedience to the one who is recognized by you as the 'Vicar of Christ', 'Supreme Pontiff', 'Universal Bishop over the entire chruch', and infallible to boot!

Hey, why even have religious Hierachy if one doesn't have to obey them when it comes to nationalism and blood lines. Which seems to take precedence over the canons, as well as moral and political issues.

Ever stop to think why the the Pope and the Vatican issued the edict regarding having ecumenical relations with only CANONICAL Orthodox? The examples given always leave out some very important facts. But we've already gone over the history of Denisenko before.

So I guess it doesn't matter that he was a KGB collaborator, who as a Bishop, should have been a celibate Monk, but had a wife and kids stashed away, who accepted his forced retirement and pledged before God with his hand on the Gospel to uphold the verdict given him and to not start a schism within the church, and then turned his back on it -

----------

Filaret's story is quite typical for the stormly post-soviet period. This prominent church leader, after the election of Alexis II instead of him as patriarch of Moscow and all-Rus by the local council of 1990 contrary to all expectations, began a harsh opposition against his former colleagues in the Holy Synod. Originally repenting and swearing on the Gospel not to conduct schismatic activity he almost immediately upon his return from Moscow organized, with the support of the former president and father of Ukrainian independence, Leonid Kravchuk (some reports indicated their had nieghboring dachas), an independent church structure, the Ukrainian Orthodox church (Kiev patriarchate). At this time all the financial means of the Kievan metropolia, the richest in the RPTs, was transferred to his hands. Filaret was immediately recognized at the legal head of the Orthodox of Ukraine by the Kievan leaders, who announced a new course in the "emancipation from the vestiges of the soviet empire."

The paradox in this is that of all church leaders of the soviet era, really it was Filaret who most actively cooperated with the old authorities. Nowhere was the least church activity so suppressed "from above" as in Ukraine. Numerous cases are known when by Filaret's will priests were forbidden to minister because of church restoration work that was not sanctioned by the metropolitan.

-----------

OrthoMan
Posted By: Brian Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 10:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
[QB
And it's ironic also that the ROCOR would entertain reunification with a hierarchy it believed even 10 or 15 years ago was invalid and heretical (and made profuse public statements to that effect).

[/QB]
Could this be a reflection that the ROCOR Hierarchs have developed in their attitude and realize that the Cold War is over and the Soviet Union is gone and it is time for a reconciliation in the Russian Church?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 10:37 PM
Dear Orthoman,

Yep, that's about the size of it!

Blood is thicker than even holy water . . .

Sorry, but you knew about us reprehensible Ukies before you got involved with us!

Ultimately, those canonical issues will be resolved. And Filaret won't be patriarch forever. He is not the first or only bishop of the MP to have collaborated with the KGB.

But I don't want to argue with you over it.

It could lead to another hissy-fit on my part . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 10:38 PM
Dear Brian,

Let's hope!

What I'm worried about is when the ROCOR finally does reunite with the MP, what will happen to the "unified Orthodox jurisdiction for North America" idea? Any ideas?

Alex
Posted By: OrthoMan Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 11:14 PM
What I'm worried about is when the ROCOR finally does reunite with the MP, what will happen to the "unified Orthodox jurisdiction for North America" idea? Any ideas?

==========

It will be interesting. It may mean that the TOMOS granting autocephally to the OCA will have to be modified with the agreement between the MP & OCA. Because in it, the MP agreed not to accept any additional churches into its fold from other jurisdictions or create new churches. To only administer to those 20-40 churches who requested to remain under the MP at the time of the signing until they opted for entry into the OCA.

It could also mean that a special 'Russian' diocese will be created within the OCA like their current Albanian, Bulgarian, and Romanian diocese which will be administered by the former ROCOR Bishops to take care of the ROCOR people as well as the recent flood of immigrants. The OCA and MP have been discussing the creation of such a diocese for awhile now to administer to the immigrants. Prior to these talks I understand the MP was even willing to supply the OCA with priests as well as a Bishop to adminster to the immigrants. The OCA was not adverse to such a structure. A reunion with ROCOR would not make this necessary.

Either way, there will be those within ROCOR that will not accept either agreement but go off on their own.

It will be interesting.

OrthoMan
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 11:31 PM
Dear Father in Christ Bob,

Yes, and I think the new unified Church will be a powerhouse of spirituality of Orthodox Christianity that will truly light up the West!

Alex
Posted By: Diak Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 11:42 PM
Quote
But we've already gone over the history of Denisenko before.
As we have with the current Patriarch of Moscow, Alexis Ridiger, aka Agent Drozdov. Don't make sound as if Filaret is the only collaborator, Bob. This is ludicrous considering the skeletons in the closet of the current hierarchy of the MP.

Filaret has partially recovered his credibility in my book by openly breaking with the MP who is still led by KGB collaborators, and led by a former documented KGB agent.

Filaret had the courage to break with Drozdov and company. All in the MP higher echelons are likely guilty to some extent of collaboration, including Patriarch Filaret. But numerically nearly all of those still alive who fit this bill are still officially part of the MP.

Fr. Gleb Yakunin has made some interesting discoveries and comments about the personal and historical background of Drozdov before being (predictably) defrocked by the MP hierarchy. But I am not going to get into the same kind of personal ad hominem mud-slinging Bob is trying to throw here.

The issue is much more objective then he portrays.
Kyiv is the historic see of all Rus', and as such is absolutely deserving of autocephaly, if none other than historical reasons.

The real question here is precisely Kyivan autocephaly. Filaret requested it and was denied (predictably) by the MP. He at least had the courage to do so, various personal allegations aside.

History has borne out the inconsistency in the entire issue of "canonical" and "non-canonical". Again I will mention the Patriarchate of Bulgaria. Once non-canonical, then canonical. Basically nothing changed in their theological or liturgical practice. What was rationalized and condemned as "non-canonical" became years later similarly rationalized as "canonical".

As we are not Roman Catholic, Patriarch Lubomyr has every right to associate with the Orthodox hierarchs he wishes to. We do not dictate to the RCs which Orthodox hierarchs they should associate with. The pro-nuncio has mentioned nothing of this to Patriarch Lubomyr over the last few years, not even an informal warning, neither privately or publically as far as any press, religious or secular, have reported.

Again, the entire issue of canonical/non-canonical depends on which side of the river you are looking from. The MP just doesn't pass the laugh test on this issue considering they were a breakaway from Kyiv at one time.

And Ukrainian politics aside, look at the historical situation with the Bulgarian patriarchate and others when considering the merits of the non-canonical/canonical argument.

I would think very much less of Patriarch Lubomyr if he just followed everything by rote that the RCs came up with.

But wait - there are official relations between the Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Vatican. Only "canonical" churches?

I think it is extremely ironic that any Orthodox as Bob here would comment on who our churches have ecumenical relations with. We would not presume anything of the sort with them. If local churches really means anything, as the Orthodox say it does, ecumenical relations should be the business of the local church. And if they are not part of the MP, why is it even an issue with those who are in the MP?

National churches are business as usual in Orthodoxy. It seems to be different when considering Ukraine, which both Russians and Ukrainians agree is not Russia. Autocephaly for an Orthodox country of that size should be obvious when considering some of the very small autocephalous churches extant in Orthodoxy.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/25/03 11:49 PM
Dear Diak,

One of these days I'm going to break down and take some formal theological courses.

That way I'll sound more intelligent on matters relating to canonicity, liturgiology and angelology.

God bless you!

Diak
Posted By: Hritzko Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 12:04 AM
Dear Orthodox-Catholic,

You said:
"In the year 1988, Rome also issued a public letter assuring the MP that it recognizes ONLY IT as the legitimate heir of St Vladimir's Christian legacy.

I remember the consternation that matter stirred in the Ukie community then. But I didn't keep any written record of it, perhaps one of our patriarchal organizations would have actual written sources establishing this."

The RCC curia did in fact assure the ROC of this on several occassions in 1988, perhaps because of the fact that the Holy Father had plans to hoast thousands of diaspora Ukrainian Catholics that summer at the Vatican as part of the year long celebrations marking the millenium of Christianity in Ukraine (Kyiv-Rus). The ROC claimed that only it had the right to cellebrate this event.

During the cellebrations 8,000 people showed up for the youth rally alone at St-Sophia (UGCC church in Rome). The pope, our Patriarch, all our diaspora UGCC bishops, about 15 cardinals, and many other dignitaries were in attendance. At one point in the festivities our 60 member band from Montreal in unison with the 100 member choir from the United Kingdom decided to play/sing 'A prayer for our Patriarch'(Molytvu za Patriarha). The crowd sang with us and the holy father stood until we finished. I thought that the matter would end there, but instead the holy father then asked all the hierarchs (both rites) to join him in a short prayer over the crypt of our Patriarch-confessor Josyf Slipyj which was located at that time under St-Sophia. When the hierarhs emerged the celebrations then resumed. John Paul II didn't seem to have a problem with acknowledging our right to celebrate this historic event, our patriarch, or our church.

For that matter neither did the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. Part our youth group (100 people) travelled on to Turkey to meet with the Greek Orthodox Patriarch. Although I myself did not participate, by all accounts he was very welcoming and blessed the participants of that historic occassion.
Posted By: OrthoMan Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 12:09 AM
<Filaret has partially recovered his credibility in my book by openly breaking with the MP who is still led by KGB collaborators, and led by a former documented KGB agent.

Filaret had the courage to break with Drozdov and company.>

Filaret did not leave the MP on his own as you imply. He was excommunicated and defrocked! Big difference Diak!

Patriarch asked forgiveness for his past associations. Can you show me where Denisenko did the same? Denisenko was also a KGB member but are we to overlook that because of his bloodline?

Patriarch Alexi does not have a family stashed around in the back ground, Denisenko does.

But we have already been through this before. And, according to you his Ukrainian blood absolves him of all past sins while Alexi's Russian blood doesn't.

It's all politics, nationalism, and ethnic hatred. Very little about Christ and the Gospel!
What a shame!

OrthoMan
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 12:14 AM
Dear Hritzko,

Yes, I don't question Pope John Paul II's sincerity toward our Church!

At the time, I believe he said that more than one Church may celebrate its descent from St Volodymyr the Great and the Kyivan tradition of Christianity.

And it wouldn't be the first time the pope said one thing and the Vatican curia said another.

I'm only calling attention to the curialists and what they do in the name of the Vatican (and in the name of the pope).

Frankly, I would gladly take the Pope into our Church - and they can keep the Vatican!

Alex
Posted By: Diak Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 12:27 AM
Quote
But we have already been through this before. And, according to you his Ukrainian blood absolves him of all past sins while Alexi's Russian blood doesn't.

It's all politics, nationalism, and ethnic hatred. Very little about Christ and the Gospel!
What a shame!

OrthoMan
Bob, you continue to wave this flag about hatred. I said nothing about absolving Filaret's past sins, I don't have the ecclesial status necessary for that. And I admitted that noone has clean hands in the MP hierarchy, from Drozdov/Patriarch Alexei on down. And where or when did Alexei ever publically renounce his ties with the Soviet regime? That is simply NOT the issue, and I will not let you sidetrack this discussion with your subjective and emotional arguments.

Filaret's desire for the historic autocephaly of the Church of Kyiv and his courage to act accordingly in conscience to a certain extent have changed my level of respect for him.

I would think much less of Filaret if he continued to blindly serve a Patriarchate that appears to have no ecclesial respect for its mother See. Very little about Christ and the Gospel? With the lack of respect and disdain for its Mother See I could say the same about the MP.

I said in two posts, all politics aside, this is about autochephaly. You once again have tried to sidestep the objective issue with subjective sui generis allegations of hate, hate, hate, politics, hate, etc. The objective issues of autocephaly have historical and ecclesial merit for the Church of Kyiv.

It really does comes down to autocephaly. Kyiv is the mother church of all Rus', and historically as such deserves autocephaly. The situation with Bulgaria as I mentioned above historically demonstrates there is no consistent historical approach in Orthodoxy to canonical/non-canonical churches.

National churches historically are the basis of Orthodoxy. Why not Ukraine? It is much larger than most autocephalous churches in the world.

And since Filaret is no longer part of the KP, again I ask why this is such an issue with you, Bob? It would be as if I were to make ridiculous emotional statements and allegations about the Anglicans, since I don't consider them to be part of my church anymore.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 12:30 AM
Whew!

It's a good thing I read closer . . .

All this talk of Alex-ei . . .

I was getting ready to ask for everyone's pardon again . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: OrthoMan Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 02:24 AM
Diak:

I have no problem whatsoever with an autocephallous Ukrainian church as long as it's created according to the Church canons, led by a canonical hierach rather than a defrocked bishop, AND IS ORTHODOX IN MORE THAN NAME!

OrthoMan
Posted By: AntonI Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 09:39 AM
I did make my promise not to take part in any Ukraninian discussion because they happen to be extremely nationalistic but I will break it off this once. "Patriarch" Filaret is not a cleric; he is simply a layman who has been excommunicated by Moscow. That is well known and accepted by the whole of the Orthodox Church. A few months ago, one of his "bishops" tricked his way into meeting with the Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africe who promptly told him he would have nothing to do with him and urged him to return to Metropolitan Vladimir. And by all accounts from my great-uncle, +Vladimir is a most pious and holy man who is the most worthy to lead the Ukranians, both in autonomy and eventual autocephalousy.

So enough with the open-season on the ROC and +Alexis...the late +Antony was vehemently against Filaret and his ilk and wasn't very keen on Rome either...will you end up calling him names as well?

Anton
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 10:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by OrthoMan:

And, according to you his Ukrainian blood absolves him of all past sins while Alexi's Russian blood doesn't.
Patriarch Alexy doesn't have a Russian blood line, he's an Estonian of German decent...

Christian
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 11:50 AM
All I know is that the Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate is growing and the MPs are losing ground. This is a fact, this is not fiction. The KPs are today larger than many "cannonical" Patriarchal churches that exist today around the globe. I believe that things will change with the next presidential elections in Ukraine. Am I talking about politics? Of course I am. Does this make a difference? Of course it does. The UOC-MP is backed by the old communists who are pro-Russian, this is another fact and I guess this is because they speak the same language, if you know what I mean and this again is politics.
For millions of Ukrainians, not thousands or hundreds of thousands but millions Patriarch Alexis is the head of the Russian Orthodox Church and nothing more. If he wants to have Russian parishes in Ukraine that's ok, but they should be Russian churches. Let's take a look at another issue: The bishops of the UOC-MP have no Ukrainian parishes to visit in the diaspora. I wonder why, if this is the case are they really Ukrainian? Can they be considered as so? I honestly don't think so.
Lauro
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 01:03 PM
Dear Bob,

Yes, no one can deny that the canonical issue needs to be resolved in this matter and I believe it will be.

Ukraine has always been between East and West, crushed and then seeking, by various means, to try and resurrect and protect itself.

This will take time as people in Eastern Europe are still shaking the cobwebs from their minds in the wake of the fall of the communist Russian empire.

The now canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the diaspora are also striving to establish a canonical and autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchate in Ukraine.

It will happen.

Alex
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 04:17 PM
Dear All:

How is it that what started as a positive thread about the moving of the seat of the (soon to be remaned) UGCC to Kyiv has turned into a re-hash of the cannonical status of the "other" Ukrainian churches?

Sheesh!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 04:41 PM
Dear Hal,

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum!! smile

Alex
Posted By: Anthony Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 04:42 PM
One word: OrthoMan

Quote
Originally posted by Halychanyn:
Dear All:

How is it that what started as a positive thread about the moving of the seat of the (soon to be remaned) UGCC to Kyiv has turned into a re-hash of the cannonical status of the "other" Ukrainian churches?

Sheesh!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 07:41 PM
Dear Friends,

The problem is that if Ukrainian Orthodox would wait for Moscow to voluntarily approve of a Patriarchate for Kyiv, they would be waiting a long time.

How is what the Ukrainian Orthodox did with the KP generally different from the way in which other Orthodox Patriarchates have been established in history?

I mean the Serbian, Russian and others?

They declared a patriarchate for themselves and then waited sometimes for centuries before world Orthodoxy recognized it.

And, in all cases I believe, such a declaration meant independence/autocephaly from Constantinople etc.

When the Eritrean Church separated from the Ethiopian Church, the Coptic Pope could have argued with them or got involved in jurisdictional polemics.

Instead, he consecrated a Patriarch for the Eritrean Church and ended any problems before they developed.

What is happening to the Ukrainian Orthodox in Ukraine by world Orthodoxy is something that has repeated itself before - Ukrainian Orthodoxy being bullied by Moscow with the rest of the smaller Hellenic Orthodox churches looking on in silence or with tacit approval.

But hopefully this will be resolved in future.

Alex
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 07:45 PM
If Ukrainians want their own Patriarchate maybe they should turn to Moscow, who has experience in this matter.

So what is the going price for a Patriarchate these days? A few Dachas in Crimea? Shares in business interests? Positions in government? Or will 30 pieces of silver suffice?

Shall we take up a collection?

Andrij
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 08:16 PM
Moscow will never recognize a Ukrainian Patriarchate, because they need Kyiv to maintain their own. Even if world Orthoxy does recognize a Ukrainian Patriarchate and pressures Moscow to accept the facts, I doubt very much that Moscow ever will.
Lauro
Posted By: Mexican Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/26/03 11:28 PM
I recall that in Bulgaria during the IX century, there was a struggle for autocephaly and independence, very similar to what is happening in Ukraine. At that time the "Ottoman" Patriarchate was not willing to give any concession to the Bulgarian Church, so they tried everything to become autocephalous, and as Rome was willing to provide them an independent Church, the Bulgarian Catholic Exachate emerged with popular support.

But when the Russians showed interest in supporting a Bulgarian Autocephalous Church and when finaly the EP formed a separate Exarchate, the majority of the people returned to the Orthodox Church and the Greek-Catholic Church became an insignifican minority again.

So, if Orthodoxy is thereatened by a new Catholic Patriachate in Kyiv, it's because of Moscow's reluctancy to accept an autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Ukraine, and the EP's lack of moral courage to say no to Moscow, and solve the current schisms among the Ukrainian Orthodox.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 12:41 AM
Hold it! Hold it!

I don't check on you guys for a couple of days and you sneak a Major See from Lviv to Kyiv?

What's going on?

Has this been confirmed?

If so, sounds great! Let's see how the Moscovites react!

Many years to Patriarch Lubomyr!

Shalom,
Memo.
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 02:23 AM
Dear Memo:

There's nothing sneaky about it. They've been bulding a church and a residence and an administrative center in Kyiv for some time now.

As for confirmation, I'm not sure what you mean. Confirmed as in "it's going to happen" or confirmed in the sence that Rome thinks it can stop it isf they withold permission.

Yours,

hal
Posted By: FAW Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 02:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by KO63AP:
So what is the going price for a Patriarchate these days? A few Dachas in Crimea? Shares in business interests? Positions in government? Or will 30 pieces of silver suffice?

Shall we take up a collection?

Andrij
Perhaps Ukraine could buy back the Metropolitan See from Moscow for the same price Moscow bought it from Constantinople . . .

300 sables of gold!

:p
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 02:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Mexican:
I recall that in Bulgaria during the IX century, there was a struggle for autocephaly and independence, very similar to what is happening in Ukraine. At that time the "Ottoman" Patriarchate was not willing to give any concession to the Bulgarian Church, so they tried everything to become autocephalous, and as Rome was willing to provide them an independent Church, the Bulgarian Catholic Exachate emerged with popular support.

But when the Russians showed interest in supporting a Bulgarian Autocephalous Church and when finaly the EP formed a separate Exarchate, the majority of the people returned to the Orthodox Church and the Greek-Catholic Church became an insignifican minority again.
Absolutely correct Mexican (except you mistyped the century - was the XIXth). Of the estimated 60,000 who entered into communion with Rome, more than 75% returned to Orthodoxy once the Orthodox established a jurisdiction for them. Doing so was seen as responsive to nationalistic demands, thereby trumping the short-lived advantage gained by the Catholics. And it was 50 yrs+ before the number of Byzantine Catholic Bulgarians was again sufficient to merit re-establishment of the Exarchial See.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Diak Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 04:39 AM
Quote
Diak:

I have no problem whatsoever with an autocephallous Ukrainian church as long as it's created according to the Church canons, led by a canonical hierach rather than a defrocked bishop, AND IS ORTHODOX IN MORE THAN NAME!

OrthoMan
OK, so where and when did Filaret preach heresy? Commit a liturgical sacrilege? Unfortunately this situation is like Estonia. It has nothing to do with faith, with the Gospel, only with following the MP party line and subjective determinations of "canonicity".

Previous attempts at "canonical" autocephaly for the historic mother see of all Rus, Kyiv, have met with failure. The reality is much more objective than criteria of "canonicity". Kyiv deserves autocephaly. Moscow has denied it. Filaret had the courage to do what he did and restore Kyivan autocephaly.

Moscow would certainly have been considered similarly "non-canonical" when it created a parallel church to Kyiv. Look what happened over little Estonia. Doesn't seem all that different in retrospect.

I am sorry you do not consider Filaret and the KP Orthodox. I and my hierarchy do. We will have to agree to disagree on that issue.

And I am still unsure why all of the emotional attention to the ecumenical relations between two churches, neither of whom are part of the MP. We consider the KP Orthodox, as we do not subscribe to subjective criteria for "canonicity" (Bulgaria and Estonia cases in point). It has nothing to do with lack of respect. It has to do with a completely subjective and inconsistent approach to this very issue of "canonicity", as well as the deserving autocephaly of the mother Church of Rus'.

We as the UGCC do not presume to dictate the MP's ecumenical stance nor comment on which Orthodox hierarchs ALexei has contact with. It is interesting, as Hal mentioned, that this topic brings so much emotion from those outside both the KP and the UGCC.

Back to Hal's comment to stay on topic, let us all rejoice that the see of Kyiv, the see of Metropolitan Mikhail Rahoza, will be very shortly returned to that same Kyiv, to the mother city of all Rus'.
Posted By: lpreima Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 10:28 AM
I wish I were Husar's neighbor in Kyiv,where I could open up my bedroom window and yell out "Good morning vladyko, and how are you today?"
Lauro
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/27/03 04:18 PM
Dear Lauro,

I believe the King of Scots had a similar tradition.

After the King ate his dinner, a Scot would intone the bagpipes and then shout out: "The King has had his dinner - the rest of the world may now eat!"

Alex
Posted By: Mexican Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/28/03 01:05 AM
As far as I know, the problem of the "Kyivan Patriarchate" is not so much the Orthodoxy or Canonicity of its Church (canonicity can be solved after all), but his lack of moral authority and legitimacy due to the personal scandals of its hierarchs (money stuff, Filaret's personal ambitions, etc).

As history has shown, Moscow will eventualy recognize the autocephaly of a united Ukrainian Church in the future, when less politicaly-biased hierarchs arrive to the Russian church.

An intervention of the EP would be cool because Patriarch Bartholomew would show his power to his critics, and after all nothing can happen. Other Orthodox Patriarchs, P. Teoctist of Romania in particular, are not very happy with HH Alexei II because of his colonialist points of view.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/28/03 08:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Lauro,

I believe the King of Scots had a similar tradition.

After the King ate his dinner, a Scot would intone the bagpipes and then shout out: "The King has had his dinner - the rest of the world may now eat!"
Alex,

I don't know where you come by this. Neither our kings of Scotland nor Ireland had such world views of their own importance. Their objectives were to unite their peoples and keep out (or, as the need inevitably came to pass, drive out) invaders - few had ambitions outside their own domains and those that did never stretched beyond the British Isles.

Neil
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/28/03 01:44 PM
Dear Neil,

Actually, I first heard of this at a lecture on Celtic history at the University of Toronto some years back.

A friend of mine who attended with me (and who now lectures there) came by my office during my last few days there, stood by my door, and said the exact same words.

There was a reading list that came with the lecture that contained this as well.

If I can't find it, I'll ask Lloyd if he can direct me. (We took it at face value at the time and it didn't interest either of us to pursue it. Lloyd is of Scottish background and told me he has read of it as well.)

And it is "King of Scots" not "Scotland" smile .

Alex
Posted By: incognitus Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 11/29/03 12:08 AM
Well within the memory of many of us, the Moscow Patriarchate was accustomed to send then-Metropolitan Philaret (Denysenko) around the world to attend meetings to discuss Orthodox canon law, presenting Kyr Philaret as a great expert on the subject. Incognitus
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 12/05/03 12:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
And it is "King of Scots" not "Scotland"
Alex,

In reference to a single king, it is King of Scots; in collective reference to the Scottish monarchs, they are Kings of Scotland.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Move to Kyev Announced? - 12/05/03 01:02 PM
Dear Neil,

As long as you know that! smile

Alex
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