In 2005 Good Friday falls on March 25th, the Feast of the Annunciation.
We talked about this at the priests� Presbyteral Days in the Poconos for the Eparchy of Passaic. I thought it would be interesting to hear our resident liturgists banter about�..well, what to celebrate and how.
Me, I would move the Annunciation to Palm Sunday, and wear blue, or keep it on Good Friday, and ..wear Blue and black???.......but that�s just me ;-)!

Fr. Michael Sopoliga

From my layman�s understanding of the Byzantine liturgical tradition (and off the top of my head) the two celebrations are woven together as follows:

-On Great Thursday we celebrate the Vespers and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great. At Psalm 140 we take the stichera of the Great Friday, then of the Feast of the Annunciation, Glory, the sticheron of Great Friday and �Now and ever� and the hymn for Annunciation. The readings for the Vespers are taken for the eve of Great Friday and then for the Feast of the Annunciation. The rest of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is taken as usual, but with the two hymns instead of �It is truly proper�.

-Compline would probably be the three odes from the Triodion together with odes from the Annunciation.

-Matins would also interweave the texts of the two days. �God the Lord� would be sung in place of the �Alleluia� with the usual verses, then the Troparion of the Annunciation followed by the �When the glorious disciples were enlightened�. My guess is that the Matins Gospel for the Annunciation would be prayed prior to the First Gospel of Great Friday Matins, and that the hymns would be interwoven throughout the service.

-At the Royal Hours we would take the proper texts first for Great Friday and then for the Annunciation.

-At Vespers on Great and Holy Friday night, at Psalm 140 we would take the stichera for Great Friday, then for Annunciation (in the same format as outlined above). Both sets of readings would be taken and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom would be celebrated in the usual Vesper/Divine Liturgy format. The usual irmos of Annunciation would be taken instead of �It is truly proper�. After the Ambon Prayer and �Blessed be the name of the Lord� the priest would exit the north door with the Shroud and the usual procession would take place.

I wonder if rubrics exist for the color of vestments to be worn at these services? I�d recommend bright vestments from the Vespers and Divine Liturgy of St. Basil up until at least the procession with the Shroud and the entombment at Great Friday night vespers. Blue and black together? Hmm�. That can be reversed to black and blue!

Of course, the bishops will surely provide directives.

...and fasting?

Great and Holy Thursday would be a day of fasting, but oil and wine would be allowed after the Vespers and Divine Liturgy.

Great and Holy Friday would be a day of strict fast, but wine would be allowed after the Vespers and Divine Liturgy.

"Of course, the bishops will surely provide directives."

Not only directives, but actual service folders, so that the unique combination of texts/melodies can be followed by priests, cantors, and faithful.

They should be out by November of 2004.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Yes, the rough drafts have already been prepared and are currently in review. Normally I only automatically provide copies of liturgical books to subscribers but for next year every parish will receive a courtesy �master� copy as well as the opportunity to purchase multiple copies for the cost of the printing.

I hope no one minds a comment from outside the household of this "in house" discussion... but, as should be obvious (as it is to Professor Thompson and the Administrator), the Typicon already gives the rubrics for the celebration of the Annunciation on Great and Holy Friday. That is, there's nothing new here, and certainly nothing to "banter" about.

Priest Thomas

Father Thomas,

Thanks for your post. You are, of course, exactly correct.

I am very much looking forward to next year�s celebration of these two feasts. The Feast of the Annunciation has not fallen on Great and Holy Friday during my lifetime (at least that I remember). I do remember the pastor of the parish I grew up in telling me that Annunciation fell on Holy Friday twice in his lifetime, and that the weaving of the texts was pretty awesome.

Annunciation has fallen on Great and Holy Saturday twice in my memory, 1978 and 1989. In 1989 I prepared special booklets weaving the Vespers of Holy and Great Friday together with the texts of the Annunciation. This book was used in about half of our parishes. At the parish I belong to, it was an incredible, prayerful celebration. The only exception to the typicon the pastor asked was that we sing the Troparion of the Annunciation before the Troparion of Great Friday (�The noble Joseph�.�). After Simeon�s Canticle the priest came before the icon of the Theotokos on the icon screen and we sang the Troparion of the Annunciation. Then he went into the altar and exited the north door with the Shroud and we started singing �The noble Joseph�. Then, after the dismissal of Vespers, with the clergy and servers standing before the Tomb the people sang �O Godbearer Virgin�. People were weeping. Since then I have provided a special booklet weaving together the proper texts (with music) for Annunciation.

Admin

I was, in fact, referring to materials authorized by the Council of Hierarchs to be sent out to the parishes of the Metropolia.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Father Thomas--

Christ is risen!

I have one word to say to you: BRAVO!!!

Thanks!

John

PS. Maybe we should just move to the revised Julian calendar in 2005 and then there won't be anything to "banter" about!

Dear Fr. Michael,

I'm on a bit of a mission to find out how many Eastern Catholics wear black vestments on these most solemn of days. You seem clearly to do. Where did have them made? Is this a common thing in your eparchy?

My second question is for this overall discussion: why do we not simply transfer the Feast to another day during these exceptional years?

Adam

Adam,

Many parishes in the Pittsburgh Metropolia use black on Good Friday, mine included, although I do not have a black set myself.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Because that is not what the Typicon prescribes?

I�m sure that Father Michael will respond and I look forward to his response. It is my understanding that the use of black among the Slavic Byzantines is a latinization from the Polish Roman Catholics.

There is a very interesting logic here. If the Angel hadn�t appeared to Mary and if Mary had not said �Yes!� to God, then there would have been no Birth, no Crucifixion, and no Resurrection. To transfer the feast to another day is to indicate that it is less important than the Great Friday celebration of the Crucifixion. To devalue the feast in such a way irks the logic of Byzantines.

My parish uses black on Great Friday for both the priest and all the hangings and altar coverings. They are worn on Great Saturday as well up until the Gospel when the priest changes to white and removes the black coverings from the Altar and everywhere else.

Adam asked about Eastern Catholics' use of black vestments, and the Admin responded that the use of black among Slavic Byzantines is a latinization from the Polish Roman Catholics. In so doing, I understand the Admin does not restrict the "latinizing" use of black vestments to Slavic Byzatine Catholics.

Black Vestments [oca.org]

Father Deacon John,

I have no information about whether non-Slavic Byzantines (Catholic and/or Orthodox) use black vestments on Great Friday. It�s quite possible. I�ve been to several Greek Orthodox parishes for Jerusalem Matins on Great Friday but just don�t remember the color of the vestments worn by the clergy. I invite our non-Slavic participants to post on the specific customs in their Church.

It is my understanding that the custom in the OCA (the link that you posted) is to also use black vestments on Great Friday. My guess is that this custom in the OCA is not from the Russian usage itself but rather simply a holdover from their Slavic Greek Catholic origins.

In the Russian Orthodox Church, black vestments appear to have replaced crimson red ones for Great Friday in the early 19th century (but starting with Peter the Great in the back in the 17th century after his journeys West). I think the current custom is crimson for Vespers and the Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil on Holy Thursday and then black from the close of that Liturgy until the changing to white at the Holy Saturday Vespers and Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil.

In recent years Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have been switching from black vestments to red vestments for Great Friday services. This seems to have been carried over to funerals, too, although the older custom is white.

Admin

Move to the real Julian Calendar and be done with it!
Christ is risen!
Incognitus

"I'm on a bit of a mission to find out how many Eastern Catholics wear black vestments on these most solemn of days. You seem clearly to do. Where did have them made? Is this a common thing in your eparchy?"

"My second question is for this overall discussion: why do we not simply transfer the Feast to another day during these exceptional years?"

Adam

Dear Adam,
Christ is Risen!
Yes, the one day I wear black vestments is on Good Friday, while I wear red for Lenten services.
Holoviak.com has some nice black vestments, also the nuns in Uniontown, PA can make them, although the ones I wear are very old and missing some of the parts given to me by my dad of blessed memory. To this day I don't know where he got them!

Nonetheless, when I was a kid, I was moved by how my home parish of St. Michael's in Passaic, NJ, was draped in black on Good Friday. You knew this was a special day in the life of the church without anyone uttering a word! Black is the color of mourning.

I understand that the Orthodox use red on festal days and happy celebrations, so the use of red as a "mourning color" is debatable.

I guess I was put in my place by the referral to the Trebnyk for"the rules" but since when do Byzantine Catholics all follow the rules???
No one has yet to mantion the fasting rules for that day. Do we fast on a great feast or celebrate it at Chilli's???

Also, (not directed at you Adam), is everything we do which differs from orthodox Orthodox practice considered a Latinization? Didn't any of our priests, bishops, deacons have a mind of their own, or did they just mimic either side? So much for the argument on patrimony! Obviously, we don't have one.

God bless you Adam!
Fr. M Sopoliga

Dear Father Michael, CHRISTOS VOSKRESE! EVLOGITE! We Belarusian Orthodox also wear black during weekday Lenten services Father...and especially on Great and Holy Friday. On the Sundays of Great Lent we usually wear gold. The Lenten vestments come from NJ. There's a Belarusian matushka in Jackson at St. Mary's (OCA) parish that makes beautiful vestments and is very reasonable.

In the Risen Lord,
+Archimandrite Gregory, Chancellor, Belarusian Eparchy/Ecumenical Patriarchate

My second question is for this overall discussion: why do we not simply transfer the Feast to another day during these exceptional years?

Adam,

Sorry I did not respond to your second question.
I think that when certain feasts of great import fall together, then they need to be celebrated together in the best way possible...though the occurences are rare.
I have no problem with that.

I do find difficulty with Roman Catholics moving Ascension Thursday to Sunday. After all, It's Ascension Thursday right?

Other than that, and I know I will be crucified for my pastoral prudence, but, I have no problem with moving a feast day to a Sunday, to get the most people attending and participating, and learning of the feast.

Who's to certify that Jesus was born on December 25th, or January 6th?
It's the message of the Feast not necessarily the date. This is especially true in the mission parishes, and parishes like mine who cover a 75 mile radius.

I can celebrate the feast day on the day of the week with 5 people, or on the Sunday with 50.
I opt for having more people and moving the feast day.

Good Friday/Annunciation....may be another story....while the Trebnyk gives us the "rules" as mentioned before, perhaps it would be better celebrate it on another day.....unless we join the Orthodox and all go back on the Julian Calendar, named, by the way.....after Our Holy Ecumenical Pontiff Pope Julius! Oh my!

Fr.MJS

Fr. Michael,

Christ is risen!

That is of little consequence. Good Friday and Annunciation can coincide on the Julian Calendar as well.

Tony

Fr. Michael,

Actually it was The Typikon that was referred, not the Trebnyk.

Good point about rules. Rules are for fools.

Tony

Fr Michael,

I don't know if you jest. All scholars attribute the Julian Calendar to another pontiff, the pontifex maximus, Julius Caesar.

Fr. Michael,

Our Administrator has already answered your question re fasting:

Justin

And this year, Annunciation coicided with Great Wednesday on the Julian Calendar.

Dave

Always willing to learn....and be corrected, as I stand, not to mention stirr the proverbial pot.
Thinking is good! Bantering IS better!
Fr.MJS

Ευλογισον Πατερ!

Only if they're responsible and have respect for the Typicon, like Russian Catholics do, unlike most of the Ruthenians. I'm shocked that this would even be a matter for discussion, let alone joking.

False choices. Perhaps the good father is not aware that we celebrate it in church and we fast, although on Annunciation fish is usually allowed, unless it falls during Great Week - in which case it's an oil and wine day.

Where the Ruthenians are concerned, where they differ from Orthodox practice (both old and new rites), YES.

Ah yes, liturgically-aware clergy such as Elko.

Of course, the stupidest thing about the Gregorian calendar and paschalion is that it means Kyriopascha can never happen. And if anybody needs to ask what that is...

Christ is risen!

Following the Gregorian calendar and using the Western Paschalion Kyriopascha should still be possible as it is using the Julian calendar and the Eastern/Julian reckoning of Pascha. What does not allow it is the mixed calendar of following Julian for Pascha and Gregorian for the fixed feasts. But, that is another issue.

Yes, let's jump on our dead Bishops graves.
Yes, let's be so serious, that all the joy of faith is extracted.
Yes, let's talk about the stupidest, I mean "most stupid" things of any church, not to mention having a holier than though attitude. Icing on the cake.


Fr. Michael Sopoliga

"Better to light one candle than curse the darkness."

The Christopher's motto

I don't think thise matter should be considered trivial nor to be straining at gnats. The Holy Fathers of the first council set the dating of Pascha for a reason (and the gregorian dating does indeed violate canons). The Typikon also should not be ignored as it weaves together the great mystery of slavation. Remember that the Lord did warn we need to be competant in the small matters as well.

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Fr. Michael,

Let's, please, jump on the graves of our dead bishops. The same who fought long and hard to protect and preserve the Faith, the same who laboriously compliled the various editions of the Typikon because it was so important to have UNITY.

The joy of loving Christ and experiencing the fullness of the faith in liturgical worship must indeed pale beside the joy you feel in scandalizing people with inane questions "Chili's...black and blue vestments?" That isn't joy in the faith, that is goofing off.

MOVING the feasts for audience convenience? it would strike me the greater issue is why are you worried that only 5 people will be in Church on Good Friday? I would devote more care to making sure people knew that on Good Friday they should be IN CHURCH (taking personal time from work and school unless essential employees)to focus on Christ, and the Cross.

"Holier than thou" seems to be your rallying cry for anyone with a more traditional viewpoint than your own, Father. I don't think you are considering how your words are striking people.

Gaudior, waiting for you to say "When YOU'VE been a parish priest for 25 years THEN you can criticize!"

Gaudior,

Moving feasts has been done for reasons other than trying to get the crowds to church. Even the Orthodox Church moves the feast of Saint George, if I am not mistaken. I know the current Roman Catholic practice is to move the annunciation if it falls on certain day - alas I do not have acces to my old RC liturgical books so I can't verufy the specifics of this. Although there is a movement in some RC circles of moving the Ascension to the following Sunday in order to have more people attend the feast. This type of moving I personally find to be atrocious, and I fear the fathers would very disapointed to see it.

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Theodore,

Some moving of saint's days from the day of repose is AGREED ON AS LAID OUT IN THE TYPIKON, when such a day would fall on another more solemn day or feast. St. George is an example of a situation where the lamentable calendar issue crops up. The Feast is not moved on the Julian Calendar, but the Gregorian calendar and "Revised Julian Calendar" churches started shoving the Feast around because the hymnography is Ressurrectional, and under the Gregorian or Revised Julian calendars it CAN fall during the Great Fast or Holy Week, where it clashes with the mood....so...it gets shuffled...on the New Calendar...which is just wrong, as it eliminates fasts, Kyriopascha,(unless you are in Estonia or Finland) and results in such shuffling as this.

Again, though, the Typikon allows this wrong-headedness, and it isn't the decision of a SINGLE priest saying it is inconvenient.

Gaudior, saying, BRING BACK THE JULIAN CALENDAR...

Kyriopascha (the coming together of the Feasts of the Annunciation (March 25th) and Pascha (the Feast of the Resurrection) according to the Gregorian calendar occurred most recently in 1883, 1894, and 1951. It will occur again in 2035, 2046, and 2103. The coming together of these feasts occurs just as often on the Gregorian calendar as it does on the Julian calendar. Keep in mind that the Gregorian calendar is just the Julian calendar without the 13 days delay and with a fix to keep it from slipping.

Gaudior,

Christ is risen!

The Russian Synodal Slavonic Typikon of 1896 allows for the Feast of the Great Martyr George to fall as early as Great Friday. Your statement "[t]he Feast is not moved on the Julian Calendar" is incorrect as is "the Gregorian calendar and 'Revised Julian Calendar' churches started shoving the Feast around because the hymnography is Ressurrectional." The Typikon regulates such matters.

Since the Greeks celebrate St. George as well, and on the same date, there is no way the same is not contemplated in the Greek Typika.

Tony, thinking Gaudior should check her sources more carefully.

Administrator,

Christ is risen!

This has been stated already on this thread and a thread that you closed recently. The recently closed thread included some severe allegations about the Gregorian calendar.

I sincerely do not understand the vitriol about the calendar.

Tony

Christ is Risen!
Truly he is Risen!

Indeed so, but can never occur on the Revised Julian calendar that all Orthodox Churches but Finland and Estonia are on...

Revised Julian is just a mistake...

Gaudior, still saying calendar needs reversion!

"Back in black"... No, I have a point to make about vestments, not an AC-DC album...

Black was introduced in the Russian Church at St. Petersburg for the funeral of Peter II in 1821. After that it became widespread for funerals (except Bright Week of course) and the most penitential days of the Great Fast.

While the use of black is certainly a borrowing from the Latins, it is one borrowing I think is appropriate, and has come to be commonplace even in some Orthodox parishes. It is a stark color, and certainly fits the "dark" general vestment category.

Gaudior,

You are most wrong when you cite "on the Revised Julian calendar that all Orthodox Churches but Finland and Estonia are on." Most of the Orthodox world is on the Julian calendar all the way. The Russian Orthodox Church (MP) is all old calendar. (The ROC/MP is the largest Orthodox Church in the world.) Let's not forget Athos and Sinai and Jerusalem and Serbia. What about most of Slovakia and all of Poland AFAIK. And how about the EP's jurisdictions here like the Ukrainians and ACROD?

No, most of the Orthodox world can still have Kyriopascha. Those of us on a mixed calendar cannot.

Tony

The Western Paschalion does not violate the Canons of the Ecumenical of Nicea. It did not direct Pascha to be celebrated after the Jewish Passover but, because the Jews changed their calculation for Passover, it directed them to ignore the Jewish computation for the date of Passover.

There is a very good article on the OCA website by By Archbishop PETER of New York and New Jersey titled Concerning the Date of Pascha and the 1st Ecumenical Council on the computation of Pascha. [oca.org] An excerpt: �The refusal to celebrate Pascha "with the Jews" (meta ton Ioudaioun) meant that, in the ancient canonical texts, we were not to celebrate this feast by basing its date on the method of calculation of the Jews. But, contrary to what was believed later, this refusal in no way was aimed at avoiding an accidental celebrating of Pascha and Passover together.

Tony,

Indeed, He is risen!

I don�t understand it either. Neither calendar is holy. Both are secular calendars. One has a fix to keep it from slipping and really just returns it to where it was at the time of Julius Caesar. Nicea didn�t get into how to calculate the equinox. It just gave general guidance so that everyone would celebrate on the same day.

Admin

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Tony

Source: A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar, by Hieromonk Cassian, Chapter 9.
St. George is specifically referred to in a footnote there, Tony. If this source is incorrect, then mea culpa.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/calsci_ch9.aspx

As for my other error, I meant that to read: of the NON- Old Calendar Jurisdictions, ONLY Finland and Estonia can celebrate Kyriopascha, as they are wholly on the GREGORIAN calendar. The rest of the Orthodox world is eother Old Calendar, or Revised Julian. Old Calendar jurisdictions certainly do celebrate that wonderful holiday. Thank you for correcting that.

Gaudior, in gratitude.

Administrator,

After having written "I sincerely do not understand the vitriol about the calendar," I decided it needed clarification. The calendar change was not implemented in a proper way in many places, including GC Hungary. Certainly in Greece the calendar was and is a divisive issue. In those places I can understand the lasting hurt.

However, where we live, in the West mostly surounded by Western Christians, I think it is a different story. Also, there are way too many false allegations hurled about concerning the suitedness of the Gregorian calendar. These simply are that, false.

The issue of the mixed calendar is another matter altogether and to confuse the two is not helpful.

Tony

It should also be considered that three Orthodox synods condemned the Gregorian calendar. Thus churches that are truly canonical would never violate these canons and use the Gregorian (or Revised Julian) calendar,

Gaudior,

Here is what I think you refer to "[a] similar thing occurs with regard to the Feast of Saint George the Trophy-Bearer, April 23. When April 23 is observed according to the Church Calendar, it always falls within the Pentecostarion period (and in those instances when Pascha falls on April 23, 24, or 25, the Typicon transfers the Feast of Saint George to Bright Monday, i.e., one to three days later). If you read the footnote carefully it says clearly "(and in those instances when Pascha falls on April 23, 24, or 25, the Typicon transfers the Feast of Saint George to Bright Monday, i.e., one to three days later)." All it takes is what is commonly called the process of elimination. If Pascha falls on April 25th, when is Great Friday? April 23rd as I said above.

The Typikon allows it to fall on the only day it can, April 23rd. If that is from Great Friday to Pascha its celebration is moved as the note references above. This has nothing to do with the new calendar. Just read the footnote carefully.

Tony

Dear Theodore,

Christ is risen!

Which synods were those?

Tony

Tony,

Truly He is risen!

I'm suprised they don't teach these things at St. Vladimir's Seminary?!

Anyway the three synods in question were all in Constantinople in the years 1583, 1587, and 1593.

Oh, believe me, if I ever did locate Elko's grave, I'd be tempted to do more than jump - this is bearing in mind that when I found Doge Enrico Dandalo's grave in Hagia Sophia, I spat on his tombstone

There is a good reason why some departed clergy are referred to as being "of venerable memory" and some aren't. I have no doubt plenty of latinisers (such as Elko) and typicon-murderers (such as Violakis and Metaxakis) should be referred to as being "of excerable memory".

It is possible to be serious as well as joyful.

Matters of the typicon are not icing on the cake. One cannot substitute plaster of paris for sugar in a cake and still expect the result to work.

The servant who is faithful in small matters will be faithful in great ones as well.

Theodore,

Your punctuation leaves me confused, but I will respond nevertheless. Most likely these synods were covered in a history class.

I wish I could say that I recall everything that has ever been taught to me, but I am not so arrogant. And if I meet someone who claims to have total recall, I wont believe him.

Thanks for the reply!

Tony

Tony,

I am not exactly sure to what you are referring. If it is the use of a question mark and an exclamation point, that is commonly used to add an element of shock in a question. In this case it was used sarcasticly.

Since I have never claimed to posses total recall I am not sure what exactly you are talking about here. I was simply noticing a trend by new calendarists to claim that there are no canons saying that the Gregorian calendar may not be used. I wonder if the fact that this is often overlooked is simply a reflection of poor scholarship or a deliberate act? Besides the synods in question there are several letters and statements by various Orthodox bishops against the Gregorian calendar that are of interest, even if they do not carry the authorative weight of a synod.

Christos Voskrese!

I believe regardless of whatever opinion we may have that we should respect the priesthood. Mr. Yong please respect our priests! It is nice to have priestly commentary on this Forum; if you have "beef" keep it to your self--at least word your responses in such a way that would express a polite nature. Regarding what Father said: if you knew the humor of Rusyn priests you would of been able to get it, ok. I do not think any of us would want to lose Father as a source of wisdom and yes, hunky humor.

I am saying this as a sinner, indeed chief among them, but I have seen many priests leave Forums for less. Let's keep priests on this Forum!

Sincerely in Christ,


Robert Horvath

Dear Robert,

You are right on with your analysis of my post, and other posts. "They don't get it."
Some people take themselves too seriously. Something I got over a long time ago.
In the grand scheme of things, only God will judge us.

Which brings me to a sad decision.
Yours is my last post on this forum.

You see, I thought the word "forum" meant an "open" discussion of ideas. It should be enjoyable to jump into conversations, to stirr the mind, and the pot, challenge people, and to do it in a lighthearted way at times.
While we may get contentious, I believe that it's because of our passionate love for our church, not because we have some personal unfinished business, or issues with our church.

I believe that the recent crop of posters on this forum, and the forum itself seems to have deteriorated into a group of cynical individuals who, reading these posts, spit on priests graves, make fun of priests years of service, think they know it all, and worse, do not have a sense of humor hunky or otherwise.
Who think that everything Orthodox is good, and everything Byzantine Catholic priests past and present do is bad if it is not Orthodox. I know how duplicitious the Orthodox Church has been in Europe. That's why they (Orthodox)have no unity among themselves let alone the world as we do in the Catholic Church. Is that what we should embrace? Not as long as I'm alive.

But, Robert as for me, I do not need this kind of abuse.
I'll stick to my global evangelism on EWTN. My weekly live radio talk show on Sunday mornings, and doing what I feel is the best for the growth of my parish, even if I had to move Easter Sunday to do it! There, one more shot across the bow for these pernicious posters. Too bad, I won't be around to read them.

Leaving this mutual admiration society, I remain, in the Risen Christ,
Fr. Michael Sopoliga,
yes a priest celebrating his 25th anniversary on May 20th not that that means anything to anyone on this forum.

Christos Voskrese!

Father, Bless!

Dear Father Michael:

Could I use reverse psychology by telling you to go to possibly get you to stay?

Father, no matter what you do: thank you for your time here, but come back when the Admin possibly posts some Forum rules on *how* to treat our clergy respectively. You know Father I don't want you to leave, but Father might you take some time and think about it? I know myself included really enjoy your posts; you minister to Byzantine Catholics who may be away from their Churches for whatever reason.

I want to offer Many Years to you on your Anniversary! Looking forward to many more of your posts...

Thank you for your time and for your gracious spirit.

In the Mother of the Light,


Robert Horvath

Anyone who would do such a thing is either ignorant or a fool. What a horrible witness of Christ.

Father Michael,

Although I don't believe we have ever crossed swords in posting, I am one who has not always been a fan of yours in some respects, particularly as regards what I see as a less than open and welcoming stance toward our Orthodox brothers and sisters and a less than appreciative view of what we can learn from them (as I am concerned when I see Orthodox posters who fail to see the converse - what they can learn from us).

That said, I also see you as a dedicated and concerned servant of God who has meaningfully contributed to this Forum and to evangelization on the part of the Eastern Catholic Churches. I agree with you wholeheartedly in your view of what this Forum is intended to be. I'm not going to repeat in detail here what I've recently said in other threads and on another Eastern website about the Forum, but the type of attitudes that you describe runs entirely counter to all that has ever been said as a selling point for this venue - that it is a place of respectful, open discussion, where dissension from individual and even prevailing views is taken, but in a charitable and respectful manner.

I would urge you to remain for what you can bring to the Forum and what, too, you can learn from it. I remain convinced that, its faults aside, it continues to be a unique place and one in which Easterners - Catholic and Orthodox - and those who have an interest in the East - Latin or Protestant - can meet to educate one another, learn from each other, amuse at times, edify at others, and pray together for each other and for the eventual reunion of our Churches before God.

I believe that, in the long run, the dust will settle, once again, and the Forum continue on the mission that it has always had.

Regardless of what decision you reach, I congratulate you on the upcoming anniversary of your priestly service and pray that God grant you many more years in health and in His service and that your parish community continue to thrive.

Many years,

Neil

Edward,

While I have been posting here for a relatively short time, I've been reading here long before that. Although I haven't bothered to go back and locate them, I am mindful of having seen the occasional post from you in times past that was irreverent in a similar sense to that of which you complain here about the posts of another. I suspect that you would have taken offense to any such barbed reply directed at you in those instances.

More importantly, I think it an example of youthful immaturity at its worst to compare the effects of latinization by Archbishop Nicholas, of blessed memory, to the horrific indignities that transpired under the leadership of Doge Enrico. And, yes, I spoke of Kyr Nicholas as of blessed memory; he is as far as we know, as are all who went before. The times in which they lived were different than those in which we are presently and we can only presume, without evidence to the contrary, that they did what they did in the belief that it was appropriate in the time and place. We may regret the choices they made, but it is not our place to judge them.

As a member of the Russian Church, you are in a particular position to see and understand the compromises that some, in your Church's Orthodox counterpart, made to reach accomodation - not with a parallel liturgical culture - but with civil authorities - and the injustices and perversion of religion that came about. When you look at Archbishop Nicholas' actions, decisions, and - yes - the damage that he did to his Church, you should see that it has no basis for comparison.

In my personal opinion, you owe an apology to our Ruthenian brothers and sisters for your unkind remarks about a man who will most assuredly never be canonized, but who deserves to at least be remembered and acknowledged as the Protopriest that he was.

Many years,

Neil

XB!

Mr Horvath,

I don't recall being disrespectful of the priesthood of any particular priest on the forum, not unless disagreeing with a priest's positions on matters clearly set forth in the Typion counts as disrespect. I *did* ask his blessing at the beginning of my posts, and that particular posture does remind me not to be nasty. If there is anything wrong in what I have said, point it out. Otherwise...

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Caro Administratore,

Pace! I was being over-the-top when I mentioned spitting on graves. I certainly would not spit or jump on the late Abp Elko's grave. However, I must point out that it was not I who first petulantly brought up the matter of jumping on anybody's graves.

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So here I submit an apology to my Ruthenian brethren and sistren for having been extremely unkind in speaking of a hierarch of theirs, whom I now realise many respect greatly even if they didn't agree with all of his actions. I earnestly repent of those hurtful words.

In reparation, I shall go say the 7 Penitential Psalms for myself and the Trisagion prayers for Archbishop Nicholas Elko - I believe that should go further than anything I can say on this forum.

On the subject of "reponsibility" "respect for the Typicon"" vs. lack thereof...

here is interesting portion of a very recent, timely post from an Orthodox priest on Cineast:

"...Here are two informative articles which suggest that part of the genius of the Eastern Church which should not be lessened or dismissed is a capacity for liturgical development, adaptation, and indeed, reform. It would be a tragedy if Eastern Catholics thought to express their fidelity to Orthodox doctrine by emulating the "super-Orthodox" in their undiscerning zeal for the monastic typikon.

http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/Paul-Meyendorff/Articles/liturgical-path.html

http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/zernov-reform.html "

Edward if you go back to your post to Father Michael you will see plenty of sarcasm and sterotype that is disrespectful not only to Father but to all Ruthenians. I am at least glad that you have withdrawn your remarks about Bishop Elko.

changed my mind....