One may think the best way to introduce a vesperal or matins service is to do bits and pieces or maybe a similar service but much shorter.

I disagree.

We have TWO precedents where introducing a full vesperal-like service and full matins-like service has been successful: (1) the Presanctified Liturgy and (2) the Office of Christian Burial.

For vespers, many of our parishes have introduced the Presanctified Liturgy. Isn't this a 'vesper' service with communion? Take a close look at the structure and content of this liturgy. I don't think anyone has introduced only bits and pieces of it into their parish community. How dare they? Passaic published and introduced a booklet with all the propers (with musical notation in it) which has made cantoring it much easier and fun. For those doubting the possibility of introducing a full vesper service, I only ask that they reflect on how the Presanctified Liturgy has been received.

For Matins, we are all familiar with the Office of Christian Burial, especially the service celebrated in the temple the morning of the burial. Take a close look at the structure and contents of this particular service. Though many celebrate only half of it with liturgy, it is basically a Matins service! It may be a slight stylized version of it, but the fact remains: it is a Matins service with a Kanon hymn. Of course, we all celebrate some stylized version of Resurrection Matins ...

We wonder how the canonical services of vespers and matins can be introduced into our parishes. I suggest that we reflect on how we celebrate our funeral service and Presanctified Liturgy first. If we are already celebrating these two services (the PL on a regular basis during the Great Fast), then we CAN introduce vespers and matins (as separate, stand-alone services onto themselves) successfully.

This is not new stuff, folks.

Unless some parishes are still getting through the Great Fast without celebrating a Presanctified Liturgy or burying their dead without the burial service, then I can understand how introuducing vespers and matins can be difficult, if not impossible.

But celebrating these wonderful services (in addition to uncanonical ones) is possible. There are many success stories out there where celebrating a full Presanctified Liturgy and full Office of Christian Burial service has become old hat. Many parishes have moved on. Parishes have not split over the issue and parishes have not seen their parishioners leave because of it. In fact, our church memmbers have begun to experience more from our treasure chest of liturgical traditions.

God bless!
Cantor Joe Thur

Check the Ordo which is promulgated for all churches of the Ruthenian rescension. What are you referring to by "bits and pieces"? While I agree with the substance of what you have said, all of this is already established by the Ordo and Typikon. Everything is there to justify the restoration of these services. Now we just need to do them.

I do have to ask, what do you mean by a full celebration of Matins? All of the Kathismata? All three Canons as prescribed on Sundays? If you abbreviate any of this, then you are already guilty of an "abbreviated" or "bits and pieces" approach according to your thinking. In for penny, in for a pound.

There are certainly commonalities since Presanctified is Vesperal in nature as you have pointed out. Some people don't even realize that these are related. Again, catechesis also needs to be part of the picture. If people understand these services, they will appreciate and love them even more.

Full Parastas is another issue, as the prevalence of just having a funeral Divine Liturgy is still prevalent. In small parishes, Parastas is not celebrated very frequently because of few funerals and there are perhaps better ways of teaching Matins i.e. Reader's service.

Quit wondering and just do it. If the priest can not or will not celebrate Vespers or Matins, organize a group of people to do Vespers/Matins as a reader's service. But if you do not have the support or even have the opposition of the pastor, that will make this restoration more difficult.

If you have a core group that is committed to assisting regularly at these services, even if it is only a handful, you can make it work. But the formation and education process is also important, as it is not realistic to think a parish with no celebration of services other than Divine Liturgy will on the next Sunday have the "full" celebration of Vespers and Matins.

There have got to be user friendly "How to Put Together Vespers and Matins For Dummies" resources, or it just won't fly. The Typicon is a great resource, but it assumes that the operator already knows what they are doing. Such documents should use a minimum of jargon, and have glossaries for the Greek/Slavonically Impaired. In English.

Vespers isn't rocket science, but there's a joke that God doesn't strike anybody dead for screwing up Matins 'cause even He isn't quite sure how they go. That's obviously an exaggeration, but the point is well taken - at least for parishes starting at Ground Zero.

Sharon

//Check the Ordo which is promulgated for all churches of the Ruthenian rescension. What are you referring to by "bits and pieces"? While I agree with the substance of what you have said, all of this is already established by the Ordo and Typikon. Everything is there to justify the restoration of these services. Now we just need to do them.//

Yes. I was simply referring to the suggestion that the only way to go about introducing vespers and matins is to celebrate a vesperal-liturgy on Saturday evenings and/or the Third Hour before Divine Liturgy on Sundays. My example about the introduction of Presanctified Liturgy is to demonstrate that the introduction of services unto themselves had to be introduced in their fullness. And many parishes did. I agree that everything in the Ordo and Typikon has established the justification of their restoration. My post was directed at the tactical aspect of doing them. They are nothing new to us if we already celebrate Presanctified Liturgy or the Office of Christian Burial. Why do we have to introduce them differently?

//I do have to ask, what do you mean by a full celebration of Matins? All of the Kathismata? All three Canons as prescribed on Sundays? If you abbreviate any of this, then you are already guilty of an "abbreviated" or "bits and pieces" approach according to your thinking. In for penny, in for a pound.//

My post was not to anger you, my friend. My reference to a full celebration has to do with the celebration of such services unto themselves and not always a mere pre-service to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. Many do not celebrate the entire funeral service because they lead immediately into the Divine Liturgy. Excuse the improper choice of terminology. I meant vespers and matins as being celebrated as stand-alone services unto themselves. Many are not comfortable with that; just as many are not comfortable with the ministry of diaconate being an order unto itself rather than being a mere stepping-stone to the presbyterate. Likewise, and I apologize for the poor analogy, many may not be comfortable with vespers and matins being services unto themselves rather than being mere stepping-stones or prelogues to another service. Of course, many will still take short-cuts for �parochial brevity.�

//There are certainly commonalities since Presanctified is Vesperal in nature as you have pointed out. Some people don't even realize that these are related. Again, catechesis also needs to be part of the picture. If people understand these services, they will appreciate and love them even more.//

Hence, my reason for pointing out that fact. We are not dealing with services that are so new to us that we can�t begin to fathom how they will work. We are already doing something akin to them in our own backyard. The fact that we are ALREADY celebrating funeral services and Presanctified Liturgy makes the introduction of what is prescribed in our Typicon (other canonical services) a more possible reality. We ALREADY have the experience and foretaste of these services. Call these services CANONICAL SERVICES 101. Now, that we got the prerequisites under our belt we can move forward.

//Full Parastas is another issue, as the prevalence of just having a funeral Divine Liturgy is still prevalent.//

I don�t ever remember celebrating a funeral Divine Liturgy. But, like you say, that is not the most prevalent practice. That is another issue.

//In small parishes, Parastas is not celebrated very frequently because of few funerals and there are perhaps better ways of teaching Matins i.e. Reader's service.//

I agree. But, again, my post only took into consideration two examples. I hinted at the annual celebration of Paschal Matins as being another. I am sure we can offer more means to teach Matins from our own particular parish experiences. I was only brainstorming with my opening post. I apologize if you thought I was suggesting that those two were the ONLY examples.

//Quit wondering and just do it.//

I like the Nike motto too. Unfortunately, Diak, many do still wonder how such things can be pulled off. If one already celebrates Presanctified Liturgy and Funerals in their parish then there is no need to wonder.

//If the priest can not or will not celebrate Vespers or Matins, organize a group of people to do Vespers/Matins as a reader's service. But if you do not have the support or even have the opposition of the pastor, that will make this restoration more difficult.//

This is the most important issue in the practical aspect of introducing these canonical services.

//� it is not realistic to think a parish with no celebration of services other than Divine Liturgy will on the next Sunday have the "full" celebration of Vespers and Matins.//

No one is suggesting simply flipping a switch and watching Divine Liturgy-only parishes institute a regular celebration of vespers and matins. But I have witnessed parishes go from celebrating Chrysostom�s liturgy with Stations on Fridays of Lent to celebrating the Presanctified Liturgy overnight simply because the next pastor changed what services were to be celebrated. This goes back to your previous statement about having a priest/pastor willing to do it and cantors willing to learn to adapt. But if a parish becomes split because the cantor changed the tone of the week, then we have another problem.

Please take my opening post for what it is: a practical reminder that this is not all so brand new that we can't imagine what it would be like to celebrate them, especially if we are already celebrating like services. That is all I was trying to say.

God bless!
Joe Thur

//There have got to be user friendly "How to Put Together Vespers and Matins For Dummies" resources, or it just won't fly.//

I believe those two books are in the works. The introduction of the Presanctified Liturgy books from Passaic is a great format, especially for those parishes not too familiar with the Samohlasen tones. If we can read music and actually practice, then all things are possible. My parish purchased enough of those PL texts for everyone who attends. Everyone opens them and follows along. Many have thanked us for getting them because they really do want to sing and not simply listen to the cantors respond. But I think the introduction of those vespers and matins books will only make things much easier.

//The Typicon is a great resource, but it assumes that the operator already knows what they are doing. Such documents should use a minimum of jargon, and have glossaries for the Greek/Slavonically Impaired. In English.//

I agree. It can be like computer software manuals of the past, primarily meant for computer geeks. E-mail me, Sharon, about the dictionary. I have something I can send you.

//Vespers isn't rocket science, but there's a joke that God doesn't strike anybody dead for screwing up Matins 'cause even He isn't quite sure how they go. That's obviously an exaggeration, but the point is well taken - at least for parishes starting at Ground Zero./

I think you have a point well made. And if you make a mistake, make it gracefully � nobody will ever know.

God bless!
Cantor Joe Thur

Brother Joe, I wasn't taking your thread as negative at all, on the contrary it is something we all speak of on this forum often and we need to be passionate about reclaiming our liturgical patrimony.

I was pointing out what "by the book" means with regard to Matins if we are really talking about full celebration of Matins by the Typicon. It will be nearly impossible to do it in most common parish settings without some "abbreviation" and "bits and pieces' approach.

I mentioned this about Matins to illustrate the point I made on the other thread that the Byzantine Typikon is the product of the predominmance of monastic influence, and to practically live it out in most parish settings we need to look at styles of "cathedral" usage to realistically pull it off. Schmemann speaks to this as does Taft.

I am just cautioning the blanket use of the term "abbreviation" or "bits and pieces" when in reality most of the parish settings, even in the Orthodox church, of Vespers and Matins are "abbreviated" relative to the full observance of the Typikon.

I have several parish versions of Matins that have been put together by Orthodox parishes as well as some Greek Catholic. Some are quite excellent but all would fit into your model of "abbreviation". Just the reintroduction of the services themselves, taking parish situations and sensibilities into account, would be an immense step forward.

It is apparent after so many years since Vatican II, the CCEO, the Instruction, the Ordo, etc. that the hierarchy will not do this, so the impetus must be from deacons, subdeacons, readers, cantors, etc. and others in the pew.

While it is imperative to promote restoration of the cycle of the Horologion, this also has to be tempered with parish realities and practicalities.

Joe,

My suggestion is what I believe most workable given the current situation in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh and probably other places in the Metropolia. I do not think it would be pastorally wise to supress Saturday evening Divine Liturgies. Since some priests cover two parishes for many this is the parishes only Liturgy. Also in many places, like my parish, many people still work shifts so a Saturday evening Liturgy gives them the opportunity to attend Liturgy where they would not have that opportunity Sunday.

Vesperal Liturgy makes a lot of sense to me becasue the bulk of Vespers is served and the people would be exposed to the Resurrectional Stichera and as you state they are used to this format from Presanctified.

Orthros, on the otherhand, is more difficult. The people, at least in Pittsburgh, are not used to the service. (Funeral Liturgies are the rule not the exception around here) You have ECF Sunday morning in most parishes as well.

Third Hour with part of the Resurrectional Canon seems much more doable and likely to have an attendance. I see little point in mandating a full Vespers and Orthros if it means 5 people in Church. At that point we are satisfying our own desires, even if it is encouraged by decrees. We must meet the people where they are at. We must restore our tradtions, but we must be realistic as well.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Diak & Lance,

I appreciate the cautious approach in taking into consideration the pastoral practicalities in individual parishes. You are both right. Such things have to be considered.

There are many factors involved: the willingness of the priest/pastor, the willingness and skill of the cantor, the willingness of the people to attend more than Divine Liturgy. We must also need, as Cantor Sharon pointed out, the 'means' to do the job, namely good user-friendly texts.

We must also realized that we are also up against many cultural and personal factors: the lack of desire to go beyond the bare minimum, conflicts with soccer practice, the personal spirituality of the pastor who may prefer other devotions, the lack of cooperation of the choir and/or people who prefer to sing everything according to one tone ... always.

So, my argument isn't based on such factors mentioned above. It is based solely on the possibility that we can do them while having the experience of doing similar services already in our parishes. Of course, not everyone will come.

I did know a guest priest who laughed at being invited to a Presanctified Liturgy years ago when it was still new. He couldn't understand why he had to waste his time driving all the way to celebrate a service whereby only six people showed up. I would hate to think where that parish would be today if he was the pastor. Interesting enough, the pastor who introduced the Presanctified Liturgy was a former Latin Catholic, and the priest who laughed was a cradle Greek Catholic! Go figure.

Joe

Joe, it's not really a matter of being cautious as much as being realistic. It does have to be done one step at a time.
I am a very strong proponent of doing the Hours before the Liturgy. This can be done by a reader if the priest is busy with the Proskomidia. Before the Hours we also often either read the Canon to the Trinity from the Midnight Office or one of the Resurrectional Canons from Matins reader's style.

Sure it's abbreviated relative to full Matins, no doubt, but at least we can make the beautiful theology and texts available in some form to the people. Also it provides an atmosphere of reverence that people walk into and can peacefully transition to the summit, the incredible Liturgy about to happen. And it makes people shut up when they come into church and the Reader is chanting the Praises... But starting with the Hours less than a year ago we are now moving to regular Saturday night Vespers in August, and hopefully Matins by this time next year.

The restoration of the Horologion is absolutely necessary if we are to reclaim our Byzantine liturgical identity. But, every child has to walk before he or she runs.

I apologize if my original post sounded like it was not realistic or pastorally sensitive. It wasn't an investigation into HOW such services would be introduced. I would hate you to think I was just born yesterday and also finished taking ADVANCED IDEALISM 401.

Joe

Joe, you are too hard on yourself. These issues need to be discussed if we are ever going to reclaim our Byzantine liturgical heritage. Thank God we have a place and the people to discuss these things.

Diak,

Just wanted to point out that this is not entirely new to us. The next step for many in our parishes isn't too high after all.

Joe

I agree. The 'canonical services' (I'm not sure I am completely comfortable with the way we use that word in this context, when most of us hear 'canonical' do we think 'legally authorized', do we really mean those services sanctioned by the 'tradition'?) must be not only discussed, but restored [carefully and completely] to us! They must be celebrated and prayed with great love and devotion. Then we will be on our way to reclaim not only our liturgical heritage, but our spiritual and theological treasures as well!

Joe,

You mentioned introducing the Third Hour before Sunday Divine Liturgy. Right now, our cantors go over the Sunday Propers with the congregation before Liturgy, because they are not always familiar with the Tones, etc. The Third Hour includes at least part of the Propers, so the "rehearsal" should go away once the Third Hour is implemented. I'm personally looking forward to that.

There are always concerns about attendance at services other than Sunday Liturgy. (The evening liturgies allow more families to attend as opposed to weekday morning ones.) The decisions about what services to offer may be justified by what is in the typikon, but will depend on what the Eparchy itself or the clergy can support. There is extra work involved to prepare for Vespers, Matins, etc., not to mention a learning curve for everyone, and there may be special circumstances in some cases.

For what it's worth, the OCA in the west usually has Vespers Saturday evening, Matins & Liturgy Sunday morning (or Vigil Saturday evening instead of Vespers and Matins, with First, Third, & Sixth Hours or part before Liturgy), regardless of headcount (and there are relatively few people outside Liturgy). That's expected/required by their bishop. They don't have the Vesperal Liturgies the way we do, however, so they miss younger parishioners on weekdays.