Dear Friends,

Why do we?

Alex

We resume kneeling on Pentecost Monday (the prayers of kneeling are read during Vespers, after the Great Prokeimenon) since the great Fifty Days are over and we go back to "things as usual."

We technically don't kneel on Pentecost itself since, a) Pentecost is a Sunday and we technically don't kneel on Sundays and b) it is the Fiftieth Day of and the Eighth Sunday of the Passover.

Dave

Dear Dave,

Is your patron King David? If so, I've posted an Akathist to him on "Faith and Worship."

But our parishes do the kneeling prayers on Sunday after the liturgy.

And then each time the prayer, Heavenly King, is recited, the priest kneels.

Are they doing wrong?

And for how long are the kneeling prayers said?

Alex

I'll be you're doing the same thing we do... On Pentecost there is no kneeling since it's a feast & a Sunday. Monday is the first day for kneeling, and we kneel as soon as we can after missing it for 50 days, so the kneeling service is on the Eve of Monday, ie Sunday night. But in areas where people work a lot & travel far & just wouldn't come back after the long service for Pentecost that morning, we cheat a little do the kneeling service a few hours earlier than what would be ideal... usually around 1:00, which can really in no way be considered the Eve of Monday, but it's better than losing the service all together.

Hi Alex,

My patron is actually Saint David the Stylite of Thessalonica, whose feast (on the New Calendar) is this Thursday, June 26. I saw the akathist though, and it looks cool!

A common parish practice is to either do the Vespers for Pentecost Monday immediately after the Divine Liturgy, or just take the three Kneeling Prayers before the Dismissal of the Divine Liturgy.

I am in no place to say what is right and what is wrong for a parish. The "ideal" one could say would be to have Vespers with the three Kneeling Prayers at the time of sunset, but to say that the many, many parishes that have the Kneeling Prayers at the conclusion of Liturgy are "wrong" might be a bit harsh. I definately wouldn't say it.

Dave

Dear Dave,

You are truly blessed to have "Ossios David" as your patron! Many years to you.

My wife and I were taken by her Godmother to the tiny monastery of Ossios David in Thessaloniki. It is the most serene of places in the midst of a great metropolis! I cannot explain the peace that we found there other than to say that it was truly of God. I highly recommend a visit there!

In Christ,
Andrew

Regarding the post-Pentecostal kneeling prayers:

A compromise which helps preserve both the Vespers in which the kneeling prayers are supposed to occur and the festal nature of the Holy Pentecost, while recognizing difficulties of travel and transport, would be something like this:

Divine Liturgy ending at appoximately noon.

Feastal Pentecostal dinner from noon until 2:00 or 3:00 PM.

Reconvene the assembly for the Vespers with the kneeling prayers at 3:00 PM.


This is not a perfect compromise, but it heads in the right direction, or so I contend.

At the same time, I can't adamantly oppose kneeling prayers and/or vespers immediately following the Divine Liturgy. According to the rubrics, the Vespers of the Presanctified Liturgy may start at 3:00 PM or as early as noon. This of course is in the context of lenten pre-eucharistic fasting and not immediately following a great feast day.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

I've had two friends of mine visit Osios David in Thessaloniki, and I hope to visit one day as well!

Your compromise is pretty much what my parish did this year. Being that Pentecost is our parish feastday we had Divine Liturgy, a festal outdoor Procession, our annual parish BBQ starting about noon (with the parish reader aka me getting into a major water balloon fight with some of the kids) and (after a quick change into dry clothes for me) Vespers at 2:30, give or take a few minutes. We had 97 people for Liturgy, 50+ for the picnic and 35 for Vespers. We truly had a parish feast!

A few photos are on our website: http://htc.faithweb.com/pentecost

Dave

I am confused

I am not sure of the reason for the kneeling. Could someone explain this to me?

Michael

From the Feast of the Ressurection (Easter) to the Feast of Pentecost is the Holy 50 days/the Pentecost seacon/the Easter Season. During this time we do not kneen in rememberence of the Ressurection. At the end of the 50 day period, it's legal to kneel again, so we have a service of kneeling to make up for the 50 days when we weren't kneeling. The priest prays litanies, and the congregation replied "lord have mercy" while doing prostrations.

Thanks C-O, that makes sense to me.

Michael

Wow, a OCA church that uses Greek-style vestments!
I would be interested to know what style of liturgical singing Holy Trinty uses? Great Russian ,Carpathian Prostopinije, Galician Prostopinije or a mixture??

Shchastlivyj Zelenie Nedilju!
Ung-Certez

CIX!

Greek-style vestments are becoming "vogue" among some circles of the OCA; Holy Trinity has been wearing them exclusively for as long as I can remember. It comes as a shock to many. The congregation has only been around for about 27 years now, and I believe the founding priest began using Greek-style vestments and it just stuck.

The music is mostly your typical OCA/Great Russian chant with an occasional piece from another tradition. When there is no choir and I have to sing a service (a daily Matins or Vespers, for example), I like to incorporate as much prostopinije as I can (personal preference). However, if I have other people singing with me, I generally use Russian tones so they can sing as well.

Dave

In my former parish (OCA), the priest had both Greek-style "low-back" as well as Russian-style "high-back" phelonia. The green set for Pentecost was "low-back." And this priest was born in Moscow!

And as far as music and language: Byzantine, Galician, Obikhod, Bulgarian, Carpatho-Russian and Serbian chant could be heard (as well as the liturgical compositions of Bortniansky, Tchaikovsky and other Russian masters), amidst (primarily) English, Slavonic and Greek for liturgical languages.

OrthodoxEast

It is good to hear that "some" OCA parishes still use the Prostopinije chant (Subcarpathian or Galician) of their indeginous founders. I wish more OCA churches would rediscover their "South-West Rus' liturgical tradition. I'm always amazed how a Church whose founders were 95% non-Great Russians have been lost their indigenous plainchant tradition and that's a shame.

Ung-Certez

Dave, I think quite a few parishes follow the practice of Liturgy, dinner, and then Vespers w/kneeling prayers.

I think it is interesting that in the Great Book of Needs it indicates that the priest can face the faithful for the kneeling prayers but indicates that the older practice is for the priest to face east, as at the prayers of light. I don't think I have ever seen a priest face the people for the kneeling prayers. Anyone else have comments on the direction the priest is kneeling when he reads the kneeling prayers?

Dear Friends,

I'm still not sure of the reason why we kneel specifically for the prayers to the Holy Spirit.

Our Eastern Churches aren't great for "kneeling" during the liturgy - we prefer to stand, especially on Sundays. The kneeling my church has is really a Latinization.

My own view is that kneeling is a way of expressing great desire in prayer and preparedness for the actual reception of a great Gift - the Holy Spirit.

I'm also wondering if, in former zealous times, people knelt to avoid hurting themselves as a resut of being overwhelmed by the experience of the Gift of the Spirit at Pentecost?

Alex

Dear Dave,

It uplifts me greatly to hear that such an appropriate model for Kneeling Vespers is not only implemented, but also well-attended. May God bless all of the faithful at Holy Trinity Church!

The pictures were beautiful.

And may you find yourself someday in the perfect serenity of the Ossios David Monastery!

In Christ,
Andrew

Alex: the three kneeling prayers are not addressed to the Holy Spirit, but to Christ. (I just found out last week that there is a fourth kneeling prayer addressed to the Holy Spirit used in the Old Rite, but that's neither here nor there.) So it's not really that we are kneeling for prayers to the Holy Spirit, but that the prayers for the reinstatement of kneeling, suppressed for 50 days, are addressed to Christ.

Diak, you raise a good point about the direction of the prayers. This was a recent topic on another internet list. Some individuals suggested that these prayers are read facing the people in the Greek and (the post-Nikonian) Russian traditions so that the prayers will be heard by all. I just find it odd, considering that we are an oriented church; they are addressed to Christ, not the people, so face Him! That's just my opinion, and what I would do, but if a priest reads them facing the people (as my priest did) it doesn't really bother me. Greater things to worry about in my life.

S'Bohom.

Dave

Dear Dave,

Yes, the text of those beautiful prayers is well-known to me!

They are still prayers "for the Gift of the Holy Spirit" and are to Christ Who is the One who sends us the Holy Spirit.

I STILL (forgive me for making this an issue) don't understand the kneeling thing - our Churches don't usually make kneeling a part of their liturgical practice, except during Lent.

And why is it that priests, in my church anyway, kneel when, during Pentecost week, they recite the prayer to the Holy Spirit "O heavenly King?"

Alex

If I remember correctly (didn't make it this year) in my Church the priest faces east for this. But it would make some sense to face the congregation since Christ promised that when 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name He will be there. So in a sense Christ is present among us through the congregation, and so during the prayer of the Psalms the priest faces the congregation since that is how Christ is present to us at that point in the Liturgy.

Kneeling is always part of the Liturgy. There are several parts where you kneel, in every tradition I've ever heard of. Sundays and the season of Pentecost, as well as other Major Feasts are exceptions when we do not kneel in rememberence of the Ressurection. But outside Pentecost on a weekday, there should be kneeling in the Liturgy.

Dear CopticOrthodox,

I'm not familiar with the tradition of liturgical kneeling throughout the year on weekdays in the Oriental Churches, forgive me.

But my Eastern parish does not kneel at all, not on Sundays and not on weekdays. The former pastor there made it a point to explain to us the significance of standing. There is kneeling during Lent, however.

So what is the theological significance of kneeling during the liturgy if kneeling is primarily an act of penitence?

And during the prayers invoking the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

Alex

"I think it is interesting that in the Great Book of Needs it indicates that the priest can face the faithful for the kneeling prayers but indicates that the older practice is for the priest to face east, as at the prayers of light. I don't think I have ever seen a priest face the people for the kneeling prayers. Anyone else have comments on the direction the priest is kneeling when he reads the kneeling prayers?"

Dear Diak - the Old Rite practice is for the priest to face the people.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Does anyone of the Old Rite know why we kneel for those prayers too?

Alex

During the Kneeling Prayers in my OCA church, my young 29-year-old Russian-born priest from Tula recited these prayers facing the people. His now-retired elderly American-born predecessor recited these same prayers facing East. So, in this particular "Russian Orthodox" OCA parish, we've had it both ways!

In my two previous OCA parishes, the priest recited the Kneeling Prayers facing the people--always.

OrthodoxEast

We kneel (prostration, head to ground) during the absolutions, in worship when the bread & wine are turned into the Body and Blood, etc, about 6 times in total. Do all EO/EC not have this practice, I'd always thought all Eastern Christians kneeled except at the times forbidden by Nicea?

Outside of the Liturgy some people also do a certain number of prostrations assigned by their Father of Confession, and in Prime there's "O come let us worship, O come let us ask Christ our [God/King/Saviour] 3x where we keel each time.

We kneel before God to bow our spirits, to humble ourselves, to submit ourselves to God, and to worship our King.

That's interesting, Father Mark, because in the notes in the Trebnik it states that facing the people is the more recent practice.

I wonder if the priest facing east is an older particular Kyivan practice, considering many of the notes in the Slavonic Trebnik came from Mohylian texts which were themselves some of the last widely distributed pre-Nikonian Trebnik texts in Kyivan lands. The Nikonian revisions occurred not long after St. Peter Moghila's death (1647).

Egad, Alex, we've never answered the question...

I think rather than deep theological reasons it was the liturgical means of ending the prohibition on kneeling from Pascha. As Tertullian records it was "unlawful to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord's day [Sunday]; we enjoy the same liberty from Easter day to that of Pentecost."

This became law at the Council of Nicea a few years later in Canon 20: "Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing."

I am not sure with the practice of kneeling for Pentecost that symbolic or allegorical connotations can be made that most liturgical actions can be derived from, but rather the liturgical "reaction" to the end of standing for Liturgy. Also since the prayers are supplicatory in nature, this may also have influenced a posture of kneeling.

Other explanations I have heard such like since the Spirit came down upon the Apostles, we need to receive "down" on bent knees, etc., are rather ambiguous and weak.

Dear Diak,

I've missed out a word in my post. It's meant to say that the priest faces WITH the people - that is he faces the prestol, praying for the people, but also as one of them. You are absolutely correct.

As for the questions about kneeling - we shouldn't forget that liturgically, vespers belongs to Monday, the day of the Holy Spirit. I know there are all sorts of ideas about points of transition when kneelings and prostrations return during vespers, but imagine these are probably later than the Jewish reckoning starting the day at sunset.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Dave,

In fact Saint David of Thessaloniki was not an stylite but a dendrite (δενδρίτης from the Greek word δένδρον=tree)from Messopotamia (Irak). He become a monk in Thessaloniki, at Latomou Monastery, a quite important monastery for two reasons a) it has got in the apse of the katholikon a protochristian mosaic with an image of an adolescent Jesus Christ sorrounded by the tetramorfos (Orfic Christ) and 2) becouse, apart from Saint David, Saint Joseph the Hymnografer also was monk in that monastery for some period, when he left Sicily because of the Arab conquerors. The relics of your patron saint are currently at Saint Theodoras Monastery in the Thesaloniki. Today the relics of Saint David will be againt at Latomou Monastery where an All Night Vigil will be celebrated. May Saint David bless you and all your family and friends always.