Christos Voskrese!
Voistinu Voskres!
(Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava Na Viki!)

Hello, peace be with all. Firstly, I post this question here in this particular section because I believe it is a major part of the eastern faith to know if its greatest oppressor is a heresy. I have read in a few articles and in a book ("Eastern Christendom") that the self-proclaimed prophet Muhammed was under heavy influence by mariolaters (a group of heretics) and that his book of "prophecy", Al-Qur'an, has opinions of Christianity based on the opinions of heretics. Not to mention the way he butchered those Jews in Madinah. Also, what about what I hear of Muslim worship and architecture being copied off that of Eastern Christianity? Is this true as well?

I ran across a site accidently tonight, called www.answering-islam.com, [answering-islam.com,] hoping to find some apologetics help, but it was an anti-Christian site! I could not believe it, the stuff they posted. They tried to pull out anything they could about "Jesus not being God" and there "being no mention of Trinity in the bible". They tore everything out of context and they have the most horrendous theological approach about christianity that completely destroys any argument
they may have even though to have had. Also, they seemed very angry against everyone who wasn't Arab/Muslim/Fanatic (go figure).

Your opinions on this will be greatly appreaciated.
Thank you,
Christos Voskres, Voistinu Voskres!
-Justin

Justin, I wouldn't take this guy seriously, not just for the way he takes Christianity and Judaism out of context, and yet strains to show the context of Muslim claims. Justice requires that he show both. But that isn't my main problem with the guy and his site.

This is:

Osama bin Laden: At least he stood up for our 1.5 million Iraqi victims from the Gulf War [1] [2] [3] [4], while the rest of the Arab governments bent over to their US god. He was against all of the dictators in the Muslim world, and considered them as infidels, and wanted to assassinate them and topple them, but the US and its ally forces were already in the Gulf region, and in the Holy Lands of Mecca and Madina, and caused the death of 1.5 million Iraqis, 500,000 of them were children, according to the first three links of the Western sources above. He was against all evil. He was terribly misunderstood. He is my hero! (see his picture when he was 14) May Allah Almighty rest his soul.

Now I'm no fan of Israel, and I support the Palestinian people while condemning violence all around as much as the next guy, but I would hope even sensible people who support the Palestinians would not support the above claim.

Obviously, we are heretics, according to the Christian religion.

That is the very first thing we tell those Christians who attend our prayer circles, so they will not be deceived.

Muhammed was a tough cookie. This is something we accept without apology since he was a mere man and actually had more in common with Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Joshua, Saul, David, Solomon, etc., and the other Old Testament prophets-- personality wise-- than he had with Jesus.

From what our once-upon-a-time Christian father taught us, it seems that at least some of these Old Testament prophets, who shared much of Muhammed's personality traits, are saints of the Catholic Church or they are held in high esteem by both the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Islam is very much an Old Testament type of religion.

Obviously, to you, Muhammed is a false prophet, and how could he be otherwise? But, again, this is not an issue for us since we believe in the revelation of Allah,

"There is no God but God,

and Muhammed is the messenger of God."

This is our creed.

We also believe in the prophethood of Jesus, but we obviously are not trinitarian, but are unitarian.

Objectively speaking, there probably can never be any real and lasting peace between Islam and Christianity.

We seem to have been made for holy war.

Muslims are the slaves of Allah and slaves serve their Master without complaint and without questioning His revelation.

May all of us serve our families with fervor and honor.

Abdur

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Reader beware:

The web site posted by Justin is a fundamentalist site.

Many Muslims would take exception to the interpretations of Islamic truth posted on this site, just as a Catholic Christian would take exception to a Protestant fundamentalist's interpretation of Christianity.

Abdur

Justin,

Christ is Risen!

I would refer you to an excellent text by a renowned Catholic historian, Hilaire Belloc, THE GREAT HERESIES. First published by Sheed & Ward in 1938 and reprinted by TAN Books in 1991. The following paragraph is from a chapter entitled, The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed: "Mohammedanism was a heresy: that is the essential point to grasp before going any further. It began as a heresy, not as a new religion. It was not a pagan contrast with the Church; it was not an alien enemy. It was a perversion of Christian doctrine. Its vitality and endurance soon gave it the appearance of a new religion, but those who were contemporary with its rise saw it for what it was --not a denial, but an adaption and a misuse, of the Christian thing. It differed from most (not from all) heresies in this, that it did not arise within the bounds of the Christian Church. The cheif heresiarch, Mohammed himself, was not, like most heresiarchs, a man of Catholic birth and doctrine to begin with. He sprang from pagans. But that which he taught was in the main Catholic doctrine, oversimplified. It was the great Catholic world--on the frontiers of which he lived, whose influence was all around him and whose territories he had known by travel--which inspired his convictions. . . . If anyone sets down those points that orthodox Catholicism has in common with Mohammedanism, and those points only, one might imagine if one went no further that there should have been no cause of quarrel. . . . But the central point where this new heresy struck home with a mortal blow against Catholic tradition was a full denial of the Incarnation.'

Justin, I think Belloc's description is a valid one.

Lazareno

Yes, Islam is " the Great and Enduring Heresy," and we appreciate the fact that Belloc acknowledged it as such.

Of course, though Muslims recognize that Christians certainly believe--and must believe--that Islam is a heresy, we believe it is a new revelation from God.

Belloc certainly is correct in his affirmation of one of the central doctrines of Allah's ( God"s ) revelation to mankind through the Holy Quran: the denial that Deity is incarnate.

However, the denial of incarnate Deity is not a belief exclusive to Islam since it is a central and core belief of Judaism and other faiths.

Certainly, Islam and Judaism have much more in common with one another than either Islam or Judaism has with Christianity.


Salaam,

Abdur

BTW: Muslims never refer to Islam as "Muhammedism," anymore than most Byzantine Catholics would refer to their faith as "uniatism."

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Friends,

Well, I think some of us Christians have a tendency to run all over Islam and that is not Christian. It is too easy to do this in today's atmosphere and since the U.S. and its Allies are at war with Muslims.

Also, I personally cannot accept that Islam was ever a "heresy."

To be heretical, one must first of all be Christian to begin with.

Heretics are Christians whose understanding of Christian doctrine is not in keeping with that of the Church. It is a deliberate act of defiance against the Church one belongs to.

Islam may have borrowed this and that from other faiths, very much like other religions do as well, but unless someone can prove that Muhammad was ever a baptized Christian or belonged to any Christian Church or sect, he was not a heretic in the strict theological understanding of the term.

Alex

Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

To be heretical, one must first of all be Christian to begin with.

Heretics are Christians whose understanding of Christian doctrine is not in keeping with that of the Church. It is a deliberate act of defiance against the Church one belongs to.

Islam may have borrowed this and that from other faiths, very much like other religions do as well, but unless someone can prove that Muhammad was ever a baptized Christian or belonged to any Christian Church or sect, he was not a heretic in the strict theological understanding of the term.

Exactly.

Greg

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Mystic ]

Dear Greg,

You really do mystify, Friend!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear Friends,

"Well, I think some of us Christians have a tendency to run all over Islam and that is not Christian. It is too easy to do this in today's atmosphere and since the U.S. and its Allies are at war with Muslims."

The irony is, all of the bad press and condemnation Islam has received since 9/11 has actually benefited the American Islamic communities, from orthodox to conservative to liberal to sectarian.

People, who are spiritual vagabonds and seekers, have had their curiosity aroused by the demonization of this exotic, but universal monotheistic faith. So, they inquire and study and observe, and many of them eventually enter our communities; 38,000 Americans did just that between 9/11 and February. I am not sure what the statistics are since that date.

So! The more "bad press" and demonization of our various Islamic cultures, the better, since these seem to be our most effective missionary tactics.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Abdur,

That is why I am so nice to my Muslim friends!

Salaam Alekum!

Alex

Technically we cannot call Islam a heresy. But from what I understand it was based on the Arian heresy, which denied the divinity of Christ. Also many of the customs of Islam are directly taken from Eastern Orthodoxy. The Arians were ripe for conversion to a new religion. They had the learning, the scholars and I suppose the dollars.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

Abdur,

You said, "Certainly, Islam and Judaism have much more in common with one another than either Islam or Judaism has with Christianity."

That is simply FALSE! Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Islam is only based upon a heresy of a man (mohammed (may God judge him)). Islam is in no way similar to Judaism.

It is obvious you do not know much about Christianity.

Now...now...let's not be too nice.

We certainly don"t want to spoil a good thing! :rolleyes:

Salaam and good luck, Professor Roman!

Abdur

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

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Islam and Judaism

Akbar S. Ahmed, celebrates the Jewish contribution to humanity and the shared core belief in the one omnipotent, universal God.

American incursions into Iraq mean that once again Muslims and Jews, and not only in the Middle East, will be on opposite sides. Yet when I, as a Muslim, contemplate the Jewish contribution to humanity in history,
I feel awe and pride.

Awe because of the scale of the contribution -some of the most influential shapers of our world have Jewish associations, like Marx, Freud and Einstein. And pride because I am aware that there are traditional and mythological connections between Islam and Judaism. Both go back to the core of belief - to the idea of one omnipotent, universal God, faith in the meritoriousness of good works and justice, and a keen love for the Prophets, social stability, civic righteousness and personal morality.
Of course, both Judaism and Islam deny the incarnation of deity, a common belief that separates Jews and Muslims from Christians and Hindus.

This remarkable harmony and symbiosis, recorded in our shared history and beliefs,is often overlooked because of the current confrontation in the Middle East, and it is well for scholars and leaders to look back to the synthesis there once was in Spain. The Encyclopaedia Britannica notes the "almost boundless toleration" of the Muslims:
"In Spain there came about a remarkable revival. The Jews knew no restrictions upon their activities... the Arab invasion brought salvation." Muslim Spain, at its best, was a culture of religious and cultural tolerance, of libraries and literature and parks.

Several times, when Muslims took Jerusalem from Christians, one of their first acts was to allow Jews back to the city: Hazrat Umar, one of the greatest names of Islam, who reconquered Jerusalem, permitted the Jews to return to the city. I was not surprised to learn that a great Muslim hero, Salahuddin, had as a senior advisor Maimonides, the great Jewish scholar.

In sharp contrast is anti-Semitism in Europe, where Christians widely believed that Jews were Christ-killers; they had betrayed Christ and so had to be punished. Crusaders against the Muslims often began their journey in Europe by slaughtering Jews. Hitler's Glaubenskrieg, the war against Jews, was the culmination, the inexorable conclusion, of a millennium of anti-Semitism. It has become the symbol of evil, and the Holocaust one of the darkest stains on human conscience.

Let us constantly remind ourselves that anti-Semitism is far from dead in Europe. As a Muslim, I note that whenever there is Islamophobia or hatred against Muslims, the signs of anti-Semitism are not far behind. We need to point out that the roots of prejudice among Muslims against the Jewish people are complex and originate from different sources.

Prejudice can be religious, ie anti-Judaic; it can be racist, ie anti-Semitic; and it can be political, ie anti-Zionist. Prejudice may combine all three, but one prejudice does not automatically assume the other two. There may be those who oppose the political ideas of Zionism, but are not either anti-Judaic or anti-Semitic.

The success of Zionism in creating Israel complicates matters for Muslims. Loss of land for the Palestinians and the loss of Jerusalem are viewed with injustice and anger among Muslims. In the rhetoric of confrontation, many themselves blur the distinction between anti-Judaism, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Such Muslims make the mistake they accuse others of making about themselves: seeing all Jews as monolithic and threatening.

It would be foolish, though, to deny that unless Muslims feel that genuine tolerance and compassion are shown to the Palestinian people, unless the right of Muslims to the holy city of Jerusalem is acknowledged, and unless media hostility is checked, there will be no end to the confrontation between religions and nations. The people of the Book - Muslims, Jews and Christians - need to find a way of living peacefully together. If we cannot think in terms of our common noble religions, let us think in terms of our common cultural heritage as representing the ideal.

Only a few months ago I had a grandson. He was named Ibrahim after the great Muslim prophet, who is also the great Jewish and Christian patriarch. Ibrahim inherits a legacy of several millennia. He will not be denied his heritage. I would like him to see the Jews and Christians as kin, People of the Book. I would also like him to visit and pray in Jerusalem, with peace in his heart. For me, from Adam in the mists of time to Ibrahim, my grandson, there is a span of human history which both incorporates the great religions of the world and provides hope and optimism for the future.

Dr. Akbar Ahmed, Fellow, Selwyn College, Cambridge, was the first Muslim asked by the Liberal and Progressive Synagogues to deliver the Rabbi Dr David Goldstein Memorial Lecture. His book, A Short Introduction to Islam, was published in February 1999.

Source: The Guardian (London)

Saturday, January 16, 1999
After Cambridge, Professor Ahmed served as the Pakistani ambassador to London.� He is currently the Ibn Khaldun Chair and Professor of Islamic Studies, at the School of International Services, American University, Washington, D.C.
Read more articles by Professor Ahmed here.
�
�

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

The Encyclopaedia Britannica notes the "almost boundless toleration" of the Muslims:

What happened to the Jews in Syria, Iran and other countries of the peace-loving Moslem nations? Where are they today? The Jehovah Witnesses are much closer to Judaism than Islam(much closer than you might believe).

The Church of Christ is the New Israel. Archeology is all very fine, but the truth is that there is only one way to God and that is by way of the Son. Abraham entertained the three strangers i.e. the Holy Trinity and even the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, saw the Son of God in the furnace.

Of course we should live in peace with each other, but that has nothing to do with heritage or false belief.

Fr Serafim

Peace be with all!
Thank you for all your posts, they have been most helpful and enlightening.
Abdur, your struggle (play on words with "jihad") with us Christians does not go un-noted, though I cannot say whether the notes are good or bad in the records of God...
I must side with the majority of my Christian brethren on this one, as history, the Qur'an and the Sunna/Hadith all seem to point to some discreet form of non-chalcedonism gone even more awry. I must also correct myself, replace the word "heresy" with "misconception" or "freak non-chalcedonism".

As for what was said by Abdur regarding converts, I tell you this now. Every convert I have spoken to were all ill-informed about the religion they've been a part of before (mainly protestants) by that site I noted earlier, and many other garbage sites like that. As such, it does not surprise me that they have gone astray, for they were not taught orthodoxy. I have such a sharp tone because there was once a point when I NEARLY CONVERTED TO ISLAM... I was so far into the web of Muhammedanism that I had nearly been crushed by heresy. I read the Qur'an, rejected Jesus' divinity, removed all my holy icons/images and spoke actively against the Catholic/Orthodox Church.

Of course, it was because I was ill0informed about the beautiful religion I was born into. Somewhere between the left-leaning media and the stories of "inquisitions" and the movie "Elizabeth" I found myself a virtual wreck.
I was ironically saved from Islam by a protestant at a debate camp. I remember saying that I felt called to become a priest yet I rejected the divinity of Jesus, the infallibility of scriptures and I wanted to read the Qur'an in church mass.

She, of course, had quite the counter-argument. She used words like "grace" and "justification", words I have never heard of before. I defended with petty arguments such as "man can be saved by his own deeds, without grace". After a little thinking, I bought a copy of the Catechism of the church I felt alien to and began to read. Soon, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism all seemed to be put aside for my quest for the true faith of the one Church. I had problems dealing with protestant or catholic, though I eventually pulled through.

I find this story very moving and divinely guided, as I remember meeting the bishop of my diocese long ago about wanting to become a priest.
I asked a question regarding Islam and was told that I should learn more about my own faith first. This was before that fateful summer at debate camp. Also, I remember being in the squires and one of the counsellors said "well, it is great that you have the vocation to the priesthood, but you should know, the devil has many snares and he will try to pull you away". At the time I set his comment aside as superstition, though I now see the importance it carried. Ever since then, I never lost sight of the true faith.

Rejoice brothers and sisters in Christ!
He is risen!
Amen!
-Peace and goodwill,
Justin,sinner

HEY!! Not ALL "Non-Chalcedonianism" is bad! :p

Let's not turn this into a Dioscoros/Flavian deathmatch...my Dioscoros will beat up your Flavian anytime, anywhere.

Well, Father Seraphim and Catholic_Servant86, we certainly will not come to any agreement on this issue.

I will agree with Rabbi Barry Altman, Rabbi Israel Barszak, and others, who are true experts on this subject and have been our community teachers for the last two years.

Nothing personal, but they are scholars and all of them would disagree with your interpretation of the facts.

Clearly, where Judaism and Islam are most united is in our common rejection of the belief in incarnate deity.

Certainly, we share common practices, such as similar dietary laws, laws of divorce, strict monotheism, charity, and many other similar beliefs and practices, but our common rejection of incarnate gods sets us apart--unequivocally--from other faiths, while at the same time uniting us in the faith of Ibrahim.

Jehovah's Witnesses? Rabbis Altman and Barszak would not appreciate the comparison!

The Jews of Syria and Iraq?

Unfortunately, like the Jews of Spain and Ethiopia, they were cruelly expelled from the land of their birth.

Struggle? Believe me, I love the "struggle," as long as we remain gentlemen. Maybe I enjoy the struggle too much. On the other hand, when you find yourself engaged in debate with a person seriously struggling with his or her faith, the godly thing to do is disengage. I learned this lesson while attending Catholic parochial school.

Many Christians--it seems to me--are struggling with their faith and the humane thing to do is to encourage them to become strong in their Christian faith.


Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Now now, Mor Ephrem, I assure you that I have no desire to war against non-chalcedonians, that has been done enough and has been too futile. In fact, I should point out that Islam had such a large success in non-chalcedonian states in part because the natives thought that Islamic culture and thought would treat them better than the imperialist Byzantine government. My non-chalcedonian brethren hold a place of extremely high esteem and love in my heart and my mind. espeacially the copts with all the trouble they've been through over the ages. So I assure you, I have no desire to do anything that would harm any true Christians. Thank you
-Justin

Dear Catholicos,

As you know, Flavian was "counted out" in that match centuries ago . . .

One way to "punch up" a theological discussion, eh?

Alex

Dear Abdur,

You are right, of course, on your point regarding the Incarnation.

But I cannot help but see a closeness of Islam to Christianity in a number of points, including the fact that some Islamic scholars have come to the philosophical conclusion that the best form of union between God and man would be Incarnation.

Muslims and Christians often pray at the same Shrines, festivals in Egypt and Ethiopia are celebrated by them both.

The Shrine of St Basil Ostroshky of Chornohora is honoured by Muslims (who do experience miracles of healing there - could it be that St Basil doesn't discriminate against God's children? ).

Mohammed, it should be remembered, defended the Virginity of the Mother of Jesus very strenuously.

He was, for a certainty, in direct communication with the Ethiopian Miaphysites or Oriental Orthodox Church that protected him and with whom he developed a cordial relationship, even warning his followers to leave that Church alone.

The Arian heresy was, by his time, defunct as well.

There are studies by Catholic scholars in this field about Muhammad and Islam and they carry on a constructive dialogue with Islam.

And, FYI, how is it that some of us on this thread are criticizing Islam and the Muslims while, on yet another, we defend the Palestinians and, implicitly, their fight with Israel etc.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Just wondering . . .

I, for one, refuse to be part of any more sniping at Abdur and Islam.

It is up to the Moderator to judge this, but I'm outta this thread.

Alex

Dear Professor,

Thank you, but I don't mind the "snipes," because these fellows are absolutely sincere. And, I am--to a certain degree--a product of the Catholic educational system, as I must assume, are many forum members.
If these chaps didn't come to the defense of their faith, I would be disappointed.

Truthfully, just as Catholics believe their faith is superior to all other faiths, so do Muslims, and I am no different in that regard, even though my beliefs are quite eclectic.

Actually, there exists an Islamic world outside of fundamentalism, terrorism, general literature, and the media that is quite different from what the majority of our forum members truly believe is clearly definitive of Islam. So, I do not blame them when they take positions on Islam that are onesided and too global to be accurate or descriptive of reality. But they are doing the best they can with the information at hand. And, Allah knows, I have a lot to learn about Christianity.

My experience here is both delightful and a replication of my experiece in Catholic parochial school. There is a Slavic Muslim proverb: " Allah delights in putting our faithfulness to the test."

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Dr. Abdur,

Who blessed me to be a professor?

Well, you are a very good sport then.

And as for more snipes, you don't have to ask some of the posters here twice when it comes to that . . .

A question - how does one become a saint in Islam? I don't mean a martyr . I mean a saint.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear Dr. Abdur,

"Who blessed me to be a professor? "

Your DNA.

"A question - how does one become a saint in Islam? I don't mean a martyr . I mean a saint."

How?

You hire yourself a Madison Avenue publicist who is a pathological liar with a very vivid imagination!

Seriously...it all boils down to--ouch!--the will of the people, since all Muslim saints--as far as I know--are local saints.

In Islam, I guess one could say, all sainthood is local!

Well, then there is the Shi'a....


Salaam,

Abdur

Dr. Abdur?

I no longer live in Miami. I stopped practicing medicine without a license years ago....just kidding!

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Since I'm embroiled in a debate elsewhere in cyberspace on this very subject, I can say that my defense of the Palestinians stems from my own understanding of the history of Israel. I have not once brought religion into it, myself, and have even succeeded in keeping it out of the debate, which, ironically, is with an atheist who supports Zionism (I still don't understand how, but, hey, to each his own). I'm not going to go so far as to say that religion has no place in the conflict, which it most assuredly does, but has nothing to do with my defense of Palestine claims on their land.

God bless,
mikey.

The Islam you will not see on CNN.

Catholic Revival in Kosovo?


THE ONLY ONES WITHOUT MISSIONARIES
By Stephen Schwartz
(This is the third and last of a series of front-line reports from the Balkans.)

They came in thousands, in crowds and in single file, over the mountains, through forests and across rivers. Some were wounded and covered with blood. Some were grieving the loss of relatives killed by Serbian terrorists or were silent with worry over kidnapped menfolk. Some were so old they had seen, or experienced, such expulsions at least once, and sometimes more, in their lives.
They were Albanians from Kosovo, on the move during the recent war. Muslims and Catholics (the latter typically ignored by global media), ordinary believers and mystics, they trudged through the snow to what they believed would be safety. If not real security, at least they would find a temporary haven, far from burning houses and holy places, bullets, and bombs.

Their numbers reached nearly a million as they filled up camps in the muddy fields of northern Albania, Macedonia, and Montenegro. Alongside the Albanians, Slavic Muslims from the south Serbian region of Sandzhak, connecting Bosnia and Kosovo, fled to Sarajevo.

Settled in the camps, they sought medical help from volunteer teams assembled by Doctors Without Borders and similar groups. Truckloads of clothing and toys, giant containers of food, tents and blankets were shipped to alleviate misery. Families registered the names of missing members and listened, as communications were delivered. Once the tents were up, recruiters from the Kosova Liberation Army began circulating, collecting the names of those willing to undergo training for a trip back home. Media stars showed up for brief visits.

For refugees huddled across the borders from Kosovo, however, there was little in spiritual relief. Catholic Charities concentrated on getting through obstacles to assist and relocating families, and Islamic relief groups worked to improve medical aid. But ordinary priests who would have said Mass for Catholics (at least 15 percent of the Kosovar population), were largely absent, as were village imams and Bektashi (Shia -Sufi Muslim) babas.

Nevertheless, the camps saw a new feature of life in the post-Communist world: Protestant and Islamic-sectarian missionaries.
Missionaries from abroad are nothing new to Albania; the new mosque in Kukes and several others had been built with money supplied by Muslim fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia.

Although the Albanian form of Islam is so tolerant that adherents are stigmatized as non-believers, the Albanians were glad to have the new mosques.

But "converting" ordinary Albanian Muslims and Catholics into sectarian fanatics is no minor challenge.

Albanians of five denominations -- Sunni Muslims, Bektashi mystics, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Jews -- lived in harmony, including frequent intermarriage, over half a millennium. For them, religious distinctions are non-existent, for as the Albanian patriot Pashko Vasa put it, and as every Albanian today proudly emphasizes, "the religion of the Albanian is Albanianism."

A media expert in Sarajevo, Drazena Peranic, a Croatian Catholic woman married to a Bosnian Muslim, might have been expected to consider religious distinctions within a family to be secondary. But even she expressed amazement at the open-minded attitude of her Albanian colleagues. One editor, she noted, a Muslim married to a Christian Orthodox woman, was in Italy when his wife gave birth to twins. The couple had the children baptized as Catholics in the nearest parish. "I was amazed," Ms. Peranic said, "because even in Bosnia, with our tradition of intermarriage, I had never encountered such a relaxed attitude about religious loyalty. My colleague was surprised at my surprise. He said, 'what should we have done, left the children unbaptized? What counts is God, not the shape of the building where he is worshiped or the costume of the priest.'"

Foreign missionaries have assumed that 50 years of Communism and, in Kosovo, 10 years of Serbian terror had left people open to abandoning their traditional faith. Evangelical Christians from a group called Professionals International have proven assiduous, even offensive, in their recruitment.

After a Jewish service in the synagogue of Sarajevo, two young men who were Americans seated themselves at the communal table for the sabbath dinner, which is free and open to all in the Bosnian city. Their admission that they were Evangelicals rather than Jews was met with little reaction. But when a member of the Jewish congregation commented on the common origin of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in the worship of a single God, they reacted vehemently.

"Allah as the Muslims say is not the same as the God we Christians and Jews worship," Joe Horning, who comes from Chicago, said. "Muslims worship the pagan moon god." This statement was accompanied by insults directed against the Muslim prophet Muhammad. Horning did not see anything inappropriate in declaring such sentiments in a city, Sarajevo, where Jews and Muslims prize their closeness to one another, and where their supporter is Cardinal Vinko Puljic, the archbishop of Sarajevo.

Asked if he would repeat such arguments to Muslims in the streets of the city, Horning said that he had circulated through the nearby refugee camp of Rakovica, attacking Islam and calling the Albanians to become Evangelicals. A visit to Rakovica produced evidence of the impact of such preaching.

Naim Berisha, a Muslim Albanian from Prishtine in Kosovo, who made it to Bosnia with his family, commented, "We are what we are, but everybody wants a part of us -- the Christians say we must go back to our Christian past, the Muslims say we must join their kind of Islam. If we were in Prishtine and someone came to try to change us, we would be angry, but this is not our country and we need help."

Evangelicals do offer help, with strings attached. According to Osman Hamdi, another Rakovica refugee and a former Prishtine resident, whose 3-year-old son wears a pacemaker to control a congenital heart defect, the missionaries offered to take him and his family to the U.S. for special treatment, if the family would join the Protestant sect. The offer was refused.
Muslim sectarians in the camps who come to the camps from elsewhere are seldom better in their approach.

Representatives of the Ahmadiyya, an extremist Islamic movement based in Pakistan that seems to concentrate on enlisting young children and turning them into preachers, also approached Osman Hamdi with an offer of help for his son. But, as with the Evangelicals, the Ahmadis vanished from the scene when he rejected their interpretation of Islam.
"The Ahmadiyya came with copies of the Islamic holy texts in Albanian, plus pamphlets promoting their leaders, and especially their hatred of the West," said Berisha. "We kept the holy texts, as it is proper to do, and threw the pamphlets away. We told them, 'we are already Muslims, but this is not for us.'"

Tensions between rival missionary groups have flared up in the region.

The Ahmadiyya have been threatened by members of Ahl as-Sunna wa'al Jama'at, who are also active in Bosnia.

The only religious group with potential for gaining new members in Kosovo, the Catholic Church, is engaged in no missionary activities.

Rather, in the spirit of Mother Teresa, an Albanian from Macedonia whose father was murdered by Serb terrorists, Albanian Catholics have concentrated on supporting the national struggle for survival and maintaining a civil relationship between Catholics, Sunni Muslims, and Bektashi, similar to that in Sarajevo (there are almost no Albanian Orthodox believers in Kosovo.)


Every Kosovar Albanian is aware that the "national revival" of the 19th century was lead by Catholic priests and Bektashi mystics,( Sufi Muslims ) and that Catholic intellectuals and political leaders were the firmest in resisting previous Serbian aggression against the Albanians. In addition, Catholic believers suffered attacks from Serb extremists during the recent war, including the machine-gunning of a Catholic church as parishioners were leaving Mass and the torture of an Albanian Catholic priest forced by Serbian terrorists to eat a candle.
Much of the education of Kosovar and other Albanians about their Catholic heritage is a consequence of the work undertaken in Santa Clara and San Francisco, over twenty years, by the late Gjon Sinishta, the sacristan at St. Ignatius Church and founder of the Daniel Dajani, S.J., Albanian Catholic Institute at the University of San Francisco. Mr. Sinishta, who was truly the "Albanian Solzhenitsyn," made the preservation and transmission of the Albanian Catholic religious and cultural legacy the basis of his whole existence.

Mr. Sinishta's work is beginning to bear fruit. A book on his life, Te Njohim Gjon Sinishten, recently published in Albania by the Catholic scholar Matish Shestani, has become a best-seller. A copy of the book, which includes patriotic verses by Albanian Catholic clergy, was passed from hand to hand in the Rakovica camp.

Ray Frost, successor to Mr. Sinishta as sacristan at St. Ignatius and as administrator of the Albanian Catholic Institute, cautions against triumphalism in such a situation. "Gjon favored reconciliation between believers, and especially after the horrors of the recent war, he would have worked hard to minimize discord." But Mr. Frost expressed enthusiasm that Mr. Sinishta's efforts in defense of Catholic civilization have found an echo, however obscure, among the Kosovars, for whom Mother Teresa, above all, is a positive spiritual and personal model.

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Mikey,

Actually, the atheist defending Zionism issue is something I've come across as well.

As one Tel Aviv Professor said at a lecture I attended years ago, "Even the Jewish atheist knows what the God he doesn't believe in expects him to do!"

Alex

I don't think that Islam is a heresy, we christians say that a heresy is something that came from the christian religion (monophisitism, nestorianism, protestantism, mormonism). I know that Islam gad a lot of christian influence, but it didn't originated in a christian background.

I don't think that Muhammad (peace be upon him!) was a true prophet, but he was a great leader and the unification of the Arab pagan tribes worked incredibly, because of Muhammad's labour. I admire his idealistic view of the "unified religion", a religion for everyone, christians, jews and pagans.
Unfortunately his knowledge about christianity was scarce and came from herethics (Muhammad didn't read the true gospel, he read apocriphal texts, used by mystics, gnostics and herethic sects). He borrowed some ideas from the herethics, like those who rejected the crucifiction. The Qur'an states that Jesus didn't die and that Simon of Cirene took his place in the cross (a docetist thought).

Bosniacs and Albanian muslim religion is a mixture of Islam and christianity (they have "priests" and other christian vocabulary)

Dear Remie,

Yes, the issue of cultural and religious borrowing between religions is fascinating.

The Mahayana Buddhists in China more than likely borrowed much from the Assyrian Church in Tibet that, in the 9th century during the T'ang dynasty, had two Archbishops and twenty bishops before it was destroyed later on.

A Russian theologian did a study that I almost obtained a copy of that compared Orthodox practices with those in current Tibetan Buddhism to show points of comparison and similarity.

The Ethiopian Church certainly borrowed from Islamic practices, including its honour for Alexander the Great as a prophet.

Alex

Abdur,

You are right about the appreciation for Islam in America after 9/11. But I would say it has more to do with the *good* media attention Islam got as opposed to it being bad media attention. Could one find any mainstrean media source that didn't remind us for the tenth million time what *true* Islam was? On the other hand when was the last time the mainstream media reminded us what *true* Catholicism was?

Another thing Islam shows it's self a much better - *stud* - in the "manly" aspects of religion. And Muslims are certain of themselves as Muslims. Where as Catholics all to often are uncertain of themselves as Catholics - weak-kneed under discussion.

Well, Americans are definitely like cats: They are real curiosity seekers and that seems to apply to religion.
Even if Americans claim a specific religious affiliation, most seem to practice a generic form of religion/spirituality: God, country, and free enterprise.

You probably are right about some Muslim converts being attracted to Islam due to its militant and self-assured image. Islam is definitely a macho faith! And I believe many contemporary Americans (and others) are amazed--even dumbfounded--by the fact that believers would have such a strong commitment to their faith, that they would actually sacrifice their lives for it.

Americans--especially the "Dress for Success/Brand Name" generation--breakout in a cold sweat if they are asked to just sacrifice a meal. Narcissism's elite is clueless to what motivates a devotee to sacrifice his or her life for a higher cause.

Anyway:

"Macho macho man, I want to be a Musselmani man!"

---all together now!

"Macho macho man, I want to be a Musselmani man!"

That seems to be the enchanting refrain of some.

Abdur

Europe's Muslims worry bishops
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

NCR Staff

Rome

Catholics passing through Rome naturally gravitate toward St. Peter's square. In the shadow of the massive Bernini columns, many ruminate about where the church might be heading in the new millennium about to dawn.

If Catholics want to see the future, however, they might do better to visit Rome's main bus terminal instead.

There, as in other spots where one can peel back the layers of a city and see below the tourists and the local elites, travelers sometimes feel more like they're in Istanbul or Cairo than on the continent. Many signs are in Turkish or Arabic, fast food vendors sell couscous and hummus, and many of the women wear veils.

Such scenes convey a truth with vast significance for the next century: Under the impact of three decades of north-south immigration, Europe today is where Islam meets the First World.
That point has been much in the air at the Oct. 1-23 European synod, where the question of how the Catholic church here ought to position itself in the face of new diversity has been discussed in several interventions.
Some speakers have warned of an Islamic conquest of Europe.

"The 'dominion' has already begun with the 'petro-dollars,' used not to create work in the poor North African or Middle Eastern countries, but to build mosques and cultural centers in Christian countries with Islamic immigration, including Rome, the center of Christianity," said Archbishop Giuseppe Bernardini, a 72 year-old Italian who heads the Izmir archdiocese in Turkey.
Bernardini said he has lived in predominantly Muslim nations for 42 years. His comments came in a written intervention submitted to the synod

Oct. 13.

Bernardini was not the only one to sound an alarm. "History teaches us that peaceful cohabitation between Islam and Christianity is precarious," said Alain Besan�on, a member of the Institut de France and a synod participant. He warned that "a church uncertain of its faith is endangered by conversion to Islam."
Besan�on called on the church to educate its members to resist Islamic encroachment.

In contrast, Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels -- while acknowledging the challenge of dialogue with fundamentalist forms of Islam -- challenged Catholicism to support the positive elements of the Islamic faith. "We have much to learn," Danneels said, such as "the transcendence of God, prayer and fasting, and the impact of religion on social life."

Archbishop Karl Lehmann of Germany told journalists that Christians should better understand the internal dynamics of Islam in Europe before passing judgment. Fundamentalism is merely one element, Lehmann said; there are also moderates who would welcome Christian cooperation.

The contrast among the four points of view suggests the basic choice facing church leaders: whether to embrace Europe's new pluralism or to fortify the church against it.

"There is a desire among many Muslims in Europe to work out a form of Islam that is unique," said Jesuit Fr. Tom Michel, who runs the secretariat of interreligious dialogue for the Jesuit order worldwide. "The question is whether we'll meet them halfway."

The Vatican's official 1999 count puts the number of Catholics in the world at just over 1 billion. While estimates vary, most experts peg the total number of Muslims at around the 1 billion mark as well.

Since the 1970s, waves of Muslim immigration from North Africa and the Middle East have transformed the demographics of Europe. Because their families tend to have birth rates higher than the European average -- parts of Northern Europe would actually be de-populating were it not for immigration -- the Islamic presence in Europe has risen dramatically.

According to U.N. statistics, the Islamic population grew by more than 100 percent in Europe from 1989 to 1998, to 14 million, representing approximately 2 percent of the population. (Over the same period, the Muslim population in the United States grew by 25 percent to 4.9 million.)

The proof of what's happening is on the streets. Sections of Paris look and sound more like the West Bank than the Left Bank, and Marseilles is poised to become the first European city with a non-European majority. Some estimates hold that within 25 years, one in four residents of France will practice Islam.

A resident who knows the scene in Rome says that in many of the city's famous Italian restaurants -- long considered carriers of Roman culture -- the cooking is often done by Egyptians.

Advocates of pluralism welcome the new diversity. Across the continent, however, there is also a darker view, one that sees foreigners as competitors for jobs, for social services and -- perhaps most of all -- for cultural ascendancy.

The European mood can be glimpsed from the Oct. 3 national elections in Austria, where the far-right Freedom Party captured almost 30 percent of the vote, by far the best showing yet for an extremist party in a European election. The party ran on an anti-immigrant platform, even resurrecting a term for "over-foreignization" that had been taboo in the German-speaking world because of its association with Nazi racial policies.

"We've got the Poles who concentrate on car theft. We've got the former Yugoslavs who are burglary experts. We've got the Turks who are superbly organized in the heroin trade. And we've got the Russians who are experts in blackmail and mugging," said Jorg Haider, the outspoken leader of the Freedom Party in a speech leading up to the election.
Haider has proposed segregating Austrian schoolchildren from foreigners and limiting some social benefits to ethnic Austrians.

Papal olive branch

At the synod, the talk has been nowhere near this blunt. Differences over Islam for participants here have been less about matters of substance than mood. Some accent the threat posed by Islam's growth, while others stress the need to acknowledge its diversity. A welcoming reaction, they say, could help shape the future direction of Islam in Europe.

The anxiety over Islam came into sharp focus at the synod through Bernardini and Besan�on's calls to arms.

"How can we ignore in all this a program of expansion and re-conquest?" Bernardini asked. He urged the pope to call a special synod or symposium on immigration, with special focus on the problem of Islam. The event should include the Reformed and Orthodox churches, Bernardini said.

Bernardini said that while it was necessary to distinguish between "the fanatic and violent minority" and the "peaceful and honest" majority in Islam, he believed even peaceful Moslems would, without hesitation, "follow orders given in the name of Allah."

Bernardini said a Moslem leader once told him: "Thanks to your democratic laws, we will invade you. Thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you."

There are between 4 million and 5 million Muslims in France today, Besan�on said, roughly the same as the number of practicing Catholics (the total population of France is 58 million). Both the numbers Besan�on uses and the comparison he draws, however, are disputed.
He offered several examples, including the Nestorians, the Monophysites of Syria and Egypt, the Donatists of the Magreb, and the Spanish Aryans.

All are Christian communities in the Mediterranean basin that broke away from the church of Rome in the first millennium, most of whose members over time adopted Islam.

Most provocatively, Besan�on said Catholics must stop using "faulty expressions" such as "the three revealed religions," "the three religions of Abraham" and "the three religions of the Book" to refer to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The suggestion was that these terms implied a false equivalence between Christianity and Islam.

This last point was viewed by some as an especially remarkable statement, given that the pope himself has used the language of Christians and Muslims as "brothers in Abraham" at least five times -- in a homily in Ankara, Turkey, in 1979; in a radio address to the peoples of Asia in 1981; in an address to Muslim workers in Mainz, Germany in 1980; in an address to a Rome colloquium in 1985; and in a homily in Gambia in 1992.

Excerpts of the pope's talks appear in Recognize the Spiritual Bonds which Unite Us: 16 years of Christian-Muslim Dialogue, a 1994 publication of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue.

"As I have often said in other meetings with Muslims, your God and ours is one and the same, and we are brothers and sisters in the faith of Abraham," the pope said in Rome in 1985.

At a synod news conference, a special representative appointed by the pope, Archbishop J�zef Miroslaw Zycinski of Lublin, Poland, seemed to put some distance between Besan�on and the bishops. Besan�on was "expressing his personal opinion," Zycinski said, and "we cannot censor him."

Yet Zycinski clearly shared some of Besan�on's concern. "If Islam evolves in the direction of greater religious openness, then there is the possibility of dialogue," Zycinski said. "But if a fundamentalist version dominates in which religion is mixed with politics, then optimism will not be justified."

One irony is that this sense of a looming conflict comes under a papacy that has dedicated enormous energies to opening contacts with Islam. John Paul II has met with Muslims more than 50 times, a number that, according to experts, surpasses the total number of encounters with all previous popes combined.

Interfaith observers say John Paul enjoys greater credibility across the Islamic world, in part because his opposition to the U.S.-led Gulf War and the sanctions in Iraq has demonstrated that the pontiff is no longer "the chaplain of NATO," as Pius XII had once been dubbed. If the pope does visit Iraq in December, in defiance of strong reservations expressed by the Clinton administration, it will be another significant confidence-building measure.

Threat exaggerated

Moreover, Catholics and Islamic nations have in recent years made common cause at United Nations-sponsored population conferences, opposing developed Western nations and many women's groups on issues such as birth control and abortion.
In the eyes of some, however, these acts of cooperation conceal a more fundamental tug-of-war for the religious balance of power, a contest that in coming years will be played out in Europe as well as Africa and North America.

Speakers at the synod have reflected this view. Bishop Klemens Pickel, responsible for Latin-rite Catholics in Russia, suggested that Catholics and Orthodox could make common cause in their resistance to the encroachments of Islam. "We both share the consciousness of being in a defensive position" against Islam, Pickel said.

Even Nigerian Cardinal Francis Arinze, head of the Vatican's agency on inter-religious dialogue, seemed to endorse the anxiety about Islam.

"Many lay faithful know too little about the Catholic faith," he said. "The risk when such Catholics meet other believers is therefore great."
Arinze called for training of more Catholic specialists on other religions, "especially Islam," focusing on "how to meet their followers" -- a line that some observers interpreted to mean, "how to resist their advances."

A Catholic specialist in dialogue with Muslims, however, told NCR that fears about Islam are often inflated.
For one thing, dramatic growth in the Islamic population does not change the fact that Muslims remain a significant cultural minority. They are at most 2 percent of Europe's total population.

"The numbers get exaggerated by everyone," said Jesuit Fr. Tom Michel, head of the secretariat for inter-religious affairs for the Jesuit order. "Politicians want to make the numbers seem larger because it generates fear they can exploit," he said. "On the Islamic side, there's a tendency to exaggerate as a kind of boast."

Moreover, Michel said that comparisons such as Besan�on's -- that stack the total number of Moslems against the number of practicing Catholics -- are a classic case of mixing apples and oranges.

"Recent research shows that when Muslims enter heavily secularized European societies, they do not practice in greater percentages than do Christians," Michel said.
While there are difficulties in defining what it means for a Moslem to practice the faith -- whether one considers Friday prayer, taking part in the Ramadan fast, or performing the five daily prayers obligatory under Islamic law -- Michel said the general point is that European Muslims seem no more cohesive or zealous than European Catholics.

A better comparison would stack the total number of baptized Catholics against the total number of Muslims, with a result that would seem far less menacing, Michel said.
Michel acknowledged that some Muslim leaders have called for an aggressive effort to spread Islam in Europe to rescue the West from moral and spiritual decline. Yet there is little evidence this is happening.
"Some Europeans are becoming Muslims, but it also works the other way -- some Muslims are becoming Christian," Michel said. Some estimates, for example, are that at least 10 percent of the people preparing for adult baptism in France come from a Muslim background.

Indeed, many experts on religious movements say that Europeans today are much more likely to convert to an aggressively evangelical group such as the Jehovah's Witnesses than to Islam. There are 32 Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Halls in Rome, for example, in contrast to one mosque.

Other church leaders say the notion of Islam as a unified force is more caricature than reality. At a session for German-speaking journalists at the synod, Lehmann stressed there is more internal pluralism within Islam than many Christians perceive.

In his diocese, Lehmann said, are five mosques that were under moderate leadership until the past year, when fundamentalist elements moved in. Now the moderates hope to build a sixth mosque and have turned to Lehmann for assistance.

Some Christians complain about the lack of religious freedom within Islamic societies, charging it is hypocritical for Muslims to demand fair treatment in the First World when their governments are unwilling to grant it at home.

Here, too, Michel said the picture is often distorted. "When people talk about the lack of religious freedom, they almost always mean Saudi Arabia, where you are forbidden to have priests," Michel said. "But go next door to Oman, where the Sultan has given permission to build four new parishes. Go to Dubai, which has the largest Christian church in the Middle East."

Some futurists expect that the Islamic presence in Europe will, in the long run, have a greater impact on Islam than on Europe. Raised to appreciate cultural values such as pluralism and democracy, a new generation of Muslim elites may push Islam in a more moderate direction worldwide.
Michel said this is a possible scenario.

Another is that xenophobia and hostility will push Muslims into a defensive position, exacerbating tensions between Islamic nations and the West.
National Catholic Reporter, October 22, 1999
Top of page
�

New Horizons in Turkish-Greek Relations


Turkish-Greek relations entered a totally new phase in July 1999, a date which mark the beginning of political dialogue on bilateral issues between the two countries. For years after the "Kardak" crisis which brought Turkey and Greece to the brink of war over a deserted islet in the Eastern Aegean and almost immediately after the capture of �calan, chief of the PKK terrorist organization while leaving the Greek Embassy in Kenya where he had been provided safe heaven by the Greek authorities, such a development was definitely unexpected.


Back in June 1999, Turkish Foreign Minister �smail Cem and Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou instructed their respective ministries to initiate a process of consultation and joint work on bilateral issues. In July 1999, Turkish and Greek joint committees started to hold talks in a spirit of cooperation and friendship, which yielded very positive results.


Nine agreements on promoting cooperation in several fields ranging from environment to combating terrorism have been concluded during the exchange of official visits by Foreign Ministers Cem and Papandreou in January and February 2000 -first of such in the last 40 years.


Rapprochement between the Turkish and Greek peoples after the devastating earthquakes each suffered in 1999 provided another stimulus to the intense diplomatic efforts for improvement of bilateral relations.


If the tragedy that the two countries survived had one positive aspect, it was the reaffirmation of human solidarity by neighboring Turkish and Greek peoples. In the wake of the earthquake disasters, they reached out to one another in a magnificent manner and proven that deep down they are friends, not enemies. On both shores of the Aegean, after decades of tensions, Greeks and Turks discovered that they care for each other much more than what was generally presumed.


Following the earthquakes, Turkey and Greece co-sponsored a joint resolution for the very first time in the history of the UN, that is one on the establishment of a "Standby Disaster Response Unit" and they have also instituted a political consultations mechanism.

The endorsement of Turkey's candidacy to the EU on 10 December Helsinki Summit was another manifestation of the progress they have achieved. In the context of consultations between the Political Directors of respective Foreign Ministries, they have established a joint mechanism concerning the work that is necessary in preparation for Turkey's membership to the EU.

Recent proof of improved relations between Turkey and Greece was Turkey's participation in NATO's Dynamic Mix 2000 exercise which took place in Greece between May 20-June 10. In the final phase of the exercise, a company of 150 Turkish marines landed on the beach at Kyparissia on the West coast of the Greek Peloponesian peninsula. During the course of the exercise, a squadron of Turkish F-16 fighters arrived at the Anhialos base in Central Greece, which likewise had never occurred before in the history of the two NATO countries after the Cyprus crisis of 1974.

It is expected that the improvement of bilateral relations between the two countries will significantly change the economic and political landscape of the entire region.

Rapprochement between Turkey and Greece appears to constitute a cornerstone for security in the Balkans and a guarantee for the security of investments. As the two countries leave the period of political conflicts and enter one of cooperation, huge economic opportunities will emerge for the both countries and the Balkans in general. Turkey shares six centuries of history with the rest of Balkan nations.

Its investments in the region stand at $ 1.2 billion and projected to exceed $ 1.5 billion by the end of the year. Turkey's trade with Greece totaled $ 700 million in 1999, while Chairman of the Turkish-Greek Business Council Mr. �ar�k Tara forwards an ambitious forecast of $ 5 billion in bilateral trade between the two countries by the year 2005.

Recent rapprochement between Turkey and Greece seems to receive very positive echoes from the international community. Turkish and Greek Foreign Ministers received "Statesman of the Year" award from the East-West Institute in New York on 2 May 2000 for their diplomatic efforts to bring a rapprochement between the two countries. They also met American Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

Today, despite the rather recent rapprochement and huge boost of outpouring sympathy when destructive earthquakes struck both countries last year, the main issues of conflict, i.e. problems related to the Aegean and the violations of the rights of the Turkish Minority of Western Thrace by Greece, are still pending. Quick and mutually acceptable solutions to these questions are awaited.

Turkey, having the support of the public opinion as well as of the international community, is determined to widen the scope of cooperation and dialogue with Greece and dwell on the issues of conflict.
-------------------------------------

�

I don't see the point in that. It is not so good to have the present in mind (i.e. the holocaust) when you study the past. You can completely miss out on context. Like the empire in an episode of Star Wars, analogies of that sort can strike back. What about all the Canaanites that were “butchered” in the Old Testament? Besides in those days Jews had their fair share of slaughtering Christians, Christians their share of Jews and Muslims their fair share of both.

According to the eminent scholar E.A.W. Budge, who studied and translated many documents from this period, the Jewish king Dhu Nuwas (called Finhas in Ethiopian tradition) in Nagran, South Arabia, “hated Christians…[he] slew men, women and children—burned their houses and crops. Christian virgins were raped, tortured and burnt with fire.”

The heroic Ethiopian Emperor at the time, Saint Kaleb (recognized as a saint in the Eastern and Roman churches), was requested by both Alexandrian Patriarch Timothy and the Byzantine Emperor Justin I to intervene on behalf of the Christians. Not caring for any Chalcedon/ non-Chalcedon split, Emperor Kaleb responded and invaded South Arabia and saved the Christians. He placed a Christian in power, built Churches and ensured their safety with 10,000 Ethiopian Christian troops that he left in Nagran. The great saint of the Ethiopian Church, Yared, who is the author of the Ethiopian Hymnary wrote a hymn on the Nagran Martyrs in Metshaf Deguwa:

Thou art called the blood of paradise (garden) of thine martyrs,
Their blood flooded as water…
Peace be unto three, O great land of Nagran,
Whose stars are bright, whose trees are joyful,
Whose clergy are scholars, whose deacons are messengers and
Whose faithful are members of the holy Christian Church.

You also refer to Islam as the “greatest oppressor” of Orthodoxy. Christians oppress Muslims (Kosovo), Muslims oppress Christians (Egypt; Turkey), Jews oppress Muslims and Christians (Israel), and Christians oppress Jews (Eastern Europe). I don't think anyone can do a whole lot of finger pointing without looking hypocritical and self-righteous.


Alex,

Another place I also read you making the remark that Ethiopian Muslims and Christians attend the same gatherings. I would not read too much into that. Muslims may attend some of our celebrations but we never attend any of theirs. Just as I suppose in Egypt, some of the Copts may attend Muslim festivals while none of the Muslims attend the Christian celebrations. It probably comes down to who is the dominant one in the area. Also, if there is any connection between Muhammad (PBUH) and any current of Christianity I would look at Bilal, the Ethiopian who was very close to him. Bilal was the first one to call the Muslim faithful to prayer and I have heard an argument by one researcher to the effect that Bilal, was a Christian and influenced the prophet.

Not in Ethiopia. We practice circumcision of boys eight days after birth. Observe clean and unclean meat as well as observe two Sabbaths; the Sabbath on Saturday while Sunday is called “The Lords Sabbath.” No church is consecrated until there is an Ark of the Covenant inside; otherwise it is just a building. In fact the internal structure of our church is Hebraic and the altar which the holy Eucharist is prepared on is the Ark. There is a dynamic transitional relation between All-Holy Virgin Mary and the Ark. We equally recognize and refer to both old and new testaments even as only the Gospel (Wengel) is venerated during Mass.

I don't see why. If anyone knew Christianity they would know that Gods highest expression of love was his own crucifixion and that: “By this we know love, because he laid down his life for us. AND WE OUGHT to lay down our life for the brethren (I John 3: 16).”




That is all fine but about Jesus ours says: “"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,' says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty' (Revelation 1: 8)”

I need you to clear something up. Jesus definitely said that he was the Son of God. If you acknowledge him as a prophet then you have to come to terms with statements that he made. In Al-Islam, is it possible for a prophet to be a liar? If so do you guys believe that Jesus was a liar? Let me say in advance that if you claim that Christ is a liar then we can not call Islam a heresy, but there is something else we can call it—blasphemous. Of course that is only in the context of theology; no political, social, or economic statement is implied.
Finally, “like the Jews of Spain and Ethiopia, they were cruelly expelled from the land of their birth.” (?) Ethiopian Jews were not expelled insomuch as they were “exodused” by Israel.

God be with you all.

Aklie Semaet

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:
[QB]


That is all fine but about Jesus ours says: “"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,' says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty' (Revelation 1: 8)”

"I need you to clear something up. Jesus definitely said that he was the Son of God. If you acknowledge him as a prophet then you have to come to terms with statements that he made. In Al-Islam, is it possible for a prophet to be a liar? If so do you guys believe that Jesus was a liar? Let me say in advance that if you claim that Christ is a liar then we can not call Islam a heresy, but there is something else we can call it—blasphemous."

If Islam's interpretation of the mission and life of Prophet Jesus--peace be upon him-- was only predicated on what is contained in the canonical Christian scriptures, then Christians would have every right to believe that Muslims are nothing more than blasphemers.

However, Islam has been heavily influenced by the so-called Gnostic Christian scriptures, which write an icon of the Christ that can--and does--vary quite significantly from the canonical Christian scriptures.

It is accurate to say that our 'Gospel' tradition of the life of Christ is not predicated on the canonical New Testament, but finds its source within the holy traditions of the Gnostic Christians of Egypt and Arabia and Mikra Asia.

Salaam,

Abdur

Dear Abdur,

Thank you for your clarification. I must say however that it still begs the question. What exactly is the mainstream or predominant view in Al-Islam with regard to the Gospels? Do Muslim scholars think that they are fabricated? Do they think that they are tampered with? Do they think that if not Jesus then one of the Apostles was a liar? Please clarify this.

Selam

Aklie Semaet

Dear Aklie,

I would venture to say that the scholars and the populace by large in the Middle East have one word for the canonical Gospels that succinctly expresses their view of it, "muhar'raf".

The alleged corrupting of the canonical Jewish and Christian scripures are one of the reasons why, in the Islamic view, Jews and Christians lost their divine mandate and why God brought down his final revelation, concluding it with the seal of the prophets, Muhammad.

As Abdur correctly points out, the Muslims look favorably on the Gnostic "Christian" texts, which contradict the canonical Scriptures in many ways, such as in denying the bodily Crucifixion. They would definitely be seen as more credible than the canonical books.

In IC XC
Samer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SamB:
[QB]Dear Aklie,

".... denying the bodily Crucifixion."


"No one can die for my sins, but I must die to my sins."


--Bosnian Muslim proverb.

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Friends,

Yes, Aklie's question is an important one.

The Gnostic "Christian" texts never made any pretense to be "Christian" at all.

In fact, Gnosticism simply attempted to promote its own philosophy (much of it that would also be opposed to orthodox Islam) under the "cover" of Christian titles to try and convert Christians to their cause.

There certainly is a Christian Gnosis, such as that that was practiced by the Coptic Christian Therapeutae in Upper Egypt.

But if one examines their Liturgy of St Dionysius the Areopagite (that can be found on-line), one sees that their theology is totally Orthodox Christian.

With respect to Jesus and the Gospels, I have read in Islamic texts that Islamic philosophers have affirmed generally that incarnation would be the BEST way for God to unite with man. Al-Hallaj came close to this when he taught that man was an incarnation of God.

In addition, there have been Islamic teachers who have promoted acceptance of the historical Crucifixion of Jesus within Islam, as mentioned by Fulton Sheen and others.

Islam is not inflexible on its interpretation of the Person of Jesus, fundamentalism notwithstanding.

I personally believe that the real Identity of Jesus will be revealed to Muslims directly through their existing relationship to Him.

Alex

Abdur,

Very well put. Proverbs after all are the best modicum for expressing things clearly.

Aside from the horror Islam sees in God allowing one of the prophets to expire in such a manner, what you post illustrates another classical objection to the doctrine of the Redemption. That is why as I remember Robert Sweiss saying, amongst the many names of God in the Koran, there is no "mukhal'lis", or "savior, redeemer, etc."

In IC XC
Samer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:


I have read in Islamic texts that Islamic philosophers have affirmed generally that incarnation would be the BEST way for God to unite with man. Al-Hallaj came close to this when he taught that man was an incarnation of God.

In addition, there have been Islamic teachers who have promoted acceptance of the historical Crucifixion of Jesus within Islam, as mentioned by Fulton Sheen and others.

Islam is not inflexible on its interpretation of the Person of Jesus, fundamentalism notwithstanding.
---------------------------------------

Interesting points, Alex.

I just want to remind readers that these theological positions would be adhered to by very few Muslims--unless they could be accepted metaphorically or mystically as opposed to literally--since the concept of incarnate gods is absolutely foreign to the Quran and the Hadiths, etc.

The worship of a sentient being--man or animal --is considered idolatry and an abomination to the vast majority of Islamic scholars and devotees, even by most mystical Sufis.

Those who believe that God would manifest Himself through and in a chosen one would reject the belief in a Divine Person who is --in essence --a god-man in the Christian sense.

For Muslim scholars, the concept of the transcendence of God cannot be compromised or violated, nor may any belief that borders on idolatry become a core belief of Islam.

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur - Islam must compromise this view in the sense that, if God cannot become incarnate, then God's transcendance is indeed compromised for His transcendance is confined to the supernatural; not allowing Him to break into the natural, physical world.

In Christ,
ALity

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Ality ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ality:
[QB]

Abdur - Islam must compromise this view in the sense that, if God cannot become incarnate, then God's transcendance is indeed compromised for His transcendance is confined to the supernatural; not allowing Him to break into the natural, physical world.

In Christ,
ALity

I disagree, since the Transcendent One is the Creator and Sustainer of the the cosmos, both physical and spiritual.

That which creates and sustains cannot be alienated from what It brought into being; neither can the
Transcendent One be limited to or contained by Its own creation, especially in the form of a sentient being.

Salaam,

Abdur

Abdur,

Either I'm missing something or you fail to really grasp Christian theology on the incarnation of Christ?

I fail to see your logic on "conatianing" or not "containing" the Transcendent One.

First of all God is not subject to our natural laws. He is it's author yes, but not it's product.

Of course all Christian belief regarding the Logos - the Incarnated Word, is an act subject in the end totally to faith. But I believe, even given that, by reason man can come to appreciate *This* by the logic of theological study.

I'm not entirely certain on how one should best approach this in any theological discussion, but with my best uneducated guess, I will jump in and say that we should first begin with what Scripture calls God "emptying" Himself into what is the Logos. We then must look and understand how this Logos relates to the ever present Father and how that *love* from the two that is the one, known to us as the Holy Spirit, which the three were still, was then, is now - the *One* God. And how all of this means life to us.

It would be much to clever as far as I'm concerned to say that God can do whatever He wants, or by the same token to say that God can't be "contained". [Of course this is why "revelation" of God is so important to humanity.]

I agree with the Buddhist who proclaim divinity within each and everyone of us (humans - and all life forms). I don't think Thomas Aquinas would disagree with my rather simple statment here. But I would expound on that a little further - and this is where I really verge in diagreement with you - and say that I believe in that point in all creation in what I believe Thomas Merton refered to as "point verge". That would be that point in all creation in which lies that essences of God, the *first* from which all other accidental attributes cometh from.

This would suggest a point of *good* in rats, cockroaches, flees, mad dogs, the worst human, and even a point of good in Satan himself. -- INTERESTING. [Even your "sustain" theory would imply God holding some intimate relation with the Devil - no?]

But yes, I say that the empty factor is where the theological discussion of the Inacarnated Word must begin.

Maximus,

Since the Christian belief is that the the universe and all that is created is created through the Logos-Word, then, according to you, Jesus the Logos created evil---as well as good. Can good and/or evil create themselves? If so, they are gods.

The Creator is not controlled or limited by Its creation, therefore, it is fallacious to assume that God's essence contains evil and the derivatives of evil.


......This is a fascinating subject. More later. Thank you for indulging me.

Salaam,

Abdur

Abdur,

You are right up to the point that you say the Logos Created evil (well as you see it according to Christian theology). The Logos created evil no more then the Logos created good.

Life comes from the Logos, that is in so far as the Logos divinity. The Logos humanity aside, the Logos giveth potential and life. Such as the sperm and egg that thus gives potentiality to the child developing - this act of potentiality is life.

So we now have life from the Logos, corporal and non-corporal beings. What accompanies these lifes are potentialities or degrees of potentialities subject to it's nature. It is from this gift of free will deriving from our higher degree of potentiality that gives rise to the potential for evil (and even good).

Now that we are at evil. Evil is not it's self a cause, it is not even it's self a source of poteniality (thus destroying all argument of it being a god), but rather it is an *act*. It has to be an act if God is good. For what can we Know of good, but the rightful disposition of "Godliness". Evil occurs when the act of *will* choses to live counter to "Godliness".

So good is actually God, one could say, or at least those acts that are in accordance with God's given harmony.

For any thing to be a god or a god per se (as we use the terms in this discussion) it must be able to cause. To cause potentiality and act. Neither good or bad can do this as they can only be discussed as either *act* or *attribute* not cause it's self.

In other words, God created evil, since, as scripture says of the Logos, "all things were made by him, and without him, was not any thing made that was made... ."

Even potentiality must exist in the mind of the Creator, or it cannot come into being. Potentiality cannot proceed from a vacuum or from itself.

If it could proceed independently, it would exist in an autonomous state; a state that would exist outside of the creative act and mind of God, which would mean that God is neither omniscient or omnipotent, or worse....sovereign.

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

You are right except for your point in your first paragraph.

Yes God is in Himself Potentiality, act, being, essence, and cause. God is first, I, Christian theology would not dispute this. And know matter what proceedes from us, proceedes only from us because God gave us life... and so forth our potentiality we derive from that first potentiality which is God. But as it is wrong to say that our essence is the essence of God so it is wrong for us to suggest our potentiality is the potentiality of God. God is first, we are second, I suppose the machinary we create is third. But though the machinary we create has potentaility - to the extent that it is depended on our effort - it can not be said logicaly to posses the same potentiality that we humans posses. So I think logicaly - at least Aquinas would say so - that our potentaility can't be said to be that of God. So what I'm getting at I guess is that unlike God who is first and perfection, we are second and lack perfection - logicaly being that our being is depended on His being.

Aside from what kids our taught in Catholic grade school or high school for that matter. True and indepth Christian theology would hesitate to mention [things] that derive from the Creators "mind". For us such comprehension is far to limiting on understanding God, but yes I admit talk as such is frequent amongst us Christians to such a point that you have Bishops that will say things - in regard to 9/11 - like "God was shocked to see all those souls" - (after they died of course). The sort of grade school explanations that I don't like, but is helpful to many others try to grasp things I guess.

An Your use of Scripture above is of course subject to interpretation. You must remember that as a Muslim (well minus you as a Sufi) the reading of the Koran is along the lines of Protestant reading of the Bible. But! The same study or reading of Scripture does not apply as well to Orthodox or Catholic.

So my reading of that portion of Scripture you offered - *In Conjunction With The Teaching Of the Church (Bishops)* - and in conjunction with the tradition of our ancient and present theologians. --- No I do not concur with the conclusion of your assesment of that portion of Scripture.

I haven't read far enough down to know if this was covered yet, but let me ask anyway.

Is it really proper for us mortals to put limits on what God can and cannot do?

If the Transcendent One wanted to take upon Himself a human body and become one of us, and still be the Transcendent One without jeopardising His humanity (and the natural limitations that entails), who am I, existing only by His grace, to say He can't?

In this sense, Christianity requires the most faith, in my opinion. God becoming a man? It was Tertullian (I think?) who said that he believed because it was all entirely too crazy to be anything but the truth.

May we all have the faith to let God do and be whatever He wants, and not try to impose limits on the Limitless One.

Glory to You, Whom the highest heavens cannot contain, and yet You were contained in the womb of the Virgin!

--from the Syrian Liturgy