In the Orthodox Churches, is water required to run on the head at baptism for validity? I have viewed some videos of baptisms in a Orthodox Church where the priest held the baby and immersed just the body and not the head.

The word BAPTISM means to be immersed...therefore the best way to baptize is to immerse. The Orthodox Church doesn't usually use the word 'validity' (that's a more Western scholastic term)...but in clinical baptism (if a child or adult is hospitalized and seriously ill), it is usually considered sufficient to pour water over the head with the form, "The servant of God is baptized in the name of the Father...etc." If the child/person regains their health, then the immersion can be done at that time. I remember some years ago, Fr. Thomas Hopko was lecturing about 'proper baptism' (and he did a beautiful job, I might add)...and at the end there were questions. A very well-spoken man from a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parish asked if it were sufficient to pour the water during baptism...and Fr. Hopko was very negative about that. The gentleman then said (knowing the answer)...excuse me Father, but where were YOU baptized? When Father told the gentleman the answer, he said, "Isn't that a Carpatho-Russian parish that would have baptized you by pouring in those days?" And Father had to admit then, that he himself had been baptized in this way. The point is that the 'sign value' is not as complete or full with pouring, but I (personally feel...for what it's worth) that the baptism is complete with pouring the water if necessary...and that we shouldn't get too caught up in legalistic questions. On Pentecost did the 3 thousand get baptized by immersion? One would have to doubt it...since they seem to have been baptized on the spot. They were probably sprinkled...but nevertheless, they were illumined by Christ and became one with His Body, the Church.

Maybe other Fathers or lay theologians here can correct me...or add more.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

Father,

Thank you for your comments. But must the head go under the water at immersion for the baptism to be considered properly administered?

Mike!---that was my point! I was trying to stir you away from questions that can be, well, 'pharisaical' shall we say? Should the head go under too?---probably, but I know that probably most priests these days don't do it...they're a bit timid about it. some ' scoop ' water over the head after (which seems pointless)...and others don't even bother. Leave it up to the Lord Mike...the intention of the priest is to baptize the child properly...let's leave their techniques up to THEIR consciences and to the Lord?

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory

Many of the early baptismal fonts that we have found are little more than tubs and paintings indicate that there was a practice of people standing in the tub and water being poured (liberally) over them.

The earliest description of baptism shows it taking place at a river where full immersion was possible.

I think what Fr. Gregory has said is important: the fullest sign is present in immersion, but when we get lost in the "rules and regulations" we forget what it is we are dealing with -- a mystery!

There is no doubt that sprinkling, pouring and immsersion are all efficacious. But that's not the issue (or, at least, shouldn't be). We need to always allow our symbols to speak to us, and they do so most clearly when we use them to their fullest.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Mike, we recently had an adult baptism at our parish after Theophany. I brought in a cattle tank so we could fully immerse him.

The Byzantine symbolism of burial and rising out of the water is important with the full immersion.

Fr. Gregory,

Please forgive for sounding so legalistic for there is a reason for it, I am Latin Catholic What I guess I am saying is where does one draw the line? What constitutes immersion? Should it be the immersion of the baby's body up to his head or should it be of the whole body including the head? You said But what if the priest's technique is just to pour water over one of the hands of the child? Where would the line be drawn? I just think it is so very necessary to have all of these rules so that people know for sure that the Sacrament(Mystery) was conferred validly.

Bless me Father,
Michael

The Didache prescribed the earliest written "rules" on baptism, thus:

The above is quoted from "www.ocf.org" and this translation used by the Orthodox is similar to all available translations. The only difference from the Catholic version is on the use of "living" water instead of "running" water.

These rules written by the "12 Apostles" on baptism are rooted in "common sense," not on "legalism."

Amado

May I answer this question from a practical POV?

Fr. Gregory gives the correct answer (not that anyone doubts that!). Baptizo means primarily "to immerse or to wash." In the Orthodox Church baptism is always done by immersion. If some chose to continue their former errors, then this should be corrected.

However, to the question, yes, it is not always possible to absolutely and completely ensure that every square inch of a baby's body (or an adult, for example) is completely immersed - this would include the head. For example, in my parish, we have a very narrow and deep baptismal font - more like a large, tall soup pot really. Yes, a full immersion is possible, but it requires that I would dip the baby up and down three times, fully immersing him or her with great difficulty. Yes, I did this with my daughter, and then basically felt the wrath of my Matushka later that day! (Natalie came up coughing a choking each time, no matter that I tried to cover her mouth.)

There is a good technique to infant baptism, but it requires the proper baptismal font. Leaning the baby somewhat forward, with one hand around the belly, while covering the nose and mouth with the other hand is the best way. But the only safe thing that I can do now (for fear of irate parents, coughing babies, and law suits) is to dip the baby up the neck, or there about, and then cup water in my hands, pouring it over the head. (Even this requires space that is not available, depending on the size of the baby. Plus you have to take one hand off of a slippery, kicking and screaming baby - not an easy task.) There is simply not enough room to lean the baby forward.

So, we do the best we can, and leave it to God to supply that which is lacking.

Priest Thomas

I think this should be of interest: One day many years ago, I was talking to an old Jewish woman. She told me that her Rabbi had a group of people sit in a running river, and imagine that the water surrounding them was God encompassing them and protecting them.

If one should ever wonder where the 'concept' of Baptism in water, ever came from. Now I was baptized in the river Jordan. Not my real one though, just a symbolic one.

Now, as a Greek, I can take the title of Hadji, (a Hadj is a Muslim pilgramage to Mecca). That would make me Hadjzenovia.

Zenovia

Dear Friends,
I've just uploaded some pics of my daughter Ava's baptism in the Greek Orthodox Church. It is clear that Father did not fully immerse her in the water, but rather cupped the water over her head.
Also let it be known that she did not cry during the entire process., only after when there were 4 women frantically trying to decide how to dress her.

Hopefully the link works. Just click on the picture.

baptism [kodakgallery.com]

Dear Brad,

Thanks for that picture of adorable Ava.

I was hoping that you might have posted more pictures of the big day, including her wearing her new baptismal outfit! (After all that fussing over dressing her, I am sure that she looked adorable.)

May God bless the 'neophotisto'...(Greek for the 'newly enlightened one' and used for children that just got baptized).

Fondly,
In Christ,
Alice

Brad,

Ava is adorable!

I thought you had decided to raise her Catholic, however.

To All,

Someone earlier said that surely sprinkling, pouring, and immersion were all valid. But when I converted to the Church I was explicitly told that sprinkling was not a valid way to baptize. I had to get my mom to contact our old Methodist minister as to how, exactly, I was baptized (turns out it was pouring - - - so I was validly baptized already). In case of doubt, my priest was prepared to do a conditional baptism. I had to fully ascertain that it wasn't by sprinkling.

Logos Teen

Alice and Teen thanks for your lovely comments.

Teen - I will educate and catechise Ava as much as possible from both Eastern and Western aspects. but always noting the difference. Ava will attend the Catholic School system in Toronto. The Catholic School board recognizes an Orthodox baptism and permits EO and OO registrations. The difficult time will be when Ava gets older and all her friends will be making their first Communion.
I believe that God has chosen this path for me and has put me to the test. This is my Cross and I will pick it up and follow Him.

Brad

Dear Brad,

Actually, I too would have had a problem since there was no way my parents would have allowed me to attend RC First Communion or Confirmation!

I remember when everyone genuflected in Church and I refused - I was called back by our nun-principal and ordered to genuflect.

Happily, they didn't force me to Cross myself the "wrong" way!

I have a friend who is head of a religion department in a private Catholic school - and he is an Orthodox priest.

Perhaps I could connect the two of you at some point later on and he might be of assistance to you in this regard . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

It seems to me that my wife, my in-laws and the rest of her family would not object to Ava receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. I think the problem is me. It would be so much easier for me to just raise her Catholic (Latin with a bit of Eastern) but my conscience has got the better of me.

As an aside, my former manager joked about only hiring Latin Catholics because we all have a guilty conscience and thus our work ethics is strong.

I would very much appreciate it if you could put me in touch with Father at your earliest convenience. There are many questions I need answering.

Thank Alex,

Brad

Dear Brad,

Here is his website:

http://www.asna.ca/parish/

Tell him "Alex" sent you!

Alex

Dear Friends
Earlier this year there was a baby baptised at the Eastern Catholic parish where I sometimes go to Divine Liturgy with my daughter. The baby was fully immersed 3 times, dipped completely under the water. He never cried but looked very spluttery and surprised each time he came out of the water. The sweetest part was that after his baptism and for the rest of the day he was the quietest, most content baby I've ever seen. All of the young adults took great delight in cuddling this calm, quiet baby. I don't know whether that was the Holy Spirit working in him or if he was simply exhausted, but it certainly didn't seem to harm him to be completely submerged. However, I did wonder if I would feel the same way about seeing my own grandchildren baptised in this way-time will tell!
Blessings
Michele

Dear Michele,

Could it be that you were at my baptism?

Alex

Thanks Alex.

is it Father Geoffrey Korz that you know ?

Brad

Dear Brad,

Yes - Fr. Korz!

His distant relative was actually glorified a saint among the New Martyrs of Russia in 2000!

Alex

Alex,
Not unless you are currently 6 months old!
Michele

Congratualations Brad!

Her eyes are awesome and she is so precious.

Michelle,

Here is a link to a Baptism at our Church with explanation. http://www.melkite.org/Baptism.html

And yes the babies are very peaceful afterwards, so are the adults we do full emersion for adults also.

Pani Rose

Pani Rose,
Thank you for your comments, altought Ava was baptized some 16 months ago at the age of 8 months.

And yes I must agree, Ava's eyes win my heart everytime she looks at me. I suspect she will use them to her advantage as a she gets older and needs an increase in her allowance

Dear Michele,

Sorry to disappoint, but--babies often do cry at some point during the whole ceremony!

However, many priests have learned to be very gentle handling them, and those babies seem much happier.

Perhaps it also has to do with what age (ie: how many months old) they are baptized?

In Christ,
Alice

yeah, how many months old was the kid? guess he was surprised, after all that time in amniotic fluid in the womb, he was wondering "what? am I back to where I started?" just some vacant thoughts.
Much Love,
Jonn

My priest says if a child is upset, he will immerse them up to their chest or neck and just pour water over their head.

We were all completely immersed, including both my kids.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Congratulations!

May you all have many years of growth in the Lord...

In Christ,
Alice

How delightful! Ava looks like she is really enjoying it...

Thanks so much for posting the picture.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

OK, so baby Joseph was two or three months old and I think he's a very mellow baby. Maybe he was just delighted because everyone loved him so much that day, especially the young adult couples who couldn't stop staring at him adoringly and fighting over whose turn it was to hold him.
Michele