www.byzcath.org
Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 12:39 AM
I found at that the "Monastery Icons" are actually produced by some heretical group. I have received several as gifts. I don't remember if any of them have been blessed. What should I do with them? I have heard that they are evil. They are certainly tacky.

Joe
Posted By: Father Anthony Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 12:46 AM
Dear Joe,

I would strongly suggest first that you have them blessed. Even though they have been produced by a heretical group, the sanctification with Holy Water and the prayers of blessing should exorcise any demonic influences. Now, if you chose to give them to someone else or whatever, at least you will not have to worry about these influences following them. I strongly suggest that no matter what you simply do not throw away any icon, but rather if you inclined to dispose of them, do so in the proper manner with consultation of a priest.

I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 12:49 AM
Father,

It helps very much. God bless you and thank you.

Joe
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 08:57 AM
One thinks that there should be a large banner displayed across every Eastern (Orthodox or Catholic) website - displaying in large letters - "Beware Monastery Icons" - it would save so very much bandwidth biggrin
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 09:02 AM
My advice to those who are in possession, or come into possession, of any of these "icons" is to burn them - they do not follow the canonos of iconography, although one may need a magnifiying glass to discover some of the problems (just for a sample, note carefully what they've done with the traditional Ho On inscription on the head of the Lord Jesus Christ).

Fr. Serge
Posted By: JoeS Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 03:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy:
I found at that the "Monastery Icons" are actually produced by some heretical group. I have received several as gifts. I don't remember if any of them have been blessed. What should I do with them? I have heard that they are evil. They are certainly tacky.

Joe
And they even go so far as to sign the icons. Now thats tacky. Icons are not to be signed at all but written with extreme humility and not notoriety.
Posted By: Ray S. Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 03:43 PM
I wish someone in my little Church would read this thread. :rolleyes:
Posted By: Mary of Egypt Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 08:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy:
I found at that the "Monastery Icons" are actually produced by some heretical group.
Joe
Can I ask, simply out of curiousity, how you know they are produced by a hereticl group?

"note carefully what they've done with the traditional Ho On inscription on the head of the Lord Jesus Christ)."

Fr. Serge,
Can you link a picture of this icon, and explain in more detail?

Thanks.
Posted By: Cathy Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 09:01 PM
Yes, they feature one in their catalogue with God pictured in it....take a look. That's not allowed!!

Monastery Icons [monasteryicons.com]

Aside from the fact that they're heritics, they're not very artistic.
Posted By: Mary of Egypt Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 09:27 PM
Okay, I'm going to openly display my ignorance here, but as the saying goes, there are no stupid questions...

What makes them heritical? The way they write icons? I know just a little bit about icons, mainly how to tell which one's what, some theology of icons, and that they are intentionally left to look unreal.

Maybe I'll be able to learn something here, and so will any lurkers who might be wondering the same thing(s).
Posted By: The young fogey Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 09:48 PM
I'll second what Fr Anthony said. I've been given one and had it blessed. The subject matter is fine and the giver means something to me so I didn't want to destroy it. Though what Fr Serge said is fine.

An Orthodox priest wrote an expos� of Monastery Icons you probably still can find online. They lived near him once so he was well acquainted with them. They are beyond heretical; they're non-Christian, quasi-pseudo-Hindu New Agers. Last I saw on their website they were trying to pass themselves off as Malankara Orthodox from India. They market their images heavily to Roman Catholics (they make lots of images of Roman Catholic saints for example), many of whom don't know iconography and don't know better.
Posted By: Brigid Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 10:20 PM
Fr Anthony Nelson's ctitique of Monastery Icons is online here:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx

The eyes of the Theotokos in the icon illustrating the piece are very disturbing.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/27/06 11:14 PM
To tell if an "icon" is heretical, there are several tests, all of which do require some knowledge of the subject. To learn the subject, try Lossky's Maning of Icons for a starter and other sources published by reputable Orthodox houses.

Compare the "icon" which you are testing with images of the real thing. It takes development of the critical faculties, but eventually you get to the point of being able to recognize even seemingly small departures from what you are supposed to find.

Have a look at other "icons" from the same dubious source. There is a gentleman in the southwest who was trained at Jordanville and who abuses his talent to produce "icons" of highly unlikely subjects.

Get out that magnifiying glass and check all the fine print, so to speak. Some of these peculiar types conceal strange messages in ways which make them hard to find and even harder to read.

Remember: iconography is a language. Unfortunately one can use a language both for honest and for dishonest purposes.

That will do for a starter. There's more, but it's after midnight here.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Orest Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/28/06 02:08 AM
I think you mean:
Ouspensky, Leonid. & Vladimir Lossky. "The Meaning of Icons." Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir�s Seminary Press, 1982.

It is still the best textbook around because it includes pictures, liturgical quotes, biblical quotes and patristic quotes.
Posted By: Benedictine Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/28/06 03:33 AM
Dear All,

I wonder if these products are still being produced by "heretical" religious. Nowhere in the current catalog from Monastery Icons is there mention of the "Gnostic Orthodox" monastics that used to make these icons as a means of support.

Instead the catalog (and this is confirmed on Monastery Icons web site - see: http://www.monasteryicons.com/info/index.hzml ) states that the rights to the images were recently acquired by some group called the Sacred Arts Foundation, which is headquartered in Missouri. Also, the catalog outlet is listed as being in West Chester, OH. Is the "monastic" group that started this now defunct? Does anyone know the story?

Peace

Br. Elias
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/28/06 09:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Benedictine:
I wonder if these products are still being produced by "heretical" religious. Nowhere in the current catalog from Monastery Icons is there mention of the "Gnostic Orthodox" monastics that used to make these icons as a means of support.

Instead the catalog (and this is confirmed on Monastery Icons web site - see: http://www.monasteryicons.com/info/index.hzml ) states that the rights to the images were recently acquired by some group called the Sacred Arts Foundation, which is headquartered in Missouri. Also, the catalog outlet is listed as being in West Chester, OH. Is the "monastic" group that started this now defunct? Does anyone know the story?
Brother Elias,

2005 Annual Report - Sacred Arts Foundation [sos.mo.gov.] State of Missouri - Secretary of State's Office filing shows that the principal place of business is 1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA. The Foundation has only a registered agent in MO, which is a great place to incorporate, as the fees are dirt-cheap.

The officers include William Burke - the former Abbott of the infamous Gnostic Orthodox Monastery.

1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA, btw, is the locale of Atma Jyoti Ashram [atmajyoti.org] , "a spiritual institution devoted to the practice and teaching of Sanatana Dharma, the Eternal Religion, as found in the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali." This is Abbott Burke's latest religious venture.

It would appear that one corporate entity, as it was being phased out, sold its assets to the new corporate venture - essentially mirrors of one another in regard to governance, differing chiefly in ecclesiology.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: ebed melech Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/28/06 09:54 AM
Neil,

Thanks for posting that. It is amazing that you found all that!

I had no idea that they were somehow tied to Hinduism. This should be made known to others somehow. I always thought the fact that they made icons of Western saints was such a positive bridge between East and West. Now I see it as a money making machine to support the worship of all sorts of idols...how ironic and pathetic!

Gordo
Posted By: Benedictine Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/28/06 02:37 PM
Thanks for the info Neil!

Seems like these guys have returned to their roots, so to speak.

Gone the Christian monastic habits, back to the saffron robes...

From their website, I also see they are quite syncretist. Touting such spurious writings as the so-called Gospel of Thomas , et al. :rolleyes:

Their site presents an image a far cry from the catalog, which is throughly mainstream Christian in content - with especially appeal to Catholics. Somewhat deceptive, don't ya think! wink (since our monastery also sells icons, Christian greeting cards, etc. we regularly get the mailings of others in the feild).

PAX

Br. Elias
Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/28/06 03:08 PM
I feel uncomfortable burning them, yet I also don't want to keep them. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to dig a very deep hole in the backyard and bury them there?

Joe
Posted By: Father Anthony Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/29/06 01:48 AM
Dear Joe,

Actually burning them is the canonical and proper way of disposing icons. The ashes are then to scattered in a place that will not be tread upon. Generally, I tell people at the base of a bush or something like that.

Because of the lamination or coating the icon has been given, by burying it will not ensure that it decomposes. I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Grapevine Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/29/06 11:08 PM
They market their images heavily to Roman Catholics (they make lots of images of Roman Catholic saints for example), many of whom don't know iconography and don't know better.

GUILTY! I am an RC who doesn't know any better - please tell my why an icon cannot depict God The Father. Thank you, and please excuse my ignorance; my question is sincere. - Gv eek
Posted By: Cathy Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/29/06 11:14 PM
Quote
please tell my why an icon cannot depict God The Father.
Dear Grapevine....

For the explanation, defer to our Orthodox Brethren at....

Orthodox Photos [orthodoxphotos.com]
Posted By: susiefreckleface Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/30/06 04:13 PM
I wish certain people in my church would read this thread toooooo.
Posted By: The young fogey Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 09/30/06 05:12 PM
Strictly speaking icons can't depict God the Father but in practice they do - lots of Orthodox churches have images of the Trinity with him as an old man with a beard. Haven't heard of any bishops ordering their removal.

It seems that the monastery is a quasi- or pseudo-Hindu ashram now but still making money from the RC market for religious goods through a separate corporation that's really the same people.

One thing the Internet is good for is getting the word out on stories like this so the faithful don't spend their money there, let alone on something heretical or even evil.

And those images are sub-standard as has often been noted.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/09/07 10:05 AM
Just an update, as it has been brought to my attention that the link to the Annual Report of Sacred Arts Foundation at the Missouri Secretary of State's Office is no longer functional.

It appears that the Secretary of State's Office has made some changes to its on-line files. The full set of SAF's filings can now be viewed here [sos.mo.gov]. A quick review of the 2007 filing confirms that the situation is unchanged from what was described earlier,

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/09/07 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Father Anthony
Dear Joe,

I would strongly suggest first that you have them blessed. Even though they have been produced by a heretical group, the sanctification with Holy Water and the prayers of blessing should exorcise any demonic influences. Now, if you chose to give them to someone else or whatever, at least you will not have to worry about these influences following them. I strongly suggest that no matter what you simply do not throw away any icon, but rather if you inclined to dispose of them, do so in the proper manner with consultation of a priest.

I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I refer everyone back to this post and its excellent advice before they panic. Father Anthony speaks as an Orthodox priest and this would be the Church's advice.

Alice, Moderator
Posted By: A Simple Sinner Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/09/07 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Neil,

Thanks for posting that. It is amazing that you found all that!

I had no idea that they were somehow tied to Hinduism. This should be made known to others somehow. I always thought the fact that they made icons of Western saints was such a positive bridge between East and West. Now I see it as a money making machine to support the worship of all sorts of idols...how ironic and pathetic!

Gordo


Gordo they used to have far more Orthodox saints as subjects... And the Orthodox wised up. Nowadays their business mostly fills the vacuum for Catholic subjects, I suspect. Many Catholics, largely unaware of the nature of the group producing these articles (and frequently not totally familiar with the significance of the icons and canons surrounding them) still buy them. It was expedient to produce subject RCs would buy. Saint Pio, Saint Francis, Saint John Vianney, Stations of the Cross, Rosary Mysteries, etc...

As to the image of the Trinity... That one seems to be up in the air slightly, as even ROCOR (certainly not a group of lacadaisacal slouches unbothered by canons by any means!!) has an icon of the Holy Trinity similar to the one linked to at Jordanville. So too several GOA parishes I have been to.

Sad to say my parish still has a few... As we can, we are phasing them out. I am of the opinion that if and when possible, it is always better to have canonical icons that are originals over reproductions... Being able to afford that though it sometimes tricky.

The beauty of Monastery icons was that they had such a complete selection with so many subjects where a parish could have uniform styles & sizes at prices smaller parishes could afford. If an enterprising iconographer were able to produce quality icons of Latin & Eastern subjects in uniform sizes the way MI did, I know many would be interested. Heck, it would be really nice to be able to purchase an icon of Bl. Theodore Romzha for my home.

At this time, I am unaware of any places where I could get an inexpensive reproduction. When I have an extra $250 I may commission one from an iconographer in OH. Convincing the Serbian iconographer in Serbia I have been in contact with (whose prices are very reasonable - �60) to take a commission from a Catholic for an icon of the Theotokos has been difficult enough! I promise you he won't entertain any thoughts about creating an icon of Bl. Theodore!

Time for the Sunday nap.

-Simple
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/09/07 08:45 PM
First of all the Icons in themselves are very tastelss!
If indeed you can taste Icons. smirk
I would suggest that you get rid of them.
Stephanos I
(But then again Im know to be a hardliner)
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/09/07 08:50 PM
I have a beautiful Original Icon of the BVM.
I know it is Russian and I think it is from the 16th or 17th Century. over the Mother of God is a depiction of God the Father.
Need to have someone look at it and tell me where it is from and the name of the icon.
Stephanos I
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/09/07 09:26 PM
GET RID OF THEM! The people who run Monastery Icons are not Christians, nor are the pictures they sell. If you want more information, try Father Gregory Tillet in Sydney, Australia.

Father Serge
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 12:25 AM
The problem is that there are non-iconic pictures in Orthodox churches and also in Eastern EC Churches.

Father Anthony's advice, as Alice said, is the best.

These images, especially as they pertain to Catholic thematics, are very popular in numerous Catholic institutions. As for their Sacred Heart images, they are much better than anything any RC publishing house has put out. They are not Eastern in accordance with canons and the like, but they are images that point to Christian themes. For that alone, they should not be discarded.

And all truth, nomatter who confesses it, comes from the Holy Spirit, or so Aquinas said.

Frankly, they have little to do with Eastern Christians now anyway.

Alex
Posted By: rcguest Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 01:13 AM
Dear Alex,

Here's a link to a Sacred Heart image I think you will like,

http://www.printeryhouse.org/ProdPage.asp?Prod=A06&cat=182

By a Benedictine, no less. wink

Bill
Posted By: Edward Yong Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 09:32 AM
gross. images like that should be forbidden.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 12:03 PM
Iconography is, among other things, comparable to a language. Those who either do not understand that "language" or wilfully choose to ignore it will inevitably commit atrocities. If anyone really wants to see some extreme examples, in the Soviet period there were albums published showing, among other things, "icons" of such people as Lenin - the style is perfect; the subject is not! One can only be grieved by such a horror - and no, I don't have any examples of them in the house.

I don't doubt that the Benedictines, in producing that image, acted with good intentions . .. but we know just which road is paved with good intentions.

For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 05:45 PM
Certainly, one may write akathists to non-sainted individuals, to one's friends, as Taras Shevchenko once did in honour of a living friend who did him many kindnesses. And one can have icons painted in honour of one's parents or to anyone who has witnessed to Christ in their lifetime.

The Sacred Hearts images speak to not only RC's but also EC's - truth be told. Even Bl. Leonid Fyodorov had a devotion to the Sacred Heart, to Eucharistic Benediction. In fact, the rejection of these albeit Latin devotions by EC's is a modern phenomenon - legitimate etc., but still of modern provenance.

Alex
Posted By: Robert K Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 09:28 PM
two questions,

even though it is not part of the Orthodox tradition, why would it be wrong for Roman Catholics to have icons of the Sacred Heart? That is a huge devotion in the West.

#2, where then can a Roman Catholic get good icons of Roman Catholic Saints? (or icons in general for that matter) Especially if you don't particularly appreciate the particular style that St. Isaac of Syria Skete makes.
Posted By: rcguest Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 10:23 PM



"gross. images like that should be forbidden."



Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Iconography is, among other things, comparable to a language. Those who either do not understand that "language" or wilfully choose to ignore it will inevitably commit atrocities. If anyone really wants to see some extreme examples, in the Soviet period there were albums published showing, among other things, "icons" of such people as Lenin - the style is perfect; the subject is not! One can only be grieved by such a horror - and no, I don't have any examples of them in the house.

I don't doubt that the Benedictines, in producing that image, acted with good intentions . .. but we know just which road is paved with good intentions.

For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Fr. Serge

Dear Friends In Christ,

I have a copy of and have read Ouspensky's "The Meaning of Icons". There are Eastern Churches with icons that do not meet and/or follow the canons of Orthodoxy.

My problem is I always speak and live from my heart and not from canons.

An icon of the Sacred Heart an atrocity?
I really had no idea the chasm between east and west is as deep and wide as this.

It actually takes me by surprise, simple as I am, but I have finally come to the realization I have nothing to lend to the discourse on this forum.

The Peace of Christ to All,
Bill

Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 10:48 PM
The Peace of Christ to all indeed! A pseudo-icon is often an atrocity, although the person who painted it or who displays it may not realize the fact. Again, using the model of language can be instructive. One who commits a "linguistic atrocity" does not usually intend to do so - a double negative in English is an example; in many other languages a double negative is a quite normal and grammatically acceptable form. I once heard a Bishop, over the lunch table, say something in English that I would not dare quote - I had to remind myself that he had learned English as an adult; that his English was normally excellent, and that he did not realize the, ah, "colloquial" meaning of what he had said. None of these considerations would justify me in using that particular expression, and defending myself on the grounds that "Bishop So-and-So, who is a kind and holy man, used that expression over the lunch table!"

By the same token, we assume that the good monks of Conception Abbey had no realization that a "Sacred Heart Icon" could give offense. It happens.

Nevertheless, those who wish to be sensitive to our tradition, should learn what is acceptable and what is not, and what may have an iconographic meaning which they do not intend, before starting out full steam ahead.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: rcguest Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:02 PM
Dear Father Serge, bless,

I do not own this icon but I do not find it offensive or inappropriate but then again I am not an eastern Christian. At any rate I will continue to venerate one of my western "shmaltzy" images in my devotions to the Sacred Heart and hope my prayers be heard just the same.

In Christ,
Bill
Posted By: RomanRedneck Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:10 PM
Quote
By the same token, we assume that the good monks of Conception Abbey had no realization that a "Sacred Heart Icon" could give offense. It happens.

Nevertheless, those who wish to be sensitive to our tradition, should learn what is acceptable and what is not, and what may have an iconographic meaning which they do not intend, before starting out full steam ahead.

Father Bless!

Could you please explain what makes this icon offensive? There are those of us who are quite in the dark about this.

Puzzled as rcguest,

Jason
Posted By: harmon3110 Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by rcguest
Dear Alex,

Here's a link to a Sacred Heart image I think you will like,

http://www.printeryhouse.org/ProdPage.asp?Prod=A06&cat=182

By a Benedictine, no less. wink

Bill


Bill,

Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad that this image has been a source of inspiration to you. If Fr. Serge is right about art being akin to language, then this would be a creole -- and not an atrocity. But, to the best of my limited knowledge, neither does it follow the pure tradition of icnography either. In the end, it is an image to aid a soul in prayer and in honoring God by combining traditonal elements of Western and Eastern Christianity. It's a creole.

-- John



Posted By: AdsumJDS Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:43 PM
Re Devotion to the Most Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ: either the Sacred Heart of Jesus appeared or He did not...if He did and asked for a devotion to His Sacred Heart, and I believe that He did, as the Church has approved -- shouldn't this great and wonderful devotion be for the whole Church, not just the West?

If the Western Church said, "This devotion was requested by Our Lord, but it is only for us in the West, and not for the Catholics of Eastern traditions," wouldn't that be offensive?

So, for me, it boils down to: did Our Lord appear, or not? The Church has said, "yes...." so, certainly I want to give the Lord the veneration He has requested, to make the reparation He has requested... Right?!?!
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:55 PM
The Church does not say whether a "private revelation" happened.
I declares that nothing in this is found against the faith and the faithful may either accept it or not.
Stephanos I
Private revelations are just that, private.
Posted By: A Simple Sinner Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:57 PM
AdsumJDS & Stephanos - both fair points.
Posted By: AdsumJDS Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/10/07 11:58 PM
Yes, your are right, of course, Father, but the Church has and continues to foster devotion to Our Lord's Most Sacred Heart... and if "it is not against the Faith," then it cannot be offensive...
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Edward Yong
gross. images like that should be forbidden.

I do not think that this icon is gross. I think that it is a tasteful rendition of the venerations and traditions of both the East and the West.

I think that which we need to contemplate is that the Lord and His holy saints do appear to different peoples differently within the contexts of their different cultures.

That certainly does not make one correct or one incorrect-- though, admittedtly, being a member of a certain cultural sensibility, one might not feel the same comfort level with another's cultural sensibility as one feels with his own.

Tolerance, respect and understanding are keys to bridging the great cultural divide of Christ's church. These virtues of love for our brethren in Christ have nothing to do with assimilation and/or adaptation.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator
Posted By: AdsumJDS Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 12:04 AM
Thank you, Alice, and I always appreciate your kind comments. I thank the Lord for you here!
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 12:20 AM
Dear Friends,

The East does indeed have devotion to the Sacred and Pierced Heart of Christ. There is discussion of it in St Nicholas Cabasilas' work published by St Vladimir's Press! Then there is St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain who contradicts even St Alphonsus Liguori and says the heart is much more than just a symbol of love - it is the seat of love (sic!). And of course there are always my favourite Latinized Orthodox Saints like St Demetrius of Rostov whose writings on the Wounded Heart of Christ drew admiration even from Basilian priests writing in "The Light!"

The particular devotion to the exposed Heart of Christ is something that does exist in EC Churches and was most popular among our New Martyrs - a fact, nothing to make up there.

And, frankly, I prefer an Easternized image of the Sacred Heart rather than one of the "saccharine" Italianate types.

Alice is more than correct.

And St Nicodemus is of the same national origin as she!

Alex
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 12:23 AM
Would it have been possible to write an icon of the Sacred Heart of Jesus?

(I am personally uncomfortable with the flames, but I am illiterate with icons except for a few which were explained to me.)

Terry
Posted By: AdsumJDS Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 12:24 AM
Thank you, Alex. I am going to copy this, if you don't mind, and save it for the future, so I can research the saints you mention. The Sacred Heart is the Seat of Love... How beautiful and wonderful!!!
Posted By: Betty Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 01:32 AM
I think attempts to blend some East & West traditions can ultimately confuse both. The Sacred Heart of Jesus may be transforming to Catholics & other Western believers; however, in the East, the nous, the soul & heart are one. Depict that in an icon!

Betty
A confused Eastern Catholic
Posted By: harmon3110 Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by Alice
[ . . .]I think that which we need to contemplate is that the Lord and His holy saints do appear to different peoples differently within the contexts of their different cultures.

That certainly does not make one correct or one incorrect-- though, admittedly, being a member of a certain cultural sensibility, one might not feel the same comfort level with another's cultural sensibility as one feels with his own.

Tolerance, respect and understanding are keys to bridging the great cultural divide of Christ's church. These virtues of love for our brethren in Christ have nothing to do with assimilation and/or adaptation.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator


:::applause::: Well said, Alice !

-- John

Posted By: harmon3110 Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by Betty
I think attempts to blend some East & West traditions can ultimately confuse both. The Sacred Heart of Jesus may be transforming to Catholics & other Western believers; however, in the East, the nous, the soul & heart are one. Depict that in an icon!

Betty
A confused Eastern Catholic


I think there is room in Christ's Church for a spectrum of artistic expressions. There can be traditional Western religious art, and there can be traditional Eastern religious art, and there can also be blends.

I have no doubt that traditionalists (in both the West and the East) will endeavor to keep their respective artistic traditions unconfused.

I also have no doubt that some artists will attempt to blend the two.

It reminds me of Scotch. There are some very good single malts, and there are some very good blends too, and each kind of Scotch has its plusses and minuses.

My two cents.

-- John

Posted By: harmon3110 Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Father Anthony
Dear Joe,

I would strongly suggest first that you have them blessed. Even though they have been produced by a heretical group, the sanctification with Holy Water and the prayers of blessing should exorcise any demonic influences. Now, if you chose to give them to someone else or whatever, at least you will not have to worry about these influences following them. I strongly suggest that no matter what you simply do not throw away any icon, but rather if you inclined to dispose of them, do so in the proper manner with consultation of a priest.

I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I refer everyone back to this post and its excellent advice before they panic. Father Anthony speaks as an Orthodox priest and this would be the Church's advice.

Alice, Moderator


Amen.

I'm sorry I overlooked this thread till now. My parish has some of their icons along the top of our iconostasis. Our bishop said they were icons, after long liturgical presence and use.

And, the ones we have aren't that bad artistically. They're not great, but they're not that bad either. The one of Theophany is actually rather good.

-- John



Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 03:13 PM
With apologies to Alice, I continue to disagree (and I really would not advise Alice to attempt to donate a large Sacred Heart image to her parish church).

The point already made that private revelations are not binding on anyone is quite correct.

I am aware of Saint Nicholas Cabasilas's one reference to the "Sacred Heart". It is interesting precisely because it is unique.

It is possible to find people of spiritual importance who display this, that, or another aberration - that does not prove that we should follow them in the aberration.

Me, I remain much more impressed by Archbishop Joseph (Raya)'s comment on the "Sacred Heart". Anyone who knew him will know exactly what I am referring to, although I don't propose to quote it here, lest someone claim to be personally offended.

The heart is the Seat of Love? Well, one can find justification in the Scripture for the affirmation that the bowels are the seat of wisdom. Shall we have another pseudo-icon?

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 04:21 PM
Dear Father Serge,

No apologies to me are necessary. Charitable disagreement is healthy...and we are all entitled to our passionate opinions! smile

Oh, and don't worry, I would never think of donating an icon of the Sacred Heart to my parish! wink

Respectfully,
Alice
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 04:29 PM
I guess I personally was reacting to these private revelations from the viewpoint of having all these groups in our city.
They rival one another with this revelation and that revelation and treat a person who does not share their zeal as someone who is outside the will of God and some even question if they are Catholics or not.
Personally I have a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, but like Alice I do not share their same artistic taste.
The one version of the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary that I do like, is the one by Chambers.
Stephanos I
Now to find a nice hand written Icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help.
Posted By: rcguest Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 10:59 PM
To All,

May I say in posting the link to the icon of the Sacred Heart, which Alex referenced in the post above mine, I was simply pointing out an image done by a Catholic Christian, rather than the one done by "Monastery Icons". Canonical or not, I prefer such an image to many of the western style images that drip with sentimentality. I was not suggesting placing such an image in an Eastern church nor fostering a Latin devotion among Eastern Christians.

I hold in great esteem our +Holy Father John Paul II who exhorted us as Catholics to "breathe with both lungs". I may still be a rookie but I'm trying. Sadly I seem to sense both camps, east and west, are withdrawing from each other rather than moving closer.

In Christ,
Bill
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 11:02 PM
Dear Bill,

Don't worry, all is not as bleak as our good posters sometimes inadvertently make it seem. wink

In Christ,
Alice smile
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/11/07 11:21 PM
Dear Alice,

The Blessing of the Lord!

No worries - I know full well that you would do no such thing! Should you want any real icons, I can recommend some good iconographers.

with every blessing, fraternally in Christ,

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 02:23 PM
Bless, Reverend Father!

Well, unique or not, it certainly occasioned quite a large section of commentary in the Forward to the St Vladimir's Seminary Press publication of his work!

The Wounded Side of Christ, mentioned many times in the Octoechos services, is another matter, of course.

As I related to you when you were still here, I found the Sacred Heart image to be a great help in praying the Jesus Prayer/prayer of the heart. At that time, you suggested to me that I write that experience up and that perhaps the devotion could be "reconstructed."

I still hold fast to your suggestion!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 02:27 PM
Dear rcguest,

Yes indeed. and, once again, it must be reiterated that the devotion to the Sacred Hearts is really RAMPANT in the EC Churches, especially the UGCC and was certainly most popular among the New Martyrs, including Bl. Paul Gojdich OSBM.

In entire areas in Ukraine and elsewhere, not to have an image of the Sacred Heart in the parish is unthinkable. To want to remove such would be considered: a) anti-Catholic; and/or b) part of an Easternization campaign akin to Russification.

A delicate matter all around. But we EC's should not act as if we don't have a strong history and contemporary experience of devotion to the Sacred Heart of Christ!

That would simply be silly and a denial of reality.

Alex
Posted By: Byzantine TX Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 03:29 PM
Bl. Paul Godjich certainly lived in a time of widespread Latinization.

A denial of historical reality, but one that we should not consider insurmountable. As a personal belief, I think we can provide people with authentically Eastern expressions of His love for us. Also a personal belief, I believe we really should do our best to make that happen.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 04:03 PM
I'm not sure just who is supposed to be denying what historical reality. But never mind, it's easy to think of historical realities which one would not deny but which one also would not wish to replicate - the morals of Henry VIII are an obvious case in point.

Greek-Catholic parishes without the presence of images of the "sacred heart" are not so scarce as Alex seems to think - in Toronto one can find several, without going to much trouble. Likewise in Rome. Likewise elsewhere. In fact, the list would soon grow so long as to be a bit much for the forum. Nor does it seems utterly likely that anyone is about to request a guide-book to sacred-heart-free churches. If it's any consolation, I can't honestly remember the last time I saw a sacred heart image in one of our churches; it has been awhile. On the other hand, I certainly don't go in search of them.

Devotions and prayers to stress God's love for us? We are not in the least lacking on this count; check our service-books and you'll find plenty.

Yes, John Paul II urged us to use both lungs. But I don't remember him - or anyone else - promoting some sort of image of the Lord Jesus Christ showing His "sacred lungs"!

One could engage in reductio ad absurdum on this point to a very considerable extent. I restrain myself, with some difficulty.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 04:05 PM
Agreed!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 04:14 PM
Bless, Father Archimandrite,

First of all, your comparison of the Sacred Heart devotion with King Henry VIII is surprisingly out of place and somewhat irreverent, whether or not one practices that devotion. Sorry if I'm out of place for pointing that out.

I never even once suggested that UGCC churches without images of the Sacred Heart are scarce - that is a bit of a tendentious reading into my post, don't you think? I'm not trying to promote this devotion, just simply indicating what the current realities in the wider UGCC really are. I find that "Orthodox in communion with Rome" have a tendency to believe that the entire UGCC is as they are. Frankly, I wish that it were so. But unless one has blinders on, that is not the case. And we can't rewrite history to show that our New Martyrs, including Pat. Joseph Slipyj, by the way, did not promote devotion to the Sacred Hearts (see his prayerbook published at Rome for instance).

And I've said that our liturgy has veneration for the Wounded Side and Love of Christ etc. No problem on my part and please calm down. I just hate it when people get emotional on this forum! wink

It is just that I'm a cradle UGCCer and that church is "my church" in a way that it never really will be for non-cradles. I know it very well and it is the love of my life.

Alex
Posted By: Byzantine TX Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
It is just that I'm a cradle UGCCer and that church is "my church" in a way that it never really will be for non-cradles. I know it very well and it is the love of my life.

Alex

I will try and not get emotional about this statement then and say that this mentality can be taken to an unhealthy place (I am in no way saying you have, are, or ever will do so). I have seen it in some Ruthenian parishes that on the one hand maintain a lot of their heritage and on the other hand treat newcomers so poorly as to slowly dwindle for lack of conversion.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 05:39 PM
Dear Byzantine TX,

While it is understandable that my words can be interpreted as you say, that was not my intention at all.

Fr. Archimandrite suggested, at least to me, that I don't know my church.

I simply said that I do and I do as someone who has always been within it, know the amazing devotional varieties of parishes in North America and E. Europe, and simply say that that is how things are. I agree that is not how they should be. But that is how things are. We may not like it, but we should not pretend otherwise.

I apologise for anything further that could be suggested by my words. Enough out of me for one day.

Alex
Posted By: podkarpatski Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/12/07 06:18 PM
I have a small icon of St. John the Evangelist. I can't imagine there being anything demonic associated with the image of a saint. Has anyone found any "secret messages" in the Monastery Icon of Saint John?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/13/07 03:49 PM
Dear podkarpatski,

None thus far . . . wink

Have it blessed, just as one should have all icons blessed.

I sometimes fear that the icons from Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline may make me even more stridently pro-Eastern . . . smile

Alex
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/13/07 05:34 PM
Dear Alex,

Please read my posts with some care before taking offense - I did not compare Henry VIII to the sacred heart devotion. Nor have I sent you any PM on the sacred heart devotion; what I have written I have written for anyone to read.

Glad to know you had a devout childhood - or at least an interesting one. I don't think I've ever known anyone to bring a cradle to Church.

I also can't remember when I happened to encounter anyone actual perform the "devotion to the sacred heart" - but I think it was in 1972, and in Hungarian. Hogy vogy? I've not gone out of my way to avoid it; just haven't run into it for the past 35 years or so. Since I do get around, that service is probably not as rampant as all that. Though I don't doubt that if you look hard enough you can find it somewhere.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/13/07 06:16 PM
Bless, Father,

I never said you sent me a PM on the Sacred Heart devotion (?) I only said that this is what you told me over the phone when you were still in Toronto. If you don't remember, I do!

I will leave it to God to decide how devout my childhood, or the rest of my life was and will be. I thank God for all the interesting excitement of it all.

My parents were the ones who brought me, as a Cradle UGCCer, to Church for baptism. I've been in that Church, sans cradle, all my life and have never jumped ship or switched jurisdictions. My focus was solely on the UGCC, with all its interesting parishes, devotions, and practices that defy pigeon-holing by anyone.

I love my UGCC as it is, warts and all. I am thankful that it holds me in the cradle of its saving embrace still.

Alex

Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/13/07 11:25 PM
Rock-a-bye . . .

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 02:58 AM
Bless, Father,

The memory of your beautiful, flowing beard still relaxes me to the point of restful, carefree slumber . . .

Z-z-z-z-

Your servant,

Alex
Posted By: rcguest Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 05:26 AM
Dear Father Serge,

Skimming back through the book "The Meaning of Icons", (hardly a book one can simply skim through), from the eastern standpoint and tradition I better understand your objections to the "Sacred Heart" being depicted in an icon.

However, I'm still puzzled over this and am trying to sort it out. I'm only left with questions.

The Roman calendar dates June 15th as the "Solemnity of the Sacred Heart". As a Catholic, if this is an approved feast in the Latin church, is it really wrong to have the traditional image done as an icon? You've pretty much already answered this so the better question is "Why is it wrong?".

Are icons of post-schism Latin saints permitted?

Can Latin Catholics even truly be iconographers or should the Roman Church simply leave iconography to the Eastern Churches?

I'm honestly trying to understand better and will not debate your answers, mainly because I could not :), and I really don't want to, and won't, make another post on this thread.

In Christ,
Bill






Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 06:04 AM
Bill,

Why even go toward creating an icon of it? Why not be satisfied with the Sacred Heart in statue form, as well as in two-dimensional pictured form? If these enhance your prayer life, that should be good enough for devotion, shouldn't it?
Posted By: Miller Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 06:21 AM
Well according to my wife�s grandfather who studied theology in Volyna, Ukraine, the main Orthodox argument against veneration of the Catholic Sacred Heart centres around the idea that the Sacred Heart is influenced by cyprto-nestorianism, that is it overemphasizes the humanity of Christ.

It is believed that the 5th Ecumenical Council admonishes Orthodox Christians to direct their veneration and worship of Christ to Christ as a whole and not to separate parts of His being. It is believed that there is something unnatural in separating the heart from the general bodily nature of Christ.

There is also this well known quote (at least in Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox circles) about the late Metr. Antoni Kraphovitsky in a discussion with the late Metr. A. Sheptytsky.

�Several times at the outset of his activity in the See of Volyn�, Vladika Anthony exchanged correspondence with the �Metropolitam of Lvov (sic), Count Andrei Sheptytsky. In one of his letters, the �metropolitan wrote that he was then occupied with the introduction of veneration to the �Sacred Heart of Jesus� among the Galicians�When Vladika took exception to this Catholic devotion, the �metropolitan asked: �Really, how can one possibly object to the veneration of the Sacred Heart, when our Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us with His heart , and when His heart suffered most of all, throbbing with pain?� To this Vladika replied that during Christ�s sufferings, as is well know, He experienced much pain, not only in his heart, but in other internal organs of His body, as for example, the liver, the kidneys, etc. It would then follow that one could venerate these other internal organs as well �To this remark there was no response.�
p. 26, Orthodox Life, No. 4, 1979
Posted By: A Simple Sinner Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 07:40 AM
Should a devotion to the sacred kidney arise, sign me up. I would kiss the footprints.

Some things can be reasonably accepted as "local variation" can't they?
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 11:05 AM
Just to return for a moment to the original topic of this thread (a novel thought, I know), someone recently quoted elsewhere an e-mail posted to the phatmass site. In it, someone at Sacred Arts Foundation disavowed any connection between Monastery Arts of old and its present incarnation, pointing to the "purchase" by SAF of all interests in MI. The individual who brought this to my attention also reiterated the point, brought up previously (here, I think) that SAF/MI uses an OH address. So, I went back to research further.

OH is the location of their PO Box - effectively an order fulfillment site. As I mentioned previously, businesses are not uncommonly incorporated in states other than the one in which they principally do business. (As an example, thousands of businesses are incorporated in tiny Delaware solely because that state has statutes which are particularly favorable to corporations them. The vast majority of those firms do not have a physical presence in Delaware nor are they required to do so, provided that they have a registered agent there - an individual who agrees to accept legal service on their behalf.) In this instance, corporation fees in Missouri are dirt cheap, making it a good place in which to incorporate.

As I already pointed out, the named directors of the SAF in the Missouri corporate filings are the same persons affiliated with the former MI and the address in CA for SAF in those filings is identical to that for George Burke's temple, ashram, whatever. It's unrealistic to think that, if a business called SAF bought MI, that MI's former owners would then incorporate a business that they would name SAF. And, if they did, and you were SAF, would you not immediately drag them to court for some type of trademark infringement?

But, on to new info - a search of the records of the Ohio Secretary of State's Office for documentation as to "foreign corporations" - those doing business in the state, but incorporated elsewhere. That search produces Sacred Arts Foundation [www2.sos.state.oh.us], a Missouri corporation, with the California address reported previously (showing Monastery Icons as its California name), and a registered agent in OH for purposes of its business functions there.

The records of the California Secretary of State's Office also confirm that a Missouri corporation known as Sacred Arts Foundation does business in CA, from the same address. The search results url will not return from a link - but you can replicate my search by going to California Business Search [kepler.ss.ca.gov] - entering Sacred Arts Foundation in the search box and clicking the resulting link for Sacred Arts Foundation (the one showing John Weber as its registered agent for process).

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: RomanRedneck Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 01:19 PM
I can understand the reluctance, even the abhorrence, to the cult of the body parts of Jesus. I've always thought it strange and unsettling that people make prayers "through the wounds of your left foot" or some such thing. Devotion to a body part? EGADS!

However, I have always taken the devotion to the Sacred Heart as an exception for the reason that the heart, in spiritual/biblical language refers primarily to the center of ones being, not to his physical heart, which is only a symbol of it. Furthermore, the fact that the sacred Heart images are stylized hearts and not anatomically correct drawings reinforces this position, imo.

I would have as much trouble as anyone having a special devotion to an "icon" of an anatomically correct heart, complete with valves, arteries and the like. What I mean is, I think it's gross.

However...and I want to be tactful here so please know that I am trying not to upset anyone...Since we believe that we are nourished by the literal physical body and blood of the Savior through manducation, why is it a theological problem to have devotion to the body of the Lord? Seriously, think about it. We have no problem talking about putting the actual flesh and blood of Jesus in our mouths but we rage when someone draws a picture of his heart?

Crypto-nestorianism? I don't think so. The only way one can "over-emphasize" the humanity of Christ is by denying his full divinity. To me this simply sounds like an eastern suspicion of anything western and an attempt to give credence to that suspicion by labeling it with a theological name.

Jason

Posted By: JonnNightwatcher Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by RomanRedneck
I can understand the reluctance, even the abhorrence, to the cult of the body parts of Jesus. I've always thought it strange and unsettling that people make prayers "through the wounds of your left foot" or some such thing. Devotion to a body part? EGADS!



Jason




WHAT??????????????????????????

Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: Edward Yong Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 02:21 PM
he's entirely serious. i have seen, in the Pieta prayerbook, a prayer to the left shoulder wound of Christ.
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 02:38 PM
The prayer of the Church venerates and honors the Heart of Jesus just as it invokes his most holy name. It adores the incarnate Word and his Heart which, out of love for men, he allowed to be pierced by our sins. Christian prayer loves to follow the way of the cross in the Savior's steps.-- From the Catechism. P: 2669

With this, I will also link a beautiful Latin icon, which is not offensive at all.

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/heart/sh_novena.htm

People can like or not like a particular icon, but they have no right to speak uncharitably about our Lord, and devotions to him!

I would also like to remind all that Saint Padre Pio recited the Novena to the Sacred Heart every day for all those who requested his prayers.

Therefore, I would like everyone to stop ALL *inappropriate* and *offensive* remarks about this devotion of our Latin brethren to our LORD Jesus Christ!

IF this topic continues with even one more post on the Sacred Heart of Jesus, it will be closed. Some of our Latin brethren here have been deeply offended and wounded by this thread. The devotion to and the title of the 'Sacred Heart' is very common in the Roman Catholic Church, with many having attended churches and schools named for it..(including my daughter, and I knew that she was in good hands because of it)!

So-- consider this a warning for keeping the thread open!

May our Lord's sacred and holy heart of love and compassion have mercy on us all!

Alice, Moderator
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 02:51 PM
Dear Alice,

You are a truly remarkable person and you really do MAKE this forum the wonderful place it is! smile

Alex
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 03:31 PM
I do not object to the veneration of the Sacred Heart, nor should anyone else, in my opinion, since all of us venerate the bodies of the holy saints - whether whole or in part!

The Apostolic Father of my Church, St. Thomas, is located in three places - I am sure that he is not whole in any of the three. wink

What I object to is the iconographic representation of the Sacred Heart, as iconography follows certain rules - of course the rules vary depending on the type - Copts, Byzantines, Syriacs, Ethiopians, even Latins etc. have different styles and patterns. If the Latin Church were to have the Sacred Heart represented in painted form or statuary I'd say 'great'!
It should be noted that within homes of Indian Christians, both Orthodox and Catholic, the image of Christ and His Mother with their hearts depicted is very common and highly honoured.



Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 03:42 PM
Dear Michael,

Well, point taken.

However, in the Benedictine biritual monastery at Chevetogne, the Latin Church there is simply covered with . . . icons.

Western icons and no "pictures" in accordance with the Latin tradition of the first millennium - quite beautiful.

The problem with contemporary RC art is that it can be really, well, overly saccharine and "cloyingly sweet."

There is no question that the "icon" we are discussing is really not an icon, but a stylized picture.

It is much better as a representation of you-know-what (you see, unlike others, I obey Alice when she sets down a rule! wink ) and I can see many RC's preferring that kind of depiction to others (in fact, it is very popular among my Latin friends - none of whom actually understand Latin, mind you . . .)

In the Greek tradition, the heart is the seat of the mind, as I understand. Our Lord Himself once told us that He was meek and gentle of heart etc.

And it was from His pierced Heart, from which flowed Blood and Water, that His Church was born.

The East DOES in fact make use of the heart symbol in its iconography.

At St Nicholas' UGCC Church in Toronto where I attend, the great icon of Christ the Pantocrator there is surrounded in a circle composed of . . . hearts.

And the Orthodox icon of Christ the Lover of Mankind often places little hearts on the Gospel Book our Lord is depicted holding in his left hand (I have just such an icon from Greece).

And our Eastern tradition is to always kiss the edge of the Chalice after Holy Commmunion in veneration of the Wounded Side of Christ at which we are truly nourished in that most Sacred Mystery of His Body and Blood.

If there are those who prefer a depiction of our Lord's Heart (as did, without question, the EC New Martyrs of the communist yoke), then who is anyone to accuse them of bad theology?

Alex
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I do not object to the veneration of the Sacred Heart, nor should anyone else, in my opinion, since all of us venerate the bodies of the holy saints - whether whole or in part!

The Apostolic Father of my Church, St. Thomas, is located in three places - I am sure that he is not whole in any of the three. wink

What I object to is the iconographic representation of the Sacred Heart, as iconography follows certain rules - of course the rules vary depending on the type - Copts, Byzantines, Syriacs, Ethiopians, even Latins etc. have different styles and patterns. If the Latin Church were to have the Sacred Heart represented in painted form or statuary I'd say 'great'!
It should be noted that within homes of Indian Christians, both Orthodox and Catholic, the image of Christ and His Mother with their hearts depicted is very common and highly honoured.

This discussion should stop now. It is becoming redundant.

Alice, Moderator
Posted By: Alice Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 12/14/07 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Alice,

You are a truly remarkable person and you really do MAKE this forum the wonderful place it is! smile

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words. I hope that you are feeling better and that all is well with your health.

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 01/18/08 07:31 AM
Once again, I feel the need to return to this thread's original topic and update the Monastery Icons/Sacred Arts Foundation saga.

I received a message from a poster at another site who had read my last prior update at that forum on the subject - essentially the same info as in my last post to this thread on the matter. He was in the process of seeking to convince some persons of his acquaintance from using MI/SAF as a vendor.

However, in doing some research of his own, he discovered that that there were some discrepancies:

  • the ashram website (http://www.atmajyoti.org/contact1.asp) now claims that it is based in New Mexico
  • there is no current evidence online linking the 1482 Rango Way California street address to the ashram
  • the Missouri corporate registration refers to "William Burke", rather than "George Burke", as we know the former Abbott to be named.

So, to re-establish ... once again ... the linkage, I went searching and found ...
  • a search for "1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA" produces this - The Christ of India [atmajyoti.org] - on the ashram site and scrolling further down the page will display the article's copyright, using the Borrego Springs (CA) address
  • Visiting the Ashram's site [atmajyoti.org], and scrolling, there is reference to the ashram being presently located in Cedar Crest, NM
  • Clicking the Q&A link on the ashram site leads to questions addressed to and answered [atmajyoti.org] Swami Nirmalananda, abbot of Atma Jyoti Ashram. Many will recognize the jovial features of "Abbott George" in the top right photo at Q&A. And, I'm sure some recollect that this is the name he adopted after departing Orthodoxy
  • Corporate records of the NM Public Regulation Commission, an agency of the Secretary of State's Office, reveals that, as of Sept 2007, amomg the "foreign corporation" (those doing business in, but incorporated outside the state) is a Missouri corporation named Sacred Arts Foundation [nmprc.state.nm.us] and its mailing address is P.O. Box 1370, Cedar Crest , NM 87008
  • A return visit to the ashram's website, specifically its Contact Info page [atmajyoti.org] reveals that its mailing address is "Atma Jyoti Ashram, P. O. Box 1370, Cedar Crest, New Mexico 87008"

I neither know nor care what the relationship is between George and William Burke. Suffice it to say, where goes the ashram, there goes Sacred Arts - they continue to be one and the same entity, despite the legalism of separate incorporation.

To replicate my search of the NM records - since the link above resulted from a search function and such links aren't always stable:

go to NM Secretary of State - Corporations [sos.state.nm.us],

click on the link provided http://www.nmprc.state.nm.us/,

click on the "Corporations Information" button,

enter Sacred Arts Foundation in the Corporation Information Inquiry box and press "Find" - it will be the first entry provided in an alphabetical listing.

It could all just be a coincidence - believe that and I'll offer you a chance to get in on the ground floor of a mining operation situated on the outer rings of Saturn - great view crazy

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Recluse Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 01/18/08 05:14 PM
I was given an "icon" from "Monastery Icons" years ago as gift from a Roman Catholic priest. They were distributed throughout the diocese by the Bishop! I burned it two weeks ago.

Furthermore, I know of an Orthodox Church which has one on their tetrapod (namesake of the Church). When I brought it to the priest's attention he told me that it is okay because it was blessed and any demonic influences or disturbances are exorcised.
However, it hurts to look at this tacky excuse for an "icon".

I wish that the word could be spread far and wide about these charlatans!!! mad
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 01/18/08 05:43 PM
Well - I have to say that I certainly do my best to pass the information on .

I'm in total agreement that the more people who know about this group the better.

To me the problem is that they seem to keep moving about - and this can , and does, casue problems of indentification. Their new name [ well it's been going for a while now ] does lull so many folk into a sense of false security and they are convinced that an outfilt with such a name has to be exactly what it says - and as we know - thanks to Neil digging everywhere and following the paper trail - they most certainly are not
Posted By: Wolfgang Re: Monastery icons what to do? - 01/20/08 06:46 PM
I send the catalogs they send me to a prison in Ohio, near where I grew up. Maybe the prisoners can learn something about Christianity by looking at the pictures. I bet 99% of the prisoners do not know about icons, or the many feasts of the Christian East.
I do enjoy the traditional Russian icons that are sold by Monastery Icons.
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