A thought occured to me today...

I wonder if the scourge of Islam on our world and the growing threat of dhimmitude is a curse or a punishment from God to Europe and the States, much in the same way that it was within the Empire of Byzantium?

It appears the growing Muslim majority in Europe coincides with an increase in secularism, atheism, contraception, abortion and euthanasia. Christians who are not fruitful and do not multiply as commanded by God in Genesis are now or will soon be outnumbered in the next 20 years or so as Europe becomes Eurabia.

The US will certainly suffer the loss of key allies in the war on terror at that point, and, God forbid, will more than likely suffer an attack of some sort (the odds are in favor of such an event).

Is this not a punishment from God for our indifference and adoption of a secularist worldview, not to mention our export and promulgation internally of a culture of death? We know that wherever Muslims have become the majority, the dhimmi (Christains, Jews and all non-Muslims) have suffered tremendously.

I fear for my children and grandchildren's future unless we somehow turn the tide. So I pray, hope and trust in God to "save (His) people and bless (His) inheritance"!

Any thoughts on this? Of course, not every Muslim is a terrorist, but Islam itself as a religion carries within it the seed of a reign of terror through jihad and sharia.

If Islam is one of the toxins developed in reaction to our rampant functional atheism, what is the cure?

Yes, I've believed that for the last several years.

The cure is Theosis and Evangelization. Follow what we know to be true and give it away to others.

CDL

Dear Ebed,

It's strange how in the last century there was athiestic communism with it's belief in a one world government and it's opposing system: Fascism; with it's extreme nationalist fervor. :rolleyes:

Today we have athiestic secularism, and opposing it is Islam with it's medieval 'sharia' law. It's funny how evil always comes in two's...and hopefully this time it won't end up destroying the world the way it did the last century.

Zenovia

Ebed,

I don't think God literally "punishes" or "curses" us... however, you're certainly right that we have brought Islam down onto ourselves through our "rampant functional atheism." I love that phrase, btw, it's perfect!

This might sound like a Fundamentalist Protestant thing to say, but I personally don't think Jesus' return is too far off.

God bless,

Karen

Karen,

I agree with you and that was the perspective I was coming from. To say that "God punishes us" has to be seen from the perspective of Biblical revelation. To be sure, God is generous in His blessings, but we often choose the path of the "curse". His punishments are Fatherly, and not random or cruel as in the tales of various mythologies. He wounds, but He binds always with a view to our salvation and theosis.

The history of Israel is replete with examples of the ancestors of the many Muslims attacking her when she was weak or became idolatrous in faith. History moves forward, but always, it seems in an eliptical pattern.

Islam arose within the milieu of East and its many divisions at the time. (Soloviev points this out, I believe...). Where we are divided as a house, our enemies multiply. Perhaps Islam may prove to be an added incentive (not to sole incentive, mind you) to Christian unity?

As to Jesus's return, your hope is the same as that of the earliest Christians and Christians of every generation. This past century saw some of the greatest evils in the history of mankind on a scale that has never existed before. There appears to be a movement towards an "ingathering" of all the Children of Israel. Anything is possible...not Hal Lindsey "Late Great Planet Earth" possible or Tim LaHaye "My Left Behind" possible, but possible nonetheless!

Maranatha! Lord Jesus come quickly!

Gordo

I do not believe that a different belief system or people who follow it are a punishment from God. We all choose to do good or evil because God gave us free will.

Many Americans are far too self-deprecating. Fortunately, part of that comes because we are introspective sorts who are free to debate policy and law and government and whether we have made the right choices or not as a nation. That is a gift many in the world will never know and sadly, will never miss.

The law - whether it permits abortion or men to marry men or whatever it does that we do not believe in and believe to be wrong - does not drive our moral lives. It just tells us what we can and cannot do without being punished by a civil authority and thrown into jail or otherwise suffer some penalty. It has always been the role of faith and the church to tell us what we can and cannot do to avoid sin and to avoid being punished by a higher and more awesome authority.

If certain immoral behaviors persist in our society, then I believe it is because we as individual Christians have failed to get our moral message across to others to help inform their choices.

Sorry for repeating this, but I am always reminded that my baba took in an unwed mother-to-be whose parents wanted her to get an abortion. Baba, an old lady who was widowed early and who had raised so many children and grandchildren before, said she knew the parents would know their grandchild was a blessing and all would be well again. These were wealthy parents who would have taken the girl elsewhere. The girl didn't want to go, she wanted the baby. The parents relented a bit if the girl left their home, so the girl lived with baba and baba was with her at the hospital for the birth. Then, the parents started to come around. Then, they forgave the girl. Then, they were tearfully sorry and very happy to have the baby and their daughter come home. We were skeptical that it would work out okay like baba said. Baba was right.

I became convinced: The Lord works through babas with simple, honest faith. The people who act like the story of the widow's mite. They give and give and they don't worry about their own needs.

The rest of us can debate the number of angels who dance on the head of a pin or global politics or what sin the guy next door has engaged in, but if we haven't acted on a very personal level to reach out with love and help another human being in imitation of Christ, then what have we done as Christians?

Except when that belief system specifically calls for either your belief system's/people's total submission or destruction. Islam is predicated upon a "replacement" theology, which differs greatly from Christianity's "fulfillment" or "ingrafting" approach to Israel. Those who do not submit to the yoke of Islam must pay penalties and be treated as second-class citizens/human beings within Muslim societies.

Read any of Bat Ye'or's incredible studies of this phenomenon, especially The Dhimmi: Jews and christians Under Islam, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude , and Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis.

As to whether a people or a religion can be used by God as a means to "punishment" or "paternal correction", such a position in the affirmative is very Scriptural. The Philistines and Babylonians are examples of such phenomenon as recounted in the sacred text. In fact, that is how the Fathers, particularly Eusebius of Caesarea, interpreted the role of the Romans in the destruction of the Jerusalem and the Temple (as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Christ). The pagan Romans were the (unwitting) instrument to destroy definitively the Mosaic ceremonial system which had been fulfilled in Christ through His reestablishment/elevation of the superior Patriarchal religion (of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and the priesthood of Melchizedek. (The Mosaic system was a parental accomodation/punishment for Israel's worship of the Golden Calf - this is how St. Paul and the whole Patristic corpus interprets this.)

The scourge of abortion - mass murder on a global scale that supercedes anything seen before just in terms of sheer numbers - everything from the use of abortafacient contraceptives such as the "Pill" and the IUD to the clinics that perscribe and perform - cries out to God like innocent Abels blood. The muder of the innocent, whether codified in law, or I should say especially BECAUSE it is codified in law, invites punishment from God unless there is a fundamental "turning" or conversion on teh part of the people. This is not a form of fundamentalism, rather it is a fact of history. God's mercy stays His hand, but only for a time. Eventually, His justice will come, as has been seen throughout history. Why is it not possible that the yoke of Islam - which forbids abortion, BTW - should not be permitted by God to take over what was once Christian Europe just as it took over what was once Byzantium and the predominantly Christian Middle East?

As to the babas, I am convinced that they are the source of salvation for the whole church. Just as the Ukrainians of the Greek-Catholic underground.

Gordo

Gordo,
I agree.

I also dont think that God does this sort of thing. We all have out own cross to bear in life to but to clump people together and label them a punishment from God is overdoing it and distorts how our God wishes to by seen and understood by all humanity.

I'm in the Pavel camp. I also think at heart the form of radical Islam we are facing now is really a political and not a religious movement. Islamism has filled the void of all the other "isms" of the 20th century that have failed.

There is also no age to me that is inherently more sinful than another. We are on a continuum of sin going back to the Fall.

Andrew

Fair enough. I would only clarify that my own position is that Islam (not every Muslim) is a punishment from God...in the very least in its radical forms, I think that this can be asserted as true.

I would say that Protestantism is also a "punishment" from God for the sinfulness of the Catholic Church at that time. God certainly is not the author of Protestantism, but He certainly permitted (and permits) its creation and propagation throughout Europe and beyond. Does that mean every Protestant is a punishment from God? No - not at all!!! But is the movement itself? I think it is arguably true.

Just my two cents...

Gordo

Have to agree ebed, both Protestantism and Islam are our modern-day plagues. They wreak division (Protestantism) and death (Islam).

My grandparents despise Muslims, and only because they lived for two years in Saudi Arabia, where they did not find one decent Muslim human being there. Not even one. Call Islam a religion of peace if you will, but it's not. I also know several people who lived in Serbia and other Eastern European countries that have warred with Islam for a long time, and he goes so far as to call them children of the devil.

Doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

I think it is better to consider these other faiths as challenges and not plagues. They challenge us all to be better Christians. We can get caught up in their short commings and not our own.

Dear Nathan you said:
I say:

Better we look at what was going on during the time that Protestantism took hold in Europe. If we consider that by one account, only sixteen-thousand people were left in Germany because of the religious wars of the reformation, I can't help but feel that something was not quite right in God's eyes. He did allow it, and for Him to do so, he must have had good cause.

You said:

I say:

I think it is because we all use a different yardstick when judging others, and/or we perceive others through our own eyes. In other words, we or they, (by they I mean the Saudi's), see and judge our actions by what their own motives would be.

Then again, we are the world empire and want to remain that 'empire', and they are not and want to become the empire by restoring the Caliphate. Also I don't think they are particularly fond of having us impose our secular modes and morals on them....as we surely tend to do. :rolleyes:

I know that in the Byzantine Empire, Moslems were preferred to Westeners...as many Christians living in the Middle East today still do. Of course it all has to do with the time and place one lives in. If it's a time when the Muslims are aroused against the West and Christians in general, then our experiences can not be too favorable. Hey! Let's not forget Lawrence of Arabia loved the Arabs, and would not create a Kurdistan so that the Arabs would get the oil wells. :p

I personally believe that the majority of Arab and Turkish Muslims are lovely and peaceful people as individuals. The only problem is that they are easily aroused and follow their leaders blindly.

But then again, I'm an American and I consider Americans lovely people...yet when high school students in Quebec were asked if Americans were evil, about 70% said yes. So taking that into account, let's not pay too much attention to what people say.

Zenovia

Nathan,

Let me briefly clarify my position as statetd in my first post. I believe that the reason why Islam (and Protestantism) have taken such a foothold in Catholic and Orthodox lands is because of the weakness of our own faith and praxis. My intention was to point out how these movements arise as a consequence of faithlessness on the part of believers - not necessarily to point out the faults of other faiths.

The experience of your family notwithstanding, I have encountered many good Muslims in my lifetime. My oldest son's best friend a number of years back was a devout Muslim. There are many good aspects to the Muslim faith, including their strong stance on life-issues. (This is why the Vatican and Islam formed an alliance during the Cairo debacle to defeat Hillary Clinton's and planned Parenthood's hijacking of the UN on abortion.)

My experience with Protestants has been far richer and more positive. The Protestant movement was an altogether different phenomenon than what it is today. There is much that can be shared and gained through dialogue and study with Protestants.

Gordo

They also remind us of things we should be doing. People who stop to pray 5 times a day challenge to us to also make time in our lives for God each day. People who may attend church on Sunday more than once can challenge us to make sure we get there at least once on Sunday.

Remember when you look out across to other people and make judgements about what you see, someone is looking back at you doing the very same thing. Ever wondered what others see when they look back at you.

100% Agree.

Andrew

God does not punish. Man makes his own punishment by separating himself from God by sin.

I wonder if that is traditional or humanistic. Don't know.

CDL

LG -

I don't see those two concepts (God's punishment and man's separation) as contradictory at all - they are in fact complimentary truths. To treat them as contradictory, though, is contrary to the data of revelation.

Gordo

This is what happens when I'm not emailed that a post I replied to has been added to... :rolleyes:

I'm not arguing that Protestanism wasn't used by God. Anything and anyone, including Satan himself, can be used by God. It doesn't necessarily make it a good thing or person in the least. God used people all the time in OT to make sure Israel stayed in line.

Please do pardon me if I do not understand fully what you are saying. I do my best. Are you saying that you think my grandparents' vision was through colored glasses? Just to clarify before I say anything else on what you said, I don't want to mistake what you said.


My grandmother is a pretty good person on the whole, however, and a good Catholic to boot. I don't believe she was using the secular measuring stick to view these people. That's half the problem, I think she was using the Catholic glasses, which is not a good sign.

This is not what I think, this is what my grandparents know first hand, which is far different from high school students just taking a random guess at what I, or anyone else for that matter, is like. This is from my grandparents' rather informed personal expererience.

Amen to our weakness. I don't quite know how to voice my opinion on this matter as of yet, for matters such as these I tend to think in analogies and I don't have one just yet.....

It sounds like we're comparing oranges to apples, people to the ideology. Trust me, many of my best friends are not Catholic, some are not even Christian, but atheistic or agnostic. I don't agree with their ideology, and I voice my opinion very strongly when it's time. Just recently I met a Protestant who is as strong in his faith as some of our wonderful seminarians in Pittsburgh. I will personally say that I admire him and wish to graft many of his personal qualities into me.

The actual religion/ideology/world view however, is something that I know is not the full truth, and even a white lie is still a lie. Again, I don't mean to say it like a rabid dog as it appears on the screen, I'm just saying it very manner-of-factly.

As for Muslims themselves, I'm not regarding Muslims in America per se, I'm talking about the ones who live in Muslim countries who seem to be very vile in personality.

Please accept my apologies for coming off strongly as I often do on this board Gordo and company.

Nathan Augustine

No, it's not a curse from God. It's root is from men.

Islam is the result of human error, pride and arrogance. At its root, Islam is a human invention, made by people who think they could invent a religion, better than the one revealed by God.

The scourge of Islam today, has the same root. Pride, error, and arrogance in men. Deny or abandon the Gospel of Christ our true God, and who is left to worship? Only evil and the champion of evil. The scourge is of human origin, not a curse from God.

Nick

Again, I don't disagree with your point. God is not the author of evil. But His permissive (not perfect) will sometimes allows us to invent, create, commit all sorts of evil. He is also the author of the "natural order" of things, however. When we transgress His commandments, we then inherit the consequences of our choices.

It is in that sense that "curses" sometimes come from God, at least IMHO.

Gordo

Friend Gordo!

I think we are in agreement.

Nick