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Posted By: Father Gregory The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 04:12 PM
Note: This is not urging Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Christians to �latinize� (adopt customs from another Church when they didn�t use them before). However, the Rosary remains a part of us who have come from a tradition where it is common: a veritable school of prayer. For those of us, then, here is a version of this practice nicely adapted to the Byzantine tradition, based on a version devised by Ukrainian Catholic priests of the Basilian Order in the 1950s.


Some background: Besides the obvious parallel of the Rosary to the prayer beads used by Orthodox monks and nuns, there were Russian adaptations of the Rosary in the 1700s and 1800s. St Seraphim of Sarov is said to have had one. The Russian �Rule of the Mother of God� consists of praying 150 �Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God� prayers (Hail Marys) a day. Some of the mysteries here are the same as the 12 Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church (Annunciation, Nativity, Ascension, Dormition) while others, especially the Sorrowful Mysteries, have a more Latin emphasis.



You might want to compare this Rosary to the Rule of the Mother of God of St Seraphim (Zvezdinsky), an Orthodox bishop killed by the Soviets in 1937.



About the Rosary in general: St Dominic is said to have introduced it to the Roman Catholic Church. The Revd S.C. Hughson, Order of the Holy Cross (Anglican), wrote in 1918:

�Almost any encyclop�dia will inform the reader that the use of beads in prayer is far older than Christianity itself and belongs to almost every race which has any highly developed system of prayer.



�It will be a surprise to many, no doubt, to know that our common English word bead is derived from the Saxon word bid, to pray, the derivation arising from the fact that our ancestors made common use of perforated pebbles, or beads, upon which to count their prayers. It will be news even to most Catholics to learn that instead of their Rosaries being spoken of as beads because of a resemblance to the common ornament of the name, the ornament takes its name from the Rosary.�



X = Make the sign of the cross.




Start at the crucifix:

X In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.

Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, who art everywhere and fillest all things, Treasury of blessings and Giver of life, come dwell within us, cleanse us from all our sins and save our souls, O gracious Lord.



From Easter until Ascension leave out Glory to Thee and Heavenly King and instead say three times Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life. From Ascension until Pentecost, simply make the sign of the cross � In the Name of the Father � before continuing as usual with:



X Holy God, holy Mighty, holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (Three times)

X Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Most holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. O Master, pardon our transgressions. O Holy One, visit us and heal our infirmities for Thy Name�s sake. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.

X Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.



Then at the first large bead on the pendant:

X Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.



Have mercy on us, O Lord, have mercy on us, for we have no defence: this prayer do we as sinners offer Thee as Master, have mercy on us.
X Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
Lord, have mercy upon us, for we have hoped in Thee. Be not angry with us greatly nor remember our iniquities, but have mercy on us now for Thou art compassionate and deliver us from our enemies. For Thou art our God and we Thy people; all are the works of Thy hands and we call upon Thy name.
Both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Open unto us the doors of compassion, O holy Mother of God, for hoping in thee we will not perish, but through thee will we be delivered from all adversities, for thou art the salvation of Christians.



Lord, have mercy. (12 times)

X Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

X O come, let us worship God our King.
X O come, let us worship and bow down before Christ, our King and our God.
X O come, let us worship and bow down before Christ Himself, our King and our God.




Then you may say Psalm 50 (51), Have mercy on me, O God � or another appropriate psalm � and the Nicene Creed, I believe in one God, the Father almighty.



Then at the first small bead on the pendant:

X Glory to the Father, who hast made us, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.



Then at the second small bead on the pendant:

X Glory to the Son, who hast redeemed us, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God...



Then at the third small bead on the pendant:

X Glory to the Holy Spirit, who hast enlightened us, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God...

X Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.



The decades or mysteries are as in the Latin (Dominican) Rosary, with an Our Father, 10 �Rejoice O Virgin Mother of God� (Hail Mary) prayers and the �Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit�. After each decade one may say the F�tima prayer: O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy.



The mysteries are:

JOYFUL: Annunciation, Visitation of Our Lady to St Elisabeth, Nativity of Christ, Presentation of the Child Jesus in the Temple, Finding of the Boy Jesus in the Temple.

SORROWFUL: Agony in the Garden, Scourging at the Pillar, Crowning with Thorns, Jesus Carries the Cross, Crucifixion.

GLORIOUS: Resurrection, Ascension, Descent of the Holy Spirit, Dormition/Assumption and Crowning of Our Lady in Glory in Heaven.

Traditionally you pray the Joyful Mysteries Mondays and Thursdays, the Sorrowful Mysteries Tuesdays and Fridays, and the Glorious Mysteries Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays.



In 2002 the Pope added another set of mysteries that may be prayed Thursdays, changing Saturday�s set to another round of the Joyful ones.

LUMINOUS: Baptism of Christ in the Jordan (Theophany, Богоявление), the Wedding at Cana, Jesus Proclaims the Kingdom, the Transfiguration (Преображение) and the Institution of the Eucharist.



Closing Prayer

JOYFUL MYSTERIES: It is truly proper to glorify thee, who hast borne God, the ever-blessed and immaculate and the Mother of our God! More honorable than the cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim art thou, who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word. Thou truly the Mother of God, we magnify!

SORROWFUL MYSTERIES: We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our prayers in our necessities but deliver us from all danger, O glorious and ever-blessed Virgin.

X Most holy Mother of God, save us. (Three times with bows)

GLORIOUS MYSTERIES: To thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of victory and thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Mother of God: but as one with invincible might, from all dangers deliver us that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!

Her devoted servant,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Tony Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 04:22 PM
Fr Gregory,

Bless!

I have seen the Bogorodichnoe Pravilo in more than one Orthodox prayer book from Russia and Ukraine. Yet, I have a few questions about it.

It does not seem to contain the mysteries that the Rosary does. Also, I haven't seen any reference to using the Latin-style Rosary (beads) to pray the Bogorodichnoe Pravilo.

Further, its use seems restricted to the areas of Russia and Ukraine, do you know if it is used by any others?

Where it is used does it play the role the Rosary does in the West of a sort of all-purpose para-liturgical prayer used before Liturgy, at a funeral home, etc?

I would appreciate it if you comment on this please.

Tony
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 04:48 PM
I have no objection whatsoever to those who want to pray the Latin Rite, or Dominican, rosary as a private devotion. But some of the claims made are a bit of a stretch. Yes, I understand St. Seraphim of Sarov said 150 hail Marys. But it would have been his hymn to the Theotokos, not the Latin Rite Hail Mary. As I understand it, he didn't meditate on the 15 (now 20) mysteries, and didn't say the Fatima prayers between decades. I am willing to admit he said Eastern hail Marys, but it's a real stretch to extend that and claim he said the rosary. I am afraid that some claims made by rosary proponents often approach Al Gore's claims of inventing the Internet in terms of being believable - whether Gore actually said that or not is unclear. Proponents of that devotion do go a bit far at times and I think they connect unrelated happenings to reinforce the legitimacy of the devotion. Keep in mind, I said I have no objection to the rosary, just to some of the unprovable hype for it.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 04:52 PM
Dear Tony,

Don't you just LOVE Father Gregory? smile smile

There are several Orthodox versions of the Rule - St Seraphim's had no mysteries, but special prayers at the end of each "desiatnitsa" or decade.

St Seraphim Zvezdinsky did have mysteries.

The Nuns of Diveyevo still pray the Rule as St Seraphim instructed them, walking around the ditch around their monastery.

The Jordanville book that outlines Monastic Rules of prayer mentions that on Mount Athos the younger monastics especially are urged to say up to 150 Hail Mary's daily, with a prostration at the end of each - and 150 Our Father's as well.

The Rule was always a private devotion and was never, in the East, intended as a parliturgical devotion before the Liturgy etc.

However, in this Rule to the Nuns of Diveyevo, St Seraphim DID insist that they sing the Paraclisis to the Theotokos before the Sunday Liturgy as a "must" and also the daily Akathist to the Mother of God.

St Seraphim Zvezdinsky appears to have recited the Rule of the Mother of God in Church with the rule of the Jesus Prayer with monastics . . .

Alex
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 04:54 PM
Basically we agree...my sole point is that prayer is prayer is prayer---etc. etc. And as for the 'Fatima Prayer' between the decades, there is nothing dogmatically wrong with it: O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fire of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those who have most need of Your mercy! I say: Good prayer...and I like it!

In His Holy Name,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 04:59 PM
P.S. I'll go further...(after being Orthodox for almost 30 years!)...I say the Rosary every single day (the Scriptural Rosary) and I have a priestmonk-friend from the Synod Abroad who does the same thing. Again: Prayer is prayer is prayer is prayer, etc...just as long as there is nothing dogmatically wrong with the form---I'd venture to say, stop talking about prayer---and PRAY! wink

Her Devoted servant,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:00 PM
Dear Charles,

The fact is that St Seraphim Zvezdinsky and others mentioned in "Staretz Zechariah: An early Soviet Saint" (I didn't know the Soviets had saints! wink ), did recite their decades to mysteries.

And Zvezdinsky's mysteries had a much more Marian bent than anything the RC Church came up with!

There were also some Russian Monastic Saints who ONLY said the "Hail Mary" in the Eastern version, of course INSTEAD of the Jesus Prayer!

AND St Seraphim of Sarov used to say that the daily Rule of 150 "Rejoice O Theotokos Virgin" is MORE IMPORTANT for the procuring of the blessing of the Mother of God on our lives than even the akathist!

He insisted that his spiritual children recite it daily, as a "must."

One need not use the Fatima prayer or any other Western augmentation of the Rosary.

I say the Fatima decade prayer only because . . . I always have.

I've tried to say the Rule without it, I really have, please believe me . . .

But I'm weak, truly weak . . . my mouth just forms the words to that prayer . . . I guess it's just bigger than me.

I just gave up trying to say the Rule without the Fatima decade prayer.

I can't do it, there's something possessing me to keep on saying it.

Pray for me, brother Charles! wink

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:02 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

The Russian Orthodox in Russia are DEEPLY devoted to the Ros. . . er, Rule of the Mother of God!

And why aren't you signing yourself as "Archimandrite?"

IF it's any of my business . . .

On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, I use the Stations of the Cross as mysteries for my Ros . . Rule of the Mother of God.

And, to make up the 20 mysteries, I include a decade for each of the Seven Words of Christ on the Cross (following the 11th Station of the Nailing of Christ to the Precious Cross).

The Rosary/Rule is miracle-working and it protected me from an attack by would-be terrorist assailants last year - I can speak to you further about this in private.

I salute you, Holy Father, as a true child of St Seraphim of Sarov and servant of the Most Holy Theotokos!

Alex
Posted By: Sharon Mech Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:21 PM
My spiritual father is a Dominican (Biritual), and I sorta kinda took up the Rosary a couple years ago in deference to that fact.

I've seen a lot of TV ads these days about the cargo hauling capacity of various overpriced trucks and SUVs. Huh. Those hunks of scrap metal don't hold a candle to the cargo-hauling capacity of that little string o' beads...........


Sharon
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:28 PM
As I said, I have no objection if anyone wants to say the rosary as a private devotion. When you have dealt with Latinized BCs who want to say it before Divine Liturgy, it kind of sours things. Some of the more extreme proponents of that devotion can get a little overbearing with it and make outlandish claims for it.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:35 PM
Dear Charles,

Yes, you are right.

Those people who are always talking about the rosary and urging others to say it all the time.

They can be a bit much . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:37 PM
Dear Mother Sharon,

(And this is my LAST post for the day, lest I give the Administrator ulcers!)

You remind me of the time Saint Dominic was accosted by a possessed man during his sermons.

St Dominic threw his long rosary over the man and held him at bay until the demons left him.

St Louis de Montfort compares it to a "new sling" of David by which we fell the spiritual "Goliath . . ."

I like that, don't you?

Alex
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Charles,

Yes, you are right.

Those people who are always talking about the rosary and urging others to say it all the time.

They can be a bit much . . . wink

Alex
Alex, as I have said before, it's a good private devotion. But those beads do not have magical powers - idolatry - and it is never a valid substitution for prescribed liturgical practices.
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 05:57 PM
Dear Alex, +May HE Who is Risen bless you! It's really between me and my confessor/spiritual father? But since you asked, it's for the same reason that Archbishop Andrew of Nova Diveevo made his cell-attendent shave off his beard: to war better with pride.

In His Holy Name,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 06:07 PM
Bless, Father Gregory!

So I guess it's like the Administrator recommending that I limit my posting here? wink

To war better with pride and with a few more other vices . . .

You are and always will be our spiritual Archimandrite!!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 06:09 PM
Dearest Charles,

No argument there!

But that beads or prayer ropes can have miraculous powers - that is part of Catholic/Orthodox tradition.

The "Way of the Pilgrim" actually has a passage where the issue of how a holy Elder's prayer rope can have miraculous powers (from God, of course) is discussed.

St Pio of Pietrelcina's rosary exudes a wonderful fragrance - a miracle in itself!

The same is true for any sacramental by which God chooses to do His Work.

Alex
Posted By: Tammy Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 06:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
As I said, I have no objection if anyone wants to say the rosary as a private devotion. When you have dealt with Latinized BCs who want to say it before Divine Liturgy, it kind of sours things. Some of the more extreme proponents of that devotion can get a little overbearing with it and make outlandish claims for it.
Dear byzanTN,

A Byzantine parish my family used to attend did just that - they prayed the rosary before Divine Liturgy. It used to drive my husband nuts! He loves the rosary but doesn't feel it should supplant the Orthros in a Byzantine parish.

When he tried to encourage the use of the chotki, the (mostly Latin Rite) parishioners told him, "oh, but the Rosary has an indulgence and the chotki doesn't."

Tammy
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 06:43 PM
Dear Tammy,

So they begged your husband's indulgence, did they? smile

How is our champion Beadswoman?!

I just LOVE the beads you made for me . . .

Everyone, this is Tammy the Rosary-Maker!

Put in those orders for Christmas!!

God bless!

Alex
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 07:05 PM
Dear Tony, +May the LORD bless you always! The groups of Orthodox that pray the Rosary are several: Russian Orthodox Monastics, Carpathio- Rusins, some Belarusians, and the Russian Old Believers (Old Rite Orthodox). Those are the groups that I know of, although there are probably more. In many Carpatho-Russian parishes the Rosary was chanted before the Liturgy (and not necessarily in place OF Matins of the day, but in addition to!). There are fewer and fewer of these parishes doing this today. It kind of reminds me of the Prayer Rule at St. John the Baptist Monastery in Essex, England where the Chotki is chanted quietly in a very regular tone in place of the Hours as their prayer rule.

I always remember an holy and gentle elderly Carpatho-Russian priest (since reposed) who was pastor of a small and VERY difficult parish on the East Coast. We visited him once and asked about his parish and he told us, "Well Fathers some Sunday mornings I get up and look out the window at the church and knowing all the nastiness I'm probably going to face when I go over there---I turn often to Pani and say, "Would to be a lot nicer just to stay home and pray the Rosary?" Having spent 18 years in a VERY difficult Byelorussian emigre parish...I can tell you honestly, I've OFTEN had the same desire. smile

Again: Prayer is prayer is prayer...etc. etc.!

May we ALL do more of it and less talk ABOUT it!

In His Holy Name,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/08/04 10:49 PM
Trappist Father Basil Pennington in Praying by Hand says (p.33): "Of the many ways in which the Rosary can be prayed, no one is (necessarily) better than the others. Using one rather than another does not mark a certain progress in prayer. On a particular day or at a particular time of day, for one reason or another, one approach to praying the beads might better suit us or be more attractive to us ... Remember always, prayer is the thing. Communion with God is what we are about, what we are interested in � not saying the Rosary well or in the most 'advanced' way. We want to pray."

Personally, I believe that the Holy Rosary is a gift to all who would wish to use it...a gift from the Mother of God and from the Church. It is NOT more 'Eastern' to use a chotki...nor is it any less 'Orthodox' to do so. Use what works best for YOU. For me it is among the MOST comforting of prayers and more 'liturgical' than many others. Meditation on the 'mysteries of our salvation' and specifically on the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Our Divine Savior must be among THE best ways to unite ourselves with Him in prayer? In the end, the Rosary helped to make a Saint out of my grandmother and my mother...and countless millions of others over the centuries---can it not do something for me too, poor sinner that I am?

I remember a young archimandrite (from the Carpatho-Russian Diocese) who use to mock the practice of some older women from their diocese using the Rosary. He called it a "Roman Catholic devotion" and one not worthy of an Orthodox Christian. Where is he now? He left...both the priesthood and the monastic state. Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos told me once, "Father don't ever forget your roots and the great gifts you received from them"---I've failed at times, but thanks be to God and His Most Holy Mother, I hope I'm getting better at it as I age. May it be so!

MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE US!

Her faithful and poorest son,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 03:25 AM
I attend a Carpatho-Rusyn Byzantine parish. We recently had a parish "town hall" meeting. One of the presenters represented the Confraternity of the Rosary, who recite the Rosary before the Divine Liturgy, along with some Rusyn hymns. He pointed out that his grandmother, who had been left in the Old World while his grandfather came to America to get established, had started praying the Rosary with some of the other women who had been left behind, as well as engaging in Apostolic works, under the direction of the local bishop.
When it came time for her husband to summon her to join him in Ohio, she was reluctant to go! She had become accustomed to living this evangelical life. In sorrow, she consulted the bishop. He instructed her to take the Rosary devotion to her new home, to organize the women of her new community to pray it. And so she did, and the Rosary has continued to be prayed before Liturgy to this day in the parish.
He ended, in reply to the "purist" critics: "this has been done for four generations in this church; if that is not tradition, then what is?"
Amen, and amen.
-Daniel
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 01:01 PM
"He ended, in reply to the "purist" critics: "this has been done for four generations in this church; if that is not tradition, then what is?"
Amen, and amen.
-Daniel"

I call it Latinization. As I have said before, I have no objection to the rosary as a private devotion. My experience, however, is that the rosary often supplants and replaces valid Eastern devotions. That I don't like! If that church is doing the rosary AND the prayers prescribed to be said before Divine Liturgy, then fine. If the rosary is replacing prescribed prayers, it should be stopped, or the appropriate prayers added.
Posted By: John K Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 04:37 PM
ByzanTN wrote: "As I have said before, I have no objection to the rosary as a private devotion. My experience, however, is that the rosary often supplants and replaces valid Eastern devotions. That I don't like! If that church is doing the rosary AND the prayers prescribed to be said before Divine Liturgy, then fine. If the rosary is replacing prescribed prayers, it should be stopped, or the appropriate prayers added."

I for one, would be happy to LEAD the rosary before the liturgy on a sunday morning, if I could get one pastor, somewhere, to have VESPERS on saturday night.
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 05:03 PM
Dear TN, The danger I guess is that we become Pharisaical about our prayers...and are more concerned about what is the "proper prayer" than what works for the people of a given community? In my former emigre parish in Queens, NY, we did the 3RD and 6TH Hours always before Liturgy (as the Typikon of St. Sabbas prescribes) and yet the people present were busy going to Confession or saying their Prayers Before Holy Communion or reading the daily prayers from their prayerbooks or even (for a few) using their chotkies. NO ONE ever listened to the chanting of the Hours. And after 18 years, even I gave up trying to get them to do so. Besides, the Psalms (my personal MOST favorite prayerbook) need a good deal of Scriptural study BEFORE a person can pray them. I had this in my monastic training and in seminary, but the average person has had little or NO Biblical study. I didn't have the time to do extensive preaching on the Psalms...but I tried to weave them into my regular preaching on the Gospel text of the day. The question therefore becomes: Should we do what has always been done and what the 'law' (ustav) prescribes or pray together the Jesus Prayer out loud or say, perhaps the Pre-Communion Prayers before Liturgy? I guess you'd say the first...and I would prefer the later...because I don't think the Hours are suppose to be 'filler' but rather actual P R A Y E R. When all is said and done, I must ask myself: having kept the "rule" are my people going to be closer to the Lord or farther away? (that's a pastoral question, I know, but still one that is VERY important for those of us who must answer one day before the Awesome Judgment Seat of Christ.) Personally after almost 40 years as a monk and 25 as a priest, I'm always going to go for the 'means' by which my people can be brought closer to the Lord. That's just my 4 cents worth.

My best to you!

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 06:40 PM
Fr. Gregory, in large measure, I agree with you. You are talking about doing the best you can in a less than ideal situation. But you are not being disobedient and doing what you want, instead of what you are supposed to do. There is a huge difference there.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 06:44 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

My grandfather, Fr. John, used to tell me about his experiences in this regard.

He said that when he worked at a Slovak Greek-Catholic parish, the people all came with their prayerbooks and they all sang with their Cantor - a very sophisticated group of Eastern Christians, as he said.

Others were less sophisticated . . . but nonetheless sincere about their prayer life.

I used to go to confession to my grandfather and I loved receiving the benefit of his years of experience (he was a priest for seventy years, when Josef Slipyj was arrested by the communists, Met. Josef ordered his livestock be brought to my grandfather's farm for safe-keeping until he returned!)

I once confessed to him that I had missed my prayers.

Until that point, Fr. John was listening calmly to me.

But at that, he jumped on me and sad, "Don't you EVER do that! There's no excuse for that, you know! No matter what distractions or busyness you have, don't forget to fulfill your "rule" (I didn't then know what he meant and I didn't ask for an explanation).

"You can use any prayer, even a short "Lord have mercy!"

He used to say the Hours regularly, at the appointed times (I still have his horologion).

But he preferred to walk about and pray using the Our Father and Hail Mary.

As I learned from him, prayer can be most effective when it is done frequently and with the simplest of forms.

The rosary is a simple form of prayer that has taught me to contemplate the mysteries of Christ through the window of His Incarnation and His Most Holy Mother.

It goes to the centre of our Christian faith and is very accessible to one and all, to simple folk and learned scholars.

The Orthodox nuns of Diveyevo walk around the perimeter of their monastery to recite the rosary/rule because St Seraphim taught them that the Mother of God herself walks that path once each day . . .

They recite the rosary/rule together, out loud, as they all walk together. On Sundays and feasts, they sing the Rule together.

If people wish to recite the rosary before Divine Liturgy, well, what can one do? smile

It does indeed bring one closer to the Mysteries of Christ that the Divine LIturgy celebrates and makes the Incarnation VERY real to us.

When I receive Holy Communion, the experience is heightened for me when, at that moment, I recite the Magnificat and am united deeply (as I feel I am) to Christ and His Mother.

It is as if they meet together within my soul and I am watching them speak to one another!

I wonder what they are talking about? Do you think it could be about me and what I need to do to grow in union with Christ and the Holy Trinity?

I'm content to experience a little of that joy!

My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit exults in God my Saviour!!

Kissing your right hand, Venerable Father, I implore your blessing once more,

Your unworthy servant,

Alex
Posted By: Unsubscribe Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/09/04 10:02 PM
Can I add a simple "Thank You, Father Gregory" for your most welcome posting on the rosary. Your intentions will always be included in my prayers.
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:05 AM
Hey Tennessee- If four generations of a devotion, one many of us believe was revealed and encouraged by the Mother of God, represents not a legitimate Eastern Catholic [remember?] devotion, then may I suggest that you are perhaps a bit ideological in your approach to things? As Fr Gregory says, prayer is prayer. Or are Eastern Catholics to have no distinctive marks? Are we to be merely second class, and not even duly recognized, Orthodox?
Thank God you are not a pastor; your purist attitudes would scandalize the simple faithful, which some of us consider the true barometer of orthodoxy.
-Daniel, the beadsman
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
Hey Tennessee- If four generations of a devotion, one many of us believe was revealed and encouraged by the Mother of God, represents not a legitimate Eastern Catholic [remember?] devotion, then may I suggest that you are perhaps a bit ideological in your approach to things? As Fr Gregory says, prayer is prayer. Or are Eastern Catholics to have no distinctive marks? Are we to be merely second class, and not even duly recognized, Orthodox?
Thank God you are not a pastor; your purist attitudes would scandalize the simple faithful, which some of us consider the true barometer of orthodoxy.
-Daniel, the beadsman
No, what I am getting at is that when people disregard lawful authority and legitimate directions to do as they please, then a problem exists. I could see, as Fr. Gregory indicated, making a decision based on his experiences for the good of all. But willful disobedience is another matter. There is no "purity" in willful disobedience.
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:18 AM
Uh, if you recall the grandmother in question who initiated this devotion in my parish did so at the direct order of her bishop . How in the heck does this constitute disobedience? Even if you argue that said bishop was a Latinizer [and given the age, this may well be so] by now it is an established tradition in this particular community. I thought that one of the guiding principles of Eastern Christianity was a hearty respect for localism.
-Daniel, Eastern purist, but open to the Holy Spirit
Posted By: Hesychios Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:25 AM
Hi Daniel,
I don't think that ByzanTN has said anything out of line.

I agree with him. The rosary can be said anywhere, at any agreed time or place.

We still need to restore the Divine Praises, if the rosary is in the way it should move.

However, I can also agree with John K who said:
Quote
I for one, would be happy to LEAD the rosary before the liturgy on a sunday morning, if I could get one pastor, somewhere, to have VESPERS on saturday night.


If compromises must be made, sure let's do it. Let's restore the proper prayer of the church in one way or another.

Michael
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
Uh, if you recall the grandmother in question who initiated this devotion in my parish did so at the direct order of her bishop . How in the heck does this constitute disobedience? Even if you argue that said bishop was a Latinizer [and given the age, this may well be so] by now it is an established tradition in this particular community. I thought that one of the guiding principles of Eastern Christianity was a hearty respect for localism.
-Daniel, Eastern purist, but open to the Holy Spirit
I was actually thinking more about a situation that existed here at one time. People who knew what was required were so attached to the rosary, they substituted it for approved pre-Liturgy prayers. That's no longer the case, but what good is authority if you don't follow it. If the lady you are talking about had her bishop's approval, then more power to her.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:33 AM
Quote
We still need to restore the Divine Praises, if the rosary is in the way it should move.
Yes, we do need to restore the Divine Praises. Those prayers are very powerful and do much good. It's too bad they are frequently neglected.
Posted By: Gaudior Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
Uh, if you recall the grandmother in question who initiated this devotion in my parish did so at the direct order of her bishop . How in the heck does this constitute disobedience? Even if you argue that said bishop was a Latinizer [and given the age, this may well be so] by now it is an established tradition in this particular community. I thought that one of the guiding principles of Eastern Christianity was a hearty respect for localism.
-Daniel, Eastern purist, but open to the Holy Spirit
Dear Daniel,

I think you are willfully misunderstanding Charles. Where in your original tale does it say that her bishop told her to organize a group to pray the rosary INSTEAD OF an established service of the church? Charles is objecting, not to a group being formed to pray the rosary, not to the rosary being used in private devotions, but to the replacement of Matins by the rosary.

In this, he is quite correct, in that if you think that a bishop in another diocese can send someone into a diocese controlled by another bishop, and tell them that she had his blessing to replace a service of the church with the Rosary, you've really got another thought coming. The bishop in question would have no authority in Ohio to do any such thing, as it wasn't his jurisdiction!

It would be different, of course, if the first bishop was to call the second bishop, and consult with the parish priest and recommend that the lady be allowed to start a group to pray the rosary, at some time OTHER THAN the time the church ustav states that other ervices should be happening.

Gaudior, who thinks that there is nothing wrong with corporate prayer of an approved fashion, unless it interferes with the regularly scheduled services
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:36 AM
At the time this practice was initiated the juridical situation was a bit confused; if you recall, the Rusin churches were quite unnaturally and illegitimately under the Latin bishops; Rusin priests may be forgiven if they had ties to the Old Country.Remember that Rusin Catholic history is one of contention and much confusion.
My parish seems to meet all the criteria: yes, a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop initiated the practice and we have Saturday evening vespers. If I know our pastor, I am sure in time that in addition to the Rosary of Our Lady we will have Matins before the liturgy.
-Daniel
Posted By: Gaudior Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 02:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
My parish seems to meet all the criteria: yes, a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop initiated the practice and we have Saturday evening vespers. If I know our pastor, I am sure in time that in addition to the Rosary of Our Lady we will have the proper prayers before the liturgy.
Wonderful...best of all worlds!

Gaudior, pleased that your pastor is one who will restore the services of the Church
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:03 AM
Quote
My parish seems to meet all the criteria: yes, a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop initiated the practice and we have Saturday evening vespers. If I know our pastor, I am sure in time that in addition to the Rosary of Our Lady we will have Matins before the liturgy.
-Daniel
Sounds good to me!
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:06 AM
Isn't it nice [and rare] when we can come to a conclusion where everyone is happy? smile cool smile biggrin
Now go, pray the Rosary, all of you.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by iconophile:
Isn't it nice [and rare] when we can come to a conclusion where everyone is happy? smile cool smile biggrin
Now go, pray the Rosary, all of you.
I will pray, but not the rosary. :p I am more likely to get out the Psalms or Byzantine evening prayers.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 01:58 PM
Dear Charles,

If you think we're going to let you off so easy, you are mistaken! smile

I thought as you long ago.

I would like to recommend that you try the rosary with a word or words added to the Hail Mary's that relate to the mysteries of the Life, Death and Resurrection of OLGS Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Theotokos.

Once I tried that, there was no going back!

Try it, you might like it . . .

And St Louis de Montfort said this about the Rosary, or, as he preferred to call it, the Psalter of Our Lady - he said that priests and monastics, when they recited the Marian Psalter daily found that they were MORE inclined to be pulled toward the Horologion and the Psalter than ever before!

The Psalter of the Mother of God in my life has done just that - I want to say the Jesus Prayer and the Horologion and the Psalter and it produces a fire within one to desire these things - as well as frequent Holy Communion at the Divine LIturgy!

So TRY it, you might like it . . .

Alex
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:19 PM
Alex, I have tried it and it doesn't do a thing for me. Like you said, it's 5 decades long. I prefer our Eastern devotions, and they generally don't have all the hysteria surrounding them that one gets from rosary advocates. No visions, questionable apparitions, and even more questionable histories that are often quoted as evidence for the rosary. If you like the rosary and derive some spiritual benefit from it, fine, you should pray it. Notice that I never said anyone else should stop praying it. The traditional prayers from the East are just as good, just as valid, and have as much or more going for them as the rosary.
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:27 PM
MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE US!

I remember a story told by one priestmonk several years ago: a priest was trying to escape from Russia at the time of the Revolution (when it was most difficult to travel for anyone)...and of course this priest, although in civilian dress, could be recognized by his beard and 'ponytail.' An elder from Optina told him NOT to ever get off the train and to be constantly saying during the whole trip the 'angelic salutation' (the Hail Mary) because the Mother of God was GREATLY pleased by this prayer and she would protect him during the journey. The priest did as he was told, but somewhere along the line he got out of the train to stretch and was recognized by the police who tried to take him into custody. Then he remembered the words of the elder and he begin to say again the Hail Mary---and the police released him...and he lived many years in exile in this country. What struck me about the story was not so much the release by the police, but rather the elder's words about how much the Mother of God loved to hear the prayer. What better way to carry out this 'rule of prayer' than to say the Rosary in her honor? The Rosary helps us to remain focused by adding the meditation on the Mysteries of our Salvation...and so it is easier to remain recollected and to be attentive to our prayers.

I seems to me, that those who choose not to use the Rosary...have less of a way to carry out this prayer rule of praising the Mother of God with some regularity...unless they say the Akathist or some other prayer, and we all know that the more complex the prayer, the more difficult it often is to pray without distraction. Just my honest thoughts...I mean no disrespect to anyone. The important thing again is to use the method of prayer that is best for YOU. Real/true devotion to the Mother of God MUST have some kind of REGULAR DAILY expression or it seems to me that it is not real/authentic, but just words...whether it is the Rosary or the Canon to the Theotokos or the Little Office or whatever, it seems to me that we ALL need to have some regular daily form of expression of love and devotion to Her who is higher than the angels...even if it is just 3 Hail Mary's a day. Whatever words for YOU.

Whatever method you use, I ask for one tiny prayer for me...and I shall definitely remember each of you in my poor prayers daily.

Her poorest son,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:33 PM
Quote
Whatever method you use, I ask for one tiny prayer for me...and I shall definitely remember each of you in my poor prayers daily.

Her poorest son,
+Fr. Gregory
Thank you, that's kind of you to remember all of us. And btw, I think quite highly of the Mother of God, I just don't express it with the rosary. That prayer, although useful to many, is not the only way to pray - as some would have us believe. I think you touch on that quite nicely, and you have also mentioned that praying is the thing that's important, by whatever method that works best for the individual. Many prayers for you.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:35 PM
Dear Charles,

I agree we should only do Eastern devotions!

Here is a great Eastern prayer:

"Rejoice O Theotokos-Virgin, Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with you, Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, for you have given birth to Christ the Saviour, the Redeemer of our souls!"

And when meditating on the Crucifixion, one could say, at the end:

"for you have given birth to Christ the Saviour, from Whose Side flowed Blood and Water, the Redeemer of our souls!"

I share your love for our Eastern devotions!

( wink )

Oh, Oh, and before I forget, St Seraphim of Sarov and a whole host of other Orthodox Saints had all kinds of visions of the Mother of God and of Saints.

St Seraphim even took down a monastic prayer rule that was dictated by "you know who!"

God bless,

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:41 PM
Bless, Father Gregory!

You just have such a wonderful way with words!! smile

And you are right!

I have a cord-rosary from a lady in Louisiana that I always keep with me.

No matter where I am, on the forum talking with Jennifer, or wherever, I take out that cord-rosary or prayer rope and the prayers are there to celebrate the mysteries of the life, death and resurrection of OLGS Jesus Christ while praising His Most Holy Mother!

Before going on a cruise of the Caribbean, my wife went on one of her shopping sprees in Ft. Lauderdale the day before we were to go aboard.

I had nothing to do but wait out the whole day . . . More than a few decades were said that day, suffice it to say!

After our cruise, we all received press reports that the day the cruise was to set sail, FIVE men dressed as U.S. security guards tried to get on board but were caught as their ID's were not in order.

They were, as I understand it, quite fluent in Arabic . . .

Most Holy Mother of God - thank you!!

P.s. and your words about how important the Hail Mary is - St Seraphim would agree with you! He had it on the Highest Authority!!

(you don't think I'm deluded, do you? wink )

Alex
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:42 PM
Alex, I guess you can tell by now that I am not an "apparition oriented" person. I think everything we need to know has been revealed to us by the apostles. Other things may not take away from that, but they don't really add to it. So enjoy your Eastern devotions - it's always rewarding to hear that others prize them as the jewels that they are - and say your rosary, too, if it adds spiritual benefit to you. As Fr. Gregory indicated, it's the praying that's important.
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:47 PM
MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS SAVE US!

Some of you may enjoy this. A history of the Rosary...and how throughout the centuries the faithful (both Eastern and Western peoples) have, with their prayers woven a 'garland of flowers' for the Mother of God.

Rosary History:

1st - 2nd CENTURY AD ~

~ AMEN ~ From the Hebrew verb �aman�which means �to confirm� or �strengthen�, it dates back to Old Testament times as a liturgical response in the synagogue. Used by Christ, (also�verily�or �truly�), in the New Testament, it was carried into the Christian Liturgy as a response and an ending to prayer.

~ SIGN OF THE CROSS ~ Tertullian writes, �... we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross� which stems from the Old Testament (Ezekial 9:4) comments on marking an X on the foreheads of the innocent and (Revelations 7:3, 9:4 and 14:1) the seal on the forehead of the chosen and is seen as a life giving symbol. (See Exodus 17:9-14)

~ APOSTLES CREED ~ Tradition tells us it is the teaching of the Apostles themselves and is an overview of the Christian faith. It is believed to be part of the baptismal prayer or rite of new Christians since the beginning. The earliest written form known is Tertullian in 200AD. The present form dates before 700AD.

~ 65 - 150 AD ~ SYRIA ~ The Didache, the Apostolic catechism for the new church, is formed. People are encouraged to say the Lord�s Prayer as commanded in Scripture (Matt. 6: 9-13). They are told, �Three times in the day, thus pray�. Still honoured at Mass and Liturgy of the Hours; Lauds and Vespers.

It also instructs them to baptise �In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,� �in living water�. If it is not available they are to use �other water,� ... and if the water is not �cold, then warm,� if neither available, they are to �pour water on the head 3 times� for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

NOTE~
Latter part of the 4th century, the OUR FATHER will become an official part of the Mass.

St. Benedict has a monastic rose garden called a 'Rosary'.

5th CENTURY ~

~ 430 AD ~ The prayer and the bead is connecting. They are mentioned by St. Augustine and adopted into the church as a counting device but have little resemblance to the Rosary of today. He is quoted as saying that when we devoutly say the Our Father, �Our venial sins are forgiven�.

~ 431 AD ~ TURKEY ~ The Council of Ephesus declares Mary as Theotokos (God-bearer). This is in response to heretics of the time who say Mary is, �Mother of Christ,� not God. The people of Ephesus riot. Taking to the streets and carrying torches they shout, �Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners ...�

7th CENTURY ~

~ 600s ~ IRELAND ~ Monks are keeping track of the Psalter (150 Psalms) on knotted cords. Those, generally the laity, who cannot read (Latin) say the Divine Office by setting 150 knots on a cord and use them to chant the Paternoster, which is also known as the �poor man�s breviary�.

~ 600s ~ RUSSIA ~ It is recorded that the Byzantine Church has embraced a knotted woollen prayer cord called a 'Chotki' chaplet). This Byzantine Rosary has varying numbers of knots (33-100 or 300, some with larger knot at the beginning of each decade). The mantra or prayer said on each knot varies but generally it is, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner' or 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner' Adapted from Luke 18:9-14, the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, in which the latter was 'justified through humility'). It is also know as the Jesus Prayer.

~ 600s ~ People in continental Europe are beginning to use the knots to count 150 �Ave�s�, but only saying the Angel�s greeting, �Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you.� (Elizabeth�s greeting will become more universally used in the 12th century.)

~ 659 AD ~ BELGIUM ~The Abbess Gertrude of Nivelles is discovered with fragments of prayer beads in her tomb. It seems to be custom as many are found buried during this time with beads wrapped around their fingers.

8th CENTURY ~

~ 700s ~ The Apostles Creed is formed as we know it now. People pray the Psalter (150 Psalms) for the souls of deceased and there is a new written guide or rule book regarding penitents and how many Paters are to be said depending on sins confessed. Strings of beads helped the penitent to count. Many wear their beads as a sign of their sorrow.

~ 782 AD ~ It is traditional for the monks of St. Apollinaris to say 300 Kyrie Eleisons (Lord have mercy), Christe Eleison (Christ have mercy) twice a day in gratitude for the pope�s benefactors.

~ 11th CENTURY ~

~ 1000s ~ Regionally, the Ave prayer is beginning to replace the Paternoster. The Paternoster knots and beads are being integrated into a structural framework by spacing 150 Ave�s into decades or groups of 10. It is believed this prayer to Mary is imitating God�s love for her.

~ 1014 AD ~ GERMANY - Blessed Herman is born a cripple - deformed from birth. (1014 - 1054) The monks at Richneau Abbey take care of him from birth and he will become a Benedictine monk in 1034 at the age of 20. He will make musical instruments and when he becomes blind, he will write hymns. The Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen) will be his best known. He knows well the suffering - as he writes ��to you we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears� It will be recited as a standard prayer at the conclusion of the rosary centuries later. (His feast day is 25 September.)


~ 12th CENTURY ~

~ 1100s ~ It is becoming more common to see people carry a �Paternoster cord� (50 count or �fifties� to be repeated 3 times instead of traditional longer strand of 150 (called �Na-tri-coicat�). By the second half of the century, the full scriptural half of the Ave is becoming a formula of prayer, adding �Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.� (The petition or second half is still not a formal part of prayer on beads.)

~ 1128 AD ~ The Knights Templar, (known for protecting pilgrims) if unable to attend the choir are to repeat the Lord�s Prayer (normally sung) 57 times. When one of the bretheren dies, they say the Pater Noster 100 times a day for 7 days. (This is called �two fifties�.)

~ 1140 AD ~ A contemporary of St. Albert�s, wrote how he (Albert), bent his knees in prayer 100 times a day and prostrated himself �raising his body by his fingers and toes� 50 times while repeating the Annunciation part of the Hail Mary. There are general instructions for various physical exercises or signs of devotion while praying. It is a familiar custom during this century.

~ 1160 AD ~ ITALY ~ Palermo - Saint Rosalia (Virgin - 1132 - 1166), a relative of Emperor Charlemagne, became a hermit in love of Jesus as a young girl. In 1625, her remains would be accidentally found by a hunter in the cave on Mt Palermo where she lived. She was found 'with a little string of little beads that ended in a cross'. Palermo was suffering under a terrible epidemic of the plague in 1625. Her remains were carried through the city and the plague disappeared that day. In thanksgiving, Palermo celebrates this event for 3 days, 13 to the 15th of July. It is said she would weave garlands of mountain flowers and wild roses, offering them to the Lord as she hung them on a terra cotta crucifix.

~ 1198 AD ~ Bishop Ordo of Siliac during the Synod, required the clergy make sure that not only was the Creed and the Pater being recited but to add the Ave. This created a new interest and soon it is being included in the councils of many other countries to do the same. It becomes very popular into the next century.


13th CENTURY ~

~ 1200s ~ The Psalter of Our Lady becomes the prayer as people pray 150 Ave�s. The term Rosary is applied.

A legend travelling through Europe tells of Mary taking rosebuds from the lips of a young monk as he recited the Ave�s. She wove them into a garland and placed it upon her head. This Rosary prayer is called �pneums�.

~ 1200s ~ Makers of prayer beads, called �Paternosters�, form craft guilds that specialize in beads of a particular material: i.e. they only work in amber or precious stones, metal or glass. Most common are wood and glass. A street in London is still named �Paternoster Row� and is where many guilds gathered and worked.

1208 AD ~ FRANCE ~ According to tradition, The Blessed Lady appears to St. Dominic with a Rosary in her hand, in response to his prayers to her for help during the Albigensian heresy which is destroying Christendom in the 12th and 13th centuries. She teaches him how pray the Rosary.

A contemporary of St. Francis, St Dominic is deeply loved as a man of God and for his good works which included encouraging all to pray the Rosary for the conversion of sinners and those who had left the faith. He is credited with the �Militia of Jesus Christ� in which members recite the Psalter of Our Lady, daily.


~ 16th CENTURY ~

~ 1500s ~ At the turn of this century, there are two Rosaries or chaplets popular with the people. One, the 5 decade Ave, is separated by larger beads. It is popular with the women and they take pleasure in adding small trinkets such as figurines, images and gemstones to their Rosaries along with scented dried fruit and flowers.

The second is the �tenner� and as the name suggests, is a short string or �chaplet� of 10 beads or one decade. They end with several Paternosters and an ornamental knot, tassel or special medal and is traditionally used by men. (Monks use them for the next 200 years).

~ 1500s ~ 'The Glory Be' and the second half of the 'Ave' are now part of the formal Rosary. But many other variations will co-exist for the next two centuries depending on local customs.

~ 1531 ~ MEXICO (Tenochtitlan) ~ Our Lady of Guadelupe visits Juan Diego and her exquisite image is set on the fragile cloth of his garment. Her bowed head tells the Aztecs that she is not a god as there is another. Castilian are called for by Mary. Growing on a barren hill in December, Juan Diego picks them and Mary arranges them in his tilma. He obediently carries them to the Bishop as a sign. When he opens his garment, the roses. like an unattached rosary - cascade out and her image forms on his tilma. Within this image of Mary lies the unborn child - Jesus. The life of Christ is in her - just as in the rosary today.

~ 1547 ~ Webster�s Dictionary dates the word Rosary at 1547.

~ 1550s ~ By mid century, a Rosary called the �Three Fifities�, is beginning to take shape. The longer Rosary, using 150 Ave beads, is divided into groups of 10 separated by 15 larger Paternoster beads. It is now attached to form a circle, called �the garden�. A pendant, hanging from one of the large beads has 3 small and 1 large bead and ends in a cross and is considered the �pathway or gateway to the garden�.

The Rosary receives official recognition by the Church through the work of the Rosary Confraternity.

~ 1568 ~ ITALY ~ The Rosary prayers - Ave - are now approved and incorporated into the reformed Roman Breviary by Pope Pius V. This followed their usage by the Mercedarians (1514), the Camaldolese (1515) and the Franciscans in (1525)

~ 1569 ~ ITALY ~ Pope Pius V officially establishes the fifteen mysteries as used today.

~ 1571 ~ ITALY ~ Admiral Doria carries a copy of the image of Our Lady of (Mexican) Guadelupe aboard ship into the sea battle of Lepanto .

Pope Pius V, a Dominican, also devoted to Our Lady, calls for a public recitation of the Rosary throughout Europe against the unbeatable Turks. The Christian ships (from Venice, Genoa and Spain) are surrounded by the Turks (Saracens) but the European fleet over run them, driving them back. Christian Europe is saved.

~ 1572 ~ ITALY ~ Pope Pius V commemorates an annual remembrance of the Battle of Lepanto in honor of �Our Lady of Victory�.

~ 1573 ~ ITALY ~ Pope Gregory XIII sets aside the first Sunday in October calling it the �Feast of the Holy Rosary�.

~ 1587 ~ Mary Queen of Scotts is beheaded while wearing a necklace of pomander beads. (scented Rosaries)

~ 1590s ~ More and more men and women are wearing Rosaries around the neck.


~ 17th CENTURY ~

~ 1600s ~ The Apostles Creed is added to the Rosary prayer. The overall configuration and prayer sequence of the Rosary is becoming more and more universally the same.

~ 1627 ~ FRANCE ~ King Louis the XIII orders public recitation of the Rosary against the rebellious Huguenots. Fifteen thousand Rosaries are distributed to the troops with set hours of prayer. The battle is won and France is saved.

~ 1673 ~ FRANCE ~ St. Louis DeMontfort is born in Brittany. He will be the founder of two religious orders and many of his sermons are now in book form. �True Devotion to Mary, ' The Secret of Mary� and the �Secret of the Rosary� are the most popular. Today these books guide those who choose to Consecrate their lives to Jesus through Mary.

~ 1683 ~ AUSTRIA ~ Again the Saracens tried to invade. Their navy is broken but their army is strong. They try to take over the Balkan area by going into Vienna. King Leopold turns to Our Lady of the Rosary and the city is miraculously saved.

~ NOTE ~

There are many records of Rosaries (made for European use) from the Orient, of amber, crystal, coral and fine, aromatic woods. Rosaries made in Portuguese India are highly prized from a �very early date�.


~ 18th CENTURY ~

~ 1700s ~ AUSTRIA and BAVARIA ~ At end of this century and into the next, a silver filigree rosary is popular. Very elegant, with the Paternosters of filigree beads and the Ave�s in coral, crystal and other precious stones. Small reliquary boxes from pilgrimages are attached and many have unidentified pieces of wood set into the crosses. Seven decades of Ave beads are popular. (These filigree Rosaries are still being made today.)



~ 19th CENTURY ~

~ 1826 ~ The �Living Rosary� is formed. Fifteen members create a circle of prayer, each agreeing to say a single decade each day. With this, each circle completes the whole Rosary.

~ 1834 ~ One Eustace Sirena authors hymns of the Rosary which are to be sung at 1st Vespers, Matins, Lauds and 2nd vespers. They include the mysteries and end with an invitation for one to �weave a crown of flowers� from the prayers of the Rosary for Mary.

~ 1846 ~ FRANCE ~ In La Salette, two children, Melanie (15) and Maximin (11) are asked by the Blessed Lady if they say their prayers well. �Hardly at all�, they replied, at which she firmly and lovingly suggests they say at least an �Our Father� or a �Hail Mary� at night and in the morning.

~ 1858 ~ FRANCE ~ When Bernadette of Lourdes sees the Lady - she reaches for her Rosary beads in fear, but is made motionless. Mary makes the sign of the cross with the Rosary she has in her hand and immediately, Bernadette is able to do the same. �Once I made the sign of the cross,... fear left� She said, and prayed the Rosary in the Lady�s presence. When Bernadette tells Abbe (Father) Peyramale that Mary says, �I am the Immaculate Conception� , this simple peasant girl could hardly pronounce it. (A term is known only to the hierarchy).

~ 1871 ~ FRANCE ~ The apparition of Mary in Pontmain is in fullness when pastor Abbe Guerin begins to recite the Rosary. �The stars on her navy blue gown grew larger and larger until she appears clothed in gold.� The result of her apparition is that the invading army of Prussia withdraws. Some Prussian soldiers on the outskirts of the city see the Virgin too, �... guarding the country and forbidding us to advance�.

~ 1879 ~ IRELAND ~ When Mary appears in Knock with St. Joseph and St. John, her silent mission gives hope and comfort to the people afflicted with the deadly potato famine and for a people who are often denied the right to attend Mass. During her visit, the people recite the Rosary, which they call the �Irish Catechism�.

~ 1883 - 1894 ~ Pope Leo XIII promotes the Rosary as the �most glorious and effective prayer� for those who want to reach Jesus through Mary. He encourages the Family Rosary and writes 12 encyclicals and many apostolic exhortations and letters on the Rosary, more than any Pope before him.

~ 1892 ~ NEW YORK (Ellis Island): becomes a center for immigration. Hundreds of thousands of Immigration Rosaries are entering the new country at an unprecedented rate in the pockets and hands of people from Germany, Italy, Spain, France and other countries. America is receiving a new blessing from these people.

~ 1898 ~ ITALY ~ Leo XIII issues a new charter of sorts, in the Apostolic Constitution on the Rosary Confraternity.


~ 20th CENTURY ~

~ 1900 ~ According to a vision given to Pope Leo XIII late in the 1800s, this century is given to the devil. We see two major world wars along with Korea and Viet Nam. Prayer is removed from school and following this there is a fast pacing breakdown of morality. Killing the unborn becomes commonplace. People are more and more confused by New Age practices and attitudes. The Rosary which is truly the prayer of peace, has fallen into disuse along with general prayer and the effects are overwhelming. Church attendance and family values suffer. Godless people commit horrendous atrocities against the people of Bosnia. This age will become known as the 'Culture of Death'

In this century, Mary visits her children more than ever before in history. Medjugorje becomes a major pilgrim site. The people of the war zone begin to understand why she came to their country.

And in this century there is an upswing in the activity of the Holy Spirit. Gifts become manifest in what are called the last days.

~ 1914 ~ BOSNIA ~ Arch Duke Ferdinand is assassinated in Sarajevo, the capitol of the Austrian province of Bosnia. There is great unrest in Europe.

~ 1917 ~ PORTUGUAL - FATIMA

In Fatima, the aroma of roses is present. Mary has a Rosary in her hand and calls herself �The Lady of the Rosary� and encourages the children to �Say the rosary every day, to obtain peace for the world and an end to the war.�

The children, saddened by the anger their parents have shown over the story of the first apparition, decide not to take their usual short cut in saying only the titles �Our Father� and �Hail Mary - Holy Mary� on each bead of the Rosary any more. They agree to say the whole prayer on each bead in hopes of making things better.

~ 1953 ~ Syracusa Italy

In 1953 in a little village of Syracusa, Italy, The Weeping Madonna.

~ 1992 - ~ 2002. Medjugoria

Our lady is appearing in Medjugoria frequently to this day. As yet the Catholic Church has not made any recommendations or ruling on this phenomena.



Australia

There are a number of sites throughout Australia where Our Lady has appeared and miracles continue through her intercession. Some of these places are:

1998 Berrimah - NSW
1998 Bullsbrook - WA - Our Lady of the Revelations

In her service,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:49 PM
Dear Charles,

If the Virgin Mary wants to appear among us to encourage us to follow Her Son . . . I, for one, won't presume to tell Her to be a "stay-at-home" Mother of God!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 03:51 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

Oh, all right, you've convinced to pray the rosary already . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 04:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Charles,

If the Virgin Mary wants to appear among us to encourage us to follow Her Son . . . I, for one, won't presume to tell Her to be a "stay-at-home" Mother of God!

Alex
And no one said you should! The Church makes one of two pronouncements on apparitions - that is, when it makes any pronouncement at all. They are either declared worthy of belief, or unworthy of belief. No one is ever required to believe any apparition, since those are private revelations. And I understand that in the Latin Church, those pronouncement don't come from Rome. Their canon law requires the local bishop to investigate and rule on the apparition.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 06:17 PM
Dear Charles,

That's fine, but so much of our prayer life connected to the Theotokos is based on apparitions - approved by the Church of course.

The prayer "It is truly meet" was revealed by an apparition, so was the prayer "Most Holy MOther of God help us (save us, protect us)" and this to the Apostles after her Dormition.

The thousands of miraculous icons and their miraculous copies (the Pochaiv icon alone has more than 300 miraculous copies world-wide) - these are all based on miraculous interventions and apparitions.

The Rule of the Mother of God was, according to St Seraphim, also revealed to a monk in the 8th century, and St Seraphim himself experienced a few apparitions where, in one, the Theotokos referred to him as "one of our own kind."

So have many other Eastern Saints, as well as Western.

I think apparitions should be examined by the Church authorities, absolutely.

I know of one apparition that will probably never be made public for all kinds of reasons. I've seen the photograph with my own eyes - something I'll tell you that is really amazing and taken with a regular camera!

However, the place where it occurred has taken to doing outdoor processions with an image that comes closest to the photograph taken. I won't say more since I came across the photo quite by accident and the Church is officially remaining silent on the matter - the picture was on top of a priest's desk in his study where I was told to wait for him. I'm a natural born snoop . . .

The Mother of God has revealed herself thousands of times since her Dormition and apparitions of her are just part of devotion to her.

And who, of the devotees of the Theotokos, have not experienced their own sense of her Presence in their lives, at special times - something that is so profound and momentous that they KNOW she is communicating with them.

Although, yes, the Bollandists would have their say on the matter . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 09:03 PM
Quote
And who, of the devotees of the Theotokos, have not experienced their own sense of her Presence in their lives, at special times - something that is so profound and momentous that they KNOW she is communicating with them.
Indeed Alex I have heard that this is true.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 10:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by alice:
Quote
And who, of the devotees of the Theotokos, have not experienced their own sense of her Presence in their lives, at special times - something that is so profound and momentous that they KNOW she is communicating with them.
Indeed Alex I have heard that this is true.
Alice

I KNOW it is true

Anhelyna
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/10/04 10:31 PM
Dear Anhelyna,

By the grace of God, I also know this to be true.

It is just that I once shared something like this on another board, and every once in a while, a nasty and arrogant Orthodox male would allude to it and mock me.

It is good to know that we are safe to share these type of things here because it is a loving and spiritual environment.

It is good to know that we have a wise and fair Administrator to look after us, and to chide us when necessary.

May our Lady Theotokos intercede for, protect, and comfort you and Alex always!
Alice
Posted By: indigo Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/11/04 05:54 AM
Father Gregory,
I always look forward to reading your prayer suggestions and hints. May you blessed for them.

Perhaps on another thread you might explain some of the scriptural background necessary to pray the psalms effectively.

Peace be with you,
Indigo
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/14/04 07:23 PM
Thank and bless you for this thread. Neither the rosary nor Mary were part of my upbringing an they are still closed to me. I make simple wooden rosaries and know they bring solace to many I give them to, but I do not have the energy or concentration just now with this illness to pray it myself. That is fine; prayer, as you say, is prayer. And always the practice of the Presence of God is the "purpose". And He blesses me, all unworthily, mightily as I pray in my simple but constant way of solitude here. Much food for thought here....
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/14/04 08:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Thank and bless you for this thread. Neither the rosary nor Mary were part of my upbringing an they are still closed to me.
Dear Irish Anchoress,

I welcome you to the forum! smile

Forgive my curiousity (and perhaps, my ignorance), but I am confused as to why you said that the Blessed Virgin Mary is "still closed to you"'? Is it because you are Protestant? Our Blessed Mother of God is open to hear the prayers and to intercede for all of her children, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. Martin Luther, infact, had great devotion to our Lady.

Your website is very beautiful... Are you an ascete, or part of a monastic community?

I just want to understand your post and your website better. Please forgive me if this has been discussed before or if I have missed something.

It is always nice to have people from other countries on our little forum community. I look forward to your holy contributions! smile

May God bless you,
Alice
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/15/04 07:25 AM
Bless and thank you Alice, and it is fine to ask always. I was raised Church of England, when that was a very different Church from now; a strong and simple faith. I am now not a member of any denominational Church. And I am a Consecrated Anchoress/Nun in a Religious Order; Living Stream, Little Sisters, Sisters of Faith. My Vows and my vocation are in the safe-keeping of our Arch-Abbess. The Order is Old Catholic, founded in England in 1860; we are in Communion with the Byzantine Catholics in Canada - which is how I am here with you; and thus with Rome.
I go to RC Mass, when I am well enough which is not often; all my prayer and worship and praise are up here alone on God's Holy Mountain. It is a very "old" calling He has entrusted to me.
But we are autocephalous. And we embrace Sisters all over the world and from all Catholic denominations. We took in the small group of Byzantine Catholic Nuns in Canada, for example. we are Traditional Catholic Nuns; as the face of religious life changes beyond all recognition, Sisters come to us from other Orders. We wear the full Monastic Habit all the time as a witness and availability to all who see us. We are all Solitaries or small groups; either in very active ministries eg feeding homeless ones and aboriginal children, or hermits/Anchoresses. It is the only place I have found where my very unuusal Vocation is understood and cherished. And where the fact that I am semi-bedbound matters not.We know we are nothing without prayer, and my life here, totally apart from the world, is fully and wholly prayer now. I see no-one here who God does not bring to me. I trust all I have and all I am to Him. Mary; I wait on Jesus for this, simply as I do for all else now. I understand and accept all you say. These things cannot be forced ever. In His time, in His way always. How He brings us to where He wants us is the most humbling and fascinating thing! Abandonment to His will and His ways is all to me now.
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/15/04 05:34 PM
PS. Forgive me; I omitted to thank you for your kindness about my website. And I do not do the technical part; that is Justin, a gifted and generous young Christian in New York. Please pray for him as he has lost his job in a takeover. Thank you.
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 01:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
The Order is Old Catholic, founded in England in 1860; we are in Communion with the Byzantine Catholics in Canada - which is how I am here with you; and thus with Rome.
Dear Sister, I am a bit confused. I was unaware of any Byzantine Catholic Churches being in communion with any Old Catholic or other communities who are not in communion with Rome; although I am aware of Byzantine Catholics informally sharing the Eucharist with certain Orthodox believers. Could you please elaborate?
I am also aware that there are a few vagante groups who style themselves "Byzantine Catholic" but who are not in communion with Rome, or for that matter, hardly anyone else...
-Daniel, puzzled
Posted By: MizByz74 Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 04:17 AM
Dearest Fr. Gregory,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Thank you so much for posting this... I am an offical RC who has been UNoffically Byzantine Rite Ruthenian for two years, and I've been looking for an "Eastern" version of the holy rosary.

Please bless this poor little sinner who struggles with prayer in general...
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 05:30 AM
Daniel; it is as I have said, simply. That is all. Sorry you are confused, but nothing I can do about that save say that. All blessings this day.
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:45 AM
Daniel; go to this site
http://patermel.nstemp.net/photo5.html

I have no idea what the webmaster did to that photo of Arch Abbess Mother Matthew Peter!
So go then to LINKS and you will find our main web site and the proper photo.
If you want to sort things out with our Arch Abbess then......
Denomination matters not one iota with us; we are at peace with everyone who lets us be; Jesus and the street folk come first with us always. ALWAYS, so I never get into these debates; we shine His love and anything else matters not. There is too much else to do. Like feeding 400 homeless folk in His Name every day in all weathers and with no funding from anyone or anywhere but what we earn and save
See
http://www.abbotsfordtimes.com/issues04/031104/news/031104nn3.html
Numbers have risen greatly since then and we alos, a small group and all older Nuns, also minister to the native aboriginals; so many children with nothing. Jesus loves these little ones. So do we....

ALL rich blessings this day
Posted By: Gaudior Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 11:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Daniel; it is as I have said, simply. That is all. Sorry you are confused, but nothing I can do about that save say that. All blessings this day.
Oh, Irish Anchoress, I do not think it is Daniel that is confused. :rolleyes:

Gaudior, who has also noted a few things...
Posted By: Gaudior Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 12:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Daniel; go to this site
http://patermel.nstemp.net/photo5.html

I have no idea what the webmaster did to that photo of Arch Abbess Mother Matthew Peter!
So go then to LINKS and you will find our main web site and the proper photo.
If you want to sort things out with our Arch Abbess then......
Denomination matters not one iota with us; we are at peace with everyone who lets us be; Jesus and the street folk come first with us always. ALWAYS, so I never get into these debates; we shine His love and anything else matters not. There is too much else to do. Like feeding 400 homeless folk in His Name every day in all weathers and with no funding from anyone or anywhere but what we earn and save
See
http://www.abbotsfordtimes.com/issues04/031104/news/031104nn3.html
Numbers have risen greatly since then and we alos, a small group and all older Nuns, also minister to the native aboriginals; so many children with nothing. Jesus loves these little ones. So do we....

ALL rich blessings this day
Yes, yes, lovely, Irish Anchoress, but, you see, you are not Catholic, Eastern or Roman. You belong to a group that I am sure does a lot of good in the world, but isn't Catholic. I think it is very misleading to Catholics who believe they are speaking to a Catholic nun, and may have asked your guidance spiritually. Perhaps you should change your profile to "non-denominatonal, non-Catholic" in order to avoid giving the false appearance of Catholic monasticsm.

Gaudior, who has no problem with any denomination, provided it doesn't attempt to mislead...
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 12:50 PM
Dear Brothers & Sisters, +May He Who is Risen and Who goes before us bless each of you!

We should always admit that there ARE among Continuing Anglicans, Old Catholics, and even occasional Lutherans and some other groups faithful orthodox Christians who are constantly growing in their understanding of the Church...and in whom we should find a measure of solidarity and common faith.

Bishop Kallistos (Ware) says: As Augustine wisely remarked: �How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!� (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a �visible� and an �invisible Church,� yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. So let us leave the actual membership of who belongs to the Church to Him? Let us not judge. Let us not hurt the feelings of those who are trying sincerely to belong and grow in their understanding of the Church. We have only to look at the Evangelical Orthodox of the Antiochian Patriarchate. These people where Orthodox before they were chrismated...had anyone reposed BEFORE chrismation by the patriarchate would they not have been considered truly Orthodox? The Holy Spirit moves and works where He will and our feeble attempts to incapsulate Him often causes much damage to souls and much harm for the salvation of others.

I have seen so much sin and pure evil withIN the Church and so much good and even holiness OUTside her---that I've learned after 40 years of Church service not to ever judge who's who...or make may statements about who belongs and who doesn't. I think it's dangerous and I think to do so is even sinful.

I remember meeting (many years ago) an Orthodox nun in one of the VERY uncanonical Orthodox jurisdictions in Astoria, she had just arrived from Greece and was singing on the cliros...and I thought, but she doesn't belong to the Church here. Then I thought to myself, better to say nothing...because in the end this very obviously holy aged nun IS the Church---in the flesh...she is Christ...his hands, his feet, his mouth...moving and living and working in our midst.

Let us welcome EVERYONE here and show that this place (The Byzantine Forum) is different from any other place...where EVERYONE is welcomed as Christ. The moment we start making 'categories' and excluding...that moment is filled with danger for someone's salvation. Let us instead welcome EVERYONE with love and compassion---and thereby show them that we are filled with His grace and His love!

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Gaudior Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 02:50 PM
Dear Fr. Gregory,

I think you misunderstood...you would not represent yourself as a Protestant, and offer spiritual advice to a Protestant who thought that you were Protestant without making certain that they knew you were Orthodox.

I think Daniel and myself were merely pointing out that by misrepresenting herself as Catholic, she is wrong. This is not a comment on her community, her personal spirituality, or anything else. The nun you spoke of in your example (Astoria) was clearly known to people to be not canonical Orthodox, and as a result, they could view any spiritual advice given to them with more discernment.

It is the misrepresentation that was the problem. Of course all are welcome here, as you know we have all denominations here...and do not make Forum participation in any way dependent on canonicity.

Gaudior, who merely points out the difference...
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 02:52 PM
Irish Anchoress,

The Church you reference is the "Byzantine Catholic Church Inc." which now styles it self the "Byzantine Catholic Church(Autocephalous)
Eastern and Western Rite Orthodox Church" and states it the product of the merger of the Byzantine Catholic Church Inc. and the Hungarian Orthodox Church, whose primate was a member here some time ago.

While I welcome your participation here it must be in an atmosphere of honesty. The Church you are in communion with has no connection or communion with the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh, nor any Catholic Church in Communion with Rome and it would be wrong to present or pretend otherwise.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Posted By: Amadeus Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 02:56 PM
Dear Fr. Gregory:

I think Daniel's point (and Charles Bransom's and Gaudior's and Jennifer's) is a just a plea for plain honesty.

Irish Anchoress claims the religious order to which she belongs IS in communion with a Byzantine Catholic group in Canada and, quote, ". . . thus with Rome."

That group in Canada is NOT Byzantine Catholic and neither is it (Byzantine) Orthodox by any measure. It calls itself the "Byzantine Orthodox Catholic (Autocephalous) Church." It's not even one of the Orthodox Churches of Irregular Status.

So far, we have been as welcoming as it should be but it should dawn on Irish Anchoress to be more forthcoming by not foisting on us a clear misrepresentation of her affiliation. She, herself, keeps on adding to her posts: ". . . and I am not RC!" but with evident disdain.

I would like also to request Irish Anchoress to cease casting aspersions on the Roman Catholic Church, which are conveniently interspersed in most of her otherwise polite commentaries. We can read between the lines even if such statements are veiled, no pun intended, with pious invocations.

I have no qualms in her attending RC Mass, as she says, but I hope the Anchoress has the civility not to receive Holy Communion for the time being.

And may I ask, Father, is not an Anchoress akin to a hermit or to a cloistered Nun in the Catholic/Orthodox traditions? How and why is our dear Irish Anchoress allowed the "convenience" of Internet public "chats?"

Asking for your blessings.

Amado
Posted By: Father Deacon Ed Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:10 PM
Dear Irish Anchoress,

I'm going to make this official. You are welcome to post here, to share your journey of faith and to join in our journey. However, I must ask you to be clear that you are not in communion with Rome. The Old Catholics are not in communion with Rome and, as Fr. Deacon Lance has pointed out, neither is the Byzantine group to which you refer.

Please make sure that you do not claim a communion that does not exist, and that you do not portray yourself as a Catholic in communion with Rome.

Fr. Deacon Edward, moderator
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:21 PM
Dear Amado,

I know nothing of the Byzantine Catholic Church that is being referred to here. In Canada, we don't have non-ethnic Eastern Churches in any event. We're too "cultured" for that . . . wink

But the point here is not that, which is an aside.

The point is whether Irish Anchoress may refer to herself as "(Old) Catholic."

And she most certainly can.

Orthodox Christians NOT in communion with Rome call themselves "Orthodox Catholic."

You can ask Bob Orthoman about that (if you have the courage wink ).

Oriental Christians call themselves "Catholic" and so do many Protestants (the earliest name for Protestants was "Reformed Catholicks.")

Where has Irish Anchoress EVER said she was anything other than an Old Catholic?

Was there any doubt?

The thing about the Byzantine Catholics - that is a confusing name in and of itself and doubtless Irish Anchoress, who does not concern herself with jurisdictional issues (which seems to be such a pressing matter for many here), could have thought this to be an EC group in communion with Rome.

That is an innocent mistake in and of itself.

There are a variety of Old Catholic groups whom I prefer to Protestants and liberal Catholics (yes, in communion with Rome).

They are often traditionally-minded, even to a fault (I'm sure God will forgive them for such a "fault!").

There is an Old Catholic chapel near my veterinarian that rescues pet animals from the streets and adopts them out. They also have a Chapel of St Francis where one may go to pray the rosary (they have rosaries by the door - when was the last time you saw an RC Church do THAT?

I've know a number of Old Catholics, some of whom later went on to become RC's and EO's and also Eastern Catholics.

Some of them returned to their Old Catholic Church.

There is the Polish National Catholic Church in my community and they attend RC Mass and also EC Liturgies - they go to Communion etc. Very nice people, them!

There is also a former PNCC parish somewhere here that came into communion with Rome and the Pope allowed their married priests to continue etc.

I know the community of Irish Anchoress and it is known and respected by other Christians, RC, EO, what have you.

If we want to find fault with this or that innocent expression of hers - then, really, we have enough of our own old posters who go beyond the pale in heaping insults on others.

We've bent over backwards to be nice to some here who have not been nice and quite deliberately.

I DON'T understand the attitudes of some toward Irish Anchoress.

And, yes, Anchorites are to live in solitary.

But who can really expect them to be cut off from the world?

They, like we, are called to live in the world and to share its joys and sufferings while praying unceasingly for it.

Anyway, I see you are yawning and so I stop my sermon now . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:29 PM
Father Deacon Edward,

Point well taken!

But even if Irish Anchoress is mistaken about the Byzantine Catholic church she refers to - there are MANY who are not in communion with Rome who DO acknowledge the Pope of Rome as "First among Equals" or some other such primacy.

Is that not a "form" of some sort of communion? Certainly, not enough to allow for intercommunion during the Liturgy.

Did not one poster here recently say that our cherished BC understanding of "communion with Rome" is "delusional" and not in keeping with what Rome itself has defined as what union with it really is?

Do we not have posters here that will go out of their way (with impunity) to attack others on the issue of "communion with Rome" as being simply wishful thinking from the Orthodox point of view?

Why are we singling out Irish Anchoress?

There were some here who got on their high horse of 'present the facts please' toward Irish Anchoress.

The same could be asked of you, Sir, with all due respect.

If I'm sounding out of sorts, it is because I feel a kindred spirit with Irish Anchoress. People can be misunderstood, that is one thing.

To ask them to retract is legitimate. But, please, let's have the same sort of fairness toward those, especially the recent people here, who have deliberately and cruelly gone on the attack.

If Irish Anchoress feels a relationship to the Pope of Rome - more power to her!

My local Anglican canon is so High Church that he always commemorates the POpe of Rome during his Prayer-book service.

That is confusion on the side of the Angels, I say.

Have a nice day.

Alex
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:31 PM
As for being linked to the internet, do we not have a few hieromonks here who are on this forum too?

Why single out Irish Anchoress? confused

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Amadeus Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:36 PM
Dear HRH Alexander I:

I was not yawning! I was eek !

No one ever prevented the Irish Anchoress on her use of "Catholic!" This word has been appropriated by so many that I have lost count.

It is a simple question of honesty. Don't say you are in communion with Rome when clearly you are not!

Yes, she can call herself "Old Catholic!"

Amado

BTW, you know fully well that the RCC has intercommunion guidelines with the PNCC, along with the Assyrians and the Orthodox (Oriental and Eastern) Churches. So, belaboring on the PNCC case is moot, Sir! :p
Posted By: Tony Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
The Church you reference is the "Byzantine Catholic Church Inc." which now styles it self the "Byzantine Catholic Church(Autocephalous)
Eastern and Western Rite Orthodox Church" and states it the product of the merger of the Byzantine Catholic Church Inc. and the Hungarian Orthodox Church, whose primate was a member here some time ago.
Dear Deacon Lance,

To avoid confusion, please identify the group above in italics. It is obviously not any of the canonical Orthodox Churches in Hungary.

Tony
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 03:58 PM
Amigo Amado,

The ONLY time IA even hinted at that was when she referred to the Byzantine Catholic what-nots.

I too confess to being confused by that moniker, as I've been by the monikers of other Old Catholics I've come across.

At NO point did IA (and there is an Irish St IA, you know!) affirm that SHE was in communion with Rome, and only alluded to the possibility as a result of her monastery being in communion with the above group.

A simple error, and not a culpable one as I'm sure you would agree.

Agreement or not, MY pastor has told us to stay away from the Churches you've listed as having intercommunion agreements . . .

Not everyone is as ecumenical as you, Big Guy.

And I've also met people who are confused by "Orthodox Catholic" and think they are in communion with Rome too.

Again, I suggest you speak to Bob Orthoman on that score, if you have the inclination . . .

I think you and Fr. Deacon Edward and those who agree with you are in "invincible error."

There, is that Roman enough for you? wink

Alex
Posted By: Father Deacon Ed Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 04:09 PM
Dear Alex,

As the moderator of this forum, I have a responsiblity to see that communication is as fair and equitable as I can make it. But as a cleric I have a duty to ensure that people are not misled. I got a fairly long PM from a poster who was concerned that IA might mislead people. It was for that reason that I posted what I did.

As for others who post here in a strident tone, I also try to counsel them -- although usually privately. Because this one had the possiblity of confusion (as evidenced in several posts), I chose to respond on the board (the fact that IA has PMs blocked contributed to that decision).

Fr. Deacon Edward
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 04:17 PM
Dear Father Deacon Edward,

Since I know for sure that YOU are a legitimate Catholic, I accept your words with great happiness and submission!

Alex (who has also been stung by private e-mails to moderators)
Posted By: byzanTN Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 04:18 PM
The Old Catholic church in my area calls itself Antiochian Rite Catholic. Some of these names do cause a good deal of confusion. I think it is OK to ask for verification on positions presented, as long as it's done civilly. I do that when something possibly can be verified. If it's some apparition, private revelation, or unverifiable folklore - sometimes maybe wishful thinking - it's all up in the air as to whether or not anyone could ever accept those as valid or verifiable in the first place. But this is not a courtroom and the standard of proof is much, much lower here. A good point to keep in mind, perhaps? smile
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 04:35 PM
Tony,

Certainly, I forgot to through quotes around both churches later in that post. Is their a canonical Orthodox diocese in Hungary or just some parishes?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Posted By: Tony Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 04:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
Tony,

Certainly, I forgot to through quotes around both churches later in that post. Is their a canonical Orthodox diocese in Hungary or just some parishes?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Dear Deacon Lance,

There are in fact several canonical jurisdictions in Hungary.

The one that uses Hungarian liturgically the most is under the MP and HILARION (Alfeyev) is the bishop. IIRC it is a diocese not merely parishes. The MP represents the largest jurisdiction present AFAIK.

The Serbian and Romanian Churches are represented and I think there are Bulgarian parishes. At one time the Serbian Patriach(ate) fled the Ottomans and established itself with many Serbs in Szentendre near Budapest.

There was an historic presence of Greek merchants as well and there is an old Greek Orthodox Church in Miskolc (again, IIRC, it's been a few years since I was there last). There have been some squabbles between the MP and the EP over jurisdiction in Hungary recently.

I asked you to clarify this so as to not lend any notion that a canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction has entered unilaterally into Communion with some vagante, or similar, group. (As no sui juris Catholic Church would either.) The situation of the ROCOR and perhaps some other old calendar groups are different, of course.

Tony
Posted By: Amadeus Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 05:15 PM
Another "slip" then showing, which immediately kept my appreciation of the Irish Anchoress' vocation unhinged, was her "avocation" to making beautiful rosaries as advertised in her website but said, in response to Alice, that she has not come to praying the Holy Rosary itself!

It was a negative jolt, small as it may be, to this rosary-devotee RC while reading the testimonies of some Orthodox on their own "personal" devotion, especially that of Fr. Gregory!

But it is not earth-shaking! wink

Amado
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 05:15 PM
Dear Charles,

Bravo!

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 05:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Amadeus:
Another "slip" then showing, which immediately kept my appreciation of the Irish Anchoress' vocation unhinged, was her "avocation" to making beautiful rosaries as advertised in her website but said, in response to Alice, that she has not come to praying the Holy Rosary itself!

It was a negative jolt, small as it may be, to this rosary-devotee RC while reading the testimonies of some Orthodox on their own "personal" devotion, especially that of Fr. Gregory!

But it is not earth-shaking! wink
Amado
Amado ,

the other one from that same post - which attracted my attention was
Quote
Neither the rosary nor Mary were part of my upbringing an they are still closed to me.
.

The reference to our Beloved Mother really saddened me and it came back to me later frown

How can anyone not have a devotion to Our Blessed Lady ?

In her very next Post on this thread IA said
Quote
I was raised Church of England, when that was a very different Church from now; a strong and simple faith
From my own knowledge I cannot think of a single Church of England Church which does not have either a Lady Chapel or Altar for Our Lady - and there is of course that wonderful Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.

I'm sorry - but these posts spoke volumes to me frown frown

Anhelyna
Posted By: no one Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Bless and thank you Alice, and it is fine to ask always. I was raised Church of England, when that was a very different Church from now; a strong and simple faith. I am now not a member of any denominational Church. And I am a Consecrated Anchoress/Nun in a Religious Order; Living Stream, Little Sisters, Sisters of Faith. My Vows and my vocation are in the safe-keeping of our Arch-Abbess. The Order is Old Catholic, founded in England in 1860; we are in Communion with the Byzantine Catholics in Canada - which is how I am here with you; and thus with Rome.
I find this very interesting Sister, as there were no Old Catholic Churches in England prior to the consecration of Archbishop Arnold Harris Mathew in 1980? I spent 9 years as an Old Catholic priest and had a huge library of Old Catholic books and documents, as well as correspondence with clergy in various Old Catholic/Independent Catholic and Orthodox jurisdictions, most of whom traced their orders back to Archbishop Mathew (including myself) and in none of that was there recorded being any parish or religous communities in England styling themselves "Old Catholic" until after the time of his consecration. Don
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:14 PM
Dear Angela,

My uncle (of blessed memory), aunt, and cousins are members of the Episcopal Church here and they never had a devotion of any sort to our Lady...

I attended church with them many times as a child, (before modernist changes), and never remember any mention of our Lady....

I don't know if any of them could seek our blessed Lady's intercessions in the same way the Orthodox and Catholics do.

I don't know if it is different in the Anglican Church of the United Kingdom?

Forgive my interjection if it is.

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:16 PM
Dear Brothers & Sisters, +CHRIST IN OUR VERY MIDST! Your points are well taken and I agree that we must all try and be as honest and exact as possible when speaking about 'where we are coming from.' But consider that Sister may not even be aware of the differences and may not know the difference between the 'Byzantine Catholic church' that she speaks of and knows...and The Byzantine Catholic Churches in communion with Rome? Just a possibility...and I confess that I don't know the answer, but I just always try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Not everyone understands all the complexities of The Theology of Church as many of you who are well read and well versed in ecclesiastical subjects. To many (even me at times) this whole area in theology often remains a maze to many. It IS, I would think possible...that she has been told that the Canadian group of which she speaks is in 'communion with Rome' and therefore, the church she belongs to has some formal relationship with the Roman Catholic Church. Possible?

Never fear dear brothers and sisters, the Lord is more than capable of protecting and taking care of His Church...and He will bring Sister and all of us to deeper growth in Christ with time...as He brings any young child to a deeper knowledge of Himself in the Holy Eucharist.

My comments were made simply to urge kindness and gentleness in all communication with those who may not even understand the deeper issues here.

With admiration for each and everyone of you...and asking for your holy prayers,

I remain your poor brother,
+Father Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:25 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

You are too wonderful for words, did you know that? smile

I remember picking up an old prayer-book in the library here that identified itself as "Greek-Catholic."

No mention of Rome at all . . . Guess what? That was an Orthodox prayerbook!

Another Old Catholic or whatever acquaintance asked me to come up with a name for his group.

I suggested, "Evangelical Orthodox Catholic."

And, guess what . . .

That's right! smile

Kissin' your right hand, I agin implore your blessin' (that's how the American Easter Orthodox Southwest Congregation of the Oriental Order of St Benedict say it . . . wink )

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:28 PM
Bless, Father Don!

How WONDERFUL to see you back on this forum!

I knew it was just a matter of time . . .

Was there ever a movement to canonize Arnold Matthews by the Old Catholics? Was he esteemed in that way at all?

The Synod of Milan includes Bishop Matthews' confession of Orthodox faith at the back of their prayer book.

They style it, "Orthodox Old Catholic."

But, hey, if there can be "Orthodox Greek Catholics," what the . . . wink

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:38 PM
I don't know about all the jurisdictional/canonical/non-canonical, etc. nit-picking, as it is out of my element, but I did understand that Irish Anchoress was non-denominational from the get go.

I thought that her spirit and soul were refreshing and that her spirituality was on target.

Who cares if she is canonical or not? There are so many people who are in the 'right' canonical churches (or even sometimes-- the 'right' non-canonical churches), people who are in the 'correct' jurisdictions or people who are in the 'right' communions with the 'right' Patriarchs, and who do the 'correct' rubrics and traditions, but who do not have spirits and love that come even close to hers.

Perhaps I might have cared if her non-canonical/questionable jurisdictional status was here to create disharmony or was here to tell others how they are heretics or that there churches have 'strayed'. I might have cared if she was here to advocate liberal/modernist agendas.

The fact that she did not come here with the 'my faith is more correct than yours' type of rhetoric which has become all too commonplace on the internet, and which has become personally tiring to my soul, and which in my humble opinion, does nothing to build up conservative Christianity, to me was simply, refreshing.

Let's remember that we are discussing a very real human being, who, although we cannot see, has feelings like the rest of us...and yes, has sins and faults, just like the rest of us.

I am really dismayed at how she was treated here. I too was treated badly when I first came on here, after being open enough to say that I was Greek Orthodox. That meant different things to different people here, and assumptions and generalizations clouded the way people talked to me... and it was very rude at first! I will NEVER forget that it was Alex who stepped in with his kind manner to defend me and to welcome me
....
So, I do not want to do what others have done to me. I know how it feels. I really thought that we were all above that. If we don't like a poster for whatever reason, how about just not talking to them?

Forgive me if I have offended anyone, (especially those here that I love and respect) or am being too preachy. I am a sinner with many faults of my own.

Alice, who will retreat from writing here for the rest of the day.
Posted By: no one Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:40 PM
Thanks for your welcome Alex! Now that the elections are over I'll come back for a bit. I couldn't resist this discussion about Old Catholics. You know my interest in them. I did make one mistake in my post about that I was too late to correct. Archbishop Mathew was consecrated in 1908, not 1980. And there are a couple of jurisdictions in the USA that have canonized him and call him St. Arnold Harris Mathew, but I can't remember which ones and when they celebrate his feast. Don
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:52 PM
Dear Don,

Isn't that wonderful!

I really don't care WHO canonizes, as long as they do! smile

You belong here (whether I really do is a point of some debate, however . . . wink ).

I don't know much about the Old Catholics, except that they have many names.

And the ones I know about are some of the very best Christians I've ever been blessed to come across.

Present company included!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:54 PM
Dear Alice,

And please know that I didn't defend you JUST because your name sounds like mine . . . wink

Kalo sarisote sto-plio!

Alex
Posted By: no one Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:57 PM
Personally, I believe he was truly a holy man, but unfortunately used by those who weren't so holy. And many in the Old Catholic movement have been like him...some were truly wishing to bring the Good New of Christ to men and women that the mainstream Churches couldn't or wouldn't reach. But I admit there were also many who were in it for the prestige of being called Father or Excellency and wearing pretty clothes. I was lucky to find a group that truly sought to serve God's people.
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 06:59 PM
Alex, I do have to work on teaching you a few more Greek phrases than just 'Welcome on board the ship'!!!! wink

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 07:02 PM
Bless, Father Don,

Actually, I like their clothes . . . smile

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 07:05 PM
Dear Alice,

It's because when we have you here, it's smooth sailing . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 09:12 PM
Dear Don

A very warm welcome back - it is good to 'see' you again

Anhelyna
Posted By: Jennifer Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/18/04 11:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by alice:

I am really dismayed at how she was treated here. I too was treated badly when I first came on here, after being open enough to say that I was Greek Orthodox. That meant different things to different people here, and assumptions and generalizations clouded the way people talked to me... and it was very rude at first! I will NEVER forget that it was Alex who stepped in with his kind manner to defend me and to welcome me
[/QB]
I'm delurking because I want to address the subtle digs being made at me.

She was treated just fine. She overreacted to perfectly reasonable questions.

For example, this is from the "bumper sticker" tread:

Hal's post:
"OK, people - this was a light-hearted thread and it appeared as if people were having some fun with it. Was it really necessary to be a kill-joy? UGH!

Yours,

hal"

IA's response:
"Moe; I gave the Irish Seal Sanctuary link above in my mail; here it is again...
irishsealsanctuary.ie
And if you ask Google for Seal Slaughter Ireland; there are many sites.
Hal; I am truly sorry you were offended, but many threads go off in new directions as things crop up that do that. Father Gregory's post did just that of course. Yes what has happened here is shocking and appalling; makes many go to the Guest Book on the Irish Seal Sanctuary Site see link above. And add their comments to the guest book as support for all of us who are trying to get these atrocities stopped in His Dear and Holy Name Who made all and loves all; Jesus . I had hoped that that would happen here rather than what did. This world and these creatures matter to so many. There is no need at all for comment especially not of that ilk,; simply avoid what you do not like as we all have to do, in simple forbearance. Bless you this day. I can say this now I am unsubbing from the forum. Your post was the last straw, simply. As Captain Oates said, " I am going outside and I will be gone a while..." "
The "last straw"...huh?
She was not attacked by anyone here (including me). She took any questioning as an attack on her person. Like I wrote, she completely overreacted.

Let's not even get into the spiritual condescending manner of her posts.

When I went through my little 'thing' here last week I questioned myself. I thought that your judgments of me had merit. But this IA thing illustrates that there's no 'window into someone's soul.'
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 12:45 AM
Dear Jennifer,

I thought that she wrote beautifully and very spiritually to you.

Ofcourse, that is my opinion.

I have noticed on forums like these that it is not often what a person says, but WHO is saying it.

By the way, I honestly wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that Irish Anchoress was treated badly. So, who is feeling attacked?
confused

God bless,
Alice
Posted By: iconophile Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 12:54 AM
I simply asked her to clarify a confusing statement; I did not mean to stir things up so. I was a bit put off by her response when Jennifer asked for another clarification earlier; she accused J of "attacking" her, which was a bit much.
I certainly don't object to Old Catholics posting here, or Protestants or whoever, but when she claimed to be in communion with Canadian Byzantines, and thus with Rome I wanted an elaboration. I guess I got it, big time...
Posted By: Jennifer Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 01:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by alice:
Dear Jennifer,

I thought that she wrote beautifully and very spiritually to you.

Ofcourse, that is my opinion.

I have noticed on forums like these that it is not often what a person says, but WHO is saying it.

By the way, I honestly wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that Irish Anchoress was treated badly. So, who is feeling attacked?
confused

God bless,
Alice
"Beautifully" and "spiritually?"

Well, I respectfully disagree. When was she "beautiful" and "spiritual?" When she was freaking out about me attacking her when I asked her a question? Or when she created a thread implying that I was "spoiling" her time on the forum? Or when she wrote that civil unions were satanic?

BTW, I am hardly the only one who felt that she was spiritually condescending. I have received numerous PMs from people telling me that they thought that she was being holier than thou.

I think your observation about "who" the person is is more important than what they say is really what is going on her. She jumped on my case (for no good reason, btw) and you immediately assumed that meant she was in the right.
She was treated fine here and simply overreacted to questions. It's just as simple as that.
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 01:32 AM
Dear Jennifer,

(By the way, I have a name too!)

I didn't follow EVERY thread and EVERY post but I did see one post where I.A. was very spiritually kind to you.

If that is what you consider condescending, then you wouldn't like my spiritual Father. He is an elder from Mt. Athos and most people think that when he speaks like that--that they are hearing a saint.

I was brought up to be respectful to those in religious vocations. Some have commanded that respect and others have let me down greatly in the respect department, but I will never address them rudely nor would I allow my grown children to...

When rudeness prevails, society falls apart.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen (of blessed memory)once said:

"To be polite is to be charitable,
to be charitable is to be loving,
to be loving is to be like God...." smile

Peace,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice
Posted By: Administrator Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 01:54 AM
After reading some of the posts on the Forum in recent days a friend of mine made a very wise observation. He said: �The trouble with opening your mouth is that you reveal something about who you are.�

What have our recent posts revealed to us about who we are?

We are nasty. We are judgmental. We are condescending. We are mean. We are petty. We are uncharitable.

As followers of Jesus Christ we should be slow to judge, respectful of one another, mature and gracious.

Now that we have fallen down in our sinfulness, how about we extend a hand to help one another up again?

Enough said. This thread is about the Rosary. Please limit your comments in this thread to that topic.
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 06:00 AM
I am daring to mail again; alerted to this. And it is all far worse than I "saw".
Whether you agree or understand matters not really; the only person who has truth and Jesus here is Alice. Bless you! Whether you agree, our Order is in Communion with the Byzantine Catholics who ARE in communion with Rome. If you feel the need, mail Arch-Abbess Mother Matthew Peter.
And no man can order anyone not to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus; He does not belong to any one denomination or person. He is Himself, THANK JESUS. I hae received Holy Communion in every Church since I came to Ireland, and always with the bidding of the Prists' they say" The denomination matters not a whit; IT IS YOUR LIFESTYLE"; and that is their choice freely and fully. And within the legislation. See if your are so inclined the encyical last year. I have the Rseerved Sacrament here for daily communion as I am too ill to go out.That is my Life and my Joy, my strength and my Love. I will also break bread with anyone in His Name. And pray with anyone ditto. And respecte all preists and pastors etc, as those called by Jesus to shepherd His Flock. The true Church is in the heart and mind and life of everyone who believes in Jesus and who strives to live their lives by His Holy Words; I know a Baptist child in Uganda who is full of the Holy Spirit and who radiates Jesus and is winning souls to Him; demons are being cast out and people are being healed. She has never heard of RC or any of this stuff here.
She is THE CHURCH. More fully thn \i will ever be.
My own awareness ios that the divisions are not "heresy" or schism; they always follow periods of gross abuse int he existing Church and are the Movement of the Holy Spirit to renew true faith. \I welcome that. IF the existing denoms were pure that would never be necessray.
and who are we to say who God gives ordination to? THAT IS HIS CHOICE; how dare any of us say else. \re Mary; I am waiting on my Lord as I said; I trust Him; He will bring me to His Mother when it is time. The rosary means a great deal to me; but I , as I said already, do not have the energy tp pray it just now; i love making thema nd thatis a solace to me.Itis a giving I cannot hsre in. Always I have stautes and opictures of Mary; when she is ready....
As bernadette said, "the stream is not for me"; I bedn to is will in that.
A great deal fo what ios here is BECAUSE again as Alice asys, folk try itn INFLICT rules from the OUTSIDE. It does not work and especially whent here is severe illness as with me. It has to come from within.
Anchoreses have windows!!! Many come to me from all denoms seeking prayer. I give freely to all.
Much of what is here is nit-picking.
We ARE "real Catholic Nuns"; oh we get this kind of thing all the time; we simply refer folk to the web site then quit. Shake the dust off our feet in great sadness. We are Catholic and in Communion with Rome.
Those are facts. In Jesus
As Mary has said, and others, denomination matters not a whit to God; we are not going to be asked what our "label" is, but what love we have for Jesus and all His people. There are many in the Church who are not int he Church and vice versa as Alice said
If youa re of that school that says that Orthoxy is the ony church; God says else.
"Holier than thou"? oh WOW! see my websitre. I LIVE all i say i do. ALL of it. in love. Again, that is somthing I get all the time. Bess your
I came here to this forum hoping to find the love of Jesus and abopve all to give; I have asked that my details be remioved fromt he database. That sio what Jesus asked me in person to do last night. I am in Holy Obedience about that. PLEASE DO THIS NOW. I love my Lord and am His Cloistered Bride. That si all that matters to me. The rest is window dressing
My time on this earth is drwing near its end, and that gives ofetn a wisdom and an chaing as we draw nearer "home".
I say this to you; you are becoming as sounding cymbals only. Please, turn to Jesus Who is love. Stop all this;love alone. What I have rerd here is shameful. JESUS IS LOVE. ALONE AND ALWAYS; that is all and all and all. the rest is just window dressing and matters nto an iota. Jesus has tole mt hat in person and that si what I live to my dying breath; nt too far hence thankfully I go to Him with opne arms, and embrace all with Him in that love; rich blessings shower you all; angels watch over you
See what is written in Isaiah and again said by Jesus....."Lest they be converetd"; too ill to find the extcrt words now. Hard hearts over there; that need melting; heats of stone that need to bceome hearst o flesh; and oh, that is a painfl, aching process; God lovee you all!
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 07:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Anchoress:
Whether you agree, our Order is in Communion with the Byzantine Catholics who ARE in communion with Rome.
Sister,

I am going to go on the assumption that what you state above is what you either have been led to believe by others or what you believe to be the truth, having not investigated. Let me direct you to a few sites that should help to point out that the "Byzantine Catholics" with whom your order is in communion are not themselves in communion with Rome - and, thus, neither is your Order.

Go to the following link, L.S.L.S. Sisters of Faith [ourchurch.com] , which is to one of 3 or 4 on-line sites belonging to your Order (most of which essentially mirror one another).

Then, scroll down, you will see a link on the menu at left that says Byzantine Orthodox Catholic {Autocephalus} Juristiction ([i]sic[/i]) [ourchurch.com] . If you click on it, you will be redirected to a page featuring a picture of "His Holiness".

The gentleman pictured is Mar Markus I (Miller), the "Patriarch" of a Church that is headquartered in the US (not Canada; only your Order is situated in Canada). The Church has been titled by various names over its existence. Presently, and for some time now, it has been most commonly referred to as The Byzantine Catholic Church,Inc. (Independent Jurisdiction) Eastern and Western Orthodox Rites.
[members.tripod.com] If you scroll down this page, you will read text that says, emphatically,

Quote
We are an ORTHODOX CATHOLIC Faith with Eastern and Western Orthodox Catholic Rites, and WE ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC, and also we are independent from all other jurisdictions.
If you click the following BCC Patriarchate [members.tripod.com] , you will see another photo of His Holiness, vested differently, but the same man as depicted on the L.S.L.S. site above. Below his photo, you will read:

Quote
THE BYZANTINE CATHOLIC CHURCH, INC. (Independent Jurisdiction)is an Orthodox Catholic jurisdiction and is NOT a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church In America they are Orthodox Catholics in union with Romam Catholic Church.
If you go to the Church's photo album [community.webshots.com] , note that, at the top of the album site main page, it states clearly:

Quote
"The Byzantine Catholic Church,Inc,(Independent Jurisdiction)*WE ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC*-THANK YOU."
Once there, select the link "SOME OF OUR CLERGY,RELIGIOUS FRIENDS AND OTHERS" [community.webshots.com] from the left hand menu. You can then can scroll down and find a picture of your Arch-Abbess.

Hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding.

Many years,

Neil
http://members.tripod.com/BCCPatriarchate/
Posted By: Irish Anchoress Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 07:44 AM
Gobbley-de-gook; not of God.
Matters not an iota;
ui7ytf,jvxdrtfugh0;7t9.ghksezhj/nmbvcxdszxdhlnpoi/jk;lufmgchv;kjlmn,bumfghcvstdzxf/kjlnm
Posted By: Administrator Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 10:55 AM
Dear Irish Anchoress,

Neil is correct. The independent Churches and communities listed in your post are not in any way connected to the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church or to the Orthodox Church. They are all independent organizations. Their websites clearly indicate this.

I am sure that your belief that you are in communion with us is something you honestly believe. Unfortunately, it is not correct. Since your claim is inaccurate and causing ill will on the Forum I must ask you to refrain from identifying your church as being in communion with us.

Admin
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 01:08 PM
To get back to the Holy Rosary...I thought perhaps these might be uplifting.

THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY THE THEOTOKOS
By Archbishop AVERKY of Blessed Memory

JUSTIFICATION FOR MARY'S TITLE, MOTHER OF GOD:

The Justification for Mary's Title as Mother of God can be found in Divine Revelation (Luke 1: 31-32) The text of the first prayer to Mary, Mother of God, is found in the ancient Greek Liturgy written by the Apostle St. James in Jerusalem, and the Liturgy composed by St. Mark, it reads as follows.

Rejoice Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with You.
Blessed are You among women and blessed is the fruit of Your womb, for You have borne the Savior of our souls.

ANGELIC SALUTATION
(4th Century)
(Eastern Byzantine Catholic)

Rejoice, Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with You.
Blessed are You among women and blessed is the fruit of Your womb,
For You have borne Christ, the Savior and Deliverer of our souls.

BOHORODICE DJIVO
Church Slavonic

Bojorodice Djivo radujsja, Blahodatnaja Marije,
Hospod stoboju. Blahoslovenna ty vzenach,
I blahosloven Plod creva tvojeho;
jako rodila jesi Spasa dusam nasim.

--------------------------------------------------

"And he knew her not until she brought forth her first born son and he called his name JESUS" (St. Matthew 1:25).

"AND WHENCE IS THIS TO ME, that the Mother of My Lord should come to me? (St. Luke 1:43). Thus did the Righteous Elizabeth cry out with joy, when the Most Holy Virgin Mary come to her, as to her own relative, in order to share with her the joy of the Annunciation.

The Orthodox Church, following the centuries old teaching which come from the very first days of Christianity, therefore names of the Most Holy Virgin the "Mother of the Lord" or the "Birth giver of God" [Theotokos], and honors her in a sacred manner, and she herself prophesied by saying: "Behold, from hence forth all generations shall call me bless" (St. Luke 1:48), confessing her to be Ever-Virgin, that is forever preserving her vow of virginity.

Is there a foundation for the teaching of the perpetual virginity of the All-Holy Virgin Mary in the Holy Scriptures?

When Archangel Gabriel brought her the glad tidings of her giving birth to a Son who "shall be called the Son of the Highest", in astonishment she replied to him; "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (St. Luke 1:31-34).

Such an answer, full of amazement at the announcement of the angel would have been completely meaningless if she had not given a vow to God to remain a virgin forever. The angel calmed her, explaining to her that her vow would not be broken for she would bear a Son in a supernatural way, without the participation of a man, by the over-shadowing of the Spirit of God.

"The Holy Spirit shall come upon Thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow Thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God," he said to her (St. Luke 1:35).

These words of the Holy Scriptures already in and of themselves serve as a completely sufficient basis for the age-old belief and teaching of the Christian Church that the Most Holy Virgin Mary gave vow to God never to enter into wedlock, always sacredly preserving her virginity. Therefore, the Church honored her "twice wondrous Virgin": a virgin before birth giving, a virgin in giving birth, and a virgin after giving birth.

But who, then, was Joseph, who in the Gospel is sometimes called "her husband" (e.g.. St. Matthew 1:19)? Was he not then her real husband?

Nowhere does it say in the Gospel that the Most Holy Virgin Mary was given in wedlock to Joseph, but it is only said that she was "betrothed" to him (St. Luke 1:27:2:5). It is self-evident that for a young virgin to give the vow of virginity and live completely alone without a protector and defender is extremely difficult and dangerous. Therefore, formally, according to the Law, she was considered as the wife of Joseph, and this protected her from all attempt against the purity and of her virginity. Betrothal, in those times as in others, was legally considered to be equal to marriage, although it was not a complete marriage and did not grant the man who as betrothed the right to enter entirely into the rights of a husband (St. Luke 1:27).

If Joseph the Betrothed had truly been her husband and not just her "betrothed", why would she have expressed such amazement to the archangel in reply to his announcing the birth from her of a son, and why would she ask: "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man" (St. Luke 1:34). Such an objection on her part would otherwise be completely incomprehensible and meaningless!

In the Holy Scriptures there is no mention of the age of Joseph the Betrothed, but it would have been extremely strange to think that the priest or the Temple of Jerusalem, were the All Holy Virgin Mary was brought up, would have betrothed her, with the purpose of preserving her virginity, to a young man, who had not yet married, as is the tendency of though, in agreement with their own aims, of the protestants and sectarians, in opposition to the tradition which has come down from deep antiquity, that Joseph was an elderly widower and already had from his first real and not just seeing marriage grown children, who in the eyes of those around, naturally were considered the "son of Joseph" (cf. St. Luke 4:22; St. Matthew 13: 55-56).

That the Gospel of St. Matthew states concerning Joseph and the All Holy Virgin: "He knew her not until she had brought forth her first born son; and he called his name Jesus" (St. Matthew 1:25), does not mean that he afterwards "knew her" and lived with her as a wife.

Entirely correct is the commentary of St. John Chyrsostom that a righteous man such as Joseph (and that he was a righteous man is clear from St. Matthew 1:19), could not decide to know a virgin after she had in such a miraculous way - - through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit - - became the Mother of the Son of God Himself. And the same Chrysostom cities a whole series of places in the Holy Scripture where this word "until", which is the translation of the Greek "heos", has meaning entirely opposite to the meaning attributed to it by the protestants and sectarians.

"This word," he says "does not lay down limits beyond which the action did not continue, does not signify any allotted time." Thus, in the account of the book of Genesis of the universal flood, it is said "and the raven did not return to the ark until [heos] the water had receded from the earth" (Genesis 8:6), but it did not return even after this. Likewise, concerning God, the Scripture says: "even from everlasting Thou art" (Psalm 89:2), but by this no limits are laid down. Likewise we also read in the 109th Psalm; "The Lord said unto my Lord: Sit Thou at My Right hand, until [heos] I make Thine enemies the footstool of thy feet" (Isaiah 55:10), but it is obvious that when it was watered the earth, the rain will not return.

In the parable of the merciless detour it is said, "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors till [heos] he should pay all that was due until him" (St. Matthew 18:34), i.e. in essence forever, for how and what could he pay his debt when he was in the hands of the tormentors? The word "heos" is used in the farewell of the Lord with His disciples: "Lo, I am with you always, even unto [heos] the end of the age" (St. Matthew 28:20); but this does not mean, as Blessed Theophylact rightly notes, that after the end of the age of Christ all will no longer be with us. No! It is precisely then that He will even more so be with us.

That the Evangelist Matthew states that the Most HOly Virgin Mary "brought forth her first born son" (St. Matthew 1:25) in no way gives rise to the thought that after Jesus she bore other children. "The first born son" is the name applied to Jesus here not because He was the first, and, furthermore, the only one, born of her. In the Old Testament, as we know, God commanded to dedicate to Him "every first male", with no view whatsoever as to whether there would be other children after him or not" (cf. Ex. 13:2; Num. 3:13).

So easily and simply do all these unfound claims of the protestants and sectarians fall apart, when they deny with such vicious stubbornness the ancient teach of the Christian Church concerning the Ever-Virgin Birthgiver of God! They do not even take the trouble to consider why the Lord Jesus Christ would entrust His MOther to His disciple John, during the Crucifixion, if she had several of her own sons and daughters? Would none of them really have taken her in as a mother and cared for her?

What, then, is the reason for such surprising and stubborn dislike on the part of the protestants and sectarians for the ancient teaching of the Christian Church concerning the Ever-Virgin Mother of God?

The reason is revealed quite simply; it is their general dislike for the ascetic labor of virginity!

The founder and inspirer of protestantism, Martin Luther himself, a Roman Catholic monk who had given the vow of virginity and not feeling himself capable of fulfilling vow, trampled on it by marrying a nun. And in order to justify himself he began the false teaching that for salvation no ascetic labors are necessary at all, but faith alone in Christ is by itself sufficient.

Yet this is in direct opposition to the Holy Scriptures, which the protestants claim as their only authority, although with complete freedom in its interpretation. It is sufficient to cite just one saying of the Holy Apostle James, the Brother of the Lord, who in his catholic epistle states, that faith alone cannot save a person, for "the devils also believe and tremble" (St. James 2:19), and therefore "as body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (St. James 2:26).

Concerning the vow of virginity, this vow is instituted by one one other than by the Divine Virgin and the Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, in His discourse with the disciples on marriage and virginity [St. Matthew 19:3-12].

When the Lord spoke that marriage could not be dissolved except for the sake of adultery, the Apostles were disturbed and said, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry" (St. Matthew 19:10). Correcting a light-minded statement by the disciples, the Lord confirmed that is is indeed "better not to marry", but, at the same time stated that the preservation of chastity is an ascetic labor which all cannot bear. "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given" (St. Matthew 19:11), and thus He established virginity on the same moral height as the loftier and more perfect states of spiritual life. Further, the Lord compares the ascetic labor of virginity with voluntary eunuchs; words, which, of course, are not to be taken literally, in the coarse, physical sense, "and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake" (St. Matthew 19:12).

To make oneself a "eunuch for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake" means to cut off completely carnal desire, to slay carnal lust and to decide to lead an unmarried, virginal life, for the sake of a more complete service to God and attainment of the Kingdom of Heaven.

"He that is able to receive it, let him receive it" (St. Matthew 19:12). This means that no one is forced to the ascetic labor of virginity, but be who feels himself, with God's help, must do so.

This is clear undeniable institution by our Savior HImself of the ascetic labor of virginity, which is so great and so pleasing before God. For this reason many thousands of Christian men and women honored the lightness of this ascetic labor and chose it for themselves, and throughout the entire history of the Church they have been glorified for the sanctity of their lives. It was only in the 16th century, that the protestants, in the person of Martin Luther, joined in attach against this Christian institution and, in their dislike for it, did not stop even at blasphemy against the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, denying her virginity and sacrilegiously recognizing her simply as another average woman, like all others who bear children from their husband, and they do not wish to glorify her in opposition to her prophesy, "Behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (St. Luke 1:48).

For this reason it is not surprising, and is even the logical conclusion, that the more extreme of the protestants came to the denial of the miraculous birth from her of the Son of God, as of a pure and undefiled virgin, and strive now to demonstrate that in the great prophesy of Isaiah concerning the birth of Emmanuel of a virgin, one should not read "virgin" but "young maiden" (Isaiah 7:14). Thus step by step, they give in to the propaganda of the atheists, who do not recognize anything lofty or holy.

No one forbids protestants and sectarians from entering into legal matrimony, if they do not feel themselves capable of a virgin life, and to bear children. But why deny and blaspheme that which always over the ages has been sacred in the eyes of all true Christians. And now do they dare to lower and blaspheme the lofty virginity of the Most Pure and All immaculate Virgin -- the Mother of Christ our Hod!

The voice of the Ecumenical Church of Christ unanimously pronounced upon them and all their sympathizers a terrible sentence, already in the ninth century, a sentence which has been included in the magnificently compunction ate Service of Orthodoxy.

"To all who dare to say that the All Pure Virgin Mary was not before giving birth, in giving birth, and after giving birth a Virgin - - anathema! "

And we glorify Her with the angelic doxology, Rejoice, Thou full of grace, the Lord is with Thee!" (St. Luke 1:28).

And for each of us Christians She is the Mother of My Lord" (St. Luke 1:43).

Source: Orthodox Life., Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville, New York.

Her devoted servant,
+Fr. Gregory

MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE US!
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 01:52 PM
REPOST...(to help get back on the subject)

Prayers for the Rule of the Mother of God
Правило Богородицы
A Rosary

By St Seraphim (Zvezdinsky), Russian Orthodox Bishop of Dimitrov, martyred by the Soviets in 1937.

Many thanks to Dr Alex Roman of Toronto, Ontario, Canada for sending this to
A Conservative Site for Peace.

1) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this first decade in honour of the Nativity of Thy Mother, and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the Intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, Thy Divine Protection for families.

[Decade: Our Father. Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God (Hail Mary), 10 times. Glory to the Father.]

Following decade:

Most Holy Mother of God, save and preserve your servants (our parents, relatives and friends), increase their faith and repentance, and give them rest with the saints in your eternal glory.

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2) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this second decade in honour of the Presentation of Thy Mother in the Temple and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the return of those who have fallen away from the Church.

Most Holy Mother of God, save, preserve and unite to the Holy Church your servants who have fallen away (names).

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3) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this third decade in honour of the Annunciation of Thy Mother and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the consolation for those who sorrow.

Most Holy Mother of God, soothe our sorrows and send consolation to your servants who are grieving (names).

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4) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this fourth decade in honour of the Meeting of Thy Mother with St Elizabeth and we ask Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the reunion of the separated.

Most Holy Mother of God, unite your servants who are separated.

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5) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this fifth decade in honour of Thy Nativity, and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of the Most Holy Mother of God, the grace of new life in Thee.

Most Holy Mother of God, grant unto me (us) who have been baptized in Christ to be clothed in Christ.

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6) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this sixth decade in honour of Thy Presentation in the Temple and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the grace of a holy death in union with Thee.

Most Holy Mother of God, let me receive the Holy Mysteries with my last breath, and lead my soul yourself through the terrible torments.

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7) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this seventh decade in honour of Thy flight into Egypt and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the grace to flee from temptations and deliverance from misfortunes.

Most Holy Mother of God, lead me not into temptation in this life and deliver me from misfortunes.

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8) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this eighth decade in honour of Thy finding in the Temple and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother the grace of unceasing Prayer in Thy Name.

Most Holy Mother of God, grant to me the unceasing Jesus Prayer.

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9) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this ninth decade in honour of Thy miracle at Cana of Galilee and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the constant assistance of Thy Mother in all our needs.

Most Holy Mother of God, help me always and deliver me from every need and sorrow.

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10) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this tenth decade in honour of Thy Mother's standing at the foot of Thy Cross, and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the grace of strengthening of our souls and the banishment of despondency.

Most Holy Mother of God, strengthen my soul and banish my despair.

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11) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this eleventh decade in honour of Thy Resurrection and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the resurrection of our souls and courage for spiritual feats.

Most Holy Mother of God, resurrect my soul and give me constant readiness for spiritual feats.

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12) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this twelfth decade in honour of Thy Ascension and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the raising up of our souls from earthly things to heavenly inspirations.

Most Holy Mother of God, deliver me from worldly thoughts and give me a mind and heart striving for salvation.

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13) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this thirteenth decade in honour of Thy sending of the Holy Spirit into the world and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother the coming of the Holy Spirit into our souls.

Most Holy Mother of God, create in me a clean heart in which the Holy Spirit will be pleased to make His dwelling.

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14) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this fourteenth decade in honour of the Dormition of Thy Mother and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother the grace of the Heavenly reward.

Most Holy Mother of God, grant me a peaceful and serene end and then lead me to Thy Son in Heaven.

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15) We offer Thee, Lord Jesus, this fifteenth decade in honour of Thy Coronation of Thy Mother and we ask of Thee, through this Mystery and through the intercession of Thy Most Holy Mother, the grace of Her Honourable Mantle of Protection throughout our lives.

Most Holy Mother of God, preserve me from every evil and cover me with your Honourable Protecting Mantle.


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Rule of the Mother of God in honour of the Five Sorrows

One decade each for:

Our Lady's suffering on hearing Simeon's Prophecy and for a knowledge and sorrow for our sins;

Our Lady's suffering during her three-day search for her Son and for the forgiveness of all our sins.

Our Lady's suffering on hearing of her Son being seized and bound - for the restoration of the virtues lost through sin.

Our Lady's suffering on seeing her Son crucified and for the gift of Christ's mercy in the hour of death, to receive the Mysteries.

Our Lady's suffering on seeing her Son placed in the Tomb and for the grace to see Christ at the hour of death and to be received into Heaven.

Our Lady's glory in Heaven, as our Sovereign and constant Protection.

Three "Hail Marys" in honour of the 63 years of her life on earth.

Our Blessed Mother's poorest son,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/19/04 02:06 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

You always come up with the most excellent posts! smile

I love the above post - absolutely wonderful! smile smile

The final part of the Five Sorrows above is taken from St Dmitri of Rostov's "Tale of the Five Prayers."

He himself also fulfilled the special Rule of saying a "Hail Mary" at the start of every hour, day and night - he was wakened by the sound of the clock throughout the night, got out of bed and recited the Hail Mary then went back to bed (!)

I'm getting my students in religion class to learn the above method of saying the Rule and they seem to be positively open to it!

They will each get an icon button of the Mother of God and a small prayer rope.

I've also found that the girls in the class find it very easy to relate to the Most Holy Mother of God (and certainly I believe that any religion teacher must focus strongly on her role to get across the true meaning of Christianity).

I put one of her icons up at the front and refer to her special, mystical role in the Incarnation frequently.

One of the great blessings in our class is that it is SHE who appears to be having the real impact and I'm just there to carry her Icons, distribute her rosary and generally just look after things to help facilitate the process . . .

I feel very blessed to fulfill a role like that!

(It is similar to the one I fulfill at home as well!)

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/21/04 04:54 PM
The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary On-Line: http://www.geocities.com/littleofficebvm/

May she intercede with her Divine Son for us always!

In thankgiving for all her graces,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/21/04 05:04 PM
Another good site for the Little Office:

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/LittleOfficeBVM.htm

Stay near us O Virgin and protect all those who pray to thee!

In devotion to her,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Unsubscribe Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/21/04 09:09 PM
What a tremendous reward for struggling through ALL EIGHT PAGES of unrelated posts on the rosary only to find - at last - your link direction, dear Father, to the The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary . Thank you Father Gregory for your keeping everyone on track!
Posted By: Arystarcus Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/21/04 11:17 PM
Quote
Thank you Father Gregory for your keeping everyone on track!
Sometimes it takes the gentle prodding from a priest to get people back on the right track. wink

In Christ,
Aaron
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 11/23/04 01:58 PM
Archbishop Fulton Sheen was fond of saying, that the Blessed Mother is the ONLY human being that could look DOWN to Heaven because she carried Heaven within her womb! How beautiful is that?

To her to be praise and glory unto to ages of ages, Amen. "All generations shall called me blessed!"

In her holy and precious name,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: rcguest Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/05/05 02:30 AM
This doesn't have anything to do with the above except that it pertains to the Rosary.

I bought a really nice little booklet the other day entitled "Mysteries of Light - Meditations on the Mysteries of the Rosary with John Paul II".

Each Mystery, all twenty are included, has a short Gospel quotation and a meditation from JPII's Apostolic Letter "Rosarium Virginis Mariae" and is illustrated with a color icon by Helen Protopapadakis-Papaconstantinou. Greek maybe? smile

It is by Liguori Publications and is a little pricey at $10 for it's size, but it is very well done.

Here's a link to it:

www.liguori.org/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1488 [liguori.org]
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/06/05 03:16 PM
I've finally thought of a good reason why the Rosary may be for many a more preferred prayer than the choki; it quite simple too if you think about it. The choki and the Jesus Prayer need to be said with COMPLETE and ABSOLUTE attention to the words of the prayer...something that is easier to do in a place of complete recollection and quiet (hence the reason why it is usually a monastic excerise of pieity...and for monks and nuns)...but the Rosary gives us a whole 'PLAN' for prayer...because there are specific meditations to focus upon: the Mysteries of Salvation and our faith---hence, it is a very focused prayer and there is the 'opportunity' to flee distractions more easily. With the prayer rope and the Jesus Prayer, you need to focus on the words of the prayer alone...and this demands a much more recollected way of life and great quiet to do it properly and with benefit. With the 'Western' Rosary...you can use the aids of pictures of the mysteries or a form like the Scriptural Rosary or any number of 'helps' that will aide you in maintaining a recollected state of mind...and hence the chance of greater profit.

That's my personal opinion and what I've been thinking about lately anyway. I could be 'all wet' in this...it wouldn't be the first time. wink

With love for you all!

Your brother in Christ,
+Gregory, priestmonk
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/06/05 03:19 PM
P.S. Sorry for mis-spelling CHOTKI...it wasn't intentional I assure you. I have great regard for this manner of prayer also...it just doesn't seem as advantagous for people who are VERY active and involve in worldly persuits.

In Christ Who is LORD,
+Fr. G
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/06/05 03:37 PM
Dear Father Gregory,

I agree with you.

What I have found works easier for me with the chotki is to say the Jesus Prayer as I am drifting off to sleep. It seems an appropriate time for such a prayer.

The rosary and the chotki are both different-- but I think that it is great to use both.

Also, sometimes, I like to say the Hail Marys and subsequent prayers (oh my Jesus--forgive us of our sins....and...the Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy...) as I would the Jesus Prayer...repetitively (without any necessary meditation) as I am driving, or doing something else. What more beautiful prayer is there?

( Is there any question as to what is my all time favorite religious hymn is? I especially love Andrea Bocelli's voice singing the Ava Maria) smile

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/06/05 03:53 PM
Dear Alice, I agree completely. I use the Jesus Prayer in the exact same way...before drifting off to sleep, in this way when I stop praying (having fallen asleep...the angels continue it for me...at least that's what I was always taught). My favorite hymn is "Immaculate Mary"...most French-Canadians love this hymn because it is sung for processionals at St. Anne de Beaupr� (Le Petit Cap) and Cap de la Madeleine (the national shrine of Our Lady in Three Rivers). At Cap de la Medeleine, we French-Canadians say this prayer-rule:

Chaplet of Notre Dame du Cap

O Holy Virgin Mary,
our most merciful Mother and powerful Queen,
we Thy children humbly prostrate before Thee,
implore Thy grace and help.

With confidence we come to Thee,
O Queen of the Holy Rosary;
to Thee do we turn our eyes.
Bestow on us, we beg Thee,
this special favor which we ask . . .

Grant us health of body and purity of soul:
increase our faith and love so that
we may know Thy Divine Son
better and serve Him ever faithfully.

O tender and merciful Mother, intercede for those
who are dear to us. Heal the sick,
comfort the dying, and have pity on the
faithful departed. Protect our families;
guard our country; and keep holy Mother
Church safe from all evil.

Our Lady of the Cape, may we love Thee
more and more, so that one day
united with Thee in Heaven,
we may praise Thy Son eternally. Amen.

Say:

10 Our Fathers
10 Hail Marys
10 Glorias

The Web-Site of Our Lady of the Cape is found here...if anyone is interested: http://www.catholictradition.org/ducap.htm (Alice, you'll LOVE it!)

Your brother in her family,
+Fr. Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Posted By: Chaire Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/06/05 10:53 PM
Dear Father Gregory,
Thank you for you inciteful post comparing the Jesus prayer and the Rosary. At one point I quit saying the Rosary and only focused on the Jesus prayer but I began to feel as if something was missing. So now I am back to using both of them.
I think the Rosary gives your mind more freedom to think and to ponder as the Virgin Mary continually pondered her Son every day of His life...His every word, His every action.
To go deeper into the silence of the Jesus prayer one does have to practice it in a specific place that is quiet. But I have found that when I am faithful to that daily practice then in the course of my busy day the prayer will suddenly come bubbling out of me(interiorly, I mean). And those moments may not last very long but they are like little arrows in the day that pierce through all my garbled thoughts and get me back to the Essential.
Well that is just my 2 cents as I strive to become a being of prayer but often fail.
Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner.
Humbly,
Marie
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/12/05 02:28 PM
Claire, Same here...I stopped praying the Rosary for many years, but now can't understand how I ever got along withOUT it! I pray it now at least twice a day (yesterday 4 times...even had time to do the Luminous Mysteries). I can simply be more focused with the Rosary, than with the chotki. It might be that I'm not as recollected as I should be...or that I need more help to remain focused, but for me personally, the Rosary works best. I tried for over 20+ years to use only the chotki, but have now found that it is simply not the best prayer for me. What's important is that one find what works best from him/her---and then pray!

May Lent bring us all closer to Him through Our Lady's intercession!

In His great love for us all,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: ALivingSacrifice Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/12/05 06:55 PM
I've tried the Latin Rosary, I've tried the eastern Rosary and I've continued to pray the Prayer of the Heart. The chotki around my wrist reminds me that Jesus is always with me and that I can always reach out to Him through prayer. I find it easier to pray the Jesus prayer than to pray the Rosary of Our Lady on a daily basis.
Not to say that I always can concentrate when praying the Jesus prayer. All too often my mind wanders to "parts unknown." But in front of the icons my mind refocuses; the prayer allows me to focus on Christ's being the Lord of my life and that I am simply a sinner imploring "The Son of God" to have mercy on me.
Not that this should give the impression that I am advanced in the discipline of praying, I am not! It's a daily struggle. But through God's grace and through our glorious Lady's intercession I am (I hope!) taking small steps toward praying continuously(if I ever get there...we'll see!)
In Christ's perfect love,
Sarai
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/12/05 11:55 PM
Father Gregory,

As time has progressed I have fallen from the Rosary, not on purpose, mostly from poor health. However, I had been so devoted to it and had knew the power of the prayers so many times. But since our accident in 2002, I have had a terrible time praying it. I am not able to concentrate, seldom finish. I lost my favorite rosary beads then (the car was totaled), they were just clear plastic but had beautiful pearl red beads (plastic also), like Christ's blood. I also lost my gold cross that I wore all the time. I lived through that accident, the doctors say it was nothing but miraculous, so why did I loose the prayer? I think I am just lazy. I am truly getting frustrated, help!

Pani Rose

Pani Rose
Posted By: Lawrence Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/13/05 12:53 AM
A few days before the beginning of Lent I resolved to say the Rosary on a daily basis. Since then I've been going out to my car in the driveway (one of the few places I can say it undisturbed) several times a day. Since the Rosary can be said inside of 15 minutes, I've been amazed how relatively easy it can be to say at least a couple a day.
Posted By: Alice Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/13/05 03:09 AM
Dear Pani Rose,

I know that you live near EWTN, so I assume that you get it on t.v.

They pray the rosary three times a day. I personally think that the Holy Land Rosary with Father Mitch Pacwa is awesome.

It is very easy to pray along with these visual rosaries that also lead you in prayer.

On the other hand, at different times in our lives, we need the diversity of different prayers and/or different ways to pray them.

For many years when I wasn't working the Rosaries of EWTN were my primary Marian devotion and brought me many spiritual blessings.

Then, when that became difficult because of going back into the working world, my parish's Tuesday night supplication services to the Theotokos became a life saver.

Most recently, in addition to that, because sometimes our priest is not able to offer them for weeks on end, I listen to the beautiful angelic female voices of EIKONA's CD of the supplication service in the car commuting. I also listen to their Akathist, and other such CD's. I have disciplined myself to never listen to anything but religious services in the car.

That is now...when that gets dry, I will have to find new ways of keeping my spiritual life alive...

So don't worry, what you are feeling is not uncommon.

Hope this helps! smile

With love in Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/13/05 07:00 AM
Dear Pani Rose, +May the LORD bless you! I understand the problem with attention...it is a problem for all of us from time to time. Alice's suggestions are good...I would try those...and try whatever works for you. For me personally, I use the Scriptural Rosary and it is a great help for keeping my focus while praying the Rosary...and sometimes I use little pictures of each Mystery from an old prayerbook from the 1950's. Keep your prayers short and say them as if (as one of the Fathers once said) you are standing in hell-fire and want release. I find that when I'm praying for someone else and their great need---that my attention is always good...so pray for someone in great need. If you need people, you know many on from our 'PRAYER' section here who have very great needs---pray for them. If that doesn't work---then you can always pray for me...as you know, I always need prayer badly. Keep it short and simple and from the heart. Short aspirations are even good: LORD JESUS MERCY!---is a great one...MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, SAVE US WHO HAVE RECOURSE TO YOU!---is also good...or any favorites that you have and know well. Don't become discouraged...that's a tool of the evil one. Just keep up the dialogue with the Lord and His Mother Holy Mother...as I'm sure you do anyway. Lord teach me to pray!---is also good...anything that works. Plus...we'll be praying FOR you too. Know that.

With much love in Him Who calls us,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/13/05 07:04 AM
Lawrence, I always pray the Rosary when traveling to and from work...it's not a long commute, but I always say the Rosary at least twice...and if I go out to a client's home, then I pray some more...so that by the end of the day, I usually pray all 15 decades...and often more. You idea of using your car as a 'prayer-room' is excellent. We have to do such things in this day and age---always use whatever works. The important thing is that we pray...often...and much and fervently.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory, who can always use your holy prayers!
Posted By: Chaire Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/13/05 04:10 PM
The car has become my cell or hermitage also. I venerate my icon upon entering just as I did when I lived in a hermitage and it is truly a sacred space. We have a radio station called Radio Maria that I listen to almost all the time. Throughout the day they pray the rosary, the Divine Mercy Chaplet, the LOTH and they have a variety of different programs that are so informative. Like Alice, I no longer listen to anything but religious programs or music. In doing that, you are constantly feeding your soul with the necessary armor to go out and battle the world. The greatest armor....the armor of prayer.
Humbly in Mary,
Chaire
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/14/05 03:36 PM
Dear Friends,

A great example of continuous prayer in this way is St Pio of Pietrelcina!

I understand that he prayed 20, 30 or even 40 15- decade rosaries each day . . .

His rosary is fragrant with heavenly fragrance as a result.

Padre Pio prayer groups try to emulate the unceasing prayer of his holy saint of God in their lives.

One may have a "tenner" or decade rosary on one's person at all times - one never knows when one can pray or when one will NEED to pray.

There are ring rosaries and wrist rosaries to serve as prayer reminders.

One can even use a small abacus on one's desk.

People in the Middle Ages would have "bead bags" slung over their shoulders and finger their beads inside them.

As they travelled, they would begin to measure distances between villages and towns in terms of the number of rosaries they could pray before they got from "Point A" to "Point B."

Thus, the phrase, "this town is seven rosaries away from here."

The large Our Father beads were called the "gaudies" because they "stuck out" from the others - a term we still use today.

("Bead" is, of course, the old English word for "prayer.")

Rosaries were also called "Pater Nosters" since 150 Our Father's were prayed on them as well.

The guild of "Pater Nosterers" made rosaries to sell by great churches and "Paternoster Row" near the Cathedral of St Paul in London is still there, paying mute tribute to the trade that used to have its headquarters there.

People whispered their "Pater Nosters" so often that the sound they made soon translated into the familiar "pitter patter" (from "Pater").

An Italian Cardinal writing from London in the 14th century once said, "All the English attend Mass daily and then they say their "Paters" on long strands of beads. . ."

Alex
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/14/05 03:40 PM
Blessed Alan de la Roche said: "Let everyone who loves you, oh most holy Mary, listen to this and drink it:

Whenever I say
Hail Mary
The court of heaven rejoices
And the earth
Is lost in wonderment.
And I despise the world
And my heart is brim-full
Of the love of God
When I say
Hail Mary;
All my fears
Wilt and die
And my passions are quelled
If I say
Hail Mary;
Devotion grows
Within me
And sorrow for sin
Awakens
When I say
Hail Mary.
Hope is made strong
In my breast
And the dew of consolation
Falls on my soul
More and more-
Because I say
Hail Mary.
And my spirit
Rejoices
And sorrow fades away
When I say
Hail Mary . . . ."


Consecrated to her service,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/14/05 04:03 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

Have you ever come across a picture of Blessed Alan anywhere?

I would happily pay for such!

May all the world be as Orthodox as you, Father!

Alex
Posted By: Father Gregory Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/14/05 04:31 PM
Dear Alex, +May the LORD bless you always! This is the only one I've ever seen:

http://www.op.org/international/english/History/rosary.htm Enjoy!

Queens of the Most Holy Rosary...pray unto God for us!

In His great love for us,
+Fr. Gregory
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Holy Rosary - 02/14/05 04:50 PM
Bless, Father Gregory,

Ah, will your wonders never cease? I hope not - for all our sakes!!

As you know, Blessed Alan was never beatified and this was more of an "honorific" title.

But he was venerated locally and especially by St Louis de Montfort - who always insisted on his public liturgical veneration and this because of Alan's great devotion to the Rosary.

Alex
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