are Icons always painted on wood?

what are the specific rules regarding Icons in the east?
God Bless+ and the Virgin keep you

I have heard of tapestry icons and have seen some of beaten metal. There are various traditions for icons.

You may be interested in browsing these links as an introduction: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddr9pbdz_18c25xjs

Terry

thanks

Icons can be painted on wood, painted on glass, made from mosaic, embroidered, hammered out of metal... lots of different media!

Dave

Originally Posted by Altar Server

what are the specific rules regarding Icons in the east?
God Bless+ and the Virgin keep you

Shlomo Alter Server,

Just an FYI, icons are never painted, the are written.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

thanks Chetc and thanks Yuhannon I had no idea

Are there icons at your parish?

My Joys, My Treasures,

Wasn't St. James The Apostle the first iconographer? I remember seeing an icon that was said to be one he had written. If that is true then how can a "follower of Christ" smash any icons and say they are idolitry such as the iconoclasts by the Salvation Army? Ignorance is bliss i guess.

In Him,
poor seraphim

Mosaics out of the beaten metal used to be fairly popular. The entry to my Ruthenian Church has them over the doors to the Sanctuary. Beautiful.

I'd like to see a return to Mosaics, but feel this is a lost art.

No Terry there aren't sadly I'm currently a RC so no Icons

I'm a RC and there is an icon at my parish, it's beautiful.

My Joys, My Treasures,

I have heard that RC is starting to embrace the dogma of icons as us OC. Even in the protestant churches and LDS you find pictures of Christ but no where near the teaching that an icon can.

Hey Terry, is the icon Byzantine or modern?

poor seraphim

Poor Seraphim,

It is an old icon, I don't know when it was written but I would venture it was in the late 1800s. It is Our Lady of Perpetual Help and is written in the Byzantine style with the exception of the crown. Of the pictures I've seen online the closest is this: http://www.olph.net/olph/olph.jpg

I don't know how many of my parishioners embrace the dogma of icons, but many people place candles in front of the icon. The side chapel can get pretty warm. I even caught my priest lighting a candle before the holy icon. I remained silent and prayed with him.

I find it spiritually invigorating to pray scripture before the icon after mass, I do that on weekdays when I can. I find that I cannot write on spiritual matters unless I enter into prayer. My imagination is so limited without grace.

Terry

yeah cool thanks guys

Stormshadow writes:

Quote

I'd like to see a return to Mosaics, but feel this is a lost art.

May I suggest a visit to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Saint Sophia Catholicon on Via Boccea in Rome? The mosaics, done about 30 years ago, are magnificently breath-taking.

Fr. Serge

Originally Posted by Yuhannon

Shlomo Alter Server,

Just an FYI, icons are never painted, the are written.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Altar Server,

No disrespect intended to Yuhannon or anyone else on this August Forum, but I'd like to point out that the use of the verb 'written' rather than 'painted' for icons is advocated by a fiercely committed group of Eastern Christians, but it is not universally held by Eastern Christians. Many of us, perhaps the majority, still use the verb 'paint' for how icons are produced.

A note to all of those who take the word write as seriously as homoousios or filioque: I'm not interested in fighting over this. I was simply pointing out to an innocent bystander that there is a disagreement on this point among Eastern Christians of all stripes: Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, etc.

Fr David Straut

Dear Father David,

With the obvious exception of mosaics, one does indeed "paint" icons. The Greek word "grapheo" means both "to write" and "to paint". The same word lies at the root of "photograph" - does anyone think that a shutterbug "writes" his snapshots?

This foolishness about "writing" icons is an indication of the general illiteracy of our times.

fraternally yours in Christ,

Serge

Dear Fr Serge,

I wholeheartedly agree, but when I expressed myself in this Forum in the past on this subject, I found it to be about as useful as talking to the proverbial brick wall. There are those who feel that the sine qua non of being an Orthodox/Eastern/Greek Catholic/Ukrainian (etc.) Christian is to write icons. That to speak of painting icons is some sort of Pledge of Allegiance to Latin Scholasticism or the dreaded New World Order!

My telling them the linguistic truth had about as much effect on them as the Bishops had on dear Nancy Pelosi when they informed her what her Church has always believed about abortion.

Fraternally,

Fr David

When I was living in South Carolina, I stopped at the bookstore of the local Episcopal cathedral. As I was browsing, I saw a hand-painted icon of the Mother of God. Out of curiosity, I asked the woman behind the counter if it was painted by one of the members of the cathedral. She informed me that it was, and that if I was interested in icons, the nearby Lutheran seminary offered a course in icons. I thanked her for the information, and informed her that I was Orthodox and painted icons as well. What followed was as amusing as it was bizarre.

"You mean you pray icons."

"Uh, what?"

"You don't paint icons, you pray icons."

I've been around ecclesiastical circles long enough to know the groundless debate over "write vs. paint" but this was the first time I ever encountered someone who insisted that the correct terminology is "pray."

My initial reaction was to say, "Hey, lady, I'm the real deal--I was raised in the Orthodox Church and I've been painting icons since I was 9! I don't need some uppity Episcopalian who heard one talk on icons telling me what I do or don't do. And, come on, at least argue for something that has some basis in reality!"

But, I figured THAT response wouldn't be Christian, and simply explained to her that some iconographers say paint, and some say write. I left the "pray" thing alone.

Oh, good times...

Dave
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

Dear Father David,

I would much rather agree with you than with Nancy Pelosi!

Did you know, incidentally, that in Shakespearean terms abortion can be called "Love's Labor Lost"?

fraternally yours in Christ,

Serge

I have all kinds of icons in my room. Sometimes I will light my oil lamp in front of Christ and Theotokos, play some chant and pray. It is beautiful to look at them all with just an ounce of flickering light, trust me. The saints love it when someone lights a candle or lamp in front of their icon. It is a symbol of Christ's light unto the world.

What is really neat is when you ask a child what this or that icon is about and they can tell you what it is about and what each part is for - a child that is raised up in the faith.

poor seraphim

Dave,

I had to laugh - but I've heard that usage before. Now, you'll cost me a night's sleep trying to recollect where.

Stormshadow,

There are still mosaic icons written, glued, painted, or prayed (take your pick) in the Armenian Church and they are not unknown among the Melkites and Antiochians.

Bless Fathers David and Serge,

When one considers the relatively wide range of media in which Eastern and Oriental Christians have honored God, His Mother, the Saints and Prophets - on paint applied to wood, mosaic, terra-cotta, etched and hammered metal, on glass, embroidered, carved wood, frescoed, enameled, (and I've likely overlooked some medium - ahh, digitalized, which will come in time to be accepted as an art form acceptable in and of itself to iconography), it's hard to imagine that the argument of "writing' can still be seriously advanced.

But, these are the same folks who are also willing to decry the possibility that there are any true icons other than those fashioned by tempura on wood and the acheiropoietai.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,
I think what you wanted to say was TEMPERA.I really don't mean to be nit-picky but it's Wednesday and we just returned from a dinner of vegetable tempura. I've always wanted to type this -"lol" !!!
Thanks for the chuckle,
Nino

Originally Posted by Nino

I think what you wanted to say was TEMPERA

Nino,

Nah - it's a new iconic medium (gives real texture to the presentation and is particularly effective in iconic depictions of such things as the multiplication of loaves and fishes); it is being pioneered by a crypto-byzantine community of icon writers in the remote islands of Japan. LOL.

Many years,

Neil

Shlomo Abun Dawoud,

I do not feel disrespected. As noted, I did put a smiley at the end of my statement.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Originally Posted by Chtec

When I was living in South Carolina, I stopped at the bookstore of the local Episcopal cathedral. As I was browsing, I saw a hand-painted icon of the Mother of God. Out of curiosity, I asked the woman behind the counter if it was painted by one of the members of the cathedral. She informed me that it was, and that if I was interested in icons, the nearby Lutheran seminary offered a course in icons...

Toward the end of the 90s it seems as though there was an interest in iconography among mainline Protestant denominations in a way that spoke to their hunger and thirst as the descendents of iconoclasts. (But one has to ask, really HOW iconoclastic were they? One can't go to a flea market without seeing for sale someone's dear Methodist Aunt Millie's painting of Jesus up for sale, I digress...)

I suspect that for a good many of them (many of whom were no longer as charged up in their fear of "popery") icons seemed reasonable inasmuch as they weren't "too roman" and they weren't like those mysterious statues of "Jesus' mom" the elderly often have in their garden...

I can't say that I see as much interest as I once did... I think it was - for some of them - almost the equivalent of a spiritual fad. I don't know what the "in" thing is today...

Still, the notion that a Lutheran seminary was - at least for a time - a hotbed of byzantine sacred arts... The irony isn't lost on me!

well last night I attended an orthodox church and the Icons where beautiful I never relized how deep the tradition ran so to speak they where everywhere the priest must have had at least 10 in his office

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite

Originally Posted by Nino

I think what you wanted to say was TEMPERA

Nino,

Nah - it's a new iconic medium (gives real texture to the presentation and is particularly effective in iconic depictions of such things as the multiplication of loaves and fishes); it is being pioneered by a crypto-byzantine community of icon writers in the remote islands of Japan. LOL.

Many years,

Neil

As the all-time king of typos I can only chuckle at this one...

And be reminded of a newscaster who, when talking about sects of Islam mentioned over and over Wasabi Muslims...

One wonders what a culinary and interfaith delight it would be if Wasabi Muslims took to creating tempura icons.

That's like when I was clicking two clam shells together and told my wife, "Look, I have katanas!"

My Joys, My Treasures,

Hey Altar Server, check out the story about Prince Vladmir of Russia. He sent out his people to find the church for him to attend. This is the beginning of Russia becoming Orthodox.... It is a very interesting story. You see the beauty in every Orthodox Church. You notice the use of ALL five senses of the body.

poor seraphim

This thread is about icons and the media in which they are produced - traditionally and in more recent times - and, it is to be expected that there will be disagreement between those of a more traditional bent versus those who perceive that iconography today has media available to it that would not have been considered - or in some cases even imagined - in the era when the holy art was conceived.

What this thread is NOT about is ecclesial or secular politics under the guise of bickering about the rendering of names that are clear to most each and every one of us. I strongly suggest that the thread return to its topic immediately; I find most repugnant the idea that a thread on iconography would require closure and, if it does, there will be consequences for anyone who precipitates the need to do so.

Many years,

Neil

For those who might be interested, the Icon and Book Service in Washington, DC has a new website.

Still a work in progress, but promising.

http://stores.homestead.com/hstrial-EBlaettler/StoreFront.bok

I note that the first item listed for sale is a book about the preservation of Russian Iconography during and after the Soviet years; Hidden and Triumphant: The Underground Struggle to Save Russian Iconography

Thanks for posting this website Two Lungs. I lost track of what happened to the Icon and Book Service after they moved out of Westbury. I thought they went to Washington but wasn't sure...

Glad to see Elaine is still going!!!

Quote

Hidden and Triumphant: The Underground Struggle to Save Russian Iconography, by Irina Yazykova; Translated by Paul Grenier; Foreword by Frederica Mathewes-Green

SKU:

Despite persecution and the destruction of monasteries and much of religious life, a small group of iconographers kept the ancient story and practice alive. In Hidden and Triumphant, Irina Yazykova tells the dramatic history of the Russian Orthodox icon in the 20th century. She tells the saga of those iconographers who at great personal cost preserved the tradition from the time of the Bolshevik persecutions through to the present day, restoring and developing Russian iconography under the harshest of circumstances. Adopting the art of the icon from Byzantine tradition, medieval Russia developed its own unique iconography that for many centuries was a glory of the Russian culture. But in 1917, Russia was turned upside down by the Bolshevik revolution. During the ensuing persecutions of the Church, many monasteries and churches were ruined, icons destroyed, and thousands of believers killed or sent to Soviet prisons and labor camps. Many iconographers painted holy images secretly while in prison. Others were forced to leave Russia altogether, and while living abroad, struggled to preserve their Orthodox traditions. These are their stories. Today¿s renaissance of Russian iconography unites the traditions of the medieval past and is made possible by the sacrifices of this previous generation of heroes. 8 page color insert of illustrations. 192pp (Hardcover) - AVAILABLE DECEMBER 2008 Paraclete

PRICE: $27.00

Sounds like a great book. But I can't find any information about the author. Is she an historian or a theologian or an iconographer?

Originally Posted by poor seraphim

My Joys, My Treasures,

Hey Altar Server, check out the story about Prince Vladmir of Russia. He sent out his people to find the church for him to attend. This is the beginning of Russia becoming Orthodox.... It is a very interesting story. You see the beauty in every Orthodox Church. You notice the use of ALL five senses of the body.

poor seraphim

Thanks for the idea I've been considering converting to orthodoxy and recently attended my local OCA parish and met with the priest after vespers it was great

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite

This thread is about icons and the media in which they are produced - traditionally and in more recent times - and, it is to be expected that there will be disagreement between those of a more traditional bent versus those who perceive that iconography today has media available to it that would not have been considered - or in some cases even imagined - in the era when the holy art was conceived.

What this thread is NOT about is ecclesial or secular politics under the guise of bickering about the rendering of names that are clear to most each and every one of us. I strongly suggest that the thread return to its topic immediately; I find most repugnant the idea that a thread on iconography would require closure and, if it does, there will be consequences for anyone who precipitates the need to do so.

Many years,

Neil

Bravo. Let us return to the point of this thread!

Fr David Straut

This is a reminder to stay on topic...all posts that do not-- have, and will be, removed!

Alice, Moderator

Speaking on staying on topic....icons are also woven into trapestries such as the Holy Shroud of our Lord, our Lady, banners, and on vestments. I have a special liking toward vestment backs. I appreciate the workmanship that goes into producing them.

Ray

Originally Posted by Halia12

I can't find any information about the author. Is she an historian or a theologian or an iconographer?

She is a doctoral candidate and head of the Department of Christian Art History at St. Andrew Biblical Theological Institute in Moscow (decribed as "one of the first secular theological institutions of higher education that opened immediately after perestroika and (is) the first higher education institution in Moscow to receive state accreditation for a "theology" major. The institute gives a secular theological education, based on a broad spectrum of general humanistic disciplines.")

An article by her. [stjohndc.org]

Many years,

Neil

I have again removed several off-topic posts that sought to continue the earlier tangent relative to names, etc, defending it as being about spelling and history.

You can believe what you choose as to historical events, you are free to disagree with the manner in which any name is spelt, the ethnicity ascribed to any individual, or the sequence or nature of historical events - you are also free, within the limits of civil discourse and debate - to carry on such discussion in another thread - on an appropriate forum. This forum is about iconography and this thread is about iconography and the media in which it is expressed.

My final warning to all participants - DO NOT, at risk of having your posting privileges be restricted, seek to divert or interrupt discussion relevant to the thread's titled topic!!!