www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Pani Rose Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/12/07 10:47 PM
Someone posted this link on another forum and really it is something I had never given much thought to. Also, I wonder if the same significance is given to it, not in respect, but in meaning. Any ideas?

http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2007/09/st-thomas-aquinas-on-signs-of-cross-in.html
Posted By: John Doucette Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/12/07 10:54 PM
Slava Isusu Khrystu!

I believe that one can never be too reverent at the celebration of Mass/Divine Liturgy. I think that reverence adds to the awesomeness of the Holy Mystery of any religious service. I also believe that our individual deportment in Church should foremost!

Peace,

John Doucette
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 02:52 PM
Dear Pani,

The Sign of the Cross in our liturgy is done in conjunction with the invocation and glorification of the Holy Trinity. The method in the article is connected to a meditation on Christ's Passion and this brings up a fundamentally different emphasis between our Churches.

Alex
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 06:28 PM
Another person calculated the numbers and it varies between 48 and 53 depending on the Mass and Feast.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 06:39 PM
Dear Dr Eric,

At the back of the new edition of the Jordanville prayer book are the meticulous rules for making the Sign of the Cross, during the Divine Liturgy: Sign of the Cross with bows, with no bows, when not to Cross oneself etc. etc.

I thank Pani Rose for this thread. I didn't know that Latin Catholics still crossed themselves . . . smile

Alex
Posted By: John K Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 07:21 PM
At the Anglo-Catholic parish I currently attend, the sign of the cross is still made corporately at:

the beginning of Mass
at the end of the Gloria in excelsis
at the Gospel (small sign of the cross)
at the beginning and end of the sermon
at the end of the Creed
at the absolution following the confession of sin
at the Benedictus portion of the Sanctus
at the elevation of the Host and the Chalice at the consecration
at the words "and be filled with every grace and heavenly benediction" during the canon
at the words of invitation before Holy Communion "The Gifts of God for the people of God"
and at the final blessing

The indications to make the sign of the cross are at the appropriate spot in the texts marked with a "+" This is not to mention privately before and after receiving Holy Communion and during people's private thanksgivings after Holy Communion.
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 07:53 PM
Well I think that is one of the things that the world tries to take away from us as Catholics and Orthodox, saying it is odd or not important. BUT IT IS SO IMPORTANT! We must keep the Cross of Christ before us always. Never forgetting the love that God has poured out for us on that Cross.

Don't remember which or who,(these are not exact words of course) but there was a monk that everytime he passed someone on the road he made the Sign of the Cross blessing himself. When the brothers asked him why, he said simply that each person he meets is Jesus.

So in keeping the Sign of the Cross always before us, we never allow Jesus to get out of our site. Also, blessing ourselves in public with the Sign of the Cross is always the rememberance to others around us that Christ is present in the world.
Posted By: Marina Karlovna Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 07:57 PM
Yes, reverence is important. How you are reverent is less important, though it is good to understand the reasons for signs of reverence. Anglicans make the sign of the cross at the beginning of the Gospel canticles (Magnificat, Benedicite, etc.) although I have not seen that practice elsewhere.

A greek Orthodox priest once taught me that it is rather presumptuous to make the sign of the cross when the priest blesses you--in essence blessing yourself when the priest blesses you. But the Western custom is to make the sign when receiving a blessing; it this case it is not considered "blessing oneself."

There seems to be even more variation in this sign than just right-to-left or left-to-right. This should be an interesting discussion.
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by John K
At the Anglo-Catholic parish I currently attend, the sign of the cross is still made corporately at:

the beginning of Mass
at the end of the Gloria in excelsis
at the Gospel (small sign of the cross)
at the beginning and end of the sermon
at the end of the Creed
at the absolution following the confession of sin
at the Benedictus portion of the Sanctus
at the elevation of the Host and the Chalice at the consecration
at the words "and be filled with every grace and heavenly benediction" during the canon
at the words of invitation before Holy Communion "The Gifts of God for the people of God"
and at the final blessing

The indications to make the sign of the cross are at the appropriate spot in the texts marked with a "+" This is not to mention privately before and after receiving Holy Communion and during people's private thanksgivings after Holy Communion.

John,

What is the 'small' Sign of the Cross?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 08:56 PM
Dear Pani,

This is when RC's make a small Sign of the Cross on their foreheads with their thumbs or index fingers - also on their lips and heart before the Gospel is read.

This was possibly the original form of the Sign of the Cross during the early days of fierce imperial Roman persecution of Christians

After the Church arose from the catacombs, the larger form of the Sign was adopted - at least as stated in one article I once read.

Alex
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 09:03 PM
Pani Rose,

I see John K is offline, and I can answer your question. It is the signing, with the thumb backed by the index finger, of the forehead, lips and heart, each with a small sign of the Cross (that is, in the immediate area being touched). At the Gospel the priest or deacon, while signing himself in this way, prays: "May the Lord be + in my mind, and + on my lips, and + in my heart, that I may worthily and fittingly proclaim his Holy Gospel." The Congregation makes the "small" Sign of the Cross with him, but does not repeat the words out loud.

Best,
Michael
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 09:06 PM
Dear Michael,

Is the Little Sign of the Cross not also made with the words, "O God come to my assistance, O Lord make haste to help me" at the beginning of the Hours?

Alex
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 09:48 PM
Alex,

I don't remember. It is used at the very beginning of the Day's Hours, before the Invitatorium, with the words: "Lord, open my lips; and let my cry come unto Thee." (I believe, though, that one only blesses the lips, not the mind and heart also.)

Accompanying the words you mention (used to begin all the other Hours) it may the the Little one or maybe the Big one.

But, somewhere I saw that you are a Benedictine, and I defer to whatever the Benedictines say regarding the traditional liturgy, especially the Hours! biggrin

The Big Sign of the Cross is made, in the West also, at the two Canticles someone mentioned, the Benedictus and the Magnificat, as well as during Compline, the Nunc dimitis.

+Whew!

Best,
Michael

Posted By: Jakub. Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/13/07 11:56 PM
For the Roman Office, the sign of the Cross is made on the lips, Open my lips + O Lord, to praise Your Holy Name...

james
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 02:48 PM
Dear Michael,

Just almost an oblate of the Byzantine tradition. I see in the Benedictine Hours, however, that the little Sign of the Cross is made on the forehead at that versicle and then the large one for the Gloria following it.

In fact, the little Sign of the Cross that persists in the Latin tradition preserves that practice from the very early days of the persecuted Church of Christ!

PAX

Alex
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 03:45 PM
James,

You are absolutely right. When I pray the Hours, I pray them in Latin, and I was doing a quick mental translation, and experienced a "senior moment". Sorry, folks.

Alex,

Thanks for that detail. I'll incorporate it into my practice. I did not know when the practice originated -- in retrospect, it makes a lot of sense!

Thanks to both of you.

Michael
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 04:07 PM
Dear Jakub,

St Benedict also prescribes that versicle with little Sign of the Cross to be said three times when a Brother is assigned to read from a spiritual book out loud when the monastery is taking its meals.

Alex

Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Marina Karlovna
Yes, reverence is important. How you are reverent is less important, though it is good to understand the reasons for signs of reverence. Anglicans make the sign of the cross at the beginning of the Gospel canticles (Magnificat, Benedicite, etc.) although I have not seen that practice elsewhere.

A greek Orthodox priest once taught me that it is rather presumptuous to make the sign of the cross when the priest blesses you--in essence blessing yourself when the priest blesses you. But the Western custom is to make the sign when receiving a blessing; it this case it is not considered "blessing oneself."

There seems to be even more variation in this sign than just right-to-left or left-to-right. This should be an interesting discussion.

Marina, I find that an interesting statement. I would have thought that blessing ourselves when we are being blessed is a visual reception of receiving the blessing. (If that makes any sence)

During the Liturgy when Father blesses, everyone blesses themselves. I don't understand.

I agree, it has been very educational and interesting biggrin
Posted By: Jakub. Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 07:42 PM
Alex,

My gears haven't been engaging correctly for a while...a re-alignment is needed... crazy

james
Posted By: John K Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Michael,

Is the Little Sign of the Cross not also made with the words, "O God come to my assistance, O Lord make haste to help me" at the beginning of the Hours?

Alex

Alex,

At evensong the small sign of the cross is made over the lips when the priest intones: "O Lord, open thou our lips." The regular sign of the cross is then made at "O God, make speed to save us (O God, come to our assistance). It's also made at the start of the Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis, again, at the end of the Apostles Creed and finally at the end of evensong when the priest intones, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with us all evermore." In the parish I attend, that is usually left off of evensong, since 90% of the time, benediction of the Blessed Sacrament follows immediately. Instead, the priest sings "Let us bless the Lord." the response of which is: "Thanks be to God." Then recto tono "May the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen." The sign of the cross accompanies both of these.

John K
Posted By: Matta Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 08:12 PM
Jakub was right earlier.
In the Latin church, the sign of the cross is made over the lips when "O Lord, open my lips, ..." is prayed. This is prayed at the first prayer (from the breviary or the Office) of the day (be that the Office of Readings, or the Office of Morning Prayer). It is not called anything in particular (e.g. "little sign of the cross" or similar).

Thereafter, the sign of the cross is made in the Latin prayers of the hours:
- at the beginning and end of each hour;
- at the beginning of each Gospel canticle (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimittus).

If a sermon is preached at Morning or Evening Prayer or in the Office of Readings, there is no sign of the cross indicated (nor in practice) before or after this sermon.

The sign of the cross in the Latin mass before and after a sermon are a carry-over from an early mis-understanding that the mass was being stopped for a while, while the priest or deacon preached, and then restarted. Liturgy professors have for at least two centuries been trying to break future priests of the habit.
Posted By: John K Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Matta
Jakub was right earlier.
In the Latin church, the sign of the cross is made over the lips when "O Lord, open my lips, ..." is prayed. This is prayed at the first prayer (from the breviary or the Office) of the day (be that the Office of Readings, or the Office of Morning Prayer). It is not called anything in particular (e.g. "little sign of the cross" or similar).

Thereafter, the sign of the cross is made in the Latin prayers of the hours:
- at the beginning and end of each hour;
- at the beginning of each Gospel canticle (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimittus).

If a sermon is preached at Morning or Evening Prayer or in the Office of Readings, there is no sign of the cross indicated (nor in practice) before or after this sermon.

The sign of the cross in the Latin mass before and after a sermon are a carry-over from an early mis-understanding that the mass was being stopped for a while, while the priest or deacon preached, and then restarted. Liturgy professors have for at least two centuries been trying to break future priests of the habit.

In the current Roman Mass, no sign of the cross is called for by the laity except at the beginning, small sign at the Gospel, and at the end. The only extra sign of the cross the priest is called to make is if he uses Eucharistic prayer I, at "let us be filled with every grace and blessing." All others made in the Mass prior to Vatican II have been suppressed.
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/14/07 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by John K
Originally Posted by Matta
Jakub was right earlier.
In the Latin church, the sign of the cross is made over the lips when "O Lord, open my lips, ..." is prayed. This is prayed at the first prayer (from the breviary or the Office) of the day (be that the Office of Readings, or the Office of Morning Prayer). It is not called anything in particular (e.g. "little sign of the cross" or similar).

Thereafter, the sign of the cross is made in the Latin prayers of the hours:
- at the beginning and end of each hour;
- at the beginning of each Gospel canticle (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimittus).

If a sermon is preached at Morning or Evening Prayer or in the Office of Readings, there is no sign of the cross indicated (nor in practice) before or after this sermon.

The sign of the cross in the Latin mass before and after a sermon are a carry-over from an early mis-understanding that the mass was being stopped for a while, while the priest or deacon preached, and then restarted. Liturgy professors have for at least two centuries been trying to break future priests of the habit.

In the current Roman Mass, no sign of the cross is called for by the laity except at the beginning, small sign at the Gospel, and at the end. The only extra sign of the cross the priest is called to make is if he uses Eucharistic prayer I, at "let us be filled with every grace and blessing." All others made in the Mass prior to Vatican II have been suppressed.

John,

Do you think with all the work that Pope Benedict is doing that the use of the Sign of the Cross will become more prevelent in the Latin Mass?
Posted By: John K Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/16/07 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Pani Rose
Originally Posted by John K
Originally Posted by Matta
Jakub was right earlier.
In the Latin church, the sign of the cross is made over the lips when "O Lord, open my lips, ..." is prayed. This is prayed at the first prayer (from the breviary or the Office) of the day (be that the Office of Readings, or the Office of Morning Prayer). It is not called anything in particular (e.g. "little sign of the cross" or similar).

Thereafter, the sign of the cross is made in the Latin prayers of the hours:
- at the beginning and end of each hour;
- at the beginning of each Gospel canticle (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimittus).

If a sermon is preached at Morning or Evening Prayer or in the Office of Readings, there is no sign of the cross indicated (nor in practice) before or after this sermon.

The sign of the cross in the Latin mass before and after a sermon are a carry-over from an early mis-understanding that the mass was being stopped for a while, while the priest or deacon preached, and then restarted. Liturgy professors have for at least two centuries been trying to break future priests of the habit.

In the current Roman Mass, no sign of the cross is called for by the laity except at the beginning, small sign at the Gospel, and at the end. The only extra sign of the cross the priest is called to make is if he uses Eucharistic prayer I, at "let us be filled with every grace and blessing." All others made in the Mass prior to Vatican II have been suppressed.

John,

Do you think with all the work that Pope Benedict is doing that the use of the Sign of the Cross will become more prevelent in the Latin Mass?

Pani Rose-

I am not a liturgical expert, but I believe that for the sign of the cross to be restored into the post Vatican II Mass, there would have to be a new version of the new rite issued. Not sure if the conference of bishops of a particular country can authorize it, or if it would have to come from Rome, to officially sanction and require return of it to the places where it was, in parts retained in the revised liturgy.

John K
Posted By: indigo Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 12:46 AM
A greek Orthodox priest once taught me that it is rather presumptuous to make the sign of the cross when the priest blesses you--in essence blessing yourself when the priest blesses you. But the Western custom is to make the sign when receiving a blessing; it this case it is not considered "blessing oneself."

Marina and Pani, in my church I've been told that if the priest blesses us while holding anything in his hands we are to cross ourselves (not sure why), otherwise some make the same argument the Greek priest makes and simply bow while being blessed. Others always cross themselves while receiving the priest's blessing.

Now that I'm more accustomed to when it is ,for want of a better word, obligatory to make the sign of the cross, I find myself crossing myself whenever I feel moved to do so. When in a Latin Church I cross myself as usual (if it seems that it may be disruptive then I make small crosses)and don't make the smaller crosses.
What do other byzcaths do when in latin churches?(At some point I know I'll be attending latin churches in Spain and/or Latin America and I assume small crosses would be better there.
When do you cross yourself in public?
Do you cross yourself at any point during the Jesus prayer?

Interesting theread, thanks.

Indigo
Posted By: Byzantophile Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 06:45 AM
Quote
At some point I know I'll be attending latin churches in Spain and/or Latin America and I assume small crosses would be better there.
When do you cross yourself in public?

The proper 'Spanish' way to cross yourself is to form a small cross with your thumb and index finger, letting the other three fingers stick out. Make the sign of the cross the Western way (using the middle finger to touch your forehead, etc.) and then kiss the small cross you made with your thumb and index finger.

You can cross yourself any time you pass by a Catholic Church, pass by a camposanto (i.e. cemetery), pass by an outdoor religious statue, pass a holy day or funeral procession, when someone dead is mentioned, or when someone curses in public.

If you make a promise to somone one, say 'te lo juro' (I vow to you) and then make the small cross with thumb and index finger and kiss it, and afterward lift the small cross ever-so-slightly into the air moving it away from your mouth.

When you enter a church, after you have blessed yourself with Holy Water, kneel down and using the small cross (thumb and index finger) trace a small cross on your forehead, then on your upper lip, your lower lip, and then a larger one over your entire mouth end to end while saying: +Por la se�al de la santa cruz, de +nuestros +enemigos +L�branos Se�or Dios nuestro. (By the sign of the Holy Cross, from our enemies, deliver us O Lord!) Then make the full sign of the cross as mentioned above: +En el nombre del Padre y del Hijo y del Esp�ritu Santo. Amen. (In the name of the Father...)

If you want to cross yourself more often during the Mass here are some additional places to the usual ones to do it in both the Modern & Traditional Roman Rite: 1.) At the absolution after the Confiteor (I confess to God Almighty...) (or sometimes the Kyrie eleison in the Modern Rite); 2.) at the last line of the Gloria in excelsis (Glory be to God); 3.) at the last line of the Credo (Nicene Creed); 4.) at the Benedictus (Blessed is he...), which follows the Sanctus (Holy, holy, holy); 5.) at the elevations of the Host and the Chalice.

�Buen viaje!
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 11:07 PM
Dear Byzantophile,

Very nice - thank you for that comprehensive explanation! Barcelona is one of my favourite cities and there are shrines aplenty which one may venerate.

One can even aggregate, wherever needed . . . wink

I think all RC's should just return to their hallowed, ancient traditions (yes, I mean Tridentine) and let Rome know which one you prefer!

Alex
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Byzantophile,

I think all RC's should just return to their hallowed, ancient traditions (yes, I mean Tridentine) and let Rome know which one you prefer!

Alex

Does that include me? wink
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 11:13 PM
Dear Dr Eric,

I would expect you to be first in line!!

Alex
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 11:16 PM
So I shouldn't switch?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 11:31 PM
Switch to what?
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/17/07 11:38 PM
The UGCC, of course. smile
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/18/07 02:50 PM
Well, I think you should.

And if you any lingering doubts, please go and read some of Arthur's posts on the other thread.

After that, just let me know when I can send you an icon of welcome to what will be OUR UGCC! smile

Alex
Posted By: Dr. Henry P. Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/19/07 07:39 PM
Dr. Eric

I am UGCC and attend the same Byzantine Catholic Church in Indianapolis that you do. Bishop Richard (Chicago) will be happy to welcome you to the Eparchy. Let's get an UGCC community started!
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Sign of the Cross and Mass - 12/19/07 08:08 PM
I was observing the beauty of the sign of the cross being made as the priest and deacons begin to incense the Altar and Royal Doors. Does anyone have an idea of when that movement came into being in our worship? It has always amazed be at the beauty in it's simplicity and then there are those clery who can really 'swing' the incesor in a cross. Amazing!
© The Byzantine Forum