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Dear Friends,

If every roadblock to unity were to be removed at the theological.ecclesiological level tomorrow, would Rome and Orthodoxy be ready to unite soon?

Why or why not?

Alex
Dear Alex,

If that were the case, then they should unite, but I don't fool myself into thinking that they would be ready tomorrow. Ready or not, they would be obligated to try.

The only reason to delay or go slow would be if the resulting confusion (on the Latin side, most likely) and possible schisms (on the Orthodox side, most likely) would harm the flock. In this case, one would want a running start of announcing the UPCOMING reunion. Sort of like the announcement of an upcoming wedding.

In Christ,
Andrew
Here is one Latin that is more than ready!
Stephanos I
Slava Isusu Krystu!

Yup, i agree with andrew. Especially those nations with Catholics as majority and Protestatism are among its populance and Orthodoxy is not heard of... the situation would been seen that the catholic church gave way to the protestants and would cause distrust to the church.

this is based upon experiece because most catholics here view the greek orthodox church as a protestant group.

Glory! eumir
I am very new to this but that would be great.
Hope one day happens and I also pray that our Protestant brothers get united some day. This last one I find it harder to happen since there are so many divisions and they have lost so much already.
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Why or why not?
Because the problem today really isn't theological.

The separation is sociopolitical (translation: human jealousy, scorn, dislike, envy, slothfullness, desire for power, and money).

Give me three steps Mister!

I'm headed for my bunker.

John
The question of unity is of two parts: the "head" (doctrine, official dialogues, statements) and the "heart" (the lived experience of the faithful, including memory). The head is often ahead (!) of the heart in most respects, which is to say hierarchs and theologians tend to be in front of the faithful, where they should be as leaders (although shepherds traditionally walk BEHIND their flocks, no?). The heart, however, sometimes lags behind, and in the matter of Orthodox-Catholic unity I fear this is the case. Not on the Catholic side so much as on the Orthodox. This was very clear in the 2001 visits to Greece and (less so) to Ukraine. Thus I think that, in addition to clearing the doctrinal swamp, we need especially to clear, that is, to purify, our memories of all the sins we have committed against one another (sack of Constantinople, etc.) and then, going one step further, begin to create a new memory TOGETHER. We have no common memory of unity but a thousand-year-old memory of division. We need to begin to think anew.

But all this begins at a local level, with individual Catholics and Orthodox seeking reconciliation.
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Originally posted by ad orientam:
Slava Isusu Krystu!

Yup, i agree with andrew. Especially those nations with Catholics as majority and Protestatism are among its populance and Orthodoxy is not heard of... the situation would been seen that the catholic church gave way to the protestants and would cause distrust to the church.

this is based upon experiece because most catholics here view the greek orthodox church as a protestant group.

Glory! eumir
Is that really true?

I have found the opposite: most Roman Catholics regard Orthodox as close cousins or even brothers and sisters.

It is painfully obvious to anyone with an open mind that we agree about 99.99 % of the time.

Protestants are another story entirely.
Protestants have left the Apostolic Faith. Reunion with Rome would require a great deal of humbleness on their part.

Reunion with Orthodoxy requires humbleness on both the part of individual Orthodox Churches and the Vatican. Humbleness is in very short supply at the Vatican.

in the Sacred Heart and the Immaculata,

prostrate before the Chair of St. Peter,

your servant
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Originally posted by Saint Peter:
Protestants have left the Apostolic Faith. Reunion with Rome would require a great deal of humbleness on their part.

Reunion with Orthodoxy requires humbleness on both the part of individual Orthodox Churches and the Vatican. Humbleness is in very short supply at the Vatican.

in the Sacred Heart and the Immaculata,

prostrate before the Chair of St. Peter,

your servant
It's somewhat scarce in some Orthodox circles, too, brother.

We can keep praying for it, though.
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts . . .

I think it would depend on the way those "theological.ecclesiological" roadblocks were removed. If the Orthodox believers thought it had been overcome with a heavy hand by Rome, they would (I believe correctly) oppose it. If, on the other hand, they perceived Rome as having made significant compromises to the theological and ecclesiological roadblocks, I believe the Orthodox faithful would cautiously approve of increased interparticipation.

Please read the "however" statement above as a form of "but" and pass the nuts. Candy isn't good for my teeth.
I'm a SISTER not a brother. lol.
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Originally posted by Saint Peter:
I'm a SISTER not a brother. lol.
Hehehe - well if you will have a male screen name confusions will surely arise
Dear Anhelyna:

Are you strongly suggesting that she should change her screen name to St. Petra? biggrin

AmdG
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Originally posted by Amado Guerrero:
Dear Anhelyna:

Are you strongly suggesting that she should change her screen name to St. Petra? biggrin

AmdG
Amado

Good thought - I know what she is getting at biggrin

Why not St Petra - well is there one ???

Now there is a challenge -- any offers ?

Anhelyna
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Originally posted by Saint Peter:
I'm a SISTER not a brother. lol.
Oops! Sorry, sis!

I'm no prophet, but given your screen name, I predict similar errors in the future.

Petra (as suggested above) might not be a bad alternative.
Dear Linus,

For us here, Catholics are given the basics of their faith from their parish communities. So, the indepth study of the church are not taken and the word 'Orthodox' is foreign to the majority. Only those who could afford to travel the world or have an advance study of the church - so i'm looking at .0000something of Pilipinos.

But the different protestants groups are very common to us. Their communities are largely known to anycorner here, so it would be very obvious that when an Orthodox mission set its foot here Catholics sees them as part of those protestant churches.

This is sad is some parts but has its advantages because to those who know less of theological knowledge makes their faith more simple.

Slava Isusu Krystu!
eumir
Alex:

I've read this thread and been thinking about it very seriously. I believe, after much reflection, that it will take the Holy Spirit to change a lot of hearts simultaneously.

On the other hand, as a Latin Catholic who has observed much of church politics in the course of my life, I've wondered what would happen if and when we got some of the more conservative Orthodox bishops together with some of the liberals in our particular part of the Catholic Church. IMHO, we need our Orthodox brethren for balance, but some of our brethren might find them too tough to take.

I've studied and experienced some of the strictness of the Russian Orthodox Church's life, for example, and found its rigor a breath of fresh (patristic) air. But I wonder how many of my brethren would respond. I have a history of swimming against the current, but this could be a shock for the "go along to get along" group.

The first thought was Eucharistic and Confession practices. Even if we had everyone agree that there would be legitimate difference allowed in the various sui juris churches, I don't believe that our Orthodox brethren would stand for the lax practice found among so many Latins today. And to return the Latin people to the idea of the need for regular confession and a Communion fast--I don't know. (I taught a relgious education class in my parish a number of years ago and the parents told me that there are no longer any requirements for anything. When I went to my pastor, he told me to get used to it because this attitude seemed to him to be almost universal.)

So, to answer your question, even if all the doctrinal problems were overcome, we still might have a tremendous amount of orthopraxy problems to work on.

In Christ,

BOB
Glory to Jesus Christ!

We must BE the same as the Orthodox, and that is a work of centuries. And I fear that, with the crisis in both Churches, we are diverging rather than CONverging. The modern world is the beast that is eating us both alive, even if in different ways.

Arturo
What is the crisis in each and how are they different? I think I know what it is in Catholicism, but am not sure what you mean regarding the Orthodox. Thanks.

In Christ,
Anthony

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Originally posted by Arturo:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

We must BE the same as the Orthodox, and that is a work of centuries. And I fear that, with the crisis in both Churches, we are diverging rather than CONverging. The modern world is the beast that is eating us both alive, even if in different ways.

Arturo
I believe we will not be completely ready for union until:

1. The Orthodox Churches solve their internal schisms and the jurisdictional disagreements... but most of all when the Cold War's Bishops and hierarchs, who actively collaborated with Communism are gone. This is because to them, political things have been over the religious, they're happy as long as they have their status quo respected in their countries. ("The rest of the world doesn't count" Mgr. Bartolomeu Anania Archbishop of Cluj)

2. The Roman Church will also have to solve the current indiscipline of Bishops and priests and disobedience to Church authority, particularly in the developped countries; the rampant liturgical abuses that prevail in too many Roman parishes, political liberalism and secularizing tendencies so common in the modern Bishops.

It would also be desirable if Rome goves full autonomy to Eastern Catholic Churches (their current status is hardly a desirable model for the Orthodox to be in communion with Rome).

If the Orthodox become a more united body I think there will be a chance for the full recognition of sacraments and orders between the two Churches. I'm sure that both Churches will be complementary to each other. The Orthodox would give the example of patriotism and reverent services to Catholics, and Catholics would gove the example of a more universal and united group.
I think...

1) the Orthodox will have to accept the Supreme Authority of the Holy Father.

2) Catholics will have to accept the Supreme Authority of the Holy Father.
Orthodox will never accept the Infallibility of one HIerarch in the Church. Orthodoxy is a Church of the 7 Councils. The Pope as Bishop +Kallistos Ware has stated will be First Among Equals in a reunited Church as it was in the first 1000 years before the Schism.
But you see there is no need for reunion, the Church is already united, the Pope is either infallible or the Catholic Church is a liar.

I am starting to fear that their will be schism until Christ Returns.

Marana tha!
Greetings,

No one hierarch among the Orthodox has the ability to bring his church into union with Rome. As soon as it is tried, the local Orthodox church will break into two or more pieces.

JP II and Bartholomew may be getting along fine, but Bartholomew has no ability to bring on a reunion.

The Latin church must be willing to move on some key issues, the rank and file seem to be unable to recognize that fact.

Once any small portion of the Orthodox world agrees to commune the schismatic heretics of the west (their term, not mine), they themselves will be excommunicated by their brothers elsewhere in Orthodoxy. It would look like the Unia all over again.

In my opinion, only God can put the church back together again. We are incapable of doing so relying upon our own efforts.

Michael
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I think...

1) the Orthodox will have to accept the Supreme Authority of the Holy Father.

2) Catholics will have to accept the Supreme Authority of the Holy Father.
Aren't those two things (supreme authority of the Holy Father and supreme authority of the Holy Fathers) mutually exclusive? biggrin

No, I shouldn't have responded.
Posted By: C4C Re: Is Rome and Orthodoxy really ready to unite? - 12/22/03 09:35 PM
It sounds like most people miss the point or dont want to reconize it.
Posted By: djs Re: Is Rome and Orthodoxy really ready to unite? - 12/22/03 10:07 PM
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Orthodox will never accept the Infallibility of one HIerarch in the Church
Probably. Although, I have yet to hear one give an accurate exposition of what it is that the word actually means. Perhaps it would help the cause of unity if we took a page from Alfred Kahn and just substituted the word "banana". Far less scary.
This is from my daughter at the Franciscan University at Steubenville, Ohio:

When you get right dow to it, there is nothing really un-orthodox from the Catholic perspective about saying that infallibility doesn't quite mean always right, absolutely correct, or even useful to know, or necessary to believe--It means that statements that can readily be discerned as having been made by the Head of the Church to the whole Church can not be wrong and can never contradict anything that has been put before the faithful before.
---------

Is this correct, or should I demand a refund on the child's education?
Once any small portion of the Orthodox world agrees to commune the schismatic heretics of the west (their term, not mine), they themselves will be excommunicated by their brothers elsewhere in Orthodoxy.

That is not so absolute. For years the Russian Orthodox Church allowed full intercommunion with Catholics of both rites in the Soviet Union, and the MP Churches provided sacraments and care to the exiled Catholic faithful.
There is also de facto intercommunion in the Middle East between Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Greek Catholics
Dear Mexican and Brian,

You are both correct, of course.

Once again my tendency to exaggerate for emphasis has proven my undoing!

My motto should be open mouth-insert foot

I still hope that you could see my point in spite of my folly. The limited intercommunion in the Soviet Union in some years and in Syria today are pastorally sensitive, and praiseworthy as far as they go. These situations are notable largely because they are the exception and do not reflect a change in official positions of the respective churches.

If I had been more precise I could have written that the hierarchs involved might chose to share communion in formal unity. In which case I still believe that there would be further fragmentation.

I would be delighted to know an Orthodox priest is willing to allow me the chalice (as rare as that is), but I am fully aware that this does not change his churches' position toward the Catholic communion.

It may be that reunion of all the churches will only happen when the pewpeople want it, or when Christ DEMANDS it!

Your friend in Christ,
Michael
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Originally posted by Coalesco:



It may be that reunion of all the churches will only happen when the pewpeople want it, or when Christ DEMANDS it!

Your friend in Christ,
Michael
AMEN, my brother!!!!!!!!!!!! May God speed the day when we can again share the Holy Mysteries in a spirit of love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Mexican:
Once any small portion of the Orthodox world agrees to commune the schismatic heretics of the west (their term, not mine), they themselves will be excommunicated by their brothers elsewhere in Orthodoxy.

That is not so absolute. For years the Russian Orthodox Church allowed full intercommunion with Catholics of both rites in the Soviet Union, and the MP Churches provided sacraments and care to the exiled Catholic faithful.
And the reverse was true also in the Gulags and elsewhere, where both Latin and Byzantine Catholic clergy rendered spiritual care and administered the sacraments to their fellow Orthodox prisoners of conscience and faith in instances where there were no Orthodox clergy available to do so.*

Many years,

Neil

*I realize there is a distinction to be made here, in that any Catholic stance vis-a-vis intercommunion with the Orthodox has seldom been as stringently enunciated as from the other side and has especially long distinguished necessity and unavailability. However, it is notable in that the strict Orthodox stance would ordinarily prohibit their faithful from being communed or receiving the Mysteries from Catholic clergy, usually under threat of excommunication. No such anathemas were pronounced in these instances.
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Originally posted by Brian:
There is also de facto intercommunion in the Middle East between Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Greek Catholics
And I suspect the same is soon to come, if not already happening in some instances, between the Chaldeans and Assyrians.

Many years,

Neil
On the West Coast USA there are some Antiochian Orthodox parishes that are allowed to give the sacraments (Holy Confession, Holy Communion, Holy Unction) to Eastern Catholics who have no local church to attend. These Eastern Catholics do not feel comfortable attending a novus ordo mass having grown up attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

In addition, people of interfaith (Roman Catholic-Orthodox) marriages are allowed to have both an Orthodox and a Catholic godparent for their children. However, I disagree with this practice because I have seen some of these children get beaten up by Roman Catholic and Orthodox children who do not understand.

We are not ready for reunion yet. It will take an act of the Holy Spirit! When my family joined the Eastern Catholic Church - the Church of my French-Lebanese heritage, most of my Catholic friends said that I had abandoned the Catholic faith and they would not speak to me. My own Roman Catholic Confessor said that I need not come back because I was in schism. Needless to say, I was heartbroken but determined to join the church of my ancestors. Furthermore, a few Roman Catholic Priests at some local parishes here in Los Angeles have been known to call the Eastern Catholics "schizmatics." Even some Maronites call Byzantine Catholics "schizmatics." It's so sad to see this division among Catholics. A lot of education and repentance is needed -- all of us need repentance.

Today, another forum said that I have no right to call myself "Orthodox Catholic" even though my husband and I now belong to the Antiochian Orthodox Church from which the term "Catholic" originated. St. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch!

This labeling has got to stop.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

O Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us and save us.
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Originally posted by Elizabeth Maria:
I have seen some of these children get beaten up by Roman Catholic and Orthodox children who do not understand.
Elizabeth,

I'm having trouble understanding the context in which this might happen ??? Could you elaborate, please?

Many years,

Neil
Maybe not ready for full administrative unity but if the RC can fix the liturgical discipline... and the Orthodox have a less bitter attitude against Rome, sacramental intercommunion under special cases can be reached.

If the Syriac Church of Antioch (Non-Chalcedonian) has accepted intercommunion with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox in certain situations, while the Coptic monophysites refuse.. a certain level of intercommunion can be reached between Catholics and Orthodox because of pastoral situation. It's a matter of fact that in Latin America, Orthodox people have had to ask RC priests for sacarments when there is no church (and this is almost always the case, until modern times).
I still do not understand why a Catholic of any rite would go to a non-Catholic Church when there is a Catholic Church available. If there were no Roman Rite Parish available to me, I wouldn't go to an SSPX Chapel or an Anglican Church just because the ritual was closer to what I'm used to, I'd go to the nearest Eastern Rite Catholic Church.
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Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
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Originally posted by Elizabeth Maria:
[b] I have seen some of these children get beaten up by Roman Catholic and Orthodox children who do not understand.
Elizabeth,

I'm having trouble understanding the context in which this might happen ??? Could you elaborate, please?

Many years,

Neil [/b]
Dear Neil:
In one situation a little boy and his sister were attending the local OCA church. They were baptized Orthodox by a Jesuit priest who had converted to Orthodoxy. The Orthodox priest told the mom that they had dual citizenship: Roman and Orthodox. This priest is recently departed. He was born in Russia and celebrated Divine Liturgy for Catholic nuns until he died. Anyway the little boy told the Orthodox youth that he was a Roman Catholic and they beat him up. When she took him out of the OCA and into a Roman Catholic Parish the confused boy admitted to the Catholic boys that he had been baptized Orthodox. There were some hard feelings there too until the Catholic boys were properly instructed.

With godparents in both churches, the child gets confused because each Sunday he finds himself receiving Communion in a different church -- and the other kids wonder why he is not stable -- there every Sunday. Do you now see where problems can occur?
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Originally posted by Mary Elizabeth:
I still do not understand why a Catholic of any rite would go to a non-Catholic Church when there is a Catholic Church available. If there were no Roman Rite Parish available to me, I wouldn't go to an SSPX Chapel or an Anglican Church just because the ritual was closer to what I'm used to, I'd go to the nearest Eastern Rite Catholic Church.
Dear Mary Elizabeth:

I myself was badly treated by Roman Catholics when I was in the Eastern Catholic Church. They didn't like my ethnicity. They considered me to be anti-American. It was difficult. So some Eastern Catholics would rather go to an Orthodox Church where they can bow to venerate the Icon and make a prostration - where this is not proper within a Roman Catholic Church. We still have a lot of evangelization to do within both Churches.

Hope this helps. Have a Merry Christmas.

Elizabeth Maria
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