Many of you know that I am also on a forum that bills itself as the Catholic-Pages, but I call it the (Roman)Catholic-Pages due to an anti-Eastern bias that seems to hang over it.

Not to say that there aren't many open minded Catholics there, it just seems that the biased group is more vocal.

That being said, let me get to the reason of this topic.

It seems that the two most vocal anti-Eastern people are also big time supporters of the "apparition" at Medjugorje.

Now, is there something decidedly anti-Eastern in the alleged messages of Medjugorje?

Or, is it as I suspect, the mind set of the supporters? That is, these supporters, in their promoting of this alleged apparition, that is not approved and is looked down upon by the bishop of the diocese there, against what the Church has said about it. Is this form of "dissent" so much that they do not see how, when they espouse anti-Eastern bias, that they are also dissenting from Church Teaching.

Just a thought that I think is worthy of discussion.

David

Dear David,

I know Ukie Catholic priests who were great promoters of Medjugorje.

But it could be that some of those who support Medjugorje could not stomach the Church's ruling on it and so went the way of some traditionalist Catholics by declaring that they are more correct than the Church.

I don't know if we can uncover causality here, that if you are a traditionalist Catholic, then you are anti-Eastern Church, or if you disobey the bishops, then that must mean etc.

Perhaps it is just a coincidence and their distaste for things Eastern are the function of their own ignorance.

Medjugorje had announced that the Mother of God would be honoured the most in Orthodox Russia.

One would think that if one is a devotee to the Mother of God in her apparitions, then one would fill in one's ignorance of Orthodoxy in a hurry.

Otherwise, those two individuals seem to be accusing the Mother of God of bad theology.

Alex

David,

I find it strange that supporters of that particualr apparition would be anti-Eastern since the Blessed Virgin is said to have told the children at Medjugorje that the Serbian Orthodox did not need to become Catholic. I think it shows how contradictory extreme Ultramontanes can be.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance,

This reminds me of a conference with a group that related a prayer that some said was a "theological impossibility."

The seer then replied that "maybe the angel never studied theology."

Alex

My understanding is that the apparitions at Medjugorje cannot be believed since they contradict the Catholic faith. According to the reports, the apparition declared that ***ALL*** religions are viewed in the same light by God and that no church can claim to be the only true one. Obviously this message conflicts with both Catholic (And Orthodox) views on the subject and has wisly been condemned by Rome. After all, let us not forget that we cannot just believe in every spirit that claims to be from Heaven. Most certainly we shouldnt believe in something that contradicts the teachings of our own faith as valid.

If you want to read about a good (And IMHO true) apparition of the Holy Mother to ou own Greek Catholic people then go to:

www.carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/limanova.htm [carpatho-rusyn.org]

Robert K.

PS. I would personally stay away from anything regarding the false message of Medjugorje remembering that, since it has been condemned by the Church, then it is not from God and therefore, only evil can come of it and all manner of deceptions.

I don't really know what Serbs think about the apparitions of Medjugorje. Unfortunately the religious phenomenon has been polluted by Croatian nationalism (ultra-catholicicsm and anti-orthodox feelings involved).
I'll try to find something about what Serbs think about that.

Dear Robert K.:

The alleged apparitions of Our Lady in Medjugorje HAS NOT BEEN COMDEMNED by the Church.

What the Commission of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the then Yugoslavia concluded was, and I quote:

"On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations."

The status of Medjugorje has not changed since this 1991 declaration. Rome has allowed this status to remain as it is.

However, a response from the Secretary of the Doctrinal Congregation, Archbishop Bertone, to a French bishop in 1996 precipitated a flurry of reports that Medjugorje was off-limits to Catholics.

In August 1996 the Director of the Holy See's Press Office, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, stated:

You cannot say people cannot go there until it has been proven false. This has not been said, so anyone can go if they want.

...The problem is if you systematically organize pilgrimages, organize them with the bishop and the Church, you are giving a canonical sanction to the facts of Medjugorje. This is different from people going in a group who bring a priest with them in order to go to confession.

...Has the church or the Vatican said no to Catholics visiting Medjugorje? NO. ... The difference, in the terms of canon law, is that an official pilgrimage, organized by the diocese with the bishop, is a way of giving a juridical sanction to the facts; you are saying this is true.

Accordingly, what the Church has forbidden (no condemnation has been issued) are the following:

1. No one holding an office in the Church(bishop, pastor, rector, chaplain or other) may by virtue of that office LEND OFFICIAL SANCTION to activities which tend to assert the supernaturality of Medjugorje, i.e., to contradict the decisions made by competent local authority.

2. No PUBLIC VENERATION of the Blessed Virgin under the title of "Our Lady of Medjugorje" IS ALLOWED since this would suggest the certainty of her appearing there. (The title "Queen of Peace," however, is already part of the patrimony of the Church.)

Do the decisions of the Church amount to an obligation to believe in the intellect that Medjugorje is not supernatural? The answer is no. Because even private revelations approved by Rome bind the faithful to accept them only based upon reasonableness, not upon faith.

Under these guidelines, the following activities are allowed:

1. Catholics may go to Medjugorje. Such pilgrimages may even include priests acting as chaplains, as opposed to officially sponsoring them.

2. The Church has not suppressed discussion of Medjugorje. However, Catholics on both sides of the Medjugorje issue are enjoined to exercise prudence and charity in speaking of others who believe differently.

Medjugorje is not a litmus test of orthodoxy, though every Catholic will have a moral obligation to accept the judgement of Rome, should it ever be rendered.


AmdG

Dear Remie,

Even the Croatian Catholics were divided on it, as it pitted the Franciscans against the bishops.

I think most Orthodox would view it in the same category as other Catholic apparitions that are ultimately used by certain Latin groups to promote a "let's convert the Orthodox" mentality.

Alex

There is a website available and maintained by a devout Roman Catholic regarding Medjugorie. be warned it is not too favorable -

http://www.kronzer.org/news_visittorome.html

A Visit to Rome - January, 2001

Phillip Kronzer, a devout Catholic and relentless foe of those who
seek to pervert the doctrines of the universal Church, recently
traveled to Europe to spread his message about the relgious
fraud and corruption in Medjugorje, Bosnia.

He was received at the Vatican in Rome and Fatima in Portugal
and has been a frequent visitor to the office of Cardinal Ratzinger.

Kronzer has traveled extensively throughout the United States
and Europe in his quest and has been instrumental in exposing
charlatans and scam artists who prey on the unaware.

Internationally, Phillip has brought his mission to Rome,
Medjugorje, Fatima, and London. Kronzer's investigations have
made it no longer safe for him to visit Medjugorje, but
investigators for the Kronzer Foundation maintain a presence
there and reports are received regularly on the abuses
committed.

Phillip Kronzer and the Kronzer Foundation are unique; their
privately funded efforts provide a watchdog function for the
Church. However, the Kronzer Foundation does not just catalog
abuses, it takes action to expose the wicked betrayers of the
Church and provides help to their victims.

Alex,

If you go to one I can't remember which Medjugorje web site it tells of a conflict between the Diocese and Franciscans going way back before the apparitions. They list the Frannie's involved there. One of the Priest listed Fr. Zoran Ostoich Baptized my child when he was assigned to a Croatian Church here in the states.When he was just starting to speak I taught my grandson to say Gospa.

Nicky's Baba

Here youhave a detailed answer from a Serbian Orthodox.


"I will try and answer your question about the alleged appearances of the Virgin
at Medjugorje from an Orthodox point of view.

You are right in saying that the Orthodox Church does not accept these
"apparitions" as true, but it has nothing to do with the fact that they took
place on the territory of neighboring Croatia. There are many devout and good
Roman Catholic believers in Croatia and it has never been the practice of our
Church to condemn anything just because it comes from a Roman Catholic source.

However, in holy Orthodoxy we are taught to discern between spiritual delusion
(or "prelest" as the term is often used by the fathers) which is a trap one can
easily fall into, and reality. Spiritual delusion (which in worldly terms can be
likened to hypnosis, or auto-suggestion)is something very common and also very
dangerous among people who are inexperienced in the faith, yet led by their own
pride and self-sufficiency, believe that somehow God has singled them out for a
special purpose. The evil one, Satan, the father of lies, often succeeds in
trapping such people and tricking them into believing that they have been made
worthy of seeing angels, divine light, the saints, the Holy Virgin, or even the
Lord Himself. It is a well known fact, and the Apostle has written about it,
that the evil one can appear to a person as an angel of light and lead him into
terrible spititual delusion, the consequences of which can be fatal.

We Orthodox believe and know that it is first of all essential for us to
understand and repent for our sins. We are strictly forbidden to imagine
anything while we are praying - we concentrte only on the words of the prayer.
It is a long way from our fallen and sinful nature to see God or His Saints.
True, God and the Saints have appeared to people, but these appearances (and
here we will not call them "apparitions") are very different from the dramatic
occurences staged at Medjugorje.

For us ordinary people the only way to see God is in the deepest chamber of our
heart - through prayer and self contemplation.

As an illustration of how the Orthodox treat the issue of paranormal phenomena,
I would like to try and tell you a short story from the Patericon (a collection
of stories about the life of the early monastics, or the desert fathers): Once a
novice came to Abba Anthony, a well known ascetic and spiritual father of the
3rd century and said: "Abba! Father Gerasimus says he is seeing angels!" Abba
Anthony turned to him with saddness in his eyes and said: "I am not surprised he
is seeing angels. I would be surprised if he were seeing his own sins..."

Finally, may I suggest the following link to you:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/medjugorje.htm
there you will get a much better explanation of the Marian Apparitions at
Medjugorje, Fatima and other places from an Orthodox point of view."

Ana Smiljanic

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amado Guerrero:
[QB]Dear Robert K.:

The alleged apparitions of Our Lady in Medjugorje HAS NOT BEEN COMDEMNED by the Church.

But I still think that it would be impossible for the Church to give credibility to the vision since its message seiously conflicts with Catholic teachings.

Mind you, this message does not just speak of the Orthodox Church as being equal to the Catholic faith, but of all religions as being held in the same light by God. This means that there is really no true religoon and therefore everyone from various Protestant sects to pagan sun worshipers hold favor with the Almighty. This conflicts not only with already established Catholic dogma but also with the statements of other apparitions of the Virgin that have been apporved for veneration by Rome. I personally, can not and will not accept these false and misleading messages which, among other things, promots religious relativism as true revelations from God.

It saddens me that some people, perhaps because they are so spiritualy starved by our doubting world, are willing to unfortunatly believe any supposed vision from on high, even against their own Churches warnings. So, with all that is against this vision, I dont know nor understand how Rome can give its apporval to Medjugorje unles she plans on changing her own teaching regarding herself and her relation to other religions (Which could not be done since, although dotrine can develope, non the less, it cannot contradict itself).

Robert K.

"Mind you, this message does not just speak of the Orthodox Church as being equal to the Catholic faith, but of all religions as being held in the same light by God."

From everything I have ever heard, this cannot be true. Could you please cite where the message says this?

thanks,

Henri

It came to my understanding that Medjugorje supporters tried to discredit Our Lady of Soufanieh in Damascus, involving a seer whose case is seen very favourably by both the Melkite and Orthodox bishops. (Reunion of the Churches is the main message)

If memory serves me, the reason was that Meerna expressed her total obedience and surrender to the Church's judgement and the bishop's in verifying the truth of the supernatural events in question.

In IC XC
Samer

Is there any updated news or reports from Litmanova? The web site at the above link states that the final vision was in 1995.

Is there any news of any pronouncments by Church authorities?

Anyone have info not contained in the web article?

Thank you and best wishes to all!!

Stefan

I think we have to be careful to not place too much emphasis of our own faith in this or that phenomenological event, this apparition, that one, whatever. I'm sure many of us have seen those fixated on spreading the message of this or that apparition. The message we really need to be spreading and following is that of our Lord God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

We have the fullness of Tradition expressed in our Divine Liturgy and liturgical texts, in the theological expositions of the Fathers and Mothers, and through reception of the Holy Mysteries. These are always there as the firm foundation of the Church regardless of any given apparitions, approved or unnapproved. I've seen some Catholics become obsessed with certain apparitions to the point that it becomes the center of their faith. This is not spiritually healthy.

Dear Stefan-Ivan,
It's true, the apparitions ceased at that time. Within a few years, both the visionaries had settled into their own vocations: one joined the Sisters of St. Basil the Great in Presov, the other got married and has a child.

The pilgrimages still draw large numbers, although the Eparchy of Presov has very little to say about it.

Here is another site, in Slovak, with the messages: http://www.fakty.sk/mrosa/litmanova/
(This is a Slovak translation of the messages, because the apparition spoke to the girls in Rusyn.)

Here's another page related to the same magazine, M Rosa: http://mrosa.szm.sk/341998/angl/litmkon.htm
The above is in English.

Dear Lemko;

Thank you very much for the updated information and interesting links.

Dekuju,
Stefan

Dear Friends,

While the Church has reserved judgement in the case of Medjugorje, I think we also need to appreciate the good that this phenomenon has done in the lives of thousands of Christians.

I have met people who have been there and who know, to give one example, pray the Rosary at three different times of the day, every day, fast on bread and water each Wednesday and Friday, attend Church most zealously, read the Scriptures etc.

The change in their lives is itself a miracle. So miracles have occurred through Medjugorje.

Alex

Dear Nicky's Babtsia!

I love your use of "Frannies."

In Western Canada, where there were Redemptorist Missionaries, our people couldn't pronounce the name of their Congregation and so shortened it to "Dentrists."

Alex

Is it just me or at the second link is there a Byzantine priest wearing a Latin mitre standing with Bishop Jan?

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

Lance

You are rite ! at least as rgards the mitre -not sure about the vestments though - could be a Latin Chasuble - or maybe not.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

With all due respect, I think the Latin mitre is on the wrong head...

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

Perhaps he is of the Slavonic Latin Rite?

I have pictures of our bishop at my baptismal reception (it's a good thing we have them, somehow I just can't remember anything about it . . .).

Our bishop then looked just like any Latin bishop purple buttons and all.

What is that about clothes making the man?

Alex

Surely he is a bi-ritual bishop and we did not know it, like Byzantine/Maronite, or Armenian, or Chaldean!


Stefan

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Stefan-Ivan ]

[ 06-08-2002: Message edited by: Stefan-Ivan ]