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Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 05:53 PM
Dear Scripture Scholars all!

Happy Thanksgiving!

How is our Lord descended from King David - through His Mother or St Joseph by adoption, or how?

Your beadsman,

Alex
Posted By: Lawrence Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 09:07 PM
Jesus was a legal descendant of King David through St Joseph. Is this a trick question ?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 09:32 PM
Dear Lawrence,

No - it is a question designed to fill in yet another gap in my lack of knowledge.

If there was a trick to it, I would send you a treat as a reward!

Alex
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 10:28 PM
Dear Alex;

It depends on if you are reading Matthew or Luke. In Matthew the Davidic lineage is through Joseph. In Luke, however, the angel Gabriel comes and delivers the Davidic message in the house of David, but the message is independent of Joseph. It is given to Mary directly and the child, the Davidic promise, is the Son of God Himself.

John, deacon

(I love theological questions!)
Posted By: Lawrence Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 10:45 PM
Alex

I think that Jesus royal lineage i,e as a legal descendant of David, was alot more significant to the people of 1st century Judea, then it is to us today. I'am not saying that it isn't significant to us today, because obviously it fullfills Old Testament prophecies, but I don't think the first thing I would of asked about Jesus, would be "how far back can his ancestry be traced ?
Posted By: akemner Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 10:55 PM
Dear Alex,

I think in one of the apocryphal writings, 'tis the Protoevangelion i think, that contains the story of how St Joseph came to be the spouse of the Mother of God. There it asserts that since Mary was of the House of David, and the Messiah was to come to from that House, then she had to have a spouse also from that House.

In Christ,
Adam
Posted By: Turlough Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/27/03 11:02 PM
Dear Alex,

During my Protestant days, I attended Bible School.
In discussing the Davidic lineage of Christ they pointed out that the two genealogies served two purposes. The one in Luke established his literal descent from David, but from a different line than the recognized royal line. The genealogy in Matthew through the line of Joseph established his right of the royal line, though through adaption.

It was pointed out that in the Old Testament, it was prophesied in Jer. 22:24-30 that the line of Jeconiah (Coniah) was cursed and no one from that line would ever prosper on the throne. Joseph gave Jesus the legal right to the throne, but the physical descent came through a different line of David.

I hope this is helpful.

Bail � Dhia ort,

Terry
Posted By: Lawrence Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 01:18 AM
Petrus

The genealogy in the Gospel of St Luke also is through St Joseph, except in the 3rd chapter, the father of St Joseph is given as Heli, while St Matthew names Jacob. No problem there as two names were not uncommon. St Luke 2:4 also mentions St Joseph as being of the house of David.
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 02:10 AM
I think Alex was bored when he opened this topic.

Mary was also likely of Davidic heritage. According to Numbers 36:6-12, an only daughter had to marry into the family so as to secure her right to inheritance.

Furthermore, I don't think Luke (or Matthew for that matter), was interested in or attempted to provide an accurate lineage. The purpose was to establish a more universal theme. In the case of Luke, Christ's lineage, although legally through the Abrahamic line (akin to Matthew), traces itself back to Adam and to God. Therefore, Christ is the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles (this is the particular Lucan theme). His lineage, like Matthew's, was meant to support the fulfillment of multiple prophecies. The listing of the genealogy was like biblical "footnotes" meant to support his universal theme.

I await further clarification from cantor Joe. I just can't believe he would pass up a topic as juicy as this one.

John
Posted By: RayK Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 06:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

How is our Lord descended from King David - through His Mother or St Joseph by adoption, or how?
Alex
http://www.thegenesisletters.com/Letters/GeneologiesMatthewLuke.htm
(please excuse the typos)


Matthew (trace of the Sons of David)
The genealogy of Jesus given by Matthew, from David to Joseph, is a listing of the royal Davidic bloodline. Those who were specifically selected as the First Prince of the house of David, the 'First Son' among all the genetic sons of David. This first son was recognized as the divinely and providentially chosen successor to the throne. The First Prince was THE Son among all other sons. This Son of David was often the first born in time - but not necessarily so for it would have been the son that was most like the original pattern (meaning the son who was most like the mind and spirit of the father (King) himself. The King himself appointed the Son of David in one of two ways... either directly or through the appointment of the next Queen Mother (who would become Queen when her son asended the throne).

Luke (geneology of Mary decended from Nathan)
The genealogy traced by Luke is a genealogy done in the manner of a family kept records, through Mary Jesus� mother, because Joseph did not genetically contribute, it is the only true genetic genealogy of Jesus possible. It is traced backwards from Jesus through Heli the father of Mary, back to David through his son Nathan. Because it is a simple and natural blood line, it also is not necessarily a listing of first-born sons only and it occasionally winds its way through daughters who are not named directly but rather by the daughter's father's name, for example, it does not name Mary directly, it rather names her by her father Heli (the Jewish custom).

------
Jesus was the legal son of Joseph. Joesph was an appointed Son of David and upon his death appointed Jesus as sucessor to the title Son of David making Jesus the only qualified male for the throne and title King of Israel.

Mary was the only living qualified Queen Mother of Israel and attained that title when the legal authority (Pilate) declared by legal decree that Jesus was the King of Israel (Pilate did it to spite Herod and to send Herod the message that it was within Pilates power and authority to have Herod killed and a new King appointed. Pilate had not considered the possibility of resurrection of Jesus perpetuating that decree. It was a legal decree meant to last only a few hours and then disappear into history with the death of Jesus).


-ray
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 12:46 PM
I will further confound the problem while trying to add clarification to the above post.

You may ask how Heli is Mary's father. Well, it is thought that: Heli=Eli=Joachim. Joseph appears in the Lukan genealogy as being tacked on, due to Jesus' legal adoption by him. (This is only one theory.)

However, a further problem arises. Luke's genealogy shows a lineage through David's son, Nathan instead of through Solomon (Matthew shows Solomon who was the kingly heir to the throne.) Therefore, in Luke's genealogy, the Davidic lineage is not the same as the human lineage of kings. For Luke, the Davidic lineage fulfills the Davidic promise by superceding the human realm.

John

With apologies to Ray. I did not mean to usurp your argument. I just thought these two points needed clarification. I agree with you.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 02:54 PM
Dear Lawrence and Doctor John,

Well, I did want to discuss the issue.

In university, I was involved in campus outreach.

We had a table in the hall-way and distributed Catholic literature.

This very questions was the number one question asked of us by Jewish students.

Father Tannam, our Chaplain, normally handled those queries.

But since there was so much attention given to that particular subject in my experience, I thought I would ask the question.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 02:56 PM
Dear Rayk,

How utterly fascinating!

Lawrence et al. - did you know all that? smile

Alex
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 07:31 PM
I should also mention that another component to the Marian/Davidic connection is through her cousin Elizabeth and her husband Zachariah. Recall, that he was a temple priest with lineage to Aaron the brother of Moses. The implication is that as Mary was related to Elizabeth, they both were also likely members of the same priestly tribe.

John
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 07:44 PM
Interestingly, the Koran also supports the Davidic lineage of Mary.

Even more fascinating, it supports her ever-Virginity and her Immaculate Conception.

John
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 09:31 PM
Dear Doctor John the Deacon,

Yes, indeed - Muslims often attend Marian feasts with the Copts and Ethiopians in Africa, and in other places where there are her miraculous shrines.

And they experience miracles through her intercession as well.

When Our Lady appeared at Zeitoun in Egypt in the late sixties, Muslims rolled out their expensive prayer rugs onto the sandy streets of Cairo and greeted the apparitions very devoutly (at least this is what I've read and heard from one of our parish priests who interviewed people there for a booklet he wrote on the apparitions - I have to be careful about sourcing things, Neil could be reading you know smile ).

And Muhammad did defend the Virgin Mary against the calumnies of the Jews of his day etc.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen once commented on this in a book of his that I read during a retreat with the Trappists of Oka in Quebec.

He said that he believed the Muslim devotion to Mary will eventually lead them to reassess their views of Christian doctrine.

All things are possible with God!

Alex
Posted By: Lawrence Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/28/03 10:01 PM
Apparently I didn't look at this more closely. Interestingly though, the grandfather of St Joseph is given as Matthan in St Matthew, and in St Luke as Matthat, just one letter different, so I wonder if it's the same guy. Here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia has on the subject http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07204b.htm
Posted By: jbosl Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 11/29/03 06:36 AM
Some of the differences in the lineage can also be attributed to the fact that it was not at all uncommon for a man to marry his brother's widow and to beget children with her, but for the child to be given the name of his mother's first husband. It's possible that in some of the records a child is given his (bio) father's name, while in other records is given his legal father's name.

Justin
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 12/01/03 12:27 AM
Alex;

I am now even more fascinated.

Why were the Jewish students first and foremost interested in Christ's Davidic lineage? Can you provide any insight?

John
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 12/01/03 02:32 PM
Dear Doctor John the Deacon,

I think those students basically wanted to test us and also to offer a critique of Christianity's claims to fulfill the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah.

There was a strong "Jews for Jesus" movement there in my day and our Jewish student body was a bit defensive etc.

When I once stopped by the Jews for Jesus table to speak to someone I was taking a course with, a fellow in a yarmulke walking by put his hand on my shoulder and said, "Hey, you shouldn't be standing at this table!"

I told him I wasn't Jewish and he said, "Oh, well that's all right then!"

Alex
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 12/01/03 08:18 PM
Yes, Davidic descent came through both Mary and Joseph.
Stephanos I
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 12/02/03 07:48 PM
Dear Stephanos,

Would either have been valid according to Jewish law?

Alex
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 12/03/03 12:50 AM
Alex,

I think your last question is a very good one. I'm almost certain (from online conversations with a Hasidic acquiantance) that Christ's lineage isn't legit in the eyes of Jewish Law. This is because descent is only traced through the father (so there goes Mary), and that father had to be the biological father of the child, legal adoption or not (so there goes Joseph).

I'm hoping I've made a mistake or there is some way around this. I just haven't found it (actually, I think I did find it out a few months ago, but I've forgotten it).

Logos Teen
Posted By: Deacon John Petrus Re: Christ's Davidic Lineage - 12/03/03 01:33 AM
Dear Teen;

Now I know nothing of Jewish custom, but I thought that one was considered truly Jewish only if his or her mother was Jewish. Perhaps this has no bearing on anything.

John
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