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Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 03:44 PM
Dear Friends,

Same sex marriage will be debated in the legislature today.

What should a person do if his party (for which he works) will officially support it?

In other words, what do I do in this kind of situation?

Alex
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 04:19 PM
When St Thomas More was invited to work in the court of Henry VIII he said that although he did not wish to enter royal service and knew he could not convert the state, he would take the appointment that it might be 'less bad'. More wished many times to resign especially after the Henrican schism looked a certainty and eventually he did. However, it was not until he was condemned that he spoke openly on his disagreement with Henry's actions.

My advice would be to pray the bill fails and to pray and ask St Thomas More for advice on what to do if it does get passed.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 04:48 PM
Dear Myles,

They've already had a voice vote - there is no doubt the bill will pass, as it will federally.

I don't know what to do!

Alex
Posted By: Brian Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 05:04 PM
Well, Alex, I see this as an issue of justice and equality as well as couples entering into a committment to one another, so I guess we see things very differently. But as in all things, look to your conscience. I respect you immensely even when we differ!!!

Peace,
Brian
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 05:13 PM
Dear Brian,

For me, it is a moral issue.

I'm just in a quandry!

Is this something I should go to another job over?

Alex
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 05:44 PM
Alex, this is a difficult area to deal with. The Tennessee legislature, which previously passed a law restricting marriage to opposite sex couples, is now debating a constitutional amendment to prohibit same-sex marriage. Also being considered, is a bill to prevent same-sex couples from adopting children. I don't want to condone homosexuality as a morally acceptable lifestyle, but what is the percentage of the public that is homosexual? Some say 10%, but I have heard sociologists say it's closer to somewhere between 4 and 6%. If this is true, I know there won't be huge numbers of same-sex marriages, since the vast majority of marriages will continue to be heterosexual. Of course, if it ever becomes a federal constitutional issue, the courts or the Congress could override state laws. The whole issue is being cast in this state as a battle between basic civil rights on the one hand, and basic morality on the other. It's a no-win situation, it seems, and I am sure I will be condemned by someone for whatever position I take on the issue.
Posted By: Deacon John Montalvo Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 05:55 PM
Find your comfort in the examples of the Patriach Joseph and the Prophet Daniel, who served pagan monarchs.
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 07:23 PM
Dont resign Alex. If we abandon the imperial court to Eudoxia then she will have more golden mouthed men dragged to the edges of civilisation for simply speaking the Word of God.

In Sweden recently a Protestant pastor was jailed for preaching that homosexuality was sinful. No doubt the only thing that saves Catholic clergy from similar treatment is the fact that so much of the European electorate is culturally Catholic. High profile Bishops like Cardinal Ratzinger can thank their lucky stars that they dont belong to small Bible fellowships like that Swede or else, the way the EU is going, they'd end up being arrested for 'incitement to hatred'. After all Buttglione wasnt allowed to become EU president because he's Roman Catholic.

Freemasonry is everywhere...

Your very prescence in government is a weapon for God against the secularists. So long as there are Apostolic Christians in positions where they 'could make noise' our Church will not be persecuted for its fidelity. However, if they manage to force us to the corners of society then they will be able to start taking liberties. Sweden is an example. Lutheranism degenerated into liberal Protestantism and cultural Christianity long ago. There is no need for the legislators to fear a backlash from believers.

Right now Spain is moving left, France continues her policy of freemasonry, much of Italy lives in active opposition to the Church and Britain...*shakes head* if not for our inherent toryism, God alone can know where we'd be. Yet, even now a divorced woman is marrying the future King. Can Herodias take her husbands brother even as he yet lives and breathes? Is this not wrong?

It is only the fact that we have enough real believers between us that Orthodox and Catholic clergy dont end up in prison too. Do you really think that if the Pope couldnt attract crowds of hundreds of thousands that he'd be allowed to call Homosexuality an evil that is gravely disorded? Or Abortion? Or Premartial sex? Of course not. Its only his charismatic authority, which flows from his Holiness and the respect people have for the Papal chair that saves him from the fate that is befalling many small time Protestant preachers even now.

Stay where you are Alex and convert your co-workers. Because of the very Catholic population of the West the Visigoths and Franks realised they could not go on pushing their Arianism and Paganism on their subjects for the sake of stability. Likewise, we have to be in the world in the high places where the freemasons dont want us, converting everybody we can so that in the end the governments will have to listen to us as the electorate will eventually all be Catholic.

The only weapons we have against bad laws are prayer, prescence and evangelisation.

So Alex stay where you are, recite the Jesus prayer constantly and through your personal holiness attract your co-workers into the Church. Its the only way we can fight back against the freemasonic tide.

Its the way we will win wink

"All these world crises are crises of saints"--St Josemaria Escriva
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 07:54 PM
Myles, I realize secularism is winning in many parts of the world, Western Europe, especially. It does a great deal of damage here, as well. The Western Church is so infected with it, I look to the East for a rebirth and spread of Christianity. But regardless of where that rebirth comes from, it will be most welcome. A good prayer intention, I think
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:04 PM
Dear Friends,

Oh, all right, I won't resign! smile

I suppose we really ARE in a battle with secular forces - I've always known that, but, for me, it has really come home now.

Thank you all for your insightful and helpful remarks!

Alex
Posted By: Annie_SFO Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:06 PM
Alex, you must, of course, do what your own conscience tells you to do. Someone mentioned Thomas More - you are, like him, "the king's good servant, but God's first." If you can continue to serve in good conscience, then do it. Your government is, really, probably much better off for having you there.
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:10 PM
Quote
Myles, I realize secularism is winning in many parts of the world, Western Europe, especially. It does a great deal of damage here, as well. The Western Church is so infected with it, I look to the East for a rebirth and spread of Christianity. But regardless of where that rebirth comes from, it will be most welcome. A good prayer intention, I think
When I say the word 'Catholic' I mean everyone who proffesses they believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church be they East or West. From my understanding of past attempts at reunion Councils i.e. Florence there were no formal acts of apology etc. because the participants shared the view that the schism was within and not without the Church. Moreover, since Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athengorias lifted the Anathema's of 1054 in the 60's my belief that this is the case has only grown. In my humble opinion, the Catholic Church is in improper communion with itself but the lungs are not seperate they're simply working in an improper rhythm. With any luck before too long they'll be breathing at the same pace soon enough.

Obviously I wouldnt expect old Alex to go out converting people to the Latin rite, lol wink
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:12 PM
Dear Myles,

The Tridentine Rite, then just maybe . . . just maybe . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:14 PM
You can always count on Alex to provide us with some comedy. But if you really feel that way big guy then why not: http://www.fssp.com/ biggrin
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Myles,

The Tridentine Rite, then just maybe . . . just maybe . . . wink

Alex
The Tridentine Rite is very beautiful and inspiring. I am glad it isn't dying out as many predicted it would.
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:17 PM
Ad orientam, ad orientam, ad orientam!
And would you believe there are some out there who say I am a traditionalist, me? No way.
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:25 PM
Seriously, I'm not a traditionalist I think the filioque's removal is a legitimate compromise some of the dissidents out there would try to strangle me for that. Indeed, even though I believe the ad orientam posture is without a doubt symbolically the best my feelings on the issue are best expressed by my poetry:

Do I understand when I look upon thy face?
Do I comprehend the slightness of your touch?
The sweetness of your kind embrace?
Do I truly understand?

Can I ever begin to comprehend as chant penetrates my ears?
Do I realise what is happening as you drain away my fears?
As my heart is filled with warmth and my face is glazed by tears?
Do I truly understand?

When the prayers are recited and the world around fades away?
When I offer up what little I am with the world in this way?
When the walls of my heart break down and those of St Aloysius fade away?
Do I truly understand?

As your hands envelop the celebrants and your spirit quickens my heart?
As his mouth rings with your voice and he ceases to play active part?
As you proclaim your own covenant and I sit in entranced start?
Do I truly understand?

As your body is raised aloft before the congregation?
As our heads all bow in reverence amidst this sorrowful celebration?
As we set our sights upon your renewed cross, the hope of every nation?
Do I truly understand?

As we mumble out the words your mercy taught us to speak?
As we shake hands in excitement as proceedings reach their peak?
As we bow before your eternal cross and your clemency we seek?
Do I truly understand?

As your power spins my soul through history and your Mother leads to the place?
As I almost turn to run in shame when I see your bruised and battered face?
As I see the thorns stabbing at your head which won me the crown of grace?
Do I truly understand?

As I hear the crowds mock you and I remember each blasphemy is my own?
As I sink into my own self-pity regretting the contempt to you I have shown?
As you look upon me consolingly in love from your eternal throne?
Do I truly understand?

As your gaze penetrates my very core and draws me out from within?
As you unite yourself to me and lend your nature to this body of sin?
That I may call upon your Father, Comforter and you my closest kin?
Do I truly understand?

As the fruit of the vine touches your lips as this Paschal meal comes to a close?
As you drink the cup of consummation and your body is taken by its final throes?
As they remove you from the cross and Our Lady clutches you in pieta pose?
Do I truly understand?

As the murky waters of time begin to blend again and I know not where I stand?
As the church is gripped by a silent Sabbath rest at the death of God�s right hand?
As we finally witness your resurrection and proclaim it with song at thy command?
Do I truly understand?

So the long as the Roman rite contains the ultimate mystery, which strikes me with wonder each time I share in it. I can live with that even without the priest facing east...
Posted By: LatinTrad Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Myles:
Ad orientam, ad orientam, ad orientam!
oriens
orientis
orienti
orientem
oriente
smile cool wink biggrin
Posted By: LatinTrad Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:45 PM
Dr. Alex--

In answer to your original question, you may want to check out some old moral theology textbook and read on formal and material cooperation--it might be helpful for your peace of mind. God bless and good luck fighting the good fight! I was reading about the whole Canadian situation recently--I truly feel for my Christian brothers and sisters up there who, it looks like, may soon lose their freedom to express religious moral teaching in public. Coercion and even persecution seem to be in the offing. It makes me worry about down here too, since what happens in Canada is usually a crystal ball for what's gonna happen down here, about 15 years later . . .

LatinTrad
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:51 PM
Thats for the spelling correction. Us kids always making mistakes, lol. I can write in English though, rofl!
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/23/05 08:54 PM
Quote
In answer to your original question, you may want to check out some old moral theology textbook and read on formal and material cooperation--it might be helpful for your peace of mind.
Too scholastic for Alex, he's not of the school of Peter Moghila after all biggrin
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 08:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Myles:


In Sweden recently a Protestant pastor was jailed for preaching that homosexuality was sinful.
Actually he appealed his conviction and was acquitted by the Court of Appeal.

And he didn't simply say that homosexuality "sinful", he described homosexuality as "a cancerous tumor on the body of society" and said that "The Word of God teaches us that those who live like this, deserve to die".

Food for thought: If he had used similiar language to describe for example Jews and Judaism, do you think he would have been acquitted?

Quote
After all Buttglione wasnt allowed to become EU president because he's Roman Catholic.
The European Parliament prevented Rocco Buttglione from becoming EU Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security (not EU president).

This Commissioner is among other things responsible for the struggle against discrimination based on gender, race and sexual orientation.

The EU Parliament found Buttglione unfit for this office because of his opinions on these matters, his conservative views on women's equality in marriage, his suggestions to establish camps for asylum seekers to Europe in North Africa, his oppinion that homosexuals should not be included in the laws protecting against discrimination.

The President of the EU Commission, Jos� Manuel Barroso, is a Roman Catholic.
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 11:38 AM
Okie dokie, thanks for clearing that all up OS. Though I insist my point still stands. Stay in your job and make sure we dont get push to the margins Dr Al'. Convert your co-workers and Canada whilst your at it and lets see if we cant re-Christianise society.

PS) Though I dont agree that Homosexuals should die, I think the Protestant pastor had a point about Homosexuality--that is the active practice of homosexual behavior--being a cancer on society. Jews and Judaism dont defy the natural law in their existence. Having sexual relations with members of one's own gender on the other hand does breach natural law, ignores teleology and is objectively wrong. There is a clear distinction and one should not blur that line. I'm not saying that its right to discriminate against Homosexuals but its wrong to equate the statement (key point) 'cancer on society' as equally applicable to Homosexuality and Jews--Othodox Jews would be grossly offended by this comparison also. You can after all have Homosexual Jews. Homosexuality unlike Jewishness is an objective sin that transcends gender, race and culture. It is in violation of the natural law and so to identify it as a cancer on the body of society, though a strong way of presenting one's case, is not semantically errenous. After all a cancer is a growth that should not be there. Likewise, in homosexual relations there is a privation of something that should be there: openess to the procreative power of God. As a consequence certain measures i.e. permitted Gay Marriage, which is what was troubling Dr Alex as the first place, cannot thus be viewed through the lense of equality but must be looked upon through the lense of morality: Homosexuality is wrong. Preventing gays from being married thus is not wrong, ou contraire it is justified. People have the right to their God given freedoms, which can be identified from natural law ethics. However, any attempt to push the boundaries of these freedoms is both illogical and sinful. The problem with many Europeans is that they make the mistake of thinking that discrimination is anything that says somebody is wrong. Its a guilty over reaction to the gross indifference they showed to the violation of the natural law when pertinent to semites over centuries (I can say this confidently because I am afro-carribean and I see in many Europeans I speak to a hesistancy to talk about their history during the slave trade). In my experience, the native European stock as descended from the Teutons and Latins confuse, for instance, Christianity and Nazism, as being ideologies arising from subjectivity. They fail to see that the former is from God and the latter from a man who thought he was God (or at least proclaimed himself 'Father'). Confusing statements such as the one made by the pastor by asking how people would react if he said that about Jews is not a valid way to approach his statement. Jews do not break any natural laws in existing, nor do Homosexuals hence it would be wrong to kill them. However, Homosexuality in practice is a violation of the natural law and thus to call it a cancer on society is completely different from calling Jews and Judaism a cancer on society.
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 12:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Myles:


PS) Though I dont agree that Homosexuals should die, I think the Protestant pastor had a point about Homosexuality--that is the active practice of homosexual behavior--being a cancer on society. Jews and Judaism dont defy the natural law in their existence. Having sexual relations with members of one's own gender on the other hand does breach natural law, ignores teleology and is objectively wrong. There is a clear distinction and one should not blur that line. I'm not saying that its right to discriminate against Homosexuals but its wrong to equate the statement (key point) 'cancer on society' as equally applicable to Homosexuality and Jews--Othodox Jews would be grossly offended by this comparison also. You can after all have Homosexual Jews. Homosexuality unlike Jewishness is an objective sin that transcends gender, race and culture. It is in violation of the natural law and so to identify it as a cancer on the body of society, though a strong way of presenting one's case, is not semantically errenous. After all a cancer is a growth that should not be there. Likewise, in homosexual relations there is a privation of something that should be there: openess to the procreative power of God. As a consequence certain measures i.e. permitted Gay Marriage, which is what was troubling Dr Alex as the first place, cannot thus be viewed through the lense of equality but must be looked upon through the lense of morality: Homosexuality is wrong. Preventing gays from being married thus is not wrong, ou contraire it is justified. People have the right to their God given freedoms, which can be identified from natural law ethics. However, any attempt to push the boundaries of these freedoms is both illogical and sinful. The problem with many Europeans is that they make the mistake of thinking that discrimination is anything that says somebody is wrong. Its a guilty over reaction to the gross indifference they showed to the violation of the natural law when pertinent to semites over centuries (I can say this confidently because I am afro-carribean and I see in many Europeans I speak to a hesistancy to talk about their history during the slave trade). In my experience, the native European stock as descended from the Teutons and Latins confuse, for instance, Christianity and Nazism, as being ideologies arising from subjectivity. They fail to see that the former is from God and the latter from a man who thought he was God (or at least proclaimed himself 'Father'). Confusing statements such as the one made by the pastor by asking how people would react if he said that about Jews is not a valid way to approach his statement. Jews do not break any natural laws in existing, nor do Homosexuals hence it would be wrong to kill them. However, Homosexuality in practice [b]is
a violation of the natural law and thus to call it a cancer on society is completely different from calling Jews and Judaism a cancer on society. [/b]
Well, Swedish law is secular in nature, and therefore yes, it considers Christianity an ideology based on subjectivity. So your reasoning on what is and what is not "breaking natural law" and "objectively sinful" would be totally irrelevant to the Swedish courts.

PS: an intresting note, when I googled to find the pastors sermon, I found it, not on any Christian site, put on the site of a Swedish Neo-Nazi group.

Bear in mind that it is only 50 years ago since the Nazis put both Jews and Homosexuals in camps, using the term "cancerous tumor on society" to describe both groups.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 02:18 PM
Dear Myles,

You are O.K., Big Guy, you are O.K.!

(And I wasn't joking about the Tridentine thingy - my aunt was very big on it and would take us to Tridentine Masses all the time. Some of my best friends are Tridentines! ; smile .

God Save The Queen!

Alex
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 02:58 PM
Quote
Well, Swedish law is secular in nature, and therefore yes, it considers Christianity an ideology based on subjectivity. So your reasoning on what is and what is not "breaking natural law" and "objectively sinful" would be totally irrelevant to the Swedish courts.

PS: an intresting note, when I googled to find the pastors sermon, I found it, not on any Christian site, put on the site of a Swedish Neo-Nazi group.

Bear in mind that it is only 50 years ago since the Nazis put both Jews and Homosexuals in camps, using the term "cancerous tumor on society" to describe both groups.
Ok, ok. Then remove the word 'sin' and my argument still stands based on Aristotelian teleology. Natural law is natural law, its a question of logic not deontology. Just as lawyers use philosophical schools of thought like determinism and liberterianism etc. in court, I will use neo-Thomist Aristotelianism to defend my views in the secular arena.

Moreover, I didnt say what he said was right. I said if you read my post that it was not 'semantically errenous'. The way he said it was not in accordance with the Christian principles of charity. However, if I were not a member of the Catholic Church but a student at the Lyceum under Aristotle I could reason my way to exactly the same conclusion I came to before about his meaning . In a homosexual relationship there is a 'privatio bonni', a privation of the good of procreative possibility. That is objective. There is no subjectivity in maintaining that when two women or two men have intimate relations with one another there's no chance of children being born--children, of course being essential to the survival of our race. Therefore, objectively, in cold logician's terms isolated from a Nietchze inspired emotivism that causes all sorts of defensive reactions. It is an evil. It is against the natural law because it doesnt allow nature to attain, in this instance, the design it evidently has.

In the same way that blindness is an evil because there is a privation of what should be present i.e. sight. Or that death is an evil because there is a privation of what should be present i.e. life. Homosexual relations are evil because there is a privation of the good of procreative potential. Natural law holds, Christian or un-Christian. Thats why its called natural law and not divine law or eternal law, which are other terms Doctor Angelus uses to describe God's will as revealed in other means. I'm not saying Homosexuals themselves are evil I'm saying when they have sex with members of their own gender that is an evil. Just like I wouldn't call myself evil but when I sin I do evil and I must go to Confession and start over.

Another point I'd like to make is: even if the law is secularised, does that make a difference? If God exists whether or not some legislators say he doesnt is irrelevant. The brute fact is God exists. Thats not an opinion. That too can be reasoned and has been reasoned by philosophers from Plato onwards--probably from Socrates too since he also rejected polytheism. Now also if God is God of revealed truth as witnessed in Christ Jesus, which he has given us grace of faith to accept, then the fact that the secularist's framed Europe's laws means nothing because there is a Supreme Legislator to answer to. The fact of the matter is, as Dr Alex has shown, to proffess to believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is to believe that Homosexual marriage, abortion, euthanasia et al. are wrong.

Never have I advocated the murder of any sinner. If I did I've have to nuke the world and kill myself too, since we're all sinners. But just cos lots of people lie, does that mean we should give up trying to stop lying? No lying should be removed from society as should all evils including all the things that characterise what the Holy Father calls 'The Culture of Death'. How to do it? John Paul II's life is an example: suffer for love.

Many people in the Pontiff's position quit when things get that bad. When they can barely control their own bodies, when even breathing is intensely painful. But he refuses. Why? As witness to the love of God. In his life John Paul II has reinforced the truth of the gospel as John the divine told us in his 1st letter: "God is love"

Look beyond the Thomism and see the predicates as St Thomas saw them. God is a perfect act, so perfect, so infinitate that we cant even make positive statements about him. We cant say what God is only what He's not. Yet that God, who needs nothing, out of a perfect act of love reaches out to all, giving Himself to all, so that we can be united to Him in grace. Now this is a question of logic: How can a man be united to God in true mystical sacramental grace and not be happy? The answer is its impossible.

Since God is everything and each man desires everything (the more we have of something the more we want of that thing or something else) if people only hear his voice and unharden their hearts they can have everything. They can say with St Augustine "For thou has made us for thyself, our hearts are restless lest they rest with you".

John Paul II could've caved in by John Paul II suffers to show the world that God's love is more powerful than that. Because God loved Him until death, death on a cross, He wishes to suffer for God to show His love for God in turn ala Colossians 1:24. He is living the teaching of redemptive suffering, which is applicable to all sins not just the one's that characterise the culture of death but the very least venial sins. This is why Jesus could say his burden is easy and his yolk is light because for love people can find the stregnth to do anything, and the love of God once we see it inspires us to love. 1 John 4:19 'we love because God first loved us' The attractive power of God's love presented to us in personal terms through the sacraments particularly in the Eucharist draws us in. It inspires us to make acts of love, to deny ourselves. This is the antidote to the culture of death: God's love.

I mean for me as a young university student I see what the English call 'top totty', there are some beautiful women around this place. But the fact is no matter how beautiful they are, they can never be more beautiful than beauty Himself. I need only turn to look at God in my heart and tempation fades from me. Through meeting with me in prayer and coming to me in sacramental grace, God draws me to Himself. I need not really do anything than let myself be loved and respond with the love that flows from my heart as a response to God.

If we present this teaching to all, then sin will dissapear because all will be united to God loving God and doing as He asks out of love not fear. John's first letter tells us elsewhere perfect fear turns to love. And Jesus himself reminds us that the most important commandment is to love the Lord our God. If we love God all the other commandments are easy to fulfill no matter how difficult they might seem at the start.

When we lived under law it was impossible to fulfil because God was distant. But now God is imminent through grace its barely possible to turn from Him once you've seen His face. Once one has tasted the bread of life, how can one turn away from the wedding feast of the bride and the lamb? It causes pain and suffering and misery. Thus, if we as sinners, as a race of sinners, simply open our hearts to God sin will end. There is no excuse for not keeping the law now because God's grace has been given. I'll repeat the words of Dr Scott Hahn: "the sacraments dont make salvation easy, the sacraments make salvation possible"

If we ourselves go upto the table of the Lord and take the world with us. Then as God commands all sins shall cease. As an Orthodox Christian I would've thought you'd share that vision?
Posted By: Administrator Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 08:17 PM
Myles has given a good, comprehensive reply (especially the part about natural law) and I won�t add to it, except to point out that in a totally secular society there are no absolutes, so there is no reason to protect life (except by common agreement, which can change daily).

Look at some of the problems that we are now dealing with:

-Here in the United States we now have a husband seeking to kill his handicapped wife. Praise the Lord that the judge in the case has again stayed the execution by starvation of Terri Schiavo and ordered new neurological tests. [How can anyone who sees the video of her following movement with her eyes say she should be put to death?]

-In parts of Europe euthanasia of the elderly and infirm is already happening. Every month or two there is a story in the news about a doctor who euthanized a patient to free the bed for a new patient. In the United States a professor at Princeton has stated that parents of new-borns should be allowed a full year to determine if they wish to keep their child (in case they find that the child is handicapped).

-On what basis does a secularist claim that it is necessary for society to help the poor? None, since the true secularist has no absolute basis of judging good and evil (or of even admitting that there is good and evil). A secularist can easily argue that it would be much cheaper for society to simply execute the unwanted poor, or anyone whose care costs society money.

-Special rights for those who engage in homosexual activity? How can you stop here? On what basis does a society then deny similar special rights for those adults who desire to engage in sexual activity with children or outlaw polygamy?

The website www.orthodoxytoday.org [orthodoxytoday.org] has a very good 3 part article by Dennis Prager entitled: �Better Answers: The Case for Christian Values�:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/PragerValues1.shtml
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/PragerValues2.shtml
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/PragerValues3.shtml

For the record, if the Protestant pastor was jailed for advocating that homosexuals should be �deserve to die� (as Scandinavian wrote) then that pastor is wrong (and should be censured by his denomination). [There is a difference between just discrimination and unjust discrimnation.] But on what basis does a secular society tell him that he may not hold such a belief or speak about it? How can a secularist argue that any particular individual or group has an absolute right to life? In a secular society such rights are granted at the convenience of the majority.

This Protestant pastor is at least partly correct, since homosexual activity and the other moral ills of our society are each "a cancerous tumor on the body of society". In a news article in the International Herald Tribune on Pope John Paul II�s new book, �the pope intended to show the pervasiveness of evil, �even in liberal political systems.� Some chapters of the book reflect the Vatican's fear that rampant relativism and secularism are causing the decay of Christian values in Europe and beyond. The pope wonders in print whether such �pressures that he says have been put on the European Parliament to legalize same-sex marriage amount to �part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man.�" Very well stated. Eis polla eti, Despota!
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 09:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
-Special rights for those who engage in homosexual activity? How can you stop here? On what basis does a society then deny similar special rights for those adults who desire to engage in sexual activity with children or outlaw polygamy?
Administrator,

I consider you to be an intelligent person, so I will not waste time and insult your intelligence by attemting to explain the obvious difference between homosexuality and phedophilia. I believe you already are aware of the difference, despite of your offensive rhetoric.
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 09:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
-Special rights for those who engage in homosexual activity? How can you stop here? On what basis does a society then deny similar special rights for those adults who desire to engage in sexual activity with children or outlaw polygamy?
"Special rights for Christians? How can you stop there? On what basis does a society then deny similar rights for Muslims who believe God commands them to kill infidels?"
Posted By: Theist Gal Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 10:44 PM
Scandinavian, I agree with your point, that most homosexuals are not pedophiles, nor are most pedophiles homosexual.

But that really is beside the point in the issue of whether or not to legalize same-sex marriage. Contrary to what its advocates claim, the government wouldn't be taking any rights away by refusing to make same-sex marriages legal, because there currently IS no such right to take away. They would be granting a right that has not existed before.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that. wink )
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 10:58 PM
I think many of the news media reports of sex scandals among priests often used the term, "pedophilia," which was inaccurate. Quite a few of the sex scandals seemed to involve teenage boys of varying ages, which would seem to make it more a case of homosexuality than pedophilia. The terms are not interchangeable and certainly don't mean the same things.
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/24/05 11:38 PM
I believe emotivism is clouding people's judgements over the issue at hand. So in the name of Aristotle I ask you all to be reasonable. The issue is not whether homosexuals are child molesters etc. Its over whether we can equate certain attitudes to homosexuality as we can to other things. That is, its whether not permitting same-sex marriage is discrimination. The following summary is apt enough:

Quote
But that really is beside the point in the issue of whether or not to legalize same-sex marriage. Contrary to what its advocates claim, the government wouldn't be taking any rights away by refusing to make same-sex marriages legal, because there currently IS no such right to take away. They would be granting a right that has not existed before.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that. )
However, theist gal if your final statement insinuates that homosexual marriage is not wrong then I'd have to disagree. As a philosopher I cant agree it violates natural law and as a Catholic theologian because it breaks divine law. So I'm going to confirm thats what you meant rather than accuse you of maintaing this position?
Posted By: Theist Gal Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 12:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Myles:
(Not that there's anything wrong with that. )
However, theist gal if your final statement insinuates that homosexual marriage is not wrong then I'd have to disagree. As a philosopher I cant agree it violates natural law and as a Catholic theologian because it breaks divine law. So I'm going to confirm thats what you meant rather than accuse you of maintaing this position? [/QUOTE]

Actually, I just added that line because it's from the classic "Seinfeld" episode, in which George and Jerry are wrongfully accused of being gay, and they keep screaming about how they're NOT gay, then they stop, realize they're not being politically correct, and say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"

So I like to throw that line into the conversation whenever possible, because I'm a plaigiarist at heart. (not that there's anything wrong with that. wink )
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 12:29 AM
Myles, I have no personal stake in this. I have gotten so old that NEITHER sex has made me a decent offer in years. wink biggrin The Legislature of the State of Tennessee is debating laws banning gay couples from adopting children. I can't vote on that, but do have access to my state representative at church on Sundays, so he definitely will know what I think. The Legislature is also proposing a state constitutional amendment to outlaw same-sex marriage and prevent the state from recognizing as valid any same-sex marriages contracted in any other state. Since it's an amendment, I will get to vote on that along with all other Tennesseans. Other than that, I don't think I can do much about it in any other state. I think some of the more liberal states may actually allow same-sex marriage, but I am also expecting that federal legislation will eventually pass outlawing it nationwide.
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 03:45 AM
Dear Theist Gal,

If one were to go back into history, they would find that homosexuality was rare when it was not acceptable. To give an example: When reading the authorized biography of Lawrence of Arabia, his best friend was asked if Lawrence was a homosexual. Now his friend admitted that he himself was and that he would have loved to have had Lawrence as a partner. He said that one had to be aware of the 'times'. Homosexuality was so frowned upon, that the mere idea would have repulsed Lawrence.

Now taking this into account, we have to realize that there are certain ages when young people are very vulnerable to suggestions...so the more politically correct homosexuality becomes, the larger the percentage of homosexuals.

Zenovia
Posted By: LatinTrad Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Myles:
I believe emotivism is clouding people's judgements over the issue at hand.
Alasdair MacIntyre is smiling somewhere . . . wink

Myles, you da man! cool
Posted By: Administrator Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:25 AM
Quote
Scandinavian wrote:
I consider you to be an intelligent person, so I will not waste time and insult your intelligence by attemting to explain the obvious difference between homosexuality and phedophilia. I believe you already are aware of the difference, despite of your offensive rhetoric.
Scandinavian,

I made no comparison between the two. Basing itself on the Holy Scriptures the Church has always taught that these and other similar disorders are �intrinsically disordered� and �contrary to the natural law� and cannot be approved under any circumstances. Those with such conditions do not choose them and life �for most of them is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.� Those with such conditions are called to refrain from sexuality activity and �unite to the sacrifice of the Lord�s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.� We are to pray for those with these disorders, invite them to carry their cross next to us, and then help them to carry their cross as best we can.

But this is not the point I made and I ask that you reread what I have written.

A secular society has no moral absolutes. Right and wrong are determined by consensus of the society, not by a moral law given by God or the natural law. In such a secular society it is impossible to state that homosexual activity is morally acceptable while at the same time stating that polygamy or pedophilia (or anything else) is morally unacceptable. In a secular society one can start with a premise that society would be better off without poor people and then develop logic to justify killing them. Without a foundation in the natural law there is nothing to say that such a thing is wrong. I hope you can see the point I am making.

Quote
Scandinavian wrote:
"Special rights for Christians? How can you stop there? On what basis does a society then deny similar rights for Muslims who believe God commands them to kill infidels?"
Exactly. On what basis does a secular society tell a Muslim citizen that he has no right to kill his wife? There is no basis for such a secular society to do so, except general consensus. Laws prohibiting such things are merely vestiges of the time when that secular society based its morality on the natural law. Without the moral absolutes found in the natural law there is nothing wrong with murder. In parts of Europe the infirm are now routinely �euthanized�. Here in America we have a man who wishes to murder his severely handicapped wife. On what basis can a society kill its infirm and unborn and then turn to a Muslim and tell him he cannot kill his wife or an infidel?

Unless a society bases its morality upon a morality given by God or the natural law there is no basis upon which to judge anything moral or immoral. In secular societies morality is a matter of consensus.

Admin
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 10:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:

Unless a society bases its morality upon a morality given by God or the natural law there is no basis upon which to judge anything moral or immoral. In secular societies morality is a matter of consensus. [/QB]
I'm sorry, but you need to face reality, society IS secular! Society is multlicultural with many different religions coexisting! In modern society true Christians are a minority, so to attemt to use arguments like "It's God's Law!" in a political debate is impossible!

What is your solution exactly, to replace democracy with theocracy?
Posted By: Myles Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 12:33 PM
Quote
I'm sorry, but you need to face reality, society IS secular! Society is multlicultural with many different religions coexisting! In modern society true Christians are a minority, so to attemt to use arguments like "It's God's Law!" in a political debate is impossible!

What is your solution exactly, to replace democracy with theocracy?
Yes indeed to appeal to Divine revelation in a political debate is practically impossible. However, to appeal to natural law theory based on Aristotelian logic (as I have done repeatedly throughout this debate) is not. Indeed, its just as valid as using the political philosophies of men like John Stuart Mill. Secularism is an ideology in itself and it is not unbiased inspite of what its proponents may genuinely think. There is no such thing as an unbiased government if there were no laws would be made because there is always someone who looses out.

When people frame laws for the criminal justice system they often use Aristotelian logic to determine the correct course of action. For instance, take the charges of manslaughter and murder. According to the Aristotelian Scholastics a free act is one arising from nature that where the subject has knowledge of its telos. Using this aspect of scholastic philosophy the legislators of countries across the globe have created a system of criminal law that says if a lawyer can prove the subject was not aware of where his action would lead i.e. in the case where someone dies in a fight where someone hits them so hard they crack their head. Then that person should be charged not with murder but with manslaughter.

Since the logic of the scholastics has been so important in helping legislators make laws such as this throughout history, laws that I stress often make the difference between capital punishment, life in prison and when exactly one can appeal for release. I can see no reason why, as I've already done in this thread, philosophers today cannot use Aristotelian teleogy to help determine how we should make other laws i.e. over gay marriage. I mean western political philosophy was born with the Athenians, why not appeal to the Lyceum for guidance in our legislative process?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 02:08 PM
Dear Administrator and Myles,

The vote passed yesterday and the matter is now law.

One thing that complicates the issue is that the government sought the support of the Catholic Church here for the bill . . . and received it because the bill protects the rights of the Church against lawsuits by those who are turned away from having same sex marriage rites performed on church property etc.

There are a lot of faxes and e-mails coming in on this matter, my employer is against it, but the leader of our party is for it.

And the Catholic church supports the legislation as well.

I guess everything now is academic.\

And, Myles, I'm a great venerator of St Peter Mohyla and love studying about his time period.

Unfortunately, the Latin canonical legalism, verbose and complex as it is, didn't prevent the Church up here from putting its best foot forward . . .

Alex
Posted By: Administrator Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:28 PM
Quote
Scandinavian wrote:
I'm sorry, but you need to face reality, society IS secular! Society is multlicultural with many different religions coexisting! In modern society true Christians are a minority, so to attemt to use arguments like "It's God's Law!" in a political debate is impossible!

What is your solution exactly, to replace democracy with theocracy?
Scandinavian,

Thanks for your post.

I do not understand your comment about me needing to face reality. I never suggested that today�s Western society was anything but secular. I merely presented the main problems with a secular society, which is that without an unchanging standard of right and wrong there is no way to determine morality from immorality, except by general consensus (which is very fluid and changes over time). I also never suggested or appealed to an argument �like �It�s God�s Law!��

I also do not understand your suggested solution of replacing democracy with theocracy. While the United States is fast becoming a secular society our style of government has never been a theocracy, even though it is rooted in the common elements of Judeo-Christian morality (namely, the Ten Commandments as they have developed through English Common Law). I don�t really see any support for an argument that the European democracies were really theocracies in past times when there was an automatic respect for Judeo-Christian values. Ideally I would hope that over time we could convince enough people to agree to keep (or readopt) this standard, but I know that it is unlikely as our societies progressively abandon God.

The way forward right now is to appeal to the natural law. Myles has given good arguments for using the natural law as a standard in a multi-cultural society and I won�t repeat it. I think that it would be useful for the argument for the natural law to be placed on the table for discussion in various countries. My guess is that, as secular societies deteriorate and the right to life is denied to more groups of people, some in those societies will begin to question the wisdom of an �anything goes� morality. At such a time maybe they will consider adopting the natural law as their standard of determining morality.

Ultimately, of course, the answer is to convert the whole world to Christ.

And, for those of us who are Christians, we must realize that our allegiance is to Christ and that our morality is from Him and not from the state. As we live in secular societies we may be required to tolerate all types of immorality. But we cannot allow such societal immorality to become our own moral standard or we risk losing our salvation.

I don�t have all the answers. But something tells me that Europe will be forced to address some of these difficult questions before America does. A few months back I read an article by a European who was worried about the possibility of Europe adopting the Sharia (Islamic Law). The demographics he spoke to suggested that, with the low birth rate among the traditional European peoples and the high immigration and birth rates among Muslims, in a few generations some of the countries will be predominately Muslim. A secular society that determines its morality on the basis of consensus will have no foundation from which to oppose the adoption of the Sharia since in a predominately Muslim nation the consensus will be to adopt the Islamic Law.

Admin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:31 PM
Dear Administrator,

Whether you face reality or not, I don't know.

Just please never change the way you already ARE! smile smile

Alex
Posted By: Administrator Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:45 PM
Alex,

I am sorry for the result of the vote. I don�t know all the details but it appears that the Church has opted for its own protection rather than to stand for what is morally right.

As Christians we may need to tolerate the immorality of our societies. But we can never accept such things. We must always embrace Christ and adhere to the morality that He taught us. We must pray for our societies, that they may come to Christ.

I do not work in the same environment that you do, so I am not faced with such questions on a regular basis. I do, however, work with people who are openly pro-abortion as well as one who is involved in a same sex relationship. Both are politically active in supporting those evils. For the most part I find that such people mean well but just don�t know any better. That, or they do know better and are just lying to themselves about what is true. The best thing to do is to treat each individual as if he or she were Christ. Doing that will soften hearts and will lead to all kinds of opportunities to politely and quietly witness Christ. I generally don�t discuss religious / social / moral issues at work. But when office conversations demand my participation I will generally indicate that I am a Christian and state what Christ taught about the situation (without quoting Scripture) and that as a Christian I accept what He taught. That may sound simplistic but I seem to occasionally convert someone without really trying.

Admin
Posted By: Theist Gal Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Zenovia:
Dear Theist Gal,

If one were to go back into history, they would find that homosexuality was rare when it was not acceptable. To give an example: When reading the authorized biography of Lawrence of Arabia, his best friend was asked if Lawrence was a homosexual. Now his friend admitted that he himself was and that he would have loved to have had Lawrence as a partner. He said that one had to be aware of the 'times'. Homosexuality was so frowned upon, that the mere idea would have repulsed Lawrence.

Now taking this into account, we have to realize that there are certain ages when young people are very vulnerable to suggestions...so the more politically correct homosexuality becomes, the larger the percentage of homosexuals.

Zenovia
Okay, would everyone please stop assuming that I'm in favor of same-sex marriage, just because I recycled a joke from "Seinfeld"? Gee whillikers!! :rolleyes:
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:53 PM
Dear Dolly,

I also recycle jokes from "Seinfeld."

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 04:57 PM
Dear Administrator,

Yes, the participation of the Catholic church in these issues throws me off completely at times, like right now.

You could have imagined my chagrin when we had a delegation come in to ask that the Legislature drop the Lord's Prayer as part of our opening exercises - and there was a representative from the Catholic Church there as well . . .

(I asked the person privately if he had the full approval of the authorities etc. and he confirmed he had).

This is kind of like the current campaign we monarchists are waging against the action of the national government that recently removed the Queen's name from the diplomatic credentials of our ambassadors (leaving only that of the Governor General).

It's kind of hard to fight this sort of thing when Her Majesty herself has already approved it!

(How you put up with the attitudes of some posters here is beyond me. I'm happy you hardly ever get upset with me . . . nowadays . . .) wink

Alex
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Same Sex Marriage and a job - 02/25/05 05:30 PM
Dolly, my sense of humor has kept me in trouble most of my life...not that there's anything wrong with that. wink biggrin
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