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Posted By: Carson Daniel bin Laden tape - 10/29/04 08:39 PM
The bin Laden tape seems authentic enough. I guess his survival shows how tough it is to deal with someone who is being protected by so many people. It also may indicate the worldview differences between Islam and the rest of the world. What can be done?

BTW This is not intended to be a post about the upcoming elections. No one knows if Mr. Kerry would do better or worse. My interest is in trying to determine what the world is going to be like if radical Islam cannot be curbed.

Dan L
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 09:00 PM
Hi,

This tape is very interesting, not only because it shows Bin Laden well and alive, but for many other reasons:

1. He speaks in secular terms, in modern Arabic. It is clear he intends this tape to be for a broader audience.

2. He states terms of peace. Of course this could be read in many different ways: Is he afraid? Is he offering surrender in echange for something? Is he sincere in this offer? Regarless of all of this, I think the positions of those who deem Bin Laden as an obsessed lunatic are severely undermined. The tape doesn't show one, and doesn't seem the act of one.

3. The terms of peace are reasonable: You leave us alone, we leave you alone. When asked by the U.S. President about what they wanted "us" to do, the Alien in Independence Day answered "Die!". On many ocassions, I've heard people thinkin of Bin Laden in fairly the same terms. The tape seems to contradict these. Bin Laden is not asking the Americans to "Die!", just to leave the Middle East alone.

4. The terms of peace are positive and entirely in the hands of the recipient of the message. The United States is asked to do something the United States can do.

Was this tape the "October surprise" this year? Well, I do not know if it was "the", but it certainly was "one", and one we need to see with hope.

But not much, as I think the American people in general is still more interested in revenge than in constructive efforts for world peace based in justice for all, even over particular interests, even over those of the Americans.

Shalom,
Memo.
Posted By: Gary K Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 09:36 PM
Kerry his missed the real meaning of Friday's Bin Laden videotape. Bin Laden has been reduced to sending a video tape with wild threats. Bush has destroyed much of his base of power. If Kerry is elected he will employ the same Clinton people who let him escape three times. Bush is winning the war agaisnt terrorism.
Posted By: djs Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 09:52 PM
The man responsible for unprecedented terror and mass murder our soil is - three years, hundreds of billions, and another thousand US lives later - flipping us the bird before our election. It would be nice to have a President who was resolute in the desire to get him. And who got the job done rather than let him get away after this crime.
Posted By: Jennifer Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 09:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gary K:
Kerry his missed the real meaning of Friday's Bin Laden videotape. Bin Laden has been reduced to sending a video tape with wild threats. Bush has destroyed much of his base of power. If Kerry is elected he will employ the same Clinton people who let him escape three times. Bush is winning the war agaisnt terrorism.
LOL!
Posted By: djs Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 10:06 PM
Bush wanted him dead or alive.
Then he got away.
Then Bush dismissed his concern over whether bin Laden was dead or alive.
Then denied this dismissal.

All the while this criminal is still at large.
These are facts, from the mouth of Bush himself.

I have btw read Cheney's charge - :rolleyes: he'll say anything to get elected.
Posted By: Gary K Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 10:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
The man responsible for unprecedented terror and mass murder our soil is - three years, hundreds of billions, and another thousand US lives later - flipping us the bird before our election. It would be nice to have a President who was resolute, and effective, in the desire to get him.
I agree. President Bush is the only candiate who is resolute. Kerry is on all sides of every issue (except abortion). Did you know Kerry took a poll to determine what he should say about the tape?
Posted By: djs Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 10:10 PM
Hey Gary K:
How did I respond to you at 5:06, before your post at 5:08? Either this forum has really brought my rehetorical skills to an amazing level, or there is something very peculiar in this software. eek
Posted By: Gary K Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 10:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Hey Gary K:
How did I respond to you, before your post?
Either this forum has really brought my rehetorical skills to an amazing level, or there is something very peculiar in this software. eek
I deleted my post by accident when trying to add the part about Kerry waffling on everything except abortion. How do you add the little smileys?
Posted By: djs Re: bin Laden tape - 11/01/04 10:17 PM
Well, I thought I had seen it, but I really liked the possibility that I saw it before you posted it.

Smileys: point and click left of the UBB code (quote etc).
Posted By: byzanTN Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 12:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Hey Gary K:
How did I respond to you at 5:06, before your post at 5:08? Either this forum has really brought my rehetorical skills to an amazing level, or there is something very peculiar in this software. eek
New calendar vs. Julian? wink
Posted By: Alice Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 12:11 AM
Dear All,

Maybe it is just me...but Bin Laden's Tape to the American people would have been the stuff of Jame's Bond Movies not too many years ago!! frown

A few years ago I read a rambling 'manifesto' of his to President Bill Clinton, who he also hated (he really is an 'equal opportunity' hater of U.S. Presidents), and in a very patronizing tone, calling him by his first name, he said, (and I will NEVER forget this) "the difference between your boys and mine is that yours don't want to die, and mine DO". frown

Alice
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 12:19 AM
Hi,

Quote
"the difference between your boys and mine is that yours don't want to die, and mine DO".
True, and very wrong.

What do you have to do to somebody to have him or her willing to die, literally, just to have the opportunity to hurt you.

Doesn't that sound very, very wrong?

Shouldn't both sides take a look and see what went wrong?

Shalom,
Memo.
Posted By: Menkalinan Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 09:48 PM
Ah, but you see, no one wants to know what's wrong! There is a book out by a man named Corey Robin, called Fear. He states that the government is using the war on terror to allow our liberties to be curbed.

But get this---it isn't the government who is doing the curbing. Instead, it is Government working in cooperation with PRIVATE COMPANIES to curb our liberties with fear.

Companies owned privately can do things the gov. can't. He states examples where women were kept from using the bathroom, and finally had to use toilet papaer, kotex and maxi pads, and paper towels to soak up their urine, because they would be suspended or fired if they were to use the restroom at any other time than their Break time. Many of the women got infections due to this. And that's only one example. He has many more, such as one where the current administration ordered called the shipping of toys from Asia an issue of national security, and told dock workers, who were threatening to strike, that he would send in federal soldiers to crush the strike on behalf of the shipping companies. There is so much information, analyzed in such a new way, I can't wait to actually read the book, and not just watch his remarks on Book-TV.

Now, considering Bin Laden, I have only one solution.

Leave Israel.

It is the entire reason Bin Laden hates, or at least the only plausible reason, is our support of Israel. Arab sentiment on this is much stronger than Bush would have us believe. 75% of Al Qaeda leaders have been brought to justice.

Great. Now, just have to deal with the fact that Al Qaeda isn't a centrally defined group, but more like a confederation of radical Islamist cells in different countries. Recruitment, by all accounts, is up for such terrorist organizations.
They are training new leaders as we kill them.

What is wrong? It is to me, the fact that people define themselves as an 'American', or 'Patriot', or by any label. Everything one does effects someone else, and vice versa. We must not ask how it effects us, but how it effects everyone. The world is now smaller than it has ever been, yet it hasn't ever been this divided.

We must pray for God's will, not ours. I can't say for sure, but I don't think God would consider anyone better or more pertinent because of their country of origin or birth, or where one holds citizenship.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 10:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hi,

Quote
"the difference between your boys and mine is that yours don't want to die, and mine DO".
True, and very wrong.

What do you have to do to somebody to have him or her willing to die, literally, just to have the opportunity to hurt you.

Doesn't that sound very, very wrong?

Shouldn't both sides take a look and see what went wrong?

Shalom,
Memo.
What's wrong is radical Islam itself. When that is changed one way or the other the problem will be solved. As one Islamic leader said recently, "Not all Muslims are terrorists but one has to admit all terrorists are Muslim." Islam has az 1400 year record of terror. They have overwhelmed nation upon nation and the only thing that has ever stopped them is enough counter force to drive them back. It would make no difference to the radicals whether we left them alone or not they would still come after us.

One solution though which is intriging: Take our hands off of Israel and let them clean house on the radicals.

Here's the challenge: If all Christians were to go to the Middle East and South Asia and were able to find all of the Muslim leaders who want to kill people and we all offered the forgiveness of Christ to them for their violent ways then their behavior might be curbed. Short of that I think we must keep up the pressure.

For those who disagree with this policy I suggest you put your families in harms way. Please, don't volunteer mine.

Dan L
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 10:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Menkalinan:
Ah, but you see, no one wants to know what's wrong! There is a book out by a man named Corey Robin, called Fear. He states that the government is using the war on terror to allow our liberties to be curbed.

But get this---it isn't the government who is doing the curbing. Instead, it is Government working in cooperation with PRIVATE COMPANIES to curb our liberties with fear.

Companies owned privately can do things the gov. can't. He states examples where women were kept from using the bathroom, and finally had to use toilet papaer, kotex and maxi pads, and paper towels to soak up their urine, because they would be suspended or fired if they were to use the restroom at any other time than their Break time. Many of the women got infections due to this. And that's only one example. He has many more, such as one where the current administration ordered called the shipping of toys from Asia an issue of national security, and told dock workers, who were threatening to strike, that he would send in federal soldiers to crush the strike on behalf of the shipping companies. There is so much information, analyzed in such a new way, I can't wait to actually read the book, and not just watch his remarks on Book-TV.

Now, considering Bin Laden, I have only one solution.

Leave Israel.

It is the entire reason Bin Laden hates, or at least the only plausible reason, is our support of Israel. Arab sentiment on this is much stronger than Bush would have us believe. 75% of Al Qaeda leaders have been brought to justice.

Great. Now, just have to deal with the fact that Al Qaeda isn't a centrally defined group, but more like a confederation of radical Islamist cells in different countries. Recruitment, by all accounts, is up for such terrorist organizations.
They are training new leaders as we kill them.

What is wrong? It is to me, the fact that people define themselves as an 'American', or 'Patriot', or by any label. Everything one does effects someone else, and vice versa. We must not ask how it effects us, but how it effects everyone. The world is now smaller than it has ever been, yet it hasn't ever been this divided.

We must pray for God's will, not ours. I can't say for sure, but I don't think God would consider anyone better or more pertinent because of their country of origin or birth, or where one holds citizenship.
If you really believe the only reason Al Qaeda attacks us is because of Israel then I've got a great bridge to sell you. Is our support for Israel the reason Muslim armies swept through North Africa, South Asia, and southern Europe from 630 until the sixteenth century? Is our support for Israel the reason that some of these people chop the heads off of innocents? Is our support of Israel the reason a bunch of thugs attacked a school in Russia and butchered a bunch of children?

Dan L
Posted By: Jennifer Re: bin Laden tape - 11/02/04 11:21 PM
Yes, but these things cannot be blamed solely on radical Islam. Radical Islam just like fundamentalist Christianity does not come to exist in a vacuum.

The Middle East is home to some of the worst, most brutal governments in the world. Many of these governments backed by the US, I might add. The economies are in dreadful shape.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: bin Laden tape - 11/03/04 08:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
If you really believe the only reason Al Qaeda attacks us is because of Israel then I've got a great bridge to sell you.
Dan,

I think you already offered me the bridge, an offer I accepted. So, you're going to have to come up with an alternative reward for Menkalinan.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: bin Laden tape - 11/03/04 05:32 PM
Hi,

Quote
What's wrong is radical Islam itself.
No, because the issue at hand is not that you hate them (if true, this is), but rather, the other way around:

They hate us, and it MUST be because we did something that at least they view as supremely wrong. What was it? Are we still doing it?

Radical Islam might be wrong. Not my problem, as I am not a radical muslim.

And it is not that we are not muslim, as I already pointed out, there are many other non-muslim countries in the world, and hate is not directed towards them as agressively as it is towards the United States.

No, it must be something else. What was it? Are we still doing it?

Things to ponder.

As long as we remain unwilling to accept our share of guilt, and there is still a muslim standing, we will not be at peace.

I'd rather not consider genocide, but then again, I did not win the election yesterday.

Shalom,
Memo.
Posted By: Jim Re: bin Laden tape - 11/03/04 07:30 PM
I'm inclined to think that our forces in Iraq are being viewed by more and more people in the middle east as an army of occupation, not an army of liberation. If so, the implications are not good. As long as we can turn over power to a local authority, then exit, we should be able to eventually gain back some respect from the international community of nations. Besides, going it alone has become awfully expensive.

As for our support of Israel, there's no good answer for bin Laden. We have staunchly supported Israel since its creation, so bin Laden will probably continue with his cause. Start saving more money. We're all gonna need it.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/03/04 08:16 PM
memo,

We sent Hitler packing, but his influence cotinues in many South Asian countries. Stalin was sent packing but his influence continues. America was not wrong in either of these instances. America supports Israel. There is nothing wrong with that. It might be,as I've written before, that if we withdrew from Israel it might give the Mousad the opportunity it needs to rid the world of radical Islam. That might be a good idea.

America is only wrong in one area as I see it. We commit shirk. Americans worship many many things besides God. But even if we were able to rid ourselves of all shirk we would still be condemned as infidels and idolators by radical Islam. We worship God who came in the flesh and dwelt among among who is the Son of God. This is shirk to Islam. The Qur'an is clear "God has no son." So we would still be dar el harb to Islam.

Again, we can pretend that this is not so. We can pretend ourselves to death. But that won't change the fact that in their eyes Christians are to be subjugated. That they have done for 1400 years and that they will continue to do until all peoples are dar el Islam.

Dan L
Posted By: iconophile Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 02:49 AM
Check out the new book "Imperial Hubris" by an anonymous member of the intelligence community; he makes the point that the Islamists don't hate us "because we are free" [the Bush doctrine] nor because they are crazy nor because they love death but because of our policies , which they perceive as anti-Islamic. He also makes the point that American policy has been hopelessly bungled in Afghanistan, in spite of numerous Americans with extensive experience in that country.
All in all, a very interesting and informative read.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 07:19 PM
Hi,

Quote
Again, we can pretend that this is not so. We can pretend ourselves to death. But that won't change the fact that in their eyes Christians are to be subjugated.
We can also pretend that America is commiting absolutely no wrong against them, we can also pretend that to death. But that won't change the fact that in their eyes, Americans are agressive Anti-Islamists.

So, what's next? Perhaps America will just pretend they won this war, as they did with Vietnam? Declare victory and get out?

Shalom,
Memo.
Posted By: moncobyz Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 08:00 PM
Islam in the Netherlands: Another Political Murder

The radical Islamic view of "live and let live" is a contradiction in terms. I suggest the following read... from a European source no less. And please don't miss the unbelievable irony of the very last sentence. Gee, isn't this something those nasty American conservatives are being accused of also!?!

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3353677
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 08:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hi,

Quote
Again, we can pretend that this is not so. We can pretend ourselves to death. But that won't change the fact that in their eyes Christians are to be subjugated.
We can also pretend that America is commiting absolutely no wrong against them, we can also pretend that to death. But that won't change the fact that in their eyes, Americans are agressive Anti-Islamists.

So, what's next? Perhaps America will just pretend they won this war, as they did with Vietnam? Declare victory and get out?

Shalom,
Memo.
Of course Islam considers us their enemy. They consider us the enemy even if we never responded to anything they did to us. As far as they are concerned the entire world belongs to them. This is not prejudice. This is what is believed. We are dar el harb. As it is written we are people against whom Islam is at war. Islam is the one and only true religion. All others exist according to Shariah through the patience and mercy of Allah as demonstrated by the ocassions when Islam does not attack us. It is a figment of the imagination of those who care little for themselves that there can ever be peace between Islam and the rest of the world. There will always be radicals in Islam who take the Qur'an, Hadith, and Shariah quite literally.

Ask yourself this: What did the school children in Beslan do to the Islamicists to cause the attack upon them in the name of Allah. Believe what you will. Put your family in harms way if you wish. But men are supposed to protect their families not endanger them. I want nothing to do with Islamic rule in this country.

Dan L
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 09:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:

I want nothing to do with Islamic rule in this country.
...and Muslims don't want American Christians to rule in their countries.


Christian
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 09:35 PM
Posted By: Gary K Re: bin Laden tape - 11/04/04 09:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by OrthodoxScandinavian:

Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[b]I want nothing to do with Islamic rule in this country.
...and Muslims don't want American Christians to rule in their countries.

Christian [/b]
True, but they do want freedom and democracy. The people of Afganastan stayed in line to vote even thought there were bombs going off nearby and terrorists shooting at them. America and her coalition partners are doing the right thing. If these people really loved the totalitarian regimes they live under they would not be moving to America and the West as fast as they can escape.
Posted By: Menkalinan Re: bin Laden tape - 11/05/04 03:31 AM
Ahh, History! My best subject.

No, the idea that Islam was an expansionist religion was the driving force of the Islam nations in the early middle ages. And, I might add, they were quite a bit more tolerant than ANY christian nation at the time.

Also, these "terrorists"--I hate that word, they are todays equivalent of "rebels" in the united states, willing to fight and die for their cause. Alas, more is needed for a rebellion to succeed, as was our case as well with the french, and since no developed nation will back them, they have grown ever more desperate--are merely doing what they can.

They have no state to back them, they have no resources, no way of getting the world to notice this travesty of human rights in the middle east. They have no army to defend them. What else should they do?

Should they practice "civil disobedience" to a nation that doesn't even let them function as any class citizen, and so could ignore them all together? No one will listen.

Besides, America has no room for spreading democracy and freedom when it supressed a freely elected government in Nicaragua, and Chile, and put bloodthirsty despots in their places. And, I might add, that America is still providing sanctuary for Kissinger, wanted for war crimes.

We need to help the Middle East in their efforts for rebuilding, but in much the same way the French helped us. But again, the Muslims need a George Washington figure to unify them.

All that's really left to wonder is if he will arrive in time, or if he will arrive at all.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: bin Laden tape - 11/05/04 11:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by moncobyz:
Islam in the Netherlands: Another Political Murder

The radical Islamic view of "live and let live" is a contradiction in terms. I suggest the following read... from a European source no less. http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3353677
Moncobyz,

It doesn't justify the murder, but let's put a bit of perspective on it

Quote
The victim was an outspoken and often offensive critic of Islam, who once called radical Islamist immigrants �a fifth column of goatf******�. His killer was a jallaba-clad Muslim immigrant and associate of a radical group that Dutch intelligence has been watching. Police arrested eight more Islamist suspects the next day. The justice minister said the murder stemmed from �radical Islamic beliefs�. Mr Van Gogh was killed a few months after the screening on television of his film �Submission�. The film, based on a screenplay by a Dutch parliamentarian, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, features a Muslim woman in a see-through burqa telling a story of abuse within her marriage; she has text from the Koran condoning family violence written on to her naked body.
Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/05/04 01:16 PM
Menkalinan,

Perhaps you are their LaFayette? Perhaps the courageous bin Ladin is their George Washington?

Where do you teach history?

Dan L
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/05/04 01:42 PM
To equate Islam with American Revolutionaries can work on some levels. They both fought for a cause in which they believed.

1. American Presidents did claim an entire continent as their own even before they had set foot on it.

Islam claims the entire world as their own. Many are willing to kill to claim the entire world and many others cheer them on.

2. Our American anscestors did subjugate other peoples, blacks and Native Americans, as they dominated them.

Islam has done this with all other groups they've dominated for fourteen hundred years.

I guess we are pikers by comparison.

While it is true that the Byzantine Empire could be very nasty with their Dhimmi the Muslims learned from them and did an even better job of it.

Now let's bring it up to date. If the Libyans hadn't changed their ways and if we had sent troops of occupation into Libya after they did then I would think the West is no better than Islam. But we didn't and the Libyans did.

If the Afghanistanis had fought against us as ferociously as they did against the USSR and if they had not flocked to the polls but had rejected the elections out of hand then I would say that we were wrong and those who see bin Ladin as a righteous freedom fighter were right. But that is not what happened.

If Saddam Hussein had not murdered his own people and their had not been people within Iraq who were willing to step forward and form a new government I would think we were wrong and bin Ladin and his defenders were correct. However, that is not what happened. Hussein was a butcherer and courageous people have stepped forward to form a new Iraq.

If Muslims either accepted Christ as God or were willing to have their own religion without trying to kill us then I would say they are no danger. Since they reject Christ as God and are willing to kill us then they are a danger.

There must be some reason that the Wahhabists who really control Saudi Arabia have not found a way to make life better for all Muslims with all of the oil revenue pouring into that country but instead use their resources to kill people. I wonder what it is?

Dan L
Posted By: Menkalinan Re: bin Laden tape - 11/08/04 03:14 PM
I believe you misunderstand me. I am in no way defending terrorist actions or condoning their mindset. I oppose such things as utterly as I believe that Christ is my God.

If the reasons for invading Iraq were his butchering of innocent people, then why didn't we invade in the 80s when he perpetrated these crimes? As I recall, the U.S. backed Saddam because he was fighting Iran at the time.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: bin Laden tape - 11/08/04 03:20 PM
Menk,

Thanks for the clarification. I have the same questions. There's alot of wickedness and self interest in politics. Why didn't we wipe out the government of Khartoum 20 years ago? Why didn't we intervene in Rwanda over a decade ago?

We are a generous people in many ways, but we are also a selfish people. I enjoy our modern conveniences but recognize that they exist in part not only upon our ingenuity but upon the backs of many people outside our country. At the same time I recognize that our form of government if exported could be helpful to people mired in poverty and that we give away many many things to poorer countries.

M. Scott Peck said, "Life is difficult" and so it is.

Dan L
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