www.byzcath.org
Posted By: RomanRedneck Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 01:49 PM
I joined Ancestry.com this morning and found that part of my family tree has been well documented and researched. I am ashamed to say that my 11th Great Grandfather was none other than Oliver Cromwell. Sigh. I suppose this means I am also related to Thomas Cromwell...that sleezeball and enemy of St. Thomas More. I always suspected there were skeletons in my family closet. LOL

On the other hand, through another line, Geoffrey Chaucer is my 13th Great Grandfather. So that's not so bad.

Um...I hesitate to mention this but here goes...Hillary Clinton is my 6th cousin once removed. WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Jason
Posted By: Epiphanius Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 03:17 PM
Quote
Ah, we're all cousins,
___That's what I believe,
'Cause we're all children
___Of Adam and Eve. (Elvis Presley)
Jason,

A few words of wisdom, offered as consolation. cool

Originally Posted by RomanRedneck
I am ashamed to say that my 11th Great Grandfather was none other than Oliver Cromwell ... On the other hand, through another line, Geoffrey Chaucer is my 13th Great Grandfather. So that's not so bad.
Sorry to nit-pick, but that doesn't sound right. 11 generations back to Cromwell, OK, but 13 back to Chaucer? I know you said it's through another line, but we're talking about a difference of 400+ years here, and only 2 generations? confused


Peace,
Deacon Richard
Posted By: Nathan Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 03:45 PM
I'm only related to farmers and vikings, though I think my brother found out one of my ancestors fought for Napoleon.
Posted By: Robert K Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 03:53 PM
You have to wonder about some of those websites like that ...
Posted By: Penthaetria Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 03:56 PM
The boys and I were listening to Prince Caspian (C.S. Lewis) in the car just this morning:

Quote
Caspian: I was wishing that I came of a more honourable lineage.

Aslan: You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve, and that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth. Be content.
Posted By: RomanRedneck Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 05:05 PM
Deacon Richard,

I looked again. I misread the first time. Chaucer is my 18th, not 13th, Great grandfather.

Jason
Posted By: Edmac Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 06:07 PM
Ancestry is a very respectable genealogical website, but depends
on submissions from members who may or may not be competent
and/or honest. This is not meant to throw cold water on Jason's
discoveries; they may very well be accurate. There's going to
be a lot more information available about families with famous
or prominent members than there will be about others.

On the other hand, do some math and estimate how many ancestors
you had living a thousand years ago. Figure how many "generations" you will attribute to a century, 3 or 4.
Then start counting backwards ten centuries, squaring the number
of ancestors for each generation. The final number won't fit
on the ordinary calculator. Consider that many family lines
were extinguished over the centuries by war, plague, famine,
natural disasters and childlessness. This suggests to me
that (1) we are descended from the same couples many times
over, (2) that we are probably all descended from some
famous or notorious people and (3) that we are all much more
closely related by blood than we imagine.

If Jason wants to take the time and spend the money,
perhaps he would want to trying proving that he is not
descended from the Cromwells. I hope that would not cancel
out Chaucer as well! I think 18 generations might very well
do for Chaucer.

Sorry. Amateur genealogists do ramble on.

Penthaitria's quote is one of my favorite lines from the
Narnia books.

Edmac
Posted By: Epiphanius Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Edmac
... we are descended from the same couples many times over ...
Edmac,

That helps to explain some of the discrepancies between the genealogies of Christ given by Matthew and Luke! wink


Peace,
Deacon Richard
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 06:30 PM
Don't feel too bad, my great grandmother's brother, "Uncle Ted" ran for Governor of Indiana on the Communist Party Ticket...

...in the 1930s.

Lord have mercy on Uncle Ted!
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 08:00 PM
I heard the other day on the news that Vice President Dick Cheney and Barrack Obama are cousins. Obama said every family has it's black sheep. Bush, Obama, & Cheney biggrin I guess that means politics runs in the family.

I googled it... biggrin biggrin biggrin

From NBC's Adam Verdugo
In an interview with MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell this afternoon, Lynne Cheney revealed that while researching the Cheney family tree for her new book "Blue Skies, No Fences," she discovered that the Vice President Cheney and Barack Obama are related -- albeit distantly. According to Mrs. Cheney, the two politicians are eighth cousins.

*** Update *** The Obama campaign emails NBC/NJ's Aswini Anburajan that the Chicago Sun-Times actually wrote about this relation back in September, although the article notes that Obama and Cheney are 11th cousins -- not 8th cousins.

*** Update II *** Our mistake: The Sun-Times says that Obama and George Bush are 11th cousins, and Obama and Cheney are ninth cousins once removed. It seems we're all related....
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/16/414460.aspx
Posted By: Deacon John Montalvo Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by RomanRedneck
I joined Ancestry.com this morning and found that part of my family tree has been well documented and researched. I am ashamed to say that my 11th Great Grandfather was none other than Oliver Cromwell. Sigh. I suppose this means I am also related to Thomas Cromwell...that sleezeball and enemy of St. Thomas More. I always suspected there were skeletons in my family closet. LOL

On the other hand, through another line, Geoffrey Chaucer is my 13th Great Grandfather. So that's not so bad.

Um...I hesitate to mention this but here goes...Hillary Clinton is my 6th cousin once removed. WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Jason

Jason-

I'm afraid there is someone who trumps your "shame". Activity in the family tree included well-known accounts of incest, prostitution, adultery, and murder.

Can anyone guess?
Posted By: Sophia Wannabe Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 08:14 PM
Would you perhaps be referring to Tamar & Judah, Rahab and David & Bathsheba?
Posted By: monksilouan Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 09:42 PM
Dear Roman Redneck: You mention shame at being related to Oliver Cromwell. The only shame is not living a life worthy of Jesus Christ and His Gospel. I am a direct descendant of the Carmelite Martyr Blessed Hilary Januszewski who died in Dauchau (http://www.carmelites.org.au/januszewski.htm) and my life certainly does not demonstrate that I have martyr's blood in my veins. That is to my shame!
Silouan, Mary's monk
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Sophia Wannabe
Would you perhaps be referring to Tamar & Judah, Rahab and David & Bathsheba?

That would be my guess.

Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
Originally Posted by RomanRedneck
I joined Ancestry.com this morning and found that part of my family tree has been well documented and researched. I am ashamed to say that my 11th Great Grandfather was none other than Oliver Cromwell. Sigh. I suppose this means I am also related to Thomas Cromwell...that sleezeball and enemy of St. Thomas More. I always suspected there were skeletons in my family closet. LOL

On the other hand, through another line, Geoffrey Chaucer is my 13th Great Grandfather. So that's not so bad.

Um...I hesitate to mention this but here goes...Hillary Clinton is my 6th cousin once removed. WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Jason

Jason-

I'm afraid there is someone who trumps your "shame". Activity in the family tree included well-known accounts of incest, prostitution, adultery, and murder.

Can anyone guess?

You forgot idolatry and sorcery.
Posted By: RomanRedneck Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 10:21 PM
For those who took me perhaps a little too seriously...

I really am not ashamed to be the descendant of these people. I just thought it would make a fun joke to mention a few of my notorious ancestors and relatives.

Jason
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 10:36 PM
Well, the entire reason part of my Irish ancestors immigrated to America was because my great-great-great-grandfather (a Catholic) wasn't paying his taxes. The priest came to talk with him about it and, apparently having an Irish temper, my grandfather took a pitchfork and stabbed the priest to death. Thusly immigrating to America (and eventually becoming Baptists!). wink

Alexis
Posted By: EdHash Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by RomanRedneck
I am ashamed to say that my 11th Great Grandfather was none other than Oliver Cromwell. Sigh. I suppose this means I am also related to Thomas Cromwell...that sleezeball and enemy of St. Thomas More. I always suspected there were skeletons in my family closet. LOL

Jason,

Be careful! Unless there is documentation to support such lineage you might be a victim of *Everyone is related to ...* syndrome. Long before on-line genealogy websites, there were snake oil salesman making profits from people with money who were more than willing to pay for a family tree with lots of *important* or *famous* people. Lineages were altered in slick ways to make *connections* to famous people and their descendents. If rich people thought they were only going to get farmers, peasants or laborers as ancestors, they would have put out of business a lot of family tree sculptors.

Take a deep breath and begin with one generation at a time and get excellent documentation. Separate *documented* ancestors from *alleged* ancestors supported with ninth degree lineages (his tree is based on her tree and her tree is based on their tree ...) Many family trees are houses of cards ready to fall when one false connection is pulled from underneath.

Ed
(descendent of Julius Caesar and Constantine the Great)
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 11:45 PM
Dublin used to have a character called, of all things, "Pope" O'Mahony. He was dirt broke in Ireland, but moved to Boston where he became moderately well off by running a radio program - a phone-in - providing "information" on the exalted Irish ancestors of anyone who rang in. He made it all up as he went along, of course, but his patter was so good that he had no trouble finding sponsors!

Then there was the village seanachie in rural Ireland during the Roots craze. He had become a bit tired of American tourists, especially when they failed to grasp that talking is dry work and they were supposed to wet his whistle. So when the school-teacher from Hackensack was searching for her ancestry, he said, quite simply: "Ah, mum, you come from a distinguished line of military people and Church supporters. Your granny was a Reverend Mother in the Loretto Sisters, and your Granda was an officer in the Black and Tans!"

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Deacon John Montalvo Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 11:46 PM
Quote
I'm afraid there is someone who trumps your "shame". Activity in the family tree included well-known accounts of incest, prostitution, adultery, and murder. Can anyone guess?

Originally Posted by Sophia Wannabe
Would you perhaps be referring to Tamar & Judah, Rahab and David & Bathsheba?

My question was not clear...??? I should have posted, "Can anyone guess the descedant?"


The "Someone" to whom I allude is Our Lord, Jesus Christ. The persons you mention are among the Lord's ancestors, and were infamously known for the described activity.
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/13/07 11:47 PM
I'm related to Adam, so I guess everything boils down to being my fault!

Alexandr
Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 12:36 AM
Don't take this the wrong way Jason, but I wonder about the authenticity of the information on the website.
Another note, do the math.
4 grandparents
8 great grandparents
16 great great grandparents
32 great great great grandparents

Perhaps mathematically at some point we are all related.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 01:50 AM
Shame in the family tree? I long ago concluded that parts of my family have no shame. wink
Posted By: RomanRedneck Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy.
Don't take this the wrong way Jason, but I wonder about the authenticity of the information on the website.
Another note, do the math.
4 grandparents
8 great grandparents
16 great great grandparents
32 great great great grandparents

Perhaps mathematically at some point we are all related.

Matt,

If you are suggesting that I am related to you....

I'm sorry. I don't eat Pyrohy. wink

Jason
Posted By: theophan Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 02:22 AM
JASON:

Every family has skeletons in its closet. It's more important what kind of man you are and how you live your life than any ancestors. That's why I have always tried to give a young person a break when he has come to me for his apprenticeship. Everyone deserves a chance to show what he is, not what his father, his brother, his uncle, or his ancestors are or were.

Don't be discouraged. In my family tree there have been people who have had all kinds of physical and mental problems--the whole gamut. But none of that has yet affected me--thanks be to God. I've also got few people in my extended family who practice the Faith, but I've insisted that this will be a major portion of my life and witness. It makes many uncomfotable enough that we see each other rarely. As my father, may he rest in peace, used to say, "The only thing that matters is that you come to the end of your life, face Christ, and say to Him taht you have never compromised His teaching." Sound and profound advice.

BOB
Posted By: EdHash Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 02:22 AM
Us rednecks DO eat pierogi. We call it Mac-and-Cheese. But we do things differently; we fill the cheese instead of the other way around.

Ed
Posted By: dochawk Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
I'm afraid there is someone who trumps your "shame". Activity in the family tree included well-known accounts of incest, prostitution, adultery, and murder.

Can anyone guess?

Bill Clinton committed incest?

smile

Ouch!

Just kidding!

hawk
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/14/07 11:44 PM
To borrow something from C. S. Lewis, we are all descended from Adam and Eve, which is shame enough for an Emperor, and pride enough for a beggar.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: soxfan59 Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/15/07 12:30 AM
Years ago, I also discovered my family tree on the internet, through a link in the social security death record database. While my mother's "people" come from Poland, my father had always been very vague about our ethnic heritage, speaking of a mix of English, Irish, Danish, Norwegian and German. I could never get him to sort it out for me, and then discovered that the family line is very clear. I can trace my lineage on my father's side back to the early 1800s -- all in the hills of Eastern Tennessee. Wow. I am descendant from pure blood hillbillies.
Posted By: StAnthony Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/15/07 04:58 AM
There is an old Irish saw that stated: "For 300 pounds you can find out who your ancestors were, and for 300,000 pounds you can cover it up again.
Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/15/07 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by StAnthony
There is an old Irish saw that stated: "For 300 pounds you can find out who your ancestors were, and for 300,000 pounds you can cover it up again.


Indeed. Why do the Irish always seem to have the best sayings, or is it such that everyone attributes all sayings to the Irish.
Posted By: A Simple Sinner Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/15/07 05:52 AM
For the life of me I can't recall which King Edward it was... BUT, I remember reading that one King E of England sired 8 children who lived into adulthood and, in turn, had children-a-plenty who made many babies, who made many babies... etc.

By virtue of his healthy labido, the Queen's exceptional child-bearing abilities and the robust health of his progeny, some 80%+ of Britons can call this king of some 8 centruries ago an ancestor, in turn making the island a nation of cousins. (Insert hill-billy joke here)

Now with me, every single one of my forebearers had delightful singing voices, were great with money, made exceptional career choices and could dance like Fred Astaire...

It had to come to a screaching halt at some point!
Posted By: dochawk Re: Shame in the Family Tree - 12/16/07 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy.
Indeed. Why do the Irish always seem to have the best sayings, or is it such that everyone attributes all sayings to the Irish.

That could come from either the best beer or the best whiskey (both of which are oft cited as the reason Ireland has never waged a war of aggression [internal wars which were really just excuses to steal cattle and have a good donnybrook excepted, of course!]).

A.M.D.G.

hawk
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