Recently I was at a event and a man showed me his doctoral thesis on how Slovakians, Western Ukrainians and Rusyns are really Polish.
He went back centuries into history and he found that linguistically, sociologically and all the various forms of Literature and art existing in Slovakia and Western Ukraine today are from the Poles. Over time, the Polish language split into dialects that we call Rusyn, Slovakian, Ukrainian, but none-the-less, they are all Polish in origin. So he said that Poland should regain the land that is now Slovakia, Western Ukraine, and perhaps a part of Romania. You should have seen the way he traced all the various cultural aspects of the Slovaks, Ukrainians and Rusyns back to Polish origin. Even the various burial customs point back to Polish origin. He also said in his thesis that once Poland regains these lands they will become the equivalents to states or provinces and what he calls "Polish dialects" will be re-written back into the Polish alphabet and only allow for certain government approved words and phrases to allow a sense of "One Poland, many people." The unified language with regional gov't approved variances he claims will help the new Poland meld into the European Union and build strength throughout Europe.

Here we go...

I have heard of the opposite happening, especially how the "Gorale" are actually Polonized Rusyns and Slovaks.

Let the artillery start! FIRE! Incoming!

Ung

Христос Родився! Славіти Його!
Now please tell me: to which university did he submit this so-called thesis: "The Polish Free University" a la the "Ukrainian Free University in Munich????

Oh, Boze Moje! Say it ain't so! Where's the chalk! Oplatki for everyone!

Is this a Polish joke??

Alexandr

I think I heard a rumour (sic) that the thesis was written in Russian, but in the Old Orthography.

What are the implications of all this, or what does it matter?

If the wildest accusations are true, what does it change?

Think about FYROM.


The "naming dispute" was apparently based on historical boundaries of ancient Macedonia, a portion of which is now Greece. Concerns over ethnic tensions and a possible separatist movement in northern Greece in order to "reunify" the ancient nation . . . This idea for Poland is the same.

In parts of the world where people refer to 1000 year old events as if they happened to their own parents, it is always of concern when someone constructs such a claim and produces "proof" that they are correct.

Dave

What is FYROM?

Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia (FYROM)

A math professor (and close family friend) once showed me how the square root of -1,(√-1=i), can have a positive integer value by judicious use of substituing the right equations. Each equation is legitimate on its own but when used in a particular order of substitution, subtle errors are introduced which yield an ultimately impossible result, √-1=+integer.

Man you're tellin' me!

So that's why we sing "Preterp'ivyj" and other para-liturgical hymns, we are just honoring our "Polski" heritage! Pass the "Galompki" please!

Ung

If this is true, why is it that Rusyns, Slovaks and Ukrainians have a hard time understanding Polish, as well as vice versa? I speak Slovak and Rusyn, but when I go to Poland they say that they cannot understand me. I certainly do not understand them.

I had a professor that described Polish as, "trying to listen to Elmer Fudd".

Than you had a very rude professor.

In fact, Poles have a quite different national/cultural development from the East Slavs and are, with the Czechs, the most "Westward" oriented Slavs.

There was even an academic movement in Poland to disavow ANY Slavic connection with Poland whatsoever and redefine Polish culture in central European terms alone.

Serdechnie Dzienkuje,

Alex

Yea...he was kind of brash. I think he was there when Pitt was founded in 1787...

He didn't have a pretty great attitude toward Rusyns as well.

Just out of curiosity, let me guess at his own nationality. Ukrainian, right?

This also reminds me of a story told to me by the late Prof. John Kahanick, who had been choir director of the BC Cathedral in Passaic. He explained that he had always considered himself to be of a "Pan-Slav" leaning. He went on to say that when Karol Wojtyla was elevated to the Papacy, he attended a Polish-American dinner function. He was invited to make some remarks. He went on to say to the assembled crowd: "I think it is a great blessing from God that a Slav has been elevated to the Papacy". He said that, at that point, a female voice was heard, from the back of the room, which said, in a rather irritated fashion: "HE IS NOT A SLAV, HE IS POLISH"!

Enough said.
Dn. Robert

I always knew I was right in saying pierogi! What the heck is a pyrohy anyhow?

Wait, I thought I read somewhere that the Rusyns were actually a Celtic people... wasn't there a bunch of monks trying to prove that in Slovakia or something not too long ago?

Well, what does it matter to me. I'm Polish, Rusyn, and Irish, so I've got the best of them all! Is Rusyn me, nach bhfuil, an t-athar Serge?

Not too long ago, I read an opinion by someone (don't remember who) which put forth the idea that all Eastern Slavs would have done well to have appropriated the term "Rusyn", because, literally, it means "Son of Rus", Rus being the ancestral tribal patriarch. It would be appropriate, at the very least, for Great Russians, Ukrainians, and Carpatho-Rusyns. The term "Ukraine" actually means something like "borderland". I have a friend who is a UGCC priest, but he is not of Ukrainian ancestry. Once, when he had a bad day at a parish meeting, he said "I can't stand these "borderites"!

To complicate matters, the late Pope John Paul II whose mother was a Rusyn Greek Catholic emigrated to Krakow from a small town in Galicia / Halychyna during the WW1 era. During a visit to Harvard University the Pope commented that today, his mother's ethnicity would be considered Ukrainian.

By the Way, the "bad day at the UGCC parish meeting" may in fact have been with the 'Banderites' and not 'borderites'.

I.F.

Well, after WW1 Jozef Pilsudski wanted to create a Polish Commonwealth that would include Ukraine,Ruthenia and Lithuania, with parts of what was the new country of Czechoslovakia to come at a later date. His main rival for the presidency of Poland, Roman Dmowski was vehemently opposed to the idea because he believed that Ukrainians, Ruthenians and Lithuanians were not Poles ! Here in the USA a number of rallies and meetings were held in support of the Commonwealth idea, and several of them were violently disrupted. It wasen't the Ukrainians or Ruthenians doing it though, it was Lithuanian nationalists. In fact the situation in Chicago got so bad that after a brawl at St Adalbert's auditorium in Pilsen and another in Bridgeport, foremen at the Union Stockyards had to segregate Polish and Lithuanian workers because of continual fights breaking out.And for years afterward, West of Morgan St in the Bridgeport area was a no-go area for Lithuanians, and East of Morgan St was a no-go area for Poles. Still I know more than a few Poles who call Vilnius "Wilno" and L'viv "Lwow".

This thesis is being defended at the University of Pittsburgh in case anyone is curious. It is very thourough and may have significant implications on the future boundourial geography of modern Europe.

Христос Родився! Славіти Його!
Nothing personal, but every graduate student feels that his research will change the world. I think the desire of people in former communist lands to have their country join the EU is of greater significance to them because of their economic needs at the moment, than a thesis written in English in the USA.

Although the Ukrainian and Polish peoples are two distinct Slavic group (East and West) for a long time, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth included much of what is today the modern Ukrainian Republic. The Polish aristocracy ruled with an iron fist and the peasant Ruthenians and Poles lived in relative harmony. The Renaissance arrived in Ukraine via this Commonwealth and with it many positive cultural developments, including some which had been adopted by the Poles.

Slovakia and Carpatho-Rus were never part of the the Polish Empire, so I'm not sure on what basis the Polish author is making his claim that these regions were historicaly ethnographicaly Polish.

You may want to look at this map of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to get a better picture of just how vast the lands were:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Irp1635.png

An bhfuil tu Rusyn? Nil fhios agam!

Two comments:

a) people have, within reason, a right to the ethnic identity they prefer; and

b) the correct adjectival form of Slovakia, as well as the noun designating the language of that country is SLOVAK , not "Slovakian".

You said that better than I!

+ Vo imja Otca, i Syna, i Ducha Swatiego!

Ung

Gee, what about the "not-so-great" Russians??????


Христос Родився! Славіти Його!

Jean Francois

The Spis region of Slovakia (Spisz in Polish) was part of Poland at one time. In fact for a good part of the 19th century, the language spoken there was still closer to Polish than Slovak.

The Spish County area that borders Poland is at the confluence of the Rusyn, Slovak, German, and Polish ethnographic territories. See the Professor Tomashiv'skyj Uhro-Rus map from c.1906

Ung

Our friend Alex is quite right when he referred to Polish cultural development. In Poland's distant past, there was quite a bit of German influence. Many laws were fashioned after those enacted in German-speaking lands. The long-died out Piast ruing house had ties to the Hungarian royalty. In the partition of Poland, most Poles found themselves under the rule of Germany or Austria-Hungary.

Just a few years ago, I made a casual statement to my Polish grandmother about Poles being Slavic.

WE ARE NOT SLOVAK! was her reply.
"Grandma, I didn't say that. I said Polish people are Slavic."
WE ARE NOT! WE ARE JUST POLISH! YOU DON'T KNOW!
It was obvious I wasn't going to get my point across with her.

For what it's worth, I'm American. Half my ancestry is Polish, of which I'm proud, but it would be silly of me to say I'm Polish as someone who lives in Krakow or Wadowice.

I check the English language polskie.pl website almost every morning. From what I read, Poland isn't interested in re-creating the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or grabbing a big chunk of Byelorussia, Ukraine and Slovakia. Poles are a lot more interested in economic growth. Poland's biggest foreign policy concerns are Vladimir Putin, the US missile defense issue, Iraq and Ukranian integration into the EU. Whatever enmities existed between Poles and Ukranians decades or centuries ago, the Polish government seems to be genuinely interested in maintaining good ties with Ukraine these days.

Ah, doctoral thesis. not a graduate thesis. It isn't written entirely in English either and the man who wrote it is connected in the EU. He has dual-citizenship, and a lot of his research was conducted in the old country. Most of the documents, etc.. are in fact located in the old world. I highly doubt you can inter-library loan a 400 year old document from Warsaw.

And we come full circle to where I again ask:

What are the implications of all this, or what does it matter?

If the wildest accusations are true, what does it change?

Yes, it has been pointed out that it could lead to a certain amount of protest & bickering. Protestors and bickerors you will always have with you...

What does it change though?

It has been explained to me by such & such a party here that my Hungarian Greek Catholic Grandmother was in fact a Magyarized Rusyn. Maybe. Maybe not. OK.

What does that change???

I admit it, I am dense... so sorry if this has been answered and I just didn't grasp it... and how American of me, but if tomorrow I woke up to find out I was adopted and from totally different ethnic stock than I previously believed... I would still be the same loveable/hateable/can't-standable me...

So tomorrow every Slav comes to understand he is a Pole...

... the Irish are the lost tribes of Israel...

... Black Americans are really melanonin rich Swedes...

... my sister is 75% Japanese/25% Euro instead of 25% Japanese/75% Euro...

What does that change???

This stuff exasperates me.

This should be settled once and for all on an episode of Jerry Springer. America must know, are Slovakians really Poles?

As Lech Walesa the leader of the Polish labor union Solidarity has said on many occassions: "Without a free Ukraine, there will not be a free Poland".

I.F.

The Tasmanians were in fact a lost Polish garrison.

Fr. Serge

Thank God no one has brought up the English!

Dear Friends,

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, at one point, used the Ruthenian language as its official language.

The fact that the Crown of Poland had an empire did NOT mean that all the peoples that inhabited it were Polish (as the thesis noted appears to imply).

In fact, we know that many Polish kings wrote to their Ukrainian subjects (to their Church leaders) in Ukrainian and were primarily concerned with peace in their Empire in the first instance.

This is why when the Union of Brest did not achieve the goal of bringing all the Ruthenians into the RC Church (thereby effectively and completely Polonizing them) but created tensions between EC's and the Orthodox, the Poles became quite "anti-Brest" as noted in the letters of Lev Sapiha to St Josaphat.

(BTW, my wife is a direct descendant of Sapiha . . . goes to figure . . .).

Both Poland and Russia today, however, look longingly back at their former imperial greatness.

Our Polish community here still sings of the times when Lviv was "Lwow nash" and the song "If I had a chance to be born again, I would only want to be born in Lwow!"

And one of the greatest opponents against the canonization of Met. Andrei Sheptytsky is the Polish Catholic hierarchy.

The University of Krakow has published two "scholarly" books against Sheptytsky. Whenever Sheptytsky defended his people, BOTH the EC's AND the Orthodox, (e.g. he twice publicly defended the Orthodox people of Volyn when the Poles removed insurance from their parishes thereby allowing hooligans to burn their churches down etc.) - whenever he did this, he was villified by the Poles as a "Ukrainian nationalist." And Polish students would demonstrate in front of his residence at St George's Cathedral in "Lwow" and yell, "Pan Sheptitski na lyatarniu!" or "Mr. Sheptytsky should be hanged!"

So if anyone thinks this fellow isn't serious about what he writes or that there wouldn't get strong support for his views . . .

I've heard too many Ukies from Poland tell me how they were taught in Polish schools about how Ukrainians have "black tongues" and they "all carry switch-blades" so evil they are . . .

Some things don't really change after all.

Alex

Deacon Robert

I don't doubt that there are bigots in Poland, but to hear that.....

At any rate, Poland is in no shape, militarily or economically, to re-establish any empire that existed over 500 years ago. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Poland has run afoul of the EU because Poland wanted the EU's Day Against the Death Penalty to include opposition to abortion. The Polish government was sued in an EU court because they did not permit the woman to have an abortion. Poland wants to build a highway in an area the EU has designated as a "wilderness preserve" or something like that. Oh, and many Poles have a positive view of the US!
Ronald Reagan is a hero to many Poles!

Yes, indeed, all of that will make the EU look favorably on carving out chunks of Ukraine, Slovakia, and Byelorussia and giving it all to Warsaw.

Again, sorry, not buying it.

The most unfortunate thing about this thread is, once again, sins of the past are dredged up, which seems to take up a lot of space and time on this board.

For the bad and evil things done by Poles and the Polish governments through history, the same things have been done to Poles and Poland.
As referenced by an earlier thread, some English seem none too happy about the number of Poles in the UK.

Let's pass the Chicken Kyiv and open a bottle of wine.

How about pirohi and otichky?

I am totally indifferent to the answer just the same as if you asked me "Are Hungarians really martians?" (A case could be made, anyone who has tried to learn the language can tell you!)

My much belabored point is that academics and pseudo academics can slug this one out for another couple of centuries (making it less relevent still...) and it won't change a damn thing. I will still wake up with as many Japanese dogs on my bed, still be allergic to cats, still be Greek Catholic, still like some foods, still have bad allergies in the spring, still have the same mom and dad, still have the same sister, still be as rich or as poor, still like beer...

We get hung up on all this (#$@$) for no especially good reason.

About the only way this would REALLY interest me in ANY way is if this fellow were able to prove that *I* was the heir to a vast unclaimed fortune...

Other than that? We could all be from Freedonia...

Your comments are reasonable, from a political standpoint. I don't take the aforementioned thesis seriously, and I doubt it will have any effect on the outside world. In addition, I would be supportive of Poland against the EU, because they are taking the proper positions. I like what Polish Roman Catholics do liturgically, in contrast to the liturgical antics of the "American Church". My own mother had a Polish-born Great Grandfather. However, with all of that being said, I, by choice, am Greek Catholic, and the incident with the Polish Hierarchy vis a vis the UGCC clergy in Peremyshl-Warsaw is of very recent vintage. This tells me there is still somewhat of a problem. In the context of Church politics, the Ukrainians are well within their rights to resist the antics of a hostile Polish hierarchy. One cannot blame them for being a bit wary.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

The Ukrainian foreign minister asked just last week for the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. In fact he is in Brussels this week discussing an accelerated plan. Once Ukraine and Georgia are part of NATO, a secure pipeline bypassing Russia can act as conduit for Caspian Sea oil and gas - which reserves are no less than those in the Arabian Peninsula. Over the Black Sea through Odessa, then Brody (Galicia), and finally the Gdansk shipyards in Poland from where the fuels can be shipped anywhere in the world. The final result will be 100 years of independence for Ukraine.

The Polish government is doing everything possible to get Ukraine into NATO whereas Russia is doing everything possible to make sure that this does not happen. It seems very little has changed in 500 years on the geopolitical front - except that now it's about oil & gas instead of wheat (actually wheat prices have recently soared)

Pope John Paul II did much to bridge the gap between the Polish Catholic Church and the UGCC. It's up the UGCC to claim what is theirs, including the right to have married priest in Poland and to continue promoting the beatification of Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytskyj. It's probably worth noting that 100% of the native born Polish immigrants I meet here are not at all anti-Ukrainian. Most know what the UGCC is and think that their church should also allow priests to marry.

I.F.

Ok. As you know, I was having some fun. There is no paper and sorry if I made anyone upset. Remember the thread on Ukrainians and Rusyns I started a while ago to have fun, well, opps I did it again!
With love (and don't kick me too hard)
Orthodox Pyrohy

That is correct. OP and I never met at the "event" that never happened. I never showed him my thesis and we didn't discuss my plans for Poland in the EU which I don't have.

Nope, nothing happened.

Deacon Robert, I don't doubt what you say for a minute. After all, it isn't just Poland that has treated Eastern Catholics harshly. There has been plenty of that in the USA.

Changing the subject just a bit, if parts of Ukraine, Slovakia and Byelorussia should be returned to Poland....where does this leave Germany? A chunk of Germany was given to Poland courtesy of Stalin. Prussia ceased to exist. The Kaliningrad Oblast was once part of Prussia, no? Didn't the RSFSR take some of Eastern Ukraine? Should Prussia be re-established?

Who has Alsace-Lorraine these days? Should the Papal States be restored and returned to the Vatican? Should Spain get Gibraltar back? After all, the English weren't around when the Spanish kicked the Moors out.

I think everyone here would agree that Constantinople belongs to Greece.

Most certainly, restore the Papal States!