www.byzcath.org
Posted By: ebed melech Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 02:00 AM
An interesting story. Thanks to Aaron for passing it on!

Truthfully, I've always wondered the same thing. During the Pope's visit, it sounded like Pope Benedict and the President switched notes! With his brother Jeb being a Catholic, it would not surprise me...

Gordo

Quote
Bush Becoming a Catholic?

Monday, June 16, 2008 11:05 AM

By: Jim Meyers Article Font Size

President Bush may follow in the footsteps of his brother Jeb and convert to Catholicism, several European papers are reporting.

In the wake of the president�s visit to see Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican, Italian newspapers, citing Vatican sources, said Bush was open to the idea of converting to Catholicism.

The Italian newspaper Il Foglio referred to such talk about Bush�s possible conversion and stated that �anything is possible, especially for someone reborn like Bush.�

Noting that Tony Blair converted to Catholicism after leaving office as Britain�s prime minister last year, the paper also stated that �if anything happens, it will happen after he finishes his period as president, not before. It is similar to Blair�s case, but with different circumstances.�

President Bush welcomed Pope Benedict XVI warmly when he visited the U.S. in April. And Vatican watchers noted that Bush met privately with the pontiff in the private gardens of the Vatican last Friday � an unprecedented place for the Pope to meet a head of state. Typically, the Vatican gardens are used by the Pope for private reflection.

A Vatican spokesman said the Pope used the unusual locale to reciprocate for the �warmth� Bush showed when the two met in Washington.

Though the Catholic Church has criticized the U.S. war in Iraq, Bush has been an ardent supporter of pro-life issues; he has staunchly opposed stem-cell research; and he opposes gay marriage � all issues important for Rome.

Currently Bush belongs to a Methodist church in Texas and attends an Episcopal church in Washington, D.C.

A friend of Bush, Father George William Rutler � who converted to Catholicism in 1979 � told the Catholic News Agency that Bush �is not unaware of how evangelicalism, by comparison with Catholicism, may seem more limited both theologically and historically.�


Posted By: Elizabeth Maria Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 02:07 AM
When did Jeb Bush become a Catholic?
Posted By: ebed melech Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
When did Jeb Bush become a Catholic?

I think it was about 10 years ago, but I could be mistaken (about the time frame).

He is married to a woman of Hispanic descent.

Gordo
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 10:52 AM
Jeb Bush met his wife in 1974 while studying in Mexico. They married sometime later, but I'm pretty sure he was Catholic when the first president Bush was elected in 1988.

And coincidentally, according to this piece:
London Telegraph article [telegraph.co.uk]
Quote
Jeb Bush, the president's brother, has already converted to Catholicism.

Catholics have noted that during the contested election in 2000, Jeb Bush travelled to Mexico and prayed to the icon of Our Lady of Guadelupe. His victory was announced by the Supreme Court on December 12, the feast day of the Lady of Guadelupe.
Interesting that Our Lady of Guadalupe is invoked throughout the Americas by those in the pro-life movement, which Jeb Bush and his brother have supported strongly.

And, yes, I am aware that no private revelations are binding or necessary for salvation!
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 03:27 PM
Gov. Jeb Bush met his wife, Columba, in Leon, Mexico, in 1971 while teaching English as an exchange student at the age of 17. They married in 1974 right after Jeb graduated from college.

I think it was upon the urgings of his wife that Jeb Bush became Catholic early in his career. He is a 3rd (probably now 4th)degree Knight of Columbus.

Amado

(Jeb is short for John Ellis Bush. His youngest son Jeb, Jr. is called "Jebby."
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 03:33 PM
ne me inducas in tentationem!
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 04:43 PM
What does "anything is possible, especially for someone reborn like Bush" mean?

Alexis
Posted By: Elizabeth Maria Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
ne me inducas in tentationem!
smile
Posted By: domilsean Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 08:35 PM
Alexis, I guess it means if you can believe in the rapture, you can believe in anything! just kidding.

The oft-forgotten 4th Ghostbuster, Winston Zedmore, famously said: I'll believe anything if there's a steady paycheck in it. grin
Posted By: Theologos Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 10:41 PM
I pray that the war-monger Bush does not convert to Catholicism. He will be pushing for another crusade.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 10:57 PM
Theologos,

Regardless of what we think of President Bush personally, shouldn't we celebrate when a person, no matter who he is, abandons heresy and adopts the True Faith?

We are ALL unworthy to call ourselves Catholics, and he would be no different. That doesn't mean he shouldn't convert.

Alexis
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/17/08 11:10 PM
Well, there have been (and are still among the living) some would-be converts whom the Church refused to accept, largely because they either came with baggage they could not relinquish or because they were engaged in something incompatible with Catholicism.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Justin Oelgoetz Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 01:08 AM
I'm pretty sure Jeb converted after his first run for the Governor's Office in Florida. I understand he was toying with the idea for sometime, but after loosing an election he suddenly had time on his hands to think more. He lost his first run, but ran again in the next election and won - hence we know him only as a Catholic Governor.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 01:10 AM
OK, but those decisions are left to those in authority who can determine such things. I don't like President Bush one bit, but if Tony Blair can convert, I don't see why Bush couldn't.

Alexis
Posted By: Collin Nunis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 02:51 AM
Bush will probably repent of his war mistakes in order to become Catholic, or at least once he becomes Catholic. He'll be crusaded against if he doesn't. There are several avowed anti-war activist Catholic priests in the United States who will crucify him if he doesn't. You can't be a warmonger and a Catholic at the same time.

I doubt Fr. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy wouldn't mind though :P
Posted By: lanceg Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 04:35 AM
I have been reflecting this week on how we are all sinners. I do not say this glibly, to casually dismiss the sins of President Bush or anyone else. Jesus says that the angels rejoice over one who repents more than 99 who need no repentance. And I am obligated to pray for the President, whether I voted for him or not.
Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 08:04 AM
Every President of recent memory has had to make choices and decisions that are difficult, choices which were sometimes wrong, and sometimes right, depending on one's point of view...

Some decisions of the last *16* years of memory would have been: to bomb Serbia, (without ceasefire during ORthodox Easter despite the calls from worldwide Orthodox leaders for that one concession), to liberate Iraq from a brutal dictator, (whether or not it was a good decision in retrospect, did he really do something so bad in that--AND I remind those who are calling him a 'war monger' that he had the FULL, unequivocal support of the Clintons and other democrats who said that the intelligence was without flaw), to support late term abortion, to fight against late term abortion...

Obviously some choices will seem more sinful than others, but it seems that in the passions of partisan and/or personality politics, that can often be subjective.

Personally, I think that the comments I have heard made about President Bush in person and in the written press are unfair. In Europe, all you hear is 'Bush' this and 'Bush' that...

Let's not forget the horror of 9/11, and that he saw us through the only attack this country has ever seen on its mainland. Since that time, we have not seen another attack, and he has had to make difficult choices in how to protect our motherland against terrorism. Glory to God, many attacks have been thwarted and we have enjoyed seven years of safety in the skies and on the ground from the enemy. I think that people overlook this.

He has also done what he could to protect life, prevent stem cell research from embryos, and to express that sacredness of marriage should be between a man and a woman.

I respect his genuine commitment to Jesus Christ, I respect his spirituality, I respect the admiration he has for the Pope and for what he stands for, I respect his admirable marriage and the woman who he calls his wife, and I respect his family life and his personal life .

I respect the friendliness and kindness he shows to all people--fellow politicians and fellow citizens, people who he serves and people who serve him. I respect the respectability he brought back to the White House and to the workplace of the White House. I respect that he has done nothing in his personal life to scandalize us.

I think that the graciousness of character which we see in him (and his family) is a dying breed of old American values, and I lament its demise and its the contempt the American people of today seem to have for it.

Personally, I think that all that I have heard against him is not necessarily because of the war in Iraq, (surely past presidents have made worst choices when it came to war), but because he is a Christian, and people, in today's world, hate that.

People today seem to prefer charisma over character. The Presidency has been reduced to Hollywood like standards, and it seems that 'all powerful' Hollywood now has the power to influence how we judge a President. Yet, Hollywood values are amongst the most sinful values seen since the days of Ancient Rome--and ones which they have spread like a cancer to the rest of the world. Infact, this is one of the reasons the 'terrorist enemy' hates us.

President Bush is a man of faith, and I thank him for bringing the old fashioned respectability of family and values back into the White House. I pray for him and his family, and may God be the judge of the choices he has had to make as the most powerful leader of the world.

One need only live in Europe to see how humble his Christianity is in comparison to most of the leaders there. That makes me proud to be an American--to show European leaders (and men, in general) that one CAN be successful AND be a devoted spiritual person with old fashioned values(no sexual affairs on the side, etc.) at the same time. I remember his father being interviewed by Greek television during a trip there after his Presidency. He spent considerable time talking about how important his Christian faith was to him. That is something which is almost unheard of in Europe.

Ofcourse these were just my opinions, but not being able to express them anywhere for many years without being attacked, I thought I would offer them as a farewell tribute to the President. I like him alot, but more importantly, I respect him and I thank him for his leadership.

In Christ,
Alice


Posted By: ebed melech Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 08:46 AM
Alice,

Amen.

Gordo
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 12:07 PM
Alice,

Amen.

Michael
Posted By: Mexican Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 02:46 PM
From which sect does President Bush come from?

I am pretty sure that if he converted in Mexico, he would be received in the Catholic Church by Baptism, as it's the common practice when American Protestants convert (when they marry a Mexican spouse for example).

Some Protestant baptisms are regarded as acceptable, those coming from some Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches. I learnt this when I did my social service working for a Catholic Diocese.

However, I have read that in the United States the RC is more liberal and they even receive other Protestants by Chrismation.

Would he be received by Baptism?
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mexican
From which sect does President Bush come from?

I am pretty sure that if he converted in Mexico, he would be received in the Catholic Church by Baptism, as it's the common practice when American Protestants convert (when they marry a Mexican spouse for example).

Some Protestant baptisms are regarded as acceptable, those coming from some Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches. I learnt this when I did my social service working for a Catholic Diocese.

However, I have read that in the United States the RC is more liberal and they even receive other Protestants by Chrismation.

Would he be received by Baptism?

Let's just assume that Pres. Bush is converting. (The press reports are merely conjectures!)

Pres. Bush and his wife, Laura, are Methodists but they attend an Anglican Church in Washington, D.C.

The Catholic Church believes in only ONE baptism. Any trinitarian baptism outside of the Catholic Church is accepted as valid. If doubt persists, a convert is baptized conditionally.

Baptism in the Methodist Church, as our own Logos-Alexis will attest, is trinitarian and it is, therefore, considered by the Catholic Church as valid.

Accordingly, Pres. Bush will not be re-baptized IF he does convert to the Catholic Church.

Amado

Posted By: Fr David Straut Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Amadeus
Baptism in the Methodist Church, as our own Logos-Alexis will attest, is trinitarian and it is, therefore, considered by the Catholic Church as valid.

Accordingly, Pres. Bush will not be re-baptized IF he does convert to the Catholic Church.

Amado
My father is a United Methodist minister. In my youth (the late 1960's or early 1970's) I witnessed him 'baptise' two baby girls with earth, wind, fire, and water. For the last couple decades my father would never baptise anyone in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," but instead 'baptises' in the name of "the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sustainer." By the way, the Baptismal Certificates he fills out and gives to the parents (which are printed by a Methodist publishing house) still say "This child, N., was Baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

I don't trust Protestant 'baptisms' for this reason. Check, double check, and baptise at least conditionally.

Fr David Straut

Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 04:51 PM
Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 05:00 PM
What they call "baptism" in the Methodist Church may not be valid according to the Catholic Church because many Methodist ministers "baptize" by saying whatever they want, here is one example:
Originally Posted by http://www.brdwyumc.org/content/view/47/51/
Liturgist: We baptize you in the name of God, our Father and Mother, our Holy Parent. We baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. And we baptize you in the name of the Holy Spirit, our Sustainer.
Posted By: lanceg Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 05:23 PM
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance


Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 05:28 PM
Not only the war Lance, many underhanded and shady dealings are revealed and being on a daily basis - most from first-hand accounts of Republican Administration insiders.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=173526&title=david-iglesias&to=2

Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

I don't want to "escalate" this business, but in defense of what Alice said, Pres. Bush, with the approval of the Senate, declared war on the regime of Hussein. Whether or not it was "unjust" or "unnecessary" remains a matter of opinion, now pretty much opinions benefitting from hindsight. Yes, the Pope and others were against it, but at the time I tried to find out if the Pope had truly "condemned" going to war against Hussein, because my brother told me he had. We looked and couldn't actually find anything specific. So I think Alice's contextualization is rather accurate.

In Christ,
Michael


Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 05:43 PM
Hi,

Originally Posted by Mexican
From which sect does President Bush come from?

I am pretty sure that if he converted in Mexico, he would be received in the Catholic Church by Baptism, as it's the common practice when American Protestants convert (when they marry a Mexican spouse for example).

Some Protestant baptisms are regarded as acceptable, those coming from some Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches. I learnt this when I did my social service working for a Catholic Diocese.

However, I have read that in the United States the RC is more liberal and they even receive other Protestants by Chrismation.

Would he be received by Baptism?


Anybody who has been baptized with water, in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirt, is considered baptized and therefore, not in need for Baptism.

Such a person is received into full communion with the Catholic Church by a profession of faith, probably Confirmation and Eucharist. These people may need to receive the sacrament of Reconciliation as well.

Othodox Christians who have been baptized and chrismated are received in the same way, but I don't think they are re-Confirmed.

I am not sure if President Bush has been Baptized. Not all Methodists baptize their infant children. Some opt for a "christening" rite without the use of water, and therefore, this would not be a valid baptism.

And if the rumors are true, I would certainly pray that Mr. Bush's conversion is sincere and that he does leave behind his war-loving tendencies he has shown so far.

And if his spiritual enlightment could come together with some of the more regular, humand kind, that would not hurt either.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Administrator Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 06:11 PM
First, let us pray that the Lord is leading President Bush towards full membership in the Catholic Church.

Second, a discussion about the justness or unjustness of the effort to liberate the Iraqi people is more appropriate to another thread. If one reads closely what the Holy Father, Pope John Paul the Great, stated (and not the biased account reported in most of the media) it amounts to an agreement that the conditions for the war were just but that even just wars must be avoided. One can support the effort in Iraq and remain in good standing with the Catholic Church just as one can oppose the effort in Iraq and be in good standing with the Catholic Church.

Thirdly, I highly recommend to all not to consider entertainment websites as legitimate sources of news. It is usually best to obtain information from all sources, both liberal and conservative, both domestic and international before forming conclusions (avoiding the sheer entertainment stuff). [Overall, Alice's summary above is quite accurate.]

Interesting, President Bush is hated viscerally by many on the political left. And so was President Reagan at the same point in his term. If the Iraqis do succeed in establishing a constitutional democracy (I give them a 50/50 chance at this point) then it is possible that history will judge President Bush as fondly as it now judges President Reagan.
Posted By: lanceg Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 06:13 PM
Dear Michael & Alice,

I do not think you are "escalating" things, we just discussing, and I respect your support of the president. I have not supported him politically, in the voting booth, but I support him as a person, and as our President, and pray for him each day.

I would hope that for Christians there would be a strong presumption against war. Yes, we benefit from hindsight, but, as I mentioned, our religious leaders were against the war at the time it was pending.

Michael Saliba's statement seems in particular very prophetic, in an Old Testament sense:
http://www.antiochian.org/news/Release20021009_Iraq.htm

STATEMENT ON IRAQ
While our country is on the brink of war with Iraq, it is the opinion of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America that our esteemed President and governmental leaders rethink their position and the logic behind this impending conflict. Such an attack will destabilize the entire region, cause untold harm to countless children and other civilians as well as bring political and social unrest to an already troubled area of the world.

It is our conviction that all United Nations resolutions must be implemented in a consistent and meaningful way. We must add that we find it hypocritical that Iraq is threatened with war and destruction for failing to comply with UN resolutions while another state in the same region is in violation of about seventy UN resolutions which have never been implemented. This continues to be a reality even as this state occupies land that does not belong to it, illegally expands and builds settlements on occupied territories and implements collective punishment on masses of innocent people because of the distorted actions of a few. We are fully aware that Saddam Hussein and his government have committed atrocious acts which are in violation of international law.

We are gravely concerned, however, that a war against Iraq will create even more chaos in the region. The overthrowing of the Iraqi government could cause the breakup of the country into warring factions for many years to come. In addition, the geo-political imbalance this war would cause in the area will take generations to repair. It is said that our government will �rebuild Iraq and help the people of Iraq to form a democratic government.� History has proven that this rarely comes to fruition. We need only look to the Balkans and Afghanistan as recent examples.

Therefore, we beseech our respected leaders and representatives and all those of good will to allow the United Nations inspectors to complete their mission. At the same time, we encourage our President and Congress to seek the difficult and tiresome road of peace rather than the bloody and dark road of war.
Issued by: Metropolitan PHILIP Saliba, Primate
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America


There are several other statements of course, by Orthodox and Catholic leaders, but I feel Metropolitan Saliba's was the most poignant and prophetic. And look at the last sentence: we encourage our President and Congress to seek the difficult and tiresome road of peace rather than the bloody and dark road of war. Isn't that the way of Christ?


As Christians, we should be peacemakers. We should resort to war only as a last tragic necessity, when no other means of resolution are viable. I do not think that was the case with Iraq at all.

I think that we Americans as a nation were to eager to go to war at the time; that our politicians were too cowardly in an election year to vote against the war, and that we were too much influenced by fear, after the awful events of 911, rather than by our faith in our God.

Blessings,

Lance
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 06:21 PM
John,

Quote
even just wars must be avoided.

Thanks. That is an very good point.
Posted By: francis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 06:27 PM
Fr. David,

Quote
My father is a United Methodist minister. In my youth (the late 1960's or early 1970's) I witnessed him 'baptise' two baby girls with earth, wind, fire, and water. For the last couple decades my father would never baptise anyone in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," but instead 'baptises' in the name of "the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sustainer." By the way, the Baptismal Certificates he fills out and gives to the parents (which are printed by a Methodist publishing house) still say "This child, N., was Baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

I don't trust Protestant 'baptisms' for this reason. Check, double check, and baptise at least conditionally.

This is very scary indeed! I was baptized in the United Methodist church in the early 1970's, and when I was to be received into the Catholic Church in the early 1990's, they accepted the certificate from my old church that I was baptized in the Trinitarian formula. But it sounds like that is no guarantee.

I do know the minister who baptized me, and he is a pretty conservative minister, so I doubt anything flaky happened in my instance, but your story makes me think that conditional baptisms should be the norm when it comes to bringing in Protestants.

Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 06:39 PM
Lance,

Quote
I think that we Americans as a nation were to eager to go to war at the time; that our politicians were too cowardly in an election year to vote against the war, and that we were too much influenced by fear, after the awful events of 911, rather than by our faith in our God.

In retrospect, I agree with you. At the time, I also was afraid that there might be collusion between Hussein and Al-Qaeda (one acquires the arms, the other delivers them). Part of my fear was based on Hussein's $20,000 bonuses to the families of suicide bombers in Israel.

It did not help when France and Germany, who had billions of dollars of business with Iraq, made their "play" in the UN. They said they had seen the same evidence of WMD and that it was valid, but ???

Personally, I wonder if all this might have been avoided if the "UN" had parked in southern Iraq after March 1991, rather than fly away and pass resolutions -- I notice how Jim Baker now smiles and takes credit for not marching to Bahgdad then, but what if they had simply stayed where they were?

In Christ,
Michael


Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

One of the problems of this forum program is that when someone posts after another, it looks as if they are somehow responding to that person's post even if they are not-- because the top of the posting box will say 'RE:xxx' (the person's name of the last post you read before posting).

When I am responding to someone in particular, I will generally 'reply with quote' as I have done here.

Actually, if you read page 1, I was responding to a general attitude that had been building up by the time you posted and not you specifically.

Take care....

In Christ,
Alice smile
Posted By: lanceg Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

One of the problems of this forum program is that when someone posts after another, it looks as if they are somehow responding to that person's post even if they are not-- because the top of the posting box will say 'RE:xxx' (the person's name of the last post you read before posting).

When I am responding to someone in particular, I will generally 'reply with quote' as I have done here.

Actually, if you read page 1, I was responding to a general attitude that had been building up by the time you posted and not you specifically.

Take care....

In Christ,
Alice smile


Thanks Alice! smile
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 09:24 PM
Fr. Straut,

While your fathers actions are deplorable (no offense), I would imagine that is a very, very rare occurence in the United Methodist Church.

Anyway, I am from a small, Southern town in west Georgia. I was certainly baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with water from the River Jordan, actually, and have been to dozens upon dozens of baptisms at my old church performed by various ministers and it has always been the exact same way.

Any other "baptism" of the sort you speak of would NEVER, ever fly in these parts, I can assure you of that. People would absolutely lose it. I highly doubt President Bush was baptized in the name of anything other than the Trinity, and since he is about 60 years old and was surely baptized as an infant, long before this fad, rare as it is, reared its ugly head, makes it even more doubtful that something went awry.

In my humble opinion.

Alexis
Posted By: Mexican Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/18/08 10:20 PM
I have always been against all forms of Imperialist agressions. However, I don't believe President Bush to be evil or fully responsable for these actions. The interests of world capitalism are behind all these wars, the governments of the world are just instruments of those who truly have the power.

Anyways, I also think that there must be another thread to discuss this.

Regarding the President's probable conversion, we all believe in One Baptism as long as it is a true baptism. In Mexico the Catholic Church does not recognize most Protestant baptisms as grace-giving, including that of the Methodists:

http://www.vicariadepastoral.org.mx/cardenal/directorio_sacramentos/apendice.htm

I was told that it was the common practice before Vatican II to baptize every convert from Protestantism, because it's imposible to assure that the Baptism was correct, and that the minister had an orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

Posted By: Athanasius The L Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 12:33 AM
I doubt that there are many who despise President Bush more than I do. I believe that his moral failings are of a grave nature and that he has done a great disservice to our nation and to the world. In spite of all this, I would welcome his conversion to the Catholic faith.

I believe that whenever a Christian feels as harshly towards someone as some of us do towards President Bush, it is good to be confronted with a question once posed to one of my closest friends by the priest who was at that time his confessor. My friend was discussing the difficulties he was having with a coworker and the priest said to him, "Who are you to decide that she is not worthy of salvation?"

In spite of my feelings, it is not for me to pass judgment on President Bush, nor is it my place to oppose his reception into the Catholic Church, should that ever happen. Ultimately, President Bush is accountable to God--not to me. Furthermore, though my own sins are not the cause of public scandal because I am not a public figure, I will no more escape God's judgment than will President Bush--or anyone else. May God have mercy on President Bush and may the Holy Spirit guide him "into all truth." And may God have mercy on us all.

Ryan
Posted By: Theologos Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Michael McD
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

I don't want to "escalate" this business, but in defense of what Alice said, Pres. Bush, with the approval of the Senate, declared war on the regime of Hussein. Whether or not it was "unjust" or "unnecessary" remains a matter of opinion, now pretty much opinions benefitting from hindsight. Yes, the Pope and others were against it, but at the time I tried to find out if the Pope had truly "condemned" going to war against Hussein, because my brother told me he had. We looked and couldn't actually find anything specific. So I think Alice's contextualization is rather accurate.

In Christ,
Michael



Traditionally, the responsibility of declaring war falls to Congress according to the Constitution. This however has been cast aside after WWII when the president was given carte blanche as the commander of the armed forces. There has not been an official Constitutional declaration of war since WWII. Sorry for the tangent, I will get back on topic.
Posted By: Theologos Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Theologos,

Regardless of what we think of President Bush personally, shouldn't we celebrate when a person, no matter who he is, abandons heresy and adopts the True Faith?

We are ALL unworthy to call ourselves Catholics, and he would be no different. That doesn't mean he shouldn't convert.

Alexis


You are very right. I was making my statement tongue-in-cheek. I just hope that Bush would fully adopt the teachings of the Catholic faith and incorporate them into his life and his policy while in the public sector. I fear that it would not be a true metanoia on his part. If he did not change his conduct after becoming Catholic it would be one more flash-point for others to criticize our most Single, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Posted By: Theologos Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by Administrator
First, let us pray that the Lord is leading President Bush towards full membership in the Catholic Church.

Second, a discussion about the justness or unjustness of the effort to liberate the Iraqi people is more appropriate to another thread. If one reads closely what the Holy Father, Pope John Paul the Great, stated (and not the biased account reported in most of the media) it amounts to an agreement that the conditions for the war were just but that even just wars must be avoided. One can support the effort in Iraq and remain in good standing with the Catholic Church just as one can oppose the effort in Iraq and be in good standing with the Catholic Church.

Thirdly, I highly recommend to all not to consider entertainment websites as legitimate sources of news. It is usually best to obtain information from all sources, both liberal and conservative, both domestic and international before forming conclusions (avoiding the sheer entertainment stuff). [Overall, Alice's summary above is quite accurate.]

Interesting, President Bush is hated viscerally by many on the political left. And so was President Reagan at the same point in his term. If the Iraqis do succeed in establishing a constitutional democracy (I give them a 50/50 chance at this point) then it is possible that history will judge President Bush as fondly as it now judges President Reagan.

I agree. However, if we as Americans are interested in making the world safe for democracy, should we not try to leap a higher hurdle? Should we not force China into a democracy? Or even North Korea? The crimes against humanity in these two Godless countries is probably more in need of our intervention. But is forcing people by the sword the way to make them change? Should we not rather pray for the Iraqi people instead of militarily intervening?
Posted By: dochawk Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Amadeus
The Catholic Church believes in only ONE baptism. Any trinitarian baptism outside of the Catholic Church is accepted as valid.

caveat: The Trinity used must be Father, Son, and Spirit/Ghost. And it must be by water.

Oh, and isn't there another problem with sprinkling rather than pouring?

hawk
Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 02:59 AM
God Bless President Bush!
I have long had an icon of the protecting veil of the Mother of God, hanging over His and Laura's picture.
Stephanos I
And have prayed for years for his conversion to the Catholic Faith.
Posted By: Fr David Straut Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Fr. Straut,

While your fathers actions are deplorable (no offense), I would imagine that is a very, very rare occurence in the United Methodist Church.

Anyway, I am from a small, Southern town in west Georgia. I was certainly baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with water from the River Jordan, actually, and have been to dozens upon dozens of baptisms at my old church performed by various ministers and it has always been the exact same way.

Any other "baptism" of the sort you speak of would NEVER, ever fly in these parts, I can assure you of that. People would absolutely lose it. I highly doubt President Bush was baptized in the name of anything other than the Trinity, and since he is about 60 years old and was surely baptized as an infant, long before this fad, rare as it is, reared its ugly head, makes it even more doubtful that something went awry.

In my humble opinion.

Alexis
Dear Alexis,

Please call me Fr David. It is not proper in the Eastern Church to use the title "Father" with a surname.

I really have no doubt that either you or our President were christened with the proper words. You because admittedly the Methodist Church is quite a bit more conservative in the South and the President because of his age. But I assure you that Baptism in the name of "the Creator, and the Redeemer, and the Sustainer/Sanctifier" is not at all rare in the United Methodist Church. In the Northeast, the Left Coast, and the majority of the UMC's Theological Schools it is quite common.

But things may be deteriorating even in Dixie. I returned to the South for the funerals of my Grandfather, my Grandmother, and my Uncle, which were performed by my Father. He used 'inclusive' language exclusively in these funerals from Scripture Readings (making changes even to the NRSV), to the prayers, to the hymns. Nobody seemed to notice or bat an eyelash.

Say what you will about my Father's actions, but he is not a rare bird in his Denomination.

With warmest regards,

Fr David

Posted By: ebed melech Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Michael McD
Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael

Michael,

Yes - there was a situation in Australia this past year where it was revealed that some priests at a parish were using the modalistic "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" nonsense. There were instructed to "re" baptize everyone using the proper Names of the HOly trinity according to Tradition and official Church teaching.

Why in the world such men remained priests and were not defrocked is beyond me. It is like a doctor amputating the wrong leg! Spiritual malpractice!

In ICXC,

Gordo
Posted By: Elizabeth Maria Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Dear Alexis,

Please call me Fr David. It is not proper in the Eastern Church to use the title "Father" with a surname.

I really have no doubt that either you or our President were christened with the proper words. You because admittedly the Methodist Church is quite a bit more conservative in the South and the President because of his age. But I assure you that Baptism in the name of "the Creator, and the Redeemer, and the Sustainer/Sanctifier" is not at all rare in the United Methodist Church. In the Northeast, the Left Coast, and the majority of the UMC's Theological Schools it is quite common.

But things may be deteriorating even in Dixie. I returned to the South for the funerals of my Grandfather, my Grandmother, and my Uncle, which were performed by my Father. He used 'inclusive' language exclusively in these funerals from Scripture Readings (making changes even to the NRSV), to the prayers, to the hymns. Nobody seemed to notice or bat an eyelash.

Say what you will about my Father's actions, but he is not a rare bird in his Denomination.

With warmest regards,

Fr David

I will pray for your father's conversion.
Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
I doubt that there are many who despise President Bush more than I do. I believe that his moral failings are of a grave nature and that he has done a great disservice to our nation and to the world. Ryan

I felt that a former President had grave moral and ethical failings, that what went on in his administration were scandalous and corrupt, that he had done a great disservice to our nation and to the world in so many other decisions, debased the respectability of the White House, and yet I do not 'despise' him at all.

First of all, hatred is a sin, and secondly, I don't even know him! wink crazy wink

Alice

P.S. Ryan-before you get bent out of shape, please see the wink with my post--I am just teasing you. smile
Posted By: Athanasius The L Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
I doubt that there are many who despise President Bush more than I do. I believe that his moral failings are of a grave nature and that he has done a great disservice to our nation and to the world. Ryan

I felt that a former President had grave moral and ethical failings, that what went on in his administration were scandalous and corrupt, that he had done a great disservice to our nation and to the world in so many other decisions, debased the respectability of the White House, and yet I do not 'despise' him at all.

First of all, hatred is a sin, and secondly, I don't even know him! wink crazy wink

Alice

Dear Alice:

I think you've missed the point of my post. What I was trying to stress is that I believe that my own beliefs and similar beliefs held by certain others concerning what they and I consider to be very serious sins on the part of President Bush are irrelevant with respect both to whether or not President Bush should be received into the Catholic Church and to whether or not President Bush is "worthy of salvation." The intent of my post was to give witness to the grace of God which ultimately triumphs over the judgment of man. It was for the sake of making that point that I stated that I believe President Bush's moral flaws to be of a very serious nature.

I would also add that to despise someone is not the same as hating that person, at least not in my mind. One definition of "despise," from Webster's College Dictionary is "to look down upon with contempt or scorn." This is the sense of the word "despise" that I have in mind whenever I say that I despise someone. I hate neither President Bush nor anyone else, and if I actually did hate him, I would use the word "hate" and not the word "despise."

Also, I think it is perfectly fair--based on a reading of quite a few posts on this forum--that we do indeed have a number of members who despise a number of politicians and I really don't see anything wrong with that. The conduct of so many politicians--Democrats and Republicans alike--invites contempt or scorn.

Furthermore, though I am a center to left-of-center Democrat, I'm not particulary troubled by those who continually bash many politicians from my party when they point to what they see as their serious moral failures--even in those cases when I don't necessarily agree with their assessments. Given the number of those members of this forum who often speak of Democratic politicians with no lack of contempt or scorn (and often without being rebuked), I don't think it's asking too much for those of us who are critical of President Bush to be allowed the same degree of freedom in expressing our opinions. But again, what I perceive to be the gravity of President Bush's failings wasn't really the point of my previous post.

Finally, I will reiterate what I was intending to stress in my last post. We are sinners and we all ultimately are accountable for our sins--not so much to each other, but to God our Father, whose mercy triumphs over the judgment of man.

In Christ,

Ryan
Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 08:57 AM
Dear Ryan,

Again, as I said in my P.S., I was just teasing you! wink

(One usually teases another when one is fond of him/her..so please take this in the spirit it was given) smile

Alice smile
Posted By: Michael McD Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 02:47 PM
Hey Gordo,

(Continuing to pray for your upcoming ordination).


Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by Michael McD
Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael

Michael,

Yes - there was a situation in Australia this past year where it was revealed that some priests at a parish were using the modalistic "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" nonsense. There were instructed to "re" baptize everyone using the proper Names of the HOly trinity according to Tradition and official Church teaching.

Why in the world such men remained priests and were not defrocked is beyond me. It is like a doctor amputating the wrong leg! Spiritual malpractice!

In ICXC,

Gordo

"Spiritual malpractice" indeed. And I wouldn't be surprised if this were going on on this "near side of the world" also. Unfortunately, there has been so much in the western Church for so many decades that it's easy to get jaded when you are "not involved" so to speak. But we really are involved, and all I can think of doing is prayer and penance.

In Christ,
Michael

Posted By: Athanasius The L Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by Alice
Dear Ryan,

Again, as I said in my P.S., I was just teasing you! wink

(One usually teases another when one is fond of him/her..so please take this in the spirit it was given) smile

Alice smile

Dear Alice:

I think I will have to quit reading the Forum at 3-4 AM. I didn't even see your P.S. Thank you for pointing that out.

Ryan
Posted By: lanceg Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 04:51 PM
Kind of interesting, there are almost two sub-threads here, one about President Bush, and one about invalid baptism.

I am sure someone else has actually mentioned it, but there are unfortunately Catholic Churches that have used invalid baptismal forms as well. One of our priests at St. John's in Minneapolis had to re-baptize the children in one family, because they had been baptized in the Creator, Redeemer, & Sanctifier formula at a more liberal Catholic Parish.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/19/08 08:47 PM
Estimado Paisano,

Originally Posted by Mexican
Regarding the President's probable conversion, we all believe in One Baptism as long as it is a true baptism. In Mexico the Catholic Church does not recognize most Protestant baptisms as grace-giving, including that of the Methodists:

http://www.vicariadepastoral.org.mx/cardenal/directorio_sacramentos/apendice.htm


Maybe you need to re-red the link you sent us.

In it, it is clearly stated that the sacrament of baptism, administered by the Orthodox Churches and the "Historical" Protestant denominations, including the Methodists is generally considered valid. In the specific case of the Methodists, the Primatial Archidocese of Mexico considers it "in doubt", so Methodists are probably baptized conditionally there.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 02:59 AM
Many believe that President Bush saved America. I think that it would be great if he became a Catholic. It would be even better if he became Orthodox! I'd volunteer to be his Godfather!

Alexandr
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 06:03 AM
Saved America? I think those 28% of Americans are the same ones who still believe the President's fantasy that Saddam had WMD and met Osama's henchman in Niger, and that this is the reason he sent our soldiers to Iraq. (These same 28% may overlap with the percentage of Americans who are considered "functionally illiterate".) grin
Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Saved America? I think those 28% of Americans are the same ones who still believe the President's fantasy that Saddam had WMD and met Osama's henchman in Niger, and that this is the reason he sent our soldiers to Iraq. (These same 28% may overlap with the percentage of Americans who are considered "functionally illiterate".) grin

Dear Michael Thoma,

President Bush's 'fantasy' was shared by others. I will never forget the interview former Pres. Clinton and Sen. Hilary Clinton had on 'Larry King Live', a few weeks before we actually went to Iraq. I will never forget it because it was so shocking, to hear them unequivocally back President Bush's decision to go to war!

Infact, they said that during Mr. Clinton's term they had collected undeniable intelligence on Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, and that something had to be done about them!

I wish that people who like to listen to popular opinion and waffling politicians over research would give President Bush a break.

It would also be nice, whether, in retrospect, the decision was a good one or a bad one of our government, if we were to support the Iraqi people a little more, who are experiencing far more suffering than anybody can fathom, by offering them our silent prayers for success in their country, and by supporting our troops who are there giving their lives in helping them and protecting them.

Bad mouthing the President and the War does not serve this purpose, and only gives fuel to our many enemies throughout the world.

(..and trust me, those enemies and critics remain the same through Democratic terms and Republican terms of office, despite their claims which are often to the contrary)

Thank you.

Alice
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 07:37 AM
Dear Alice,

I don't believe that disagreeing with or even badmouthing the President or any other politician gives fuel to our enemies, in my opinion, the enemy has won when Americans are too afraid to disagree or disparage how the President is doing his job.

All the research that I have read, from PBS to intelligence (e.g. Richard Clarke, Joseph Wilson, etc) to the insiders in the Administration reveals that the story that the Administration was repeating to the media and the UN Security Council was cooked up by the Administration themselves. Dick Cheney cited a bogus news story that was leaked without CIA approval (in fact, the CIA refused to substantiate the story so the VP's Office purposely leaked it) - Saddam's secret service meeting with high level al Qaeda in Niger about "yellow cake uranium". The story was then systematically repeated by Cheney all over the news, then picked up by Rumsfeld and repeated as fact - all the while, the CIA is repeating to the National Security Advisor that this meeting never occurred and is in fact bogus and cannot be trusted since it was taken from an unreliable source who was tortured by Egyptian intelligence. The story that was created by the VP's Office was then cited by the VP as fact and inserted into the President's State of the Union Address and then repeated by Colin Powell at the UN - with expressed disapproval of the CIA.


I cannot see how this was a mistake or oversight in any way, in my opinion, this Act was deliberate and systematic, not to mention illegal and the cause for an illegal and unnecessary war.
Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 07:49 AM
In retrospect, I agree this was a bad or misinformed decision, however, the former Administration and this Administration thought it was not at the time--for whatever reason. I do not support a war, I support the fact that it was done and that we should thank those who fought there and who serve there to help these people. The Middle East will probably never be stabilized, but let's hope that in the end, this effort will help.

Having lived in Europe off and on, and knowing many Europeans from various countries, I would like to tell you to trust me, we can do no right, (if we don't topple a government we are bad, if we do, again we are bad),and it doesn't matter whether our President was named Reagan, Bush or Clinton, or is a Democrat or a Republican!! I have heard and seen it all.

A house divided among itself will fall, and I do think that people in our country are getting a bit out of hand with this political anomosity thing.

Just as many did not support bombing Kosovo, but bit their lips about it in our country, I think the same should be done for the greater good right now...

So, let's support our young men and women and not turn them into ostracized vets in the style of Viet Nam, and let's pray that Iraq will succeed as a nation.Those poor people have suffered enough and no one in our spoiled nation seems to give a hoot about them.

Alice

Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 08:01 AM
I agree with you dear Alice. I am a former member of the military.

We as a nation have not done our fair share in taking in Iraqi refugees, I just read a report yesterday:

Syria 1.5million Iraqi refugees
Jordan 500,000 Iraqi refugees
Sweden 6000 Iraqi refugees
USA 3000 Iraqi refugees

3000??! That is a pathetic farse!

As to the bombings of Kosovo - I distinctly remember hearing how much of a villain Mr. Clinton was for doing that, as well as the airbombings of Baghdad (I distinctly remember right wing pundits - Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity - calling it a real-life 'Wag the Dog' scenario??)


Here's an article from 2004 regarding these claims:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/wag.dog/
Posted By: Alice Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 08:04 AM
Quote
As to the bombings of Kosovo - I distinctly remember hearing how much of a villain Mr. Clinton was for doing that, as well as the airbombings of Baghdad (I distinctly remember right wing pundits - Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity - calling it a real-life 'Wag the Dog' scenario??)

Perhaps. I stand corrected. I don't remember the average man on the street being as outraged, however. In any case...

Peace,
Alice
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 08:55 AM
I preached against the bombings at St. Michael's, New York - and almost had my head handed to me. The deacon said with disapproval "you forgot the Albanians" - my response was that the USA was not, so far as I knew, bombing Albania.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: DAVIDinVA Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 10:39 AM
FYI, George Bush was baptized and raised an Episcopalian; he didn't join the UMC until he married Laura. He would have been baptized with the formula from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer:
" baptize thee In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
see:
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/Baptism.htm
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 02:17 PM
From my experience, the ECUSA is much more liberal than the UMC. I would think, if anything, the Episcopalians would be more prone to change the baptismal formula than the Methodists.

Alexis
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 02:57 PM
Alexis, here's an article from 2007 which confirms your experience:
Originally Posted by http://www.downanddromore.org/?do=news&newsid=430
Bishop ponders in his heart about some liturgical trends in America
Friday 14 September 2007

The following article by Bishop Harold Miller was published in The church of Ireland Gazette on Friday 7 September 2007:


Pondering in my heart: Reflections on personal experiences of ECUSA, six years ago.

I should probably have said all of this six years ago, when I had just returned from being in the United States on Sabbatical, but it all seemed very subjective. What I noticed then were several trends in the Episcopal Church in the USA which have probably become more pronounced over the intervening years. Some, if not all, of these first-hand but subjective observations bring into focus key issues which are at the heart of the new ways of understanding the faith in The Episcopal Church today. These highlight the fact that the divisions we are experiencing in the Anglican Communion are not simply to do with sexuality. I write about these because it is important to note that there really is the beginning of a new kind of religion in parts of The Episcopal Church - a religion which not only re-interprets the traditional central tenets of the Christian faith, but which in fact has the potential to jettison many of them altogether.

My first observation six years ago was the gradual replacement of the word �Lord� in reference to Jesus Christ. There was a perceptible change as I travelled across from the east coast to the west, from the traditional: �The Lord be with you� in the liturgy, to the revised version, �God be with you�, and eventually, on the west coast �God is in you�.and also in you�! The reason for the change is relatively obvious: �Lord� is not only male, it is also perceived as authoritarian. But there is a great seriousness about a simplistic removal of the word, which would eventually preclude rather than necessitating the basic early Christian declaration of faith �Jesus Christ is Lord� � the very declaration which all will make when every knee bows and every tongue confesses him.

Secondly, and aligned to the last point, is the removal or weakening of the title �Father� in relation to the first person of the Trinity. This has led to an uncomfortableness for some with the basic baptismal formula: �In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit� and to replacement �blessings� such as �The blessing of God - Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer� where God is described by function rather than in personal names. Last year at the General Convention a series of prayers were introduced for every situation from a child coming out of nappies to a person passing a driving test, and including, of course, a �coming out� prayer. When I asked myself why it was necessary to provide liturgical prayers for such occasions, the answer immediately stared me in the face: All the prayers were devoid of the words, �Father�, �Son� and �Lord�, and clearly were enabling people to pray in this new way! But the removal of �Father� (a revealed name of God) would be a disastrous move, since it is the name by which Jesus taught us to address God in the Lord�s Prayer, and it is also central to the first tenet of the Apostles� Creed: �I believe in God, the Father Almighty��.

My third observation was an emerging new theology of baptism. This was clarified for me when I was taken with members of the International Anglican Liturgical Consultation to a radical Episcopal church in San Francisco. When we entered into the liturgical space, I could see the table, which was unbounded by rails and clearly open to all. But I could not see the place of baptism. When I asked where it was, I was taken out the back, and told that it had been placed there so that baptism would not be a stumbling-block to newcomers. In other words, the idea goes, all people are welcome to the table no matter what their belief or lifestyle, as Jesus had table-fellowship with prostitutes and sinners. Baptism can be looked into later when there is time to think things through. This is, of course, a reversal of the biblical model, where baptism was the sacrament freely and always available for all who come to repentance and faith, and communion, the table fellowship of the baptized for which self-examination was necessary.

Aligned to that, I have also observed, and have seen particularly in the West Coast, an uncomfortableness with repentance and confession of sin. The theory, as I understand it goes something like this: The archetypal Eucharistic rite is focussed around the gathering, the word, the intercessions, the table and the going out. Confession is an optional extra. This was almost encouraged by the International Anglican Liturgical Consultation document on the eucharist, and by the pattern where the confession in the middle section was displaced when there was, for example a baptism, marriage, or an ordination. There has been a reclaiming of penitence in some of these rites recently, especially in the Church of England, by placing the penitential section at the beginning of the service. It is one thing to omit penitence in a church which has the expectation of personal auricular confession, but quite another to omit it in a church of the Reformation which enjoins General Confession. There is, in my view, behind this, a serious underplaying of personal sin and personal salvation.

The next element of the liturgy to be �downplayed� was historic Creeds. Again, we are told that the Eucharistic prayer is creedal (a part-truth), or that Creeds are not a necessary part of worship (another part-truth), but the eventual reality which I observed was the omitting of the historic creeds altogether in the main Sunday liturgy. I was sensitized to expect something of this sort several years ago when I met a very radical Presbyterian minister from Albuquerque. I asked him did they have the historic creeds in the worship of the Presbyterian Church in the U.S. His answer was this: �Yes. We have fourteen declarations of faith at the back of the book and they all interplay with each other�! There is a real reaction to and distancing from propositional statements of faith, even the historic ecumenical creeds - and in some cases from their central tenets and beliefs.

Sixth, and following on from the last point, there is an inclination to try to find ways of holding all faiths together as believing in a common god. This is seen, for example in Grace Cathedral, San Francisco, where there is an interfaith labyrinth and an interfaith chapel, in which the symbols of all the major world faiths are displayed. This makes its way into the liturgy, where, when the Eucharistic bread is broken, I heard words similar to the following used: �We break this bread for our ancestors in the Jewish faith, our brothers and sisters in Islam, our friends who are Buddhists etc��� � and this at a key Christocentic part of the liturgy.

And last, though in fact there are many other observations I could also make, there is, in my personal subjective view, a dawning realization that the heart of the central act of worship (the bread and wine of communion) is the doctrine of the atonement � a doctrine increasingly disliked in the new religion. I noticed an increasing emphasis on the eucharist as �community meal�, a reduced emphasis on the sacrificial death of Christ in some newer eucharistic prayers, and the preference in some places to distribute the elements with words such as �the bread� and �the cup� rather than �the body� and �the blood�. Alongside this, the issue has been raised as to whether the Words of Institution (�this is my body�� �this is my blood�) are required for a eucharistic prayer. Whatever disagreements on eucharistic doctrine there may have been between �catholics� and �evangelicals� in the past, there was always an agreement that the heart of the matter was the sacrificial, atoning death of Christ.

I write all this because we need to be aware that change is incremental. It is only noticed after a period of time. I do not say this to �damn� the Episcopal Church. Indeed, my own diocese is in a very happy link relationship with a diocese of the Episcopal Church. But changes are happening, and changes which are not peripheral, but central to our identity as Anglicans and indeed as Christians. The issue which we face, as has so often been pointed out, is not essentially one of sexuality but one of authority and doctrine. In so many ways, parts of the Episcopal Church have been losing deep aspects of their identity. If God is not Father, Jesus is not Lord, the Son is not unique, baptism is not necessary, the creeds are optional, repentance and sin are dated concepts and the atonement is marginalized or even rejected, where do we go from here? The faith remaining will be a very different faith from the Christian faith once delivered to the saints � and I, for one, am not going there!

Harold Miller

August 2007
Posted By: Mexican Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/20/08 03:19 PM
Dear Memo:

I said "most Protestant baptisms" because as you know, in our country, most Protestants belong to the modern sectarian groups (Evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc.).

Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans are a very small minority, they don't proselitize and I haven't seen local members of these religions becoming Catholic (but I suppose their baptism is recognized as valid). I just saw cases of Americans who converted to Catholicism here, and they were probably Baptists or Evangelicals.
Posted By: dochawk Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/21/08 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
As to the bombings of Kosovo - I distinctly remember hearing how much of a villain Mr. Clinton was for doing that, as well as the airbombings of Baghdad (I distinctly remember right wing pundits - Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity - calling it a real-life 'Wag the Dog' scenario??)

That might have had something to with the major impeachment vote the next day . . .

smile

There was no dispute that Sadam had WMD; he had already used them. The question is what happened to them, and if they had actually been destroyed (without any records!) prior to US involvement.

hawk

Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/21/08 03:30 AM
I have serious doubts that Saddam had WMD during Clinton's time, when was the last report of him having used them, 1992 - remember that prior to that in 1982, Saddam used them with the expressed permission of the Reagan administration? Remember the oft-repeated video of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand - that was right around the gassing of the Kurds.

Any WMD acquired during that time would be expired or unusable. I'd say Israeli intelligence planted this story to get the US to react.
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/21/08 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by dochawk
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
As to the bombings of Kosovo - I distinctly remember hearing how much of a villain Mr. Clinton was for doing that, as well as the airbombings of Baghdad (I distinctly remember right wing pundits - Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity - calling it a real-life 'Wag the Dog' scenario??)

That might have had something to with the major impeachment vote the next day . . .

smile

There was no dispute that Sadam had WMD; he had already used them. The question is what happened to them, and if they had actually been destroyed (without any records!) prior to US involvement.

hawk

I kind of think it must be like finding all of his jets buried in the sand. Who knows, one day, maybe all the sand will blow away biggrin That is of course they really did get to Iran and Syria.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/21/08 04:22 PM
Well, not *everyone* believed Hussein had WMDs or that we should go to war.

Believe me or not, and I don't really care, but I'm telling the complete and honest truth when I say that I, back in 2002/early 2003, when we were gearing up for war, never believed Iraq had WMDs, or that we should go to war.

Let's see...at the time, I would've been.. 15 and 16 years old? If a 15 year old could be right on both counts, then I don't see why other, older, more educated and interested people have an excuse for being wrong. I roundly condemned the war, and was roundly viewed as being "extremely liberal" and "unpatriotic" by most of my sheep-mentality classmates.

I remember one time in Spanish class we all got into it, a lot of people yelling at me because I was so stupid to believe that Iraq didn't have WMDs. Perhaps a bit too bold, I said something to the effect of "Well, it'll all come to light in the end, and we'll see who's right and who's wrong...and I absolutely guarantee I will be right and you'll all look foolish." Well, looky looky! I was right after all!

My point is that I just don't buy the idea that every single person bought the orchestrated political agenda which was being pushed on the American people. I didn't, and I knew plenty of people who didn't buy it either (my parents, for example).

Alexis
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? - 06/23/08 05:40 PM
Hi,

Originally Posted by Mexican
Dear Memo:

I said "most Protestant baptisms" because as you know, in our country, most Protestants belong to the modern sectarian groups (Evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc.).


Yes, I know that about our country, and that is the point I wanted to make.

In our country, we put together, under the umbrella of "Protestantism" all the non-apostolic Christian (and even the semi-Christian) denominations.

Many members of the Communities of the Reform (Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.) would actually take issue at us lumping them up with Pentecostals or Brother Aaron's "Luz del Mundo".

Shalom,
Memo
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