www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Pani Rose Joe the Plumber - 10/17/08 08:50 PM
This guy has aspirations and I can't believe the union is going after him for being on the news and such. So very sad!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27221645
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/18/08 01:27 AM
Oh, Pani, you didn't! wink

If Joe thinks he's gonna be making over $250,000 a year in taxable income, I have some Lehman Brothers stock to sell him.

Alexis
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/18/08 04:49 AM
There is a valid question of revenue and profit, and what would be taxable and which of the two he was referring to.

It is difficult for a candidate to be elected president to the United States after admitting his intentions of "spreading the wealth." That ideology does not fare well with the average voter and including that with the image of raising our taxes will not help either.

I believe that may explain part of why the media would like to focus on Joe the Plumber's credibility. Too many pundits who are commenting and opining on Joe have their heads buried in the sand. They can't relate to him and treat him like a foreign object, something which can be interesting to observe. Some go as far as to communicate with the tone of contentment in their voice something like, "Oh, look, he speaks so confidently. He doesn't even realize how uneducated he is."

Alexis, don't be too surprised if the results of this election don't go your way.

Terry
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/19/08 04:35 PM
Terry,

I think you may take me for a fool!

Believe me, I think this election will be very close. And I think it would've been had Joe the Pseudo-plumber never existed, or even without those lovely McCain robo calls.

Your admonition to me not to be surprised if the election doesn't go my "way" is sort of like admonishing me not to be surprised if it rains tomorrow. I'm not really expecting it, I hope it doesn't, but there's a 40-something-percent chance it could happen and I wouldn't be all that shocked. wink

Alexis
Posted By: John C. Hathaway Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/20/08 05:25 AM
Ironically, though, this is the one area in which I agree with Obama, but only because he's saying what the Popes have already called for.

To paraphrase (or directly quote, but I'm not certain) Bl. John XXIII, a person has the right to private property, but not to everything he wants. He has the right to a residence, but not necessarily to a mansion.

Workers have the right to own their own means of production, and if "Joe the Plumber" wants to own his own business, more power to him--and, yes, the tax code should not be set up so as to impede him from doing so.

But he should own his own business for the personal satisfaction of participating in God's creation. He should own his own business to be able to meet his family's livelihood and do good for the community as he freely chooses to. But that does not mean that he has the right to personally profit to the tune of $250,000 a year.

If he's making that much per year, as profit on the operating budget of his business, then how much is he charging the people he works for?
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 02:34 AM
Joe the Plumer is on Hanity and Combs tonight, see what he has to say about all of this.
Posted By: dwight Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 02:55 AM
Personally I would be very happy to have 250,000 dollars in taxable income.
I have also had occassion to hire a plumber at 75 dollars an hour. I actually rather hope he pays some taxes.
Posted By: theophan Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 03:02 AM
Since I've been in the small business environment for the whole of my life, I just shook my head at all the ignorance that gets batted about in the media about money in business.

A quarter million dollars in revenue doesn't come anywhere close to being income. After paying for materials, business overhead, employees' salaries and benefits and matching Social Security taxes, there may or may not be anything left over for the sole proprietor. And, as anyone will tell you, the employees must come first in the payouts from gross revenue.

But to the average media type--and politician--that has no idea of business and accounting, it sounds so great to go after someone who has a bigger pile of cash than he has. Makes for lots of jealousy, too, if you base your ideology on promoting class conflict in order to win votes.

BOB
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 03:40 AM
I agree, Bob. Joe's idea that he's gonna be earning $250,000 a year in taxable income is very naive.

Alexis
Posted By: Administrator Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 03:49 AM
I agree that Joe the Plumber might not see a taxable income of $250,000 for a long time. If he does work hard to get to that level, however, the government should not take it from him. Socialism does not work. It only succeeds in spreading misery to everyone.
Posted By: dwight Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 04:04 AM
I said taxable income. That is what is left after business expenses. I made the horrible error of owning a small business years ago and never did manage to make a penny from it. If Joe has 250,000 in cash flow he may well be in trouble. But I would have been very pleased to have 250,000 left after wages, social security and every other expense one incurs in business.
Posted By: dwight Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 04:09 AM
I also freely admit I am not a good business person.
Posted By: MrsMW Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 04:13 AM
Socialism is not Christian. Neither is class envy.

Higher taxes also make it harder for women like me to stay home. Oh I'll get free state run daycare when I am forced to go to work. Great then my children will learn about all kinds of imorality and I'll not be able to object. Higher taxes also make it harder to send my children to Catholic schools.

My husband works very hard for what he gets. The more we have the more we give.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 05:21 AM
MrsMW, you are a generous person. A lot of people don't give - and the more they have, the more debt they incur (caused by buying more stuff they don't need.)
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 06:01 PM
"But that does not mean that he has the right to personally profit to the tune of $250,000 a year. - John C. Hathaway"

John,

That claim is interesting. If it is just to cap personal profit, how would such a "just wage cap" be enforced? At what point should wages be deemed "excessive", and by whom shall it be so deemed?

This perception can give hope to the Leninist-Marxists and the Neo-Marxists in our country. Perhaps revolution is not so far away.

Terry
Posted By: theophan Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 06:25 PM
ALEXIS:

If "Joe the Plumber" thinks he's going to make that kind of money, he's in for a big surprise. I'd love to be his bookkeeper. I'd even settle for being in the office when his accountant lets him know there's no paycheck for him because of the anticipated tax increases we can expect this coming January no matter who is in the White House. laugh

BOB
Posted By: theophan Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 06:32 PM
Quote
"But that does not mean that he has the right to personally profit to the tune of $250,000 a year. - John C. Hathaway"


JOHN:

Where do we find the idea that profits are something associated with "rights"? If a man takes a risk and finally comes up with a profit like that, who is to say that he does not deserve it or have a "right" to it?

I worked for a man for many years who was paying for the professional practice that we both derived our living from. Because of the high mortgage payments he had, I made more than he did. His "salary" was pumped into his mortgage payment and his "draw" was $212.20 per week for 15 years. His wife worked to support the family and his hope was that he could sell the practice after it was paid in full for his retirement. But for those working years until he was finished, he had barely enough for coffee and lunch each week. IMHO, if he made a profit on selling the place and had a quarter million over what he'd paid for the place, he had earned it. We worked some long hours--typically 60+ per week and there was no OT, just salary. But he paid me well over triple what he was drawing and always made sure I was paid first--and I mean take-home after taxes and withholding. So, again, if he made a quarter million at sale, I say God bless him.

BOB
Posted By: dwight Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 07:41 PM
Is Joe the Plumber a business owner? Or is he just earning a wage. If he owns the business he is probably in very deep financial trouble and wont owe any income tax but will be destroyed by social security and workmans comp payments. If he is grossing 250,000 a year as a wage earner I think he needs someone to take care of his money for him if he cant make ends meet.
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 08:02 PM
He is earing a wage and has an ambition to take over his employer's business. He spoke very clearly to Obama and has spoken very clearly in recent interviews. From how he has been speaking, he would be owning a business which has a yearly revenue exceeding $250,000.

None of the attacks against Joe the Plumber's credibility have changed the answer Obama gave him. There are many people who don't want him spreading the wealth.

Terry

Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 09:21 PM
No, perhaps taxing wealthier people to a higher degree is not fair, outside of a vacuum. But neither are the economic policies of the last eight years, which have served the very wealthy to the extreme disadvantage of the middle- and lower-classes. I think that is more unfair, since many of these people lack far more important things than BMWs and third homes; they can't afford things like healthcare, life insurance, gasoline, etc.

And so although I do concede that taxing the top 5% of our nation moreso than others is perhaps not optimal, maybe, just maybe, it will make a small dent in the grossly unfair economic policies of the last many years.

Alexis
Posted By: Pustinik Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 09:29 PM
This may interest some:

"A Catholic Shift to Obama?" by E.J. Dionne, Jr.

from one of today's newspapers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0/AR2008102002290.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Peace be with you,
Pustinik
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/21/08 11:27 PM
What in particular has been unfair, that some have and others have not?

Terry
Posted By: theophan Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/22/08 12:32 AM
TERRY:

I think you're right on the money.

We have equality of opportunity, not of outcomes. Another point that was made by an economist is that in America the top 5% keeps moving. Some who are in it for a few years move down as they retire or lose their jobs. At one time or another people may temporarily be in that top 5% but rarely do people stay there in terms of income.

Then the debate shifts to the jealousy over people who have inherited wealth, not income. But they're different.

Personally, I think the problem is that our post-Christian civilization has forgotten the generosity that the Church teaches as part of being a follower of Christ. OTOH, we cannot force generosity and sharing our gifts by government fiat. St. Basil says that our abundance is the voluntary storehouse of the poor. But he doesn't say that the government is the steward of it--we are. It's only to the extent that we have absorbed ideas from 19th century socialists that we have moved to the idea that it si the job of government to redistribute what some of us earn becasue we earn more than others. For the Christian, the story of the rich man and Lazarus ought to be in the forefront of our minds. But we, too, need constant reminders.

Back to Joe the Plumber. If I do the math, he earns $125.00 per hour?!? If so, his boss' business must be in Washington, DC, among the wealthy politicans or in Beverly Hills. I can assure you that the boss is charging double that in order to have overhead covered. It costs the employer 50% more than a person is paid to keep him--SSA matching payments, Workers Comp, health insurance, and a long list of other benefits usually attached to the highest earners. Who could afford a plumber at $125.00 per hour? I think I'd have to dig an outhouse.

In Christ,

BOB

Posted By: Stephanos I Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/22/08 06:33 AM
Amen Amen Amen we cannot afford any leftist socialist at all!!!
Stephanos I
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: Joe the Plumber - 10/22/08 12:45 PM
Fr. Stephanos,

What do you think of the claim that socialist is a "code word" for black? I thought it a rather strange argument. Perhaps the author of the argument was confusing Karl Marx with Carl Winslow.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081021115806.aspx

Terry
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