www.byzcath.org
Lisbon 'fine by us' says bishop

A senior Irish Catholic bishop has said Roman Catholics can vote "Yes" to the Lisbon Treaty "in good conscience".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8260836.stm

I think that making Europe totally one nation will not only make Ireland one but will be really good for all of Europe in the long run.
ummm

Any comments Fr Serge ?
You'll be very sorry. The EU is one of the most repressive, secularist, and anti-democratic institutions in existence, and if Ireland votes for the Lisbon Treaty (it's actually a constitution, not particularly different from the constitution Ireland rejected), it will mean the end of Irish identity, and sooner rather than later. How a Catholic bishop could support the treaty, which is not only hostile to religion generally and Christianity in particular, but which violates the Church's principal of subsidiarity by drawing all authority to the (unelected) commission in Brussels, staggers my imagination.

And just to show I am not speaking out of my hat, I am a Senior Research Fellow at the Johns Hopkins University-SAIS Center For Transatlantic Relations, which is the designated EU Center of Excellence in the United States. I have had extensive dealings with members of the Commission, the European Parliament and various European governments over the past eight years, and have picked up a thing or two in that time.
Ditto StuartK
The only reason the USA is so anti the EU is the money. The states of North America can unite to form the USA and thats OK. The states of Europe unite to deal with the Americans and their trading practices and thats not OK.

The USA made it very clear to the Australian governments what was to happen in our economy, or we would be penalised in any trade with the USA. So under instruction we sold of profitable and efficient state owned enterprises, which now privatised don't deliver the services they once did.

This happened to almost every country they signed up all around the world. Basically let us buy you up cheap, or you will be excluded from the USA market.
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The only reason the USA is so anti the EU is the money.

What about the Czechs, the Poles, the Romanians, the Danes, and of course, the Irish? Are their problems with the EU due to U.S. pressure as well?

Other than that, your post reveals a startling lack of knowledge of international trade relations.
Here, for example, is a report on Czech President Vaclav Klaus on the pitfalls of European integration. [europarl.europa.eu]


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Czech President Václav Klaus questions ever closer European political integration in speech to the European Parliament
Institutions
- 19-02-2009 - 14:26

President of the Czech Republic Vaclav Klaus addresses the EP in Brussels

The Lisbon Treaty would worsen the EU's democratic deficit, argued Czech President Klaus in a speech to the EP, in which he questioned the role of the EP itself. EP President Pöttering responded by describing Mr Klaus's views as "an expression of the diversity in Europe" and pointed out that "in a democracy it's the view of the majority that counts". Without the EP, Europe would be in the hands of bureaucrats, he cautioned. A wide majority of MEPs strongly welcomed Mr Pöttering's response.

President Klaus, addressing a formal sitting of the House in Brussels in his role as head of state of the country holding the EU's six-month rotating presidency, chose to speak on what he called "issues of extraordinary importance for the further development of the European integration project".

The Czech Republic, he said, knew full well that when it joined the EU "it was not a utopian construction, put together without authentic human interests, visions, views and ideas". He added "for us there was and there is no alternative to European Union membership". "We have therefore been really hurt by the repeated and growing attacks we have been facing; attacks based on the unfounded assumption that the Czechs are searching for some other integration project than the one they became members of five years ago. This is not true".

The key tasks of European integration, said the Czech president, were "to remove unnecessary - and for human freedom and prosperity counterproductive - barriers to the free movement of people, goods, services, ideas…" and "a joint care of public goods at continental level".

Decision-making in Brussels not always best, says Czech President

However, he then questioned whether decision-making in Brussels was always the best way to achieve these goals, and asked MEPs "are you really convinced that every time you take a vote, you are deciding something that must be decided here in this Chamber and not closer to the citizens, i.e. inside the individual European states?".

Developing his theme, Mr Klaus explained that while there was no alternative to EU membership, "the methods and forms of European integration do, on the contrary, have quite a number of possible and legitimate variants". Moreover, "claiming that the status quo, the present institutional form of the EU, is forever uncriticisable dogma, is a mistake", as is the assumption that "there is only one possible and correct future for European integration, which is 'ever-closer Union'".

Any given institutional arrangement should be seen merely as a means to the ends of "human freedom and an economic system that brings prosperity", with a market economy being the key tool for achieving this.

No real opposition in the European Parliament, says Klaus

The Czech President argued that "the present decision-making system in the European Union is different from a classic parliamentary democracy, tried and tested by history. In a normal parliamentary system, part of the MPs support the government and part support the opposition. In the European Parliament this arrangement has been missing. Here only one single option is being promoted and those who dare think about a different option are labelled enemies of European integration."

In addition, he continued, there is "a great distance (not only in a geographical sense) between citizens and Union representatives, which is much greater than inside the Member countries. This distance is often described as the democratic deficit, the loss of democratic accountability" and in Mr Klaus' view, "the proposals to change the current state of affairs - included in the rejected European Constitution or in the not very different Lisbon Treaty - would make this defect even worse".

Warming to his theme, the president maintained "Since there is no European demos - and no European nation - this defect cannot be solved by strengthening the role of the European Parliament either". (Note: At this point a number of MEPs walked out of the Chamber)

Mr Klaus believed that "attempts to speed up and deepen integration" could "endanger all the positive things achieved in Europe in the last half a century" and he urged that the situation must not be allowed "where the citizens of Member countries would live their lives with a resigned feeling that the EU is not their own, that it is developing differently than they would wish, that they are only forced to accept it".

Priority to the market economy

Turning to economic aspects, he argued that "the present economic system of the EU is a system of a suppressed market, a system of a permanently strengthening centrally controlled economy" and called instead for "liberalisation and deregulation of the European economy".

Free debate the best way to solve disagreement

Concluding the Czech President told the House "I say all of this because I do feel a strong responsibility for the democratic and prosperous future of Europe", adding "the most important task is to make sure that free discussion about these problems is not silenced as an attack on the very idea of European integration".

EP President responds

In his introduction, Parliament's President Hans-Gert Pöttering had described the Czech nation as being historically "the beating heart of European thinking". He highlighted the approval of the Lisbon Treaty, by a large majority, in the Lower House of the Czech Parliament earlier this week and he also praised Mr Klaus as an "advocate of a free, effective market economy".

After Mr Klaus had delivered his speech, Mr Pöttering responded by saying that Mr Klaus was only able to speak in this way because "we live in European democracy where everyone can express his or her own opinion. In a "Parliament of the past" you wouldn't have been able to give this speech". He thanked the Czech president for his visit, describing it as "an expression of the diversity in Europe" but pointed out that "in a democracy it's the view of the majority that counts".

The full text of Klaus' speech can be found here. [europarl.europa.eu]

One World Government here we come.
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
ummm

Any comments Fr Serge ?

From the title, I'd thought that it was about *Irish* full unification.

And my views on *that* subject probably make Fr. Serge's look downright moderate!

hawk
Alas. It is indeed an imperfect world.
Membership in both the EU and NATO has had rather beneficial results for Lithuania, the land of my ancestors.
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Membership in both the EU and NATO has had rather beneficial results for Lithuania, the land of my ancestors.

In Eastern European countries, NATO membership has been seen as the essential guarantee of their security against Russian irredentism. It is important to recognize, however, that to them--and this is very much the reality--NATO means the United States, and if Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty is ever invoked by one of them, they are actually calling upon the United States to defend them against Russian aggression. None of the Eastern European military or government officials with whom I have spoken over the last four or five years has any faith whatsoever in the ability of Brussels to provide collective security.

The Obama Administration's failure to support its Eastern European allies, its reneging on plans to deploy missile defenses in Poland, and its desire to "reset" relations in Russia at the expense of Eastern European autonomy, is beginning to undermine their faith in the United States and NATO, too.

With regard to the EU generally, support for the "European" project generally comes from a transnational business and government elite, very much analogous to the the French-speaking transnational aristocracy of the 18th century. These people have the same background, the same education, and share the same socio-political beliefs, which are very different from those of the ordinary people of the countries from which they come. They are "post-nationalist" and believe in the technocratic state. Ordinary citizens are not.

I have yet to meet an ordinary European, even in France or Germany, who is not, at best, deeply ambivalent about the European Union. While many--especially in the poorer states--are deeply grateful for EU development money and agricultural subsidies, they resist the strings that come with it and the constant meddling and interference of the Commission. Eastern Europeans especially echo the sentiments of Vaclav Klaus that they did not finally get free of hard totalitarian bonds of the Warsaw Pact just to trade them in for the soft authoritarianism of the European Commission.

The economic crisis of 2008 did much to shake the confidence of even the most Eurocentric Europeans as the problems of a "one size fits all" financial policy hit home and the members states reverted to an "every man for himself" outlook on economic policy. Eastern Europe was particularly hard hit and disillusioned by the failure of EU support.

As the anti-democratic aspects of the Union's political project become more apparent, support for European federation decreases, though most Europeans are willing to allow the EU to revert to its original concept of an integrated economic and financial market--albeit one that is far less smothering in its regulatory regime (must there be a European law regulating the curvature of bananas?).
Father Serge's first comment is that I am amazed that a bishop has had the nerve to say what he did on a secular matter. If I had given my opinion in the public press, I would have been sternly reminded that the clergy are supposed to keep their mouths shut about politics. Is the bishop not a cleric?

My second comment is that the EU is a sort of "secular Empire", and Ireland has no reason to expect anything good from such an arrangement.

Finally (for the moment), Ireland needs to maintain national unity; to regain a broad use of our language and a much broader appreciation of our own culture - and, for that matter, control over our own economy. The EU offers us none of the above.

Fr. Serge
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My second comment is that the EU is a sort of "secular Empire"

One that has all the bad elements of empire and none of the good ones.
Better for Ireland to align itself with Russia than the 10 headed Beast of the EU, lest one of the last Christian countries of Europe gets swallowed by the Leviathan of secular humanism, the Gospel of the EU.

Alexandr
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Better for Ireland to align itself with Russia.

Well, watch out for the day that Russia gives passports to all the Eastern Europeans working in Ireland and then demands the right to station a "peacekeeping force" on Irish soil to protect the interests of the "ethnic Russian minority".
If a "peacekeeping force" on Irish soil will get our unwanted neighbors out, it might be worth trying!

Fr. Serge
And who would your "unwanted neighbors" be, Father?
Stuart,

Originally Posted by StuartK
And just to show I am not speaking out of my hat, I am a Senior Research Fellow at the Johns Hopkins University-SAIS Center For Transatlantic Relations, which is the designated EU Center of Excellence in the United States. I have had extensive dealings with members of the Commission, the European Parliament and various European governments over the past eight years, and have picked up a thing or two in that time.

And since this is neither the Johns Hopkins University-SAIS Center for Teansatlantic Relations, nor a designated EU Center of Excellence in the US, you are just another forum member with an opinion. Your credentials do not entitle you to insult other members with lines such as ...

Originally Posted by StuartK
Other than that, your post reveals a startling lack of knowledge of international trade relations.

I strongly suggest that you temper your posting style.

Neil
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I strongly suggest that you temper your posting style.

Does Pavel Ivanovich warrant similar chastisement for his intemperate missive:

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The only reason the USA is so anti the EU is the money. The states of North America can unite to form the USA and thats OK. The states of Europe unite to deal with the Americans and their trading practices and thats not OK.

The USA made it very clear to the Australian governments what was to happen in our economy, or we would be penalised in any trade with the USA. So under instruction we sold of profitable and efficient state owned enterprises, which now privatised don't deliver the services they once did.

This happened to almost every country they signed up all around the world. Basically let us buy you up cheap, or you will be excluded from the USA market.

I may be just another member of the forum, but I cannot ignore what are, after all, inflammatory and false remarks.
Stuart,

Pavel's commemts express his opinion - you may consider them inflammatory or false, and you are free to respond to them - but, his remarks are not directed at another member. They do not patronize, belittle, speak down to, or otherwise seek to overwhelm anyone by using credentials as a means to make clear that you speak from great authority and his post is just so many keystrokes.

Whether you choose to recognize it or not, your posting style is antithetical to the entire notion of constructive dialogue - which is a big part of what this forum is about.

Five years ago, I posted the following in a thread here - I think it is still true:

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The beauty of this Forum is who we are and what we bring to it. Pedantic, argumentative posts that seek to overwhelm the reader and aggressively impugn the sincerity of (others) ... are an unwelcome intrusion into what is truly its own community of faith.

... We know we have differences of belief between and among us and that the baggage of history comes with a heavy price. But, I for one, and I suspect many others here - if not most, cherish the faith, the sincerity, the forthrightness, and the honesty of our brothers and sisters, and the opportunity to dialogue with them, even when we disagree. You, on the other hand, see only black and white and seem to have no appreciation for the fact that gray is within the spectrum.

...

My point: we are people here and, for most of us, that is as or more important than rabid ideology. To disagree or post an opposing view is one thing; to deluge the Forum with massive amounts of material and to harangue is another. ...

Neil
Stuart asks me:

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And who would your "unwanted neighbors" be, Father?

Such a question! "Them Ones", of course.

Fr. Serge
I recommend a very interesting book called Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland [amazon.com] by Bryan Sykes. He conducted a genetic survey of tens of thousands of people in the UK and Ireland in an effort to determine how the various populations came to be where and what they are (Sykes was the scientist who did the genetic analysis of the so-called Cheddar Man and found a direct descendent of the 9,000-year old skeleton living within a stone's throw of the cave where it was found). Very interesting, and likely to have a bearing on who the British and Irish call "Us" and "Them".
Alas, the expression "Them Ones" is not used with specific reference to genetics!

But if it's any consolation, there has been some fascinating research on the remote origin of the Aran Islanders.

Fr. Serge
I was being serious. The Irish are really displaced Slavs.
The distinction in Carpatho-Russian between ona jest and ona byva (“she is” and “she habitually is” or “she is in the habit of being”), i.e. between the present and present habitual tenses, corresponds exactly to the Irish tá sí and bíonn sí. This distinction is not found verbally in English, French or German, but is present in other Celtic languages such as Welsh, Breton, Scottish Gaelic, and in other Slavic languages. There are effectively 3 forms of the verb “to be”, for example:

I am Irish: Is Gael mé.
I am tired: Tá tuirse orm (lit. “is tiredness on me”)
I am here every day: Bím anseo gach lá.

Both Carpatho_Russian and Irish have a fondness for palatalisation: the palatal quality of the consonant “n” in the CR word nie corresponds to the “n” of the Irish word níl, “there is not”.

Finally a number of verbal endings, such as the first person singular, present tense, and the second person singular, past tense, are pronounced similarly in both languages:

CR: jestem (I am now) byvam (I am usually) by a (you were)

Irish: táim (I am now) bím (I am usually) bhís (you were)

If you think about it, the similarities in most aspects outweigh the differences.

Alexandr
Habitual aspect is actually fairly common in Indo-European languages.

Don't spoil the beauty of the thing with technicalities.
Originally Posted by dochawk
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
ummm

Any comments Fr Serge ?

From the title, I'd thought that it was about *Irish* full unification.

And my views on *that* subject probably make Fr. Serge's look downright moderate!

hawk
When Europe truly integrates Ireland will be whole again. And it will be one with Britain and all of Europe in one country.
Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
If a "peacekeeping force" on Irish soil will get our unwanted neighbors out, it might be worth trying!

Fr. Serge
Who are you talking about? The immigrants?
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When Europe truly integrates Ireland will be whole again. And it will be one with Britain and all of Europe in one country.

Where is the European demos, to paraphrase Vaclav Klaus?
I think Fr. Serge is refering to the Brits getting out of Northern Ireland and allowing the Irish to manage their own affairs.
I talked to an Irish Marist priest once who felt that Éire [en.wikipedia.org] should invade Northern Ireland, so that the NI conflict would become an international conflict, complete with UN peacekeepers.

Frankly, I don't agree. I think the people of Northern Ireland have to work out things for themselves.
It's pretty much worked out. Once the Republic became wealthier than Belfast, the immigrant flow began to run the other way. Why would the Republic want Belfast now? And, inter alia, how long do the Protestant Scots-Irish have to be in Ireland before they are officially Irish? Since the Scots originally came from Ireland, do they have a "right of return"?

I was not refering to the Scots-Irish only the British government.
Well, insofar as Northern Ireland was established at the behest of the Protestant majority of Belfast, and insofar as the British government remained there from the 1960s through the 1990s mainly to protect the Catholic minority, I don't see quite how the British could not be there today. Would those who want a united Ireland override the wishes of the majority of the population in the North in order to impose unity?

History is not something that can simply be ignored or overwritten, and though it may irk Irish patriots, the division was probably the only workable solution at the time, and the one with which everybody is stuck. Instead of bearing old resentments, perhaps a modus vivendi between the Republic and the North will, over time (a very long time, since 300 years of history cannot be forgotten overnight) allow for the gradual reunification of the country.

In the meanwhile, it is silly to think of the British government as being "unwanted neighbors"--they are there because the residents of Belfast want them there. And when they no longer want them there, I am sure the British government will let it go most expeditiously, as it costs the United Kingdom more to keep it than it brings in.
Dear Stuart,

Sorry, but you've been taken in by some mythology:

1. "Northern Ireland was established at the behest of the Protestant majority of Belfast". Not so - and if it had been so one could sensibly ask why a majority of the inhabitants of Belfast should be able to dictate the allegiance of six counties.

The partition of Ireland was not wanted by much of anybody in the Irish population - the large majority wanted independence; a relatively small minority wanted Ireland to remain a part of the "United Kingdom".

2. "the British government remained there from the 1960s through the 1990s mainly to protect the Catholic minority"! The Catholics of the six counties neither need nor want British protection. All they ask of the British is that the British should go away.

3. "Would those who want a united Ireland override the wishes of the majority of the population in the North in order to impose unity?" What majority and where? What England calls "the North" consists of six counties. Of those six counties, British census figures inform us that 1.5 counties have a Protestant majority; 4.5 counties have a Catholic majority. Since when is 1.5 a majority of 6?

County Donegal is part of the Republic. It is also mostly to the North of what England calls "Northern Ireland".

3. "History is not something that can simply be ignored or overwritten" - quite true, so how come we are repeatedly told that we should forget our own history?

4. "the division was probably the only workable solution at the time, and the one with which everybody is stuck". There is no reason to believe that partition was the only workable solution. Nobody in the Republic (then called the "Free State" then or since has been carrying on pogroms against Protestants, burning Protestant places of worship, or discriminating against people on religious grounds.

We are stuck with partition at the immediate moment because England wants it that way.

5. "300 years of history cannot be forgotten overnight" - England first invaded Ireland well over 800 years ago, and keeps refusing to go away.

6. The English "are there because the residents of Belfast want them there"? Check the data again; demographics do change from time to time. The gerrymandering is becoming more and more difficult, which is why Nationalist political parties in the Six Counties keep increasing their vote.

But again, what do the desires of Belfast have to do with the matter? Nobody will argue that Derry City has a large Catholic majority, and that the majority does not want the English cluttering up the place. So why are the English still occupying Derry?

And so on.

Fr. Serge
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The partition of Ireland was not wanted by much of anybody in the Irish population - the large majority wanted independence; a relatively small minority wanted Ireland to remain a part of the "United Kingdom".

That minority was mainly located in the provinces that became Northern Ireland. Whether you believe their reasons for wanting to remain within the United Kingdom were legitimate or not, the Protestant minority of Ireland would have resisted incorporation into the Republic with violence. Partition of countries on ethnic or religious lines is a common enough phenomenon in cases where geography and sectarian lines do not correspond. Not a perfect solution by any means, but one which is often necessary to ensure peace and stability. Would the Republic have been able to develop as it did if it had to deal with a simmering Protestant insurgency for decades--remembering that the Irish invented and pretty much wrote the rules on urban guerrilla?

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The Catholics of the six counties neither need nor want British protection. All they ask of the British is that the British should go away.


But, being the legal authority in Northern Ireland, the British government had both a moral and a legal obligation to maintain order and prevent both sides from killing each other. Their initial approach might have been ham-fisted, but over time the British did in fact succeed, and mainly by adopting a policy of remarkable self-restraint in which soldiers interposed themselves between terrorists on both sides.

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What England calls "the North" consists of six counties. Of those six counties, British census figures inform us that 1.5 counties have a Protestant majority; 4.5 counties have a Catholic majority. Since when is 1.5 a majority of 6?

It's not the demography of the individual counties that matter, but that of the overall region. When the partition was made--and Irish politicians were also involved with that decision--it would appear that the six counties were considered to be a single political entity. The decision was made, and for the Republic, at least, it worked out quite well.

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County Donegal is part of the Republic. It is also mostly to the North of what England calls "Northern Ireland"
.

That's like saying Detroit is north of Windsor, so it should be part of Ontario. Donegal was, for reasons the negotiators at the time thought valid, not part of the entity called Northern Ireland.

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quite true, so how come we are repeatedly told that we should forget our own history?


No one says the Irish should forget their history. Indeed, they should remember it--as it was, not as some would like it to be. To be a useful guide, history has to be viewed as objectively as possible, warts and all, with a minimum of myth-making. An historian once said that "a nation is a group of people who share a common misconception about their own origins". There is something to that. If the Irish looked at their history, they would recognize that not everything can be laid at the feet of the English, and also the limits of both the possible and the desirable in the future development of their country.

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There is no reason to believe that partition was the only workable solution. Nobody in the Republic (then called the "Free State" then or since has been carrying on pogroms against Protestants, burning Protestant places of worship, or discriminating against people on religious grounds.

But the Protestants thought it would be so, and were adamantly opposed to incorporation into the Free State, so the British were faced with the choice of either forcibly jettisoning them or submitting to their legitimate wish to be British. If the British had left Ireland altogether, there probably would have been a civil war in Ireland lasting for decades.

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We are stuck with partition at the immediate moment because England wants it that way.

I seriously doubt that, given the devolutionary forces that have granted increasing autonomy to both Scotland and Wales, not to mention the net drain of Northern Ireland on the British treasury. But withdrawal would be wildly unpopular among a majority of the residents of Northern Ireland, thus socially and politically destabilizing, which would probably result in a return of "the Troubles". I for one am firmly convinced that the underlying social causes of sectarian violence were not eliminated by the Mitchell Agreement (which I also think had nothing to do with the end of the war), but the changing economic situation in Ireland papered over them for the time being. It would be extremely reckless to overturn the applecart at this point.

At some point, though, assuming that Ireland regains its prosperity (likely, since there was nothing structurally wrong with Ireland's economy or its economic policies, as opposed to those in some other European countries), the idea of assimilating Northern Ireland into the Republic will become more popular. When it does, a simple plebescite ought to be enough to get the Brits out of Ireland faster than you can say Erin go Bragh. Because the British ruling classes certainly don't want to be there, but feel they have to be there.

C
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heck the data again; demographics do change from time to time. The gerrymandering is becoming more and more difficult, which is why Nationalist political parties in the Six Counties keep increasing their vote.


Exactly. At some time there will come a tipping point, and incorporation can be achieved peacefully through democratic means. The important thing is not to force the issue. History tells us attempts to rush the process usually results in violence.

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But again, what do the desires of Belfast have to do with the matter? Nobody will argue that Derry City has a large Catholic majority, and that the majority does not want the English cluttering up the place. So why are the English still occupying Derry?


Probably a recognition that incorporation cannot proceed piecemeal, but must be done with all six counties simultaneously.

I do not say that the British should remain in Ireland, or that the present situation is ideal, only that a problem three centuries in the making cannot be solved by fiat, and that politicians on both sides need to move cautiously and prudently.

I also think the Irish ought to be careful what they wish for. West Germans from 1945 to 1989 thought of nothing but reunification. They got it, and now a majority of West Germans regret that decision, seeing the Osties as being lazy, corrupt, and a net drain on Germany. South Korea looks forward to a reunification with the North, but when they get it, they may find the costs of reunification greatly exceed any actual or even perceived benefits. If and when Ireland reintegrates the six provinces, it may discover it has traded one set of problems and disadvantages for another--particularly if Britain cannot effectively revitalize the industrial base of the North.
I should also point out that both Father Serge and I seem to be in firm agreement that any "unification" that results from "federation" under the EU would be no unification at all, but a total loss of Irish nationhood and identity. All that makes Ireland unique would be lost in a flurry of dictats from Brussels.
Dear Stuart,

Here we go again:

1. "the Protestant minority of Ireland would have resisted incorporation into the Republic with violence". That might have been true in 1912; there is no reason to believe that it was true after World War I. Since you offer no reason to believe your statement, there is no need for me to offer any reason for my rejection of that statement!

2. "Would the Republic have been able to develop as it did if it had to deal with a simmering Protestant insurgency for decades--remembering that the Irish invented and pretty much wrote the rules on urban guerrilla?"
a) we still have no evidence to show the likelihood of such a "simmering Protestant insurgency for decades". However,
b) thanks for the compliment on Irish expertise on urban guerilla [warfare]!


3. "over time the British did in fact succeed, and mainly by adopting a policy of remarkable self-restraint in which soldiers interposed themselves between terrorists on both sides."

Which decade would you propose as exemplary of this alleged "remarkable self-restraint"?

4. "it would appear that the six counties were considered to be a single political entity." In this case, the appearance is not even an illusion. There was no such "single political entity" of the six counties until the English government imposed partition.

5. Ontario is not and never has been defined as "Northern USA", nor was it created by a partition of Michigan!

6. "No one says the Irish should forget their history." Would that this were true! Our national enemy actively wants us to forget our own history - along with our language and our Church - because as long as we remember who we are, we represent some sort of threat.

7. to be continued - after my lunch.
Scottish people are really Irish???
I am proud that my son has an Irish fringe: http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs152.snc1/5650_516283302786_82500158_30704860_2571772_n.jpg
http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs203.snc1/7029_516818774696_82500158_30722936_1497279_n.jpg
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That might have been true in 1912; there is no reason to believe that it was true after World War I. Since you offer no reason to believe your statement, there is no need for me to offer any reason for my rejection of that statement!

A very difficult thing to prove one way or the other, insofar as people did not offer opinions freely on such matters. Faced with the reality of governance from an overtly Catholic government, how would the Orangemen have reacted?

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a) we still have no evidence to show the likelihood of such a "simmering Protestant insurgency for decades". However,
b) thanks for the compliment on Irish expertise on urban guerilla [warfare]!

On (a) see above. On (b), the tactics developed by Michael Collins and his associates are still the fundamental handbook for urban guerrilla (I may be pedantic, but "guerrilla warfare" means, literally, "little war warfare"). I certainly study it, and I know that it read at the U.S. Command and General Staff College, among other places.

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Which decade would you propose as exemplary of this alleged "remarkable self-restraint"?

I refer you to the work of my good friend, the historian Martin van Creveld, in his book The Changing Face of War: Lessons of Combat from the Marne to Iraq, in which he devotes an entire case study to the British in Northern Ireland (pp.229-235). He points to several phases in the British attempts to suppress the Troubles, beginning in 1969, when Wilson sent in the British army to supplement the RUC. In the initial phase, the British maintained what we would call a "heavy footprint", flooding areas with troops and using firepower to suppress riots and disturbances. As van Creveld notes, in guerrilla, such tactics tend to be self-defeating, in that they (a) alienate the population and (b) demoralize the troops. After 1972, and particularly after Bloody Sunday, the British army reevaluated its tactics and came up with a new approach that emphasized working within the legal system (OK, so it was the British legal system, but for the most it operated fairly and justly), relying mainly on police rather than military forces (which required extensive screening and retraining of units such as the RUC to eliminate extremist elements from its ranks), and--in his opinion most important of all--the army imposed very strict rules of engagement that effectively precluded the use of lethal force except against specific targets in narrow circumstances that minimized the chances of civilian casualties. The British never deployed tanks or heavy weapons, relying at most on infantry small arms (but preferring non-lethal weapons whenever possible). The British eschewed collective punishment (a favorite tactic in 1920-21), and even minimized the use of arbitrary imprisonment, coercive interrogation and targeted assassinations after the 1972 Parker Commission Report.

Van Creveld points out

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This is not to say that the British operations always smelled of rose water--no counterinsurgency (and no terrorist campaign) ever does. As a celebrated film, In the Name of the Father, was to show, even within the letter of the law, the interrogation techniques used by the British authorities could be intimidating enough. Some of the troops sent to maintain order in the so-called sandbag areas were real killers--or at least that is how they were seen by their more civilianized, less aggressive RUC helpmeets. Here and there a soldier, unnerved by the ever-present, unseen and unforeseeable danger ran amok, but such cases were extremely rare. More importantly, during the thirty years the conflict lasted, there were cases in which civil liberties and human rights were violated. . . A handful of known IRA militants having been identified and tracked in foreign countries were shot, execution-style, in what has since become known as "targeted killings".

Even so, the tools used to kill the IRA terrorists in question were high-velocity sniper bullets, not air-to-ground missiles or one-ton bombs. . . The fact that evidence had to be obtained by illegal means or fabricated speaks for itself; most other counterinsurgents did not bother and still don't. On the whole, the British played by the rules. This remained true even after the terrorists had murdered the seventy-nine year old Earl of Montbatten. . . even after they had planted a bomb that demolished part of a Brighton hotel where the Prime Minister of the time, Margaret Thatcher, was due to speak; and even after they had used a van with a hole in its roof to fire mortar rounds at a cabinet meeting being held at 10 Downing Street. . . .

Whatever else might happen, the British did not allow themselves to be provoked. Hence they avoided the kind of situation in which they would beat down blindly on much weaker opponents, let alone bystanders and civilians in general. By showing restraint, the British did not alienate people other than those who were already fighting them. As events were to show, the number of IRA supporters did not increase over the years. By the mid-1990s, the organization had begun to experience difficulty in recruiting new members to take the places of those who had been killed or jailed or else had left of their own accord.

Time, it is said, will wear down anything but diamonds. If that is indeed true, then the British army proved to be a gem. Its troops, unlike those of practically everybody else, did not become demoralized. They did not take drugs, did not go AWOL or desert, did not refuse to fight, and did not turn into a danger to themselces and their officers, as happened in Vietnam. . . Instead, they were as ready to give battle on the last day of hostilities, as they had been on the first--a fact the terrorists learned to their cost.
The British experience in Northern Ireland is closely studied by the U.S. military. British officers were among the earliest and most vocal critics of U.S. tactics in Iraq in 2004-2006, and they were a great influence on General Petraeus in the formulation of the new U.S. counterinsurgency doctrine, which, like British doctrine, stresses self-restraint and population protection over the indiscriminate use of firepower to inflict casualties on the enemy.

Van Creveld contrasts the British approach in Northern Ireland to what he identifies as the only other unqualified success against insurgents since World War II--Hafez al Assad's suppression of the revolt in the Syrian city of Hama in 1982. I expect you are familiar with that ghastly episode, which succeeded because it threw off all self-restraint and was utterly ruthless and indiscriminate in the use of violence. Simon de Monfort in the Albigensian Crusade would have approved of Assad's actions in Hama.
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Scottish people are really Irish???

To a large extent, yes. The Scotti, from whom the country gets its name, were a Celtic tribe from Ireland that began raiding Caledonia (as the Romans called it) in the third century, and began settling down from the fourth century onward. They displaced the indigenous peoples, whom the Romans called indifferently "Picti", who today are found mainly above the Highland Line. Adding to the admixture of Scottish nationality, there were also waves of Saxon, Viking and Norman invasion, though in each case--if the genetic analysis is correct--these seem to have come in as a military ruling caste and never displaced the people already there.

The genes don't lie, and this makes for some startling--and sometimes disturbing discoveries. For instance, it is well known that the Japanese and the Koreas loathe each other, a legacy of centuries of invasion, oppression and racial discrimination. But genetic analysis has shown, conclusively, that the Japanese (with the exception of the indigenous Ainu) actually came to Japan from Korea. That is, the Japanese and the Koreans are the same people.

So, by the same token, the Scots and the Irish have very similar genetic ancestry.
"Viking"...would Norse be more accurate?
Originally Posted by StuartK
[quote]. Faced with the reality of governance from an overtly Catholic government, how would the Orangemen have reacted?

Probably with lots of annoying marching in what looks like road safety gear.
Originally Posted by StuartK
I refer you to the work of my good friend, the historian Martin van Creveld, ... The British never deployed tanks or heavy weapons, relying at most on infantry small arms (but preferring non-lethal weapons whenever possible). ...

Van Creveld points out

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... Even so, the tools used to kill the IRA terrorists in question were high-velocity sniper bullets, not air-to-ground missiles or one-ton bombs. . .

The points made are, overall, so ludicrous as to defy discussion and I compliment Father Serge on his willingness to engage in debate on them. However, I am unable to restrain from commenting on the above.

Tanks or heavy weapons were not an option

- where do you or your friend, Van Creveld, suggest that they might have been used?

Tanks rolling up High St in Derry City?

Call artillery in on the Bogside?

However, your friend is correct - it was high-velocity sniper bullets that killed - not air-to-ground missles or one-ton bombs - and I'll bet the dead felt better for that!

Wht poppycock!

When the British military returned to the North of Ireland in 1969, there presence was initially welcomed by many in the Catholic community, who regarded them as protectors against the mobs of radical unionists who were burning, pillaging and plundering. Irish Catholic women were photographed bringing tea to British soldiers on the street. It didn't take too long though for the British Army to wear out there welcome with the Catholic community, and by the time of Bloody Sunday in Derry, they were every bit the terrorists that OIRA and the PIRA were.
"What poppycock!"

A papered history can be folded to support many conclusions.
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"Viking"...would Norse be more accurate?

Most were Norse, apparently, though also some Swedes in the mix.
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When the British military returned to the North of Ireland in 1969, there presence was initially welcomed by many in the Catholic community, who regarded them as protectors against the mobs of radical unionists who were burning, pillaging and plundering. Irish Catholic women were photographed bringing tea to British soldiers on the street. It didn't take too long though for the British Army to wear out there welcome with the Catholic community, and by the time of Bloody Sunday in Derry, they were every bit the terrorists that OIRA and the PIRA were.

That is why a distinction must be made between British tactics in Northern Ireland before and after 1972. What you say is entirely true up through Bloody Sunday, after which, as I indicated, the British completely revamped their approach to counterinsurgency. And won.
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The points made are, overall, so ludicrous as to defy discussion and I compliment Father Serge on his willingness to engage in debate on them. However, I am unable to restrain from commenting on the above.

I could say something about revising the tone of your postings, but that might be considered "uncharitable". Let's just say you haven't read the book, you haven't reviewed the evidence, and you give no indication of having any expertise in military history, so on what do you base your dismissive attitude?

With regard to heavy weapons, in fact the British were using armored cars (real ones, not Humber "Pigs"), and in fact used automatic weapons in crowd situations, leading to heavy civilian casualties. The use of tanks was not out of the question--they have frequently been used in counter-insurgency warfare, not the least by the United States. The British indeed used heavy weapons in Ireland, both in 1916 and from 1919-1922. In the countryside not only could heavy weapons be employed fairly indiscriminately, but air strikes would not have been out of the question.

After Bloody Sunday, the British military faced a choice of how to proceed in its counterinsurgency. It could have escalated the level of violence, and undoubtedly would have inflicted very heavy casualties on the IRA; but in the process it would have inflicted many civilians casualties, which would have had the dual effect of making the IRA seem more sympathetic to the people of Northern Ireland, and caused a revulsion of public opinion at home. Insurgents usually win because they demoralize their opposition.

This occurs even when (as usual) the insurgents suffer much higher casualties than the counterinsurgents. In fact, it occurs because of it--the fight seems so unfair as to cause the counterinsurgent side to lose heart. Over time, either the military, or the political leaders, or the populace decides that the game is not worth the candle, and the war ends. Game, set, match to the insurgents.

Counterinsurgents only win when they take away the insurgents' time advantage. There are two ways they can do this, and van Creveld deals with both in two case studies. One way to circumvent time is to end the insurgency so quickly that demoralization has no chance to take hold. This can only be done if overwhelming and indiscriminate force is ruthlessly applied until the insurgents are destroyed and all their potential supporters are cowed.

This is the Hama option, as applied by Assad against the revolt in Hama in 1982. I did not describe this in detail, but it now seems that I should. In 1982, a Muslim faction rebelled against the Ba'athist regime of Hafez al Assad. The center of the revolt was Hama, a city of about 350,000 people. News of the revolt caused unrest in other cities, and Assad realized he had only a limited time in which to suppress it before the fire spread, leading to the collapse of the regime and a state of anarchy similar to that in Lebanon at that time.

Assad began by imposing a blockade of Hama, allowing nobody in or out. He then began to bombard the city, not with aircraft but with artillery, systematically leveling it block by block. After a week or so, he sent in troops to root out any survivors, which they did by tossing explosives into basements and shooting flamethrowers into sewers. When they ran into resistance, the troops fell back and the artillery bombardment began again. Finally, the troops were able to sweep all the way across of the pile of rubble that had been Hama. More than 40,000 people were killed, most from inside the Old City, from which there were only a few hundred survivors. Assad did not hide what he did; he did not apologize. Instead, he appeared on Syrian national television and made a broadcast statement showing what he had done. The incipient revolts elsewhere in the country collapsed overnight, and the name of Hama still sends a shiver of horror through the people of Syria.

That is one way to win a counterinsurgency, but as you might imagine, it is not possible for this to be used by any democratic country--the moral outrage would be too great.

That leaves the other way, which is the way used by the British in Northern Ireland after 1972. As I recounted, that way de-escalated the violence, turned over most of the day-to-day operations to the police, and treated the IRA as a criminal organization. As much as possible, the British tried to work within the structures of civil criminal law (there were exceptions, as Creveld noted), and the military were used mainly as a backstop to the police, and to provide muscle in a very limited range of situations. The British military imposed themselves between the civilians and the terrorists on both sides, and, as Creveld also noted, refused to be provoked into indiscriminate violence. And, as he says, these tactics worked: the country was largely pacified, the IRA were isolated and unable to attract recruits, and its ability to continue the struggle eliminated. This set the preconditions for a political settlement.

Now, not every military force can do what the British did. The U.S. military is currently doing this in Iraq, and is beginning to do it in Afghanistan. It requires an incredible degree of professionalism and discipline which most other armies (particularly conscript armies) lack. Since most countries are not morally or politically capable of emulating Assad's methods in Hama, and most militaries are not able to emulate the tactics of the British in Northern Ireland, they settle for a set of half measures, by turn either too lenient or too harsh, which do not win over the people, do not neutralize the insurgents, and ultimately confuse the troops (just what is our mission, anyway?) and demoralize the leadership--which is why the insurgents win so often.

This is just historical fact. Think what you want about it, but it isn't poppycock.

I'm just not seeing much of an argument for Creveld's claims. Many of the most violent incidents connected to the Troubles occured after 1972, and support for the Provos remained strong within the Catholic ghettos well into the 90's. The end of internment was a positive step, but it was too little too late, the Catholic community already viewed the British military as an army of occupation.
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Many of the most violent incidents connected to the Troubles occured after 1972, and support for the Provos remained strong within the Catholic ghettos well into the 90's.

It is true that terrorist attacks continued after 1972, but Irish civilian casualties declined (and because of effective British tactics, the IRA moved many of its operations and attack into the UK). British military casualties increased, but the ability of the IRA to conduct large scale operations inside Northern Ireland declined. At the same time, increasing cooperation among the civilian population allowed the Brits to roll up more and more IRA networks. At the end, the IRA was reduced to a handful of cells, which were extremely dangerous, and because of their small size, almost impossible to penetrate. But, from a strategic perspective, they were unable to influence events politically. The IRA lost most of its ideological context, and by the end was almost exclusively a criminal enterprise. Its operations, like that of al Qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan, alienated more people than those of the counterinsurgents. The Irish Catholics may not have love the Brits, but they pretty much hated the IRA by the end. That's what established preconditions for a cease fire and a political settlement.

Stuart

Support for the IRA in the Nationalist community has always fluctuated, from the days in 69 when IRA-I Ran Away was scralled on walls along the Falls Road and other locations, throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's when many a Catholic was harmed or threatened because they had a simple disagreement with someone who happened to be connected to the IRA. Alot of people on both sides of the divide woke up to the fact that the paramilitaries operated like gangsters who benefited from maintaining the status quo. Still, for many Catholics prior to the Good Friday Agreement, the IRA was the only game in town.
Shlomo Stuart,

From what I can see of your posts you have fallen for the these two sides have always opposed/hated each other syndrom (a perfect example of which is the false notion that the Palestinians and Israelis have been in conflict for centuries)

Any good book on Irish history will show you that not only did the Protestants of Ireland support independence from Great Britain; but that they were leaders of many of the rebellions.

Irish Protestants were the leaders of the 1798, 1803 and 1848 rebellions. Irish Protestants were very active in the Easter Rebellion as you noted.

The reason that the six counties were separted from the Irish Free State had nothing to do with the wishes of the Irish Protestants, but everything to do with the British Government seeking ways to continue to control Ireland.

I would recommend that you read what William Butler Yeats, Lady Gregory, Sean O'Casey, Edmund John Millington Synge, William Wilde, William Carleton and Samuel Ferguson wrote on this issue (all Protestant Irish Nationalists). It will give you better insight.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon
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Any good book on Irish history will show you that not only did the Protestants of Ireland support independence from Great Britain; but that they were leaders of many of the rebellions.

I understand. Wolfe Tone, Parnell, and many other Irish revolutionaries since the 18th century were indeed Protestants--and many were members of the Anglo-Irish ascendancy. But they lived throughout the Island, and were mostly residents of the old English "Plantation" around Dublin. The Scots-Irish of Northern Ireland were recent transplants, and their militant Calvinism put them at odds not only with the Catholics but with the Anglicans as well. Their obstinate opposition to "popery" in all its forms, and their refusal to be ruled by a predominately Catholic government accounted for their resistance to union with the rest of Ireland.

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