I've been thinking quite a bit lately about what would have happened to the world if the Disciples had simply refused to follow the Great Commission.

They would probably have excused themselves by saying "It simply is not our spiritual tradition. We are Jews of a particular sect and must keep to our ways." No one would have been persecuted. We would have simply died out as a movement in one generation.

This temptation to inaction using these same excuses has always been popular and is present today. Nothing new about that.

St. Paul in Ephesians 6:11 advises us to "Put on the whole armour of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil". When you hear unfair criticism against you or against what happens on Aug. 6 make sure that you have your armour on. Some will take second hand information and spread it all over the metropolia to discredit these efforts. Some may even come to the meeting with the intention of destroying the work before it can get off the ground.

Anyone who has ever done an obedient work for Christ and His Church knows exactly what I'm talking about. Be prepared.

Jesus warned us that no wise person ever begins a building without making adequate plans and no one who is wise and expects to survive goes into battle without a battle plan. Part of the battle plan is to realize that some of the criticism that you will face is going to be inaccurate and unfair. Some of the criticism is based upon fear and jealousy. Some will be honest and true but will still hurt.

Don't let the criticisms of others be the motivating factor to your obedience. St. Paul wrote: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Some who will criticize are doing that and are trying to help you. Everyone, whether they know it or not, are working on their own salvation. It's just that they don't realize that by unfairly criticizing others they are striking a blow against it and not building toward heaven.

"Lay aside every weight of sin and press toward the mark of the high calling of Christ Jesus our Lord." We are not coming together to complain but to build. Just thank your critics and keep moving forward.

Dan L

I would suggest the following article by Avery Cardinal Dulles on "True and False Reform":
First Things Article [firstthings.com]

In it he discusses how reform is a mixture of holding to those venerable truths which we have always held while also being open to new movements and ideas. A true reform will, in no way, act contrary to what the Church has always taught but will seek to say it such that the ears of our contemporaries will hear it the better.

Mike,

What are you trying to say? How do you relate your article to Dan's post?

Joe

Joe,

I took as a general word of encouragement to press forward no matter what the obstacles but remain true to the ancient truths of the Church. It is a fine but clear line we must follow.

I know that Father Loya is receiving much criticism for his honest appeal for help. But he has expressed many times that movement is in support of our hierarchs who need encouragement to be brave in their leadership. None of us in this movement are interested in dismantling the Church but neither are we interested in whining and complaining off in the corner someplace. Changes desparately need to be made. The Holy Spirit is designing a movement clearing within the Church but free of the confines of "Standing" committees. Clearly we don't need simply to stand. We must move. Hence we are a movement.

Dan L

I was just trying to say that there are people who will be critical of new movements and reform from multiple locations in the Church. Some people will think it's way out of hand or smacks of anti-clericalism. Others will think it's too rigid and needs to go further.

Cardinal Dulles' article points out items *everyone* should keep in mind about reform in general so that everyone knows better how to critique an idea. To just blow off a new movement because it seems "different" and scary somehow is not reason enough to stagnate with this re-formation of the Church. To decide that the "old ways" just don't cut it anymore is not reason enough to dismiss them out of hand.

I dare say most of the Church's history post-V2 has either been one extreme or a severe reaction against the extreme. We've seen liberal theology creep into various people and groups in the Church (consider Voice of the Faithful or Rainbow Sash) and we've seen other people flip out over it (SSPX and the Lefebrvist schism). In various ways, they're both wrong because they didn't have an eye for many of the things Dulles points out about "True Reform".

There is a bit of Chesterton to quote here:

"If you hear a thing being accused of being too tall and too short, too red and too green, too bad in one way and too bad also in the opposite way, then you may be sure that it is very good."

Isn't that the truth.

Attempting to start something in this Church can only lead to good, if for no other reason than the fact it generates ENERGY.

We can easily see what 'standing' has done. To stand still is to die. Our ancestors in their own way were movers and shakers. They built churches, schools, choirs, communities. I don't believe they would have wanted us to just 'maintain' what they created here in this country. I know they wouldn't have wanted us to stand in place for 40 years!

I've heard more about Aug. 6th than I've ever heard filter out from any type of evangelization committee. Sorry folks. Its the truth.

We've had offices of evangelization or whatever for years now. Nothing is happening. Numbers are dropping. Churches are empty. Why criticize anyone who wants to turn that around?

I would hope Fr. Loya takes this criticism as a positive sign that he is doing what he is called to do.

Keep moving forward!

Sam

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
I've been thinking quite a bit lately about what would have happened to the world if the Disciples had simply refused to follow the Great Commission.

They would probably have excused themselves by saying "It simply is not our spiritual tradition. We are Jews of a particular sect and must keep to our ways." No one would have been persecuted. We would have simply died out as a movement in one generation.


Dan,

It's pretty clear in the Bible what the early church was thinking.

I suggest these for your reading:

1) 1 Corinthians 11:2: ". . . keep the traditions, as I delivered {them} to you."

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:15: ". . . hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walks disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

For the vast majority of our existence our church held true to those words. I am surprised that you would disagree.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, you write a lot of posts stating that our church doesn't believe in change and believes in inaction.

Are you unaware that our liturgy and customs have changed since our Ruthenian ancestors came to America at the beginning of last century? I know that you'll call it whining, but what has all of that change brought us? Show me the results.

One example is the change from Old Church Slavonic to vernacular. I know from previous posts that you think that we have always worshipped in the vernacular, but we haven't. Nobody was speaking Old Church Slavonic in Eastern Europe even two hundred years ago. That changed last century in this country and others.

Once upon a time there were a majority of the laity who had actually attended a vespers service, that's not so today.

Then there's communion rails, church architecture, confessional booths, turning our backs on our Slavic heritage etc. I could go on.

The reality is that all of the change of last century has failed miserably.

I applaud any effort to evangelize and grow our church and I hope that you are successful, yet I have to question your grasp of the history of the Greek Catholic Church. Holding to our traditions and evangelizing and sharing them to others is the path to growth, wouldn't you agree?

Michael Cerularius

Michael,

I find your posts very painful to read. There seems to be a complete disconnect between what I wrote and how you understood it. I will assume you worship in a dreadful place and wonder why you aren't putting forth an effort to change it. Your accusations seem totally irrational.

Just one simple question, though I could ask many but have little hope that your response would make much sense: "Tell me why Sts. Methodius and Cyril did not settle for Greek in the Slavic lands?" If you can answer that you will know the answers to all of your questions and your charges against me will disappear.

Dan L

Whatever about our good friend Dan, I certainly agree with that Michael!

Nick

Right you are, Sam. I'm not a priest so I can write what I d.... well please without serious repercussions. The point is, I love the mission and the beauty and the promise of the Church immensley. I desire to fulfill the Lord's calling upon my life with all my heart. Yet this Church is dying and many of us know why.

Standing Committees are designed not to move. We only need a handful of them. We have at least four to five times too many standing committees. Their very existence is clogging up or better "quenching" the Spirit. If we can't get them eliminated we can doing something that may be even better. We can ignore them. In fact if we don't ignore them we are doomed.

Whoever heard of a serious national Church with only 20,000 members when only a couple of decades ago we had many times that?

It used to be said of GM that "As GM goes so goes the nation." Now their stocks have been reduced to junk. The record we've established with standing committees is worse than GM's. GM needs a major shake up and even then its future is problematic. What do you think we need?

Father and Bishop John are facing opposition. If they will have courage they will give the Church a glorious gift and the Church will in turn give a glorious gift to the world. If they lose heart... I think you know.

Dan L

Nicholas,

It's sort of like asking if one agrees with mom and apple pie. Of course I agree with those Scriptures. Of course I'm concerned about proper liturgy. But I am not a liturgist. If someone has serious issues about the new translation (I miss the admonission "The doors, the doors, with wisdom be attentive") then let them come forth and speak them. Maybe come and suggest that at the August 6 meeting.

What is not acceptable is complaining endlessly about something the complainers have no intention to do anything about.

BTW I understand that Bishop Pataki is well beyond mandatory retirement age. Why is he not retired?

Speaking of complaints....

Did you know that he is the oldest serving Catholic diocesan bishop in the United States? What a survivor! You have to hand it to him.

Dan,

It's not surprising that all of the stuff I wrote about tradition would be painful for you to read.

Sts. Cyril and Methodius going from Greek to Slavonic resulted in millions of souls accepting Christianity. Show me the success of going from Church Slavonic to the vernacular.

Like a true modernist you want me to judge the intentions and not the results. When you can't defend the results you resort to name calling (whiners, complainers, wishing people shut up etc.)

You must have a cloudy web cam on me. In the past you have accused me of such things such as not reading the new translation that was handed to the clergy and now you think I worship at a dreadful place.

Neither is true. But one fact is that we have a fundamental difference in how we look at theology. I choose not to isolate myself to my own age and become ignorant of my spiritual heritage and roots. I dont't think that the Church ended in Acts 28 and did not reappear until the 20th century or so (give or take depending on what questions I get asked).

And finally I'll repeat what was in my so called "painful and irrational post".

Holding to our traditions and evangelizing and sharing them to others is the path to growth, wouldn't you agree?


Michael Cerularius

Are you coming Aug. 6?

Dan L

was this post for me?

if it was here is my response:

My wife is due with our second child towards the end of July. (that could mean tomorrow or early August). Depending on what happens with that I will make every effort to get there from the Cleveland area.

I'm sure you're eager to meet me.

Michael Cerularius

Congratulations.

My impatience with many of your posts is an impatience with shadow boxing. It does not interest me. If we are to fight let it be over something real. Otherwise, I'd rather fight evil rather than fight just to fight.

Dan L

I'm not quite getting the connection here. The success of the first can't becompared to the success of the second in terms of language only. The Slavs weren't Christian. We are opening Byz. Catholicism to a Christian English speaking country.

Cyril and Methodius brought the Faith to the Slavic people in their own tongue and converted millions. We brought the Faith to the US and basically haven't 'converted' more than a few hundred. Rather the opposite has happened and many of our own have gone elsewhere, to become more American, etc.
To remain totally with Church Slavonic would surely mean the end for us, IMHO. We are already viewed as a small, closed ethnic group. In that small closed ethnic group our 'own' people don't understand, were never really taught and have no desire to learn as a rule. Can we expect Church Slavonic to be any kind of a drawing card for potential converts? We'd be better off learning Espanol.

Sam

Sam,

Indeed you are correct. I doubt that I could have talked my wife into converting if we had been forced to not only learn an entire new liturgy but also learn to sound out a language we could not understand. I'm glad we sing some Slovanic each DL but I'm glad that we use English.

God has called us not to enforce the phonetics of Greek or Latin upon a people who know nothing of these languages. He has taught us from the beginning to teach in the Vernacular. Our anscestors fought a great battle through the work of Sts. Cyril and Methodius to insure that we use the vernacular. Patriarch Maximos IV Saigh had to refight that same battle in the 1960s to insure that we could use the vernacular. Why should we surrender the field now? We've won.

Now let us take the best light we have and reflect it into a world of darkness that others may come to know the fullness of Christ.

Dan Lauffer

A bishop is facing opposition for attempting to revitalize his own flock.
Thanks for my laugh of the day. He must KNOW he's doing something right!


Yes- lets just stop all of this August 6th business right now. We don't need this. We're fine just the way we are. why do we need to change the way we've always done things?

PA and NJ:
Do a little experiment in your parishes. Look at the people in your pews this Sunday. Think about their ages. Jump ahead 10 or 15 years. Now subtract them from the total. Whats left?
How many funerals do you average in a year? How many baptisms? Is it 10 to 1? Do the math.

Here is another math problem:
You have 75 families in your parish. Your church's electric bill is $XXXX. In ten years, doing the math above, your church will have 30-40 families. How much more will YOU have to pay to keep the lights on on Sunday? Insert "oil" in place of "electric". Calculate in costs of heating a rectory, parish hall, cemetery. Add salary/sustenance/ auto insurance, health insurance for your priest. Add insurance bills for your properties. Does the average $2 to $10 dollars you put in your envelope each week do anything to make a dent in these bills?

It is not all about the $$$, but when it comes right down to it- if you can't afford to keep your church you won't have one. Ten years goes by fast.

Don't criticize a bishop for trying to do something positive to keep us alive. Its better than a bishop who does nothing but wait it out to sell it off.


Sam

I have said it before, and will say it again. Getting behind Bishop John and supporting him will be one of the best things you can do for the future health of our church. He's trying to do something positive. If you don't support him, then "get thee behind him, Satan."

A hearty Byzantine Catholic "AMEN" to that!!!

BTW The hearty amen is another Catholic/Orthodox Tradition we're recapturing.


CDL